Dan Abrams Discusses The Difficulties In Charging Rutgers Webcam Case As A ‘Hate Crime’

by Jon Bershad | 1:27 pm, October 1st, 2010

» 36 comments

As more facts in the sad case of Rutgers freshman Tyler Clementi, who committed suicide after his roommate, Dharun Ravi, broadcasted secretly filmed video of him engaged in gay sex over the internet, surface, many questions have arisen. While discussions have flared about the lack of privacy in a digital age, others have focussed on the tough debate over whether or not the state of New Jersey can or should charge Ravi or his accomplice Molly Wei with a hate crime. This morning, NBC’s Chief Legal Analyst and Mediaite founder Dan Abrams discussed the case on Today.

Right now it looks like Ravi and Wei will receive charges of invasion of privacy as well as distributing videos taken without consent. Abrams argued that, to bring any more charges, the state will have to prove that this was more than just a prank with the proof possibly coming from the online postings of both Ravi and Clementi.

“They’re going to need more than just the [Twitter post] that we just read about him, quote, being a gay — about making out. They’re going to need to know that the reason that he did it, that his intent here was to intimidate him based on sexual orientation. That’s going to be tough legally in a case like this. A lot of people are going to say, ‘Wait a second, what do you mean it’s going to be tough? Look at the facts of what happened.’ The facts are one thing, but as a legal matter, you’re going to have to show the intent of the person who was doing it.”

This whole situation is incredibly sad yet indicative of any number of important issues of the day. It will be interesting to see where things go from here.

Dan Abrams, Dharun Ravi, hate crime, Molly Wei, The Today Show, Tyler Clementi

Moderate

Ravi and his accomplice Molly Wei can not be charged with a hate crime, if they were Smith and Jones then fry their asses.

Seriously this is a joke that went way too far, I fear this will generate laws even worse than the hate crime laws.
sarainitaly

He wasn’t having “sex”. Both the guy who filmed it, and the kid who committed suicide (on a chat board) said he was “making out” with another guy. I think it is important to get this right – one for his level of exposure and mortification and also, if he wasn’t engaging in sex, (perhaps even a virgin) it isn’t nice to spread something that isn’t true. Some reports and Mediaite keep saying he was having sex, but Clemente and Ravi say he was just “making out”. Which is it?

This was a comment I made in an older thread about Sanchez:
That aside – it is a horrible thing to do, and if I were his parents, I would sue the two who filmed him, and posted it on the internet. Gay or not, that is a terrible invasion of privacy. I’m not sure if this qualifies as a hate crime – it depends on whether he intentionally did this because he was gay, or if he would have filmed him whether he was with a girl or boy? (I read an article elsewhere that Ravi said it wasn’t because he was gay, don’t know if that is true or not.)

But, after reading these two stories, I am a little less sure that they would win in a lawsuit.
http://www.slate.com/id/2269301/
http://gawker.com/5651659/is-this-webcam-spying-victim-tyler-clementis-last-call-for-help

Clemente posted nude photos of himself online, seemed to be not all that outraged about it, and discussed it in an online chat forum. (even masturbating online at cam4.com ?) So I think they would have a hard time winning against a strong defense team… :OS

It is a horrible story, and a tragic ending. But after reading a lot more about this, I am not as sure as I was about culpability. His own words online – he doesn’t seem to be that distressed. Although he must have been, he committed suicide…. On the one hand he was totally violated by his roommate broadcasting him in the privacy of his own room. On the other, he also posted nude images, and participated in a type of voyeurism online. Granted he was in control when he did it himself.

Anyone should be outraged that their privacy should be violated in this manner. (Like Erin from ESPN).

“It would be nice to get him in trouble…but idk if I have enough to get him in trouble.” ~ Clementi
Well, Ravi’s definitely in trouble now.

“aside from being an asshole from time to time, he was a pretty decent roommate.” ~Clementi
This might make a bullying charge difficult to prove…?

Was this kid *bullied*? I’m not sure. He was definitely harassed and laws were broken. But I’m not sure bullying applies? However, It is disgusting what they did. I would be mortified.
sarainitaly

Moderate said:
Seriously this is a joke that went way too far, I fear this will generate laws even worse than the hate crime laws.

It may have been a joke, but I would be mortified if someone filmed me without my knowledge, and broadcast it over the internet. If I looked great, and was just kissing someone, not so mortified. But if I was having sex, or dressing, or something, I would be completely mortified and feel extremely violated. This is wrong, wrong, wrong.
paulmdoro

Yeah it’s pretty complicated. Ravi did tweet about having just found out his roommate was gay, and he definitely recorded it to be cruel, but that doesn’t automatically make it a hate crime. Would he have recorded it if Clementi was getting in on with a girl? Who knows? Also, posting nude pictures of yourself online doesn’t mean you give up your privacy rights nor does it make recording a private sexual act OK. This is the 4th gay teenager to commit suicide in September. Homophobia is alive and well in this country. Very tragic.
paulmdoro

Moderate said:
Ravi and his accomplice Molly Wei can not be charged with a hate crime, if they were Smith and Jones then fry their asses.

Seriously this is a joke that went way too far, I fear this will generate laws even worse than the hate crime laws.

It takes a really twisted mind to think of this as a joke gone too far.
paulmdoro

Also, this story from the LA Times says it was sex, not kissing, for what it’s worth. The phrasing: “after images of him having sex with another man were broadcast on the Internet.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-rutgers-suicide-20101001,0,2307696.story
Moderate

To commit suicide over something like that means the guy already had mental issues. I would assume that being born with the wrong sex organs would cause a lot of mental issues.
sarainitaly

paulmdoro said:
Also, posting nude pictures of yourself online doesn’t mean you give up your privacy rights nor does it make recording a private sexual act OK

I am not saying it does, I am just thinking what might happen if it went to trial, and prosecution said he was embarrassed for having been on the internet. Defense might argue he was posting nude pics of himself on the internet, (and videos of him engaging in self lovin’?) and try to make a case that it wasn’t about being *exposed* on the internet since he was exposing himself, but that it had to do with something else, entirely…
right-is-wrong

sarainitaly said:
It may have been a joke, but I would be mortified if someone filmed me without my knowledge, and broadcast it over the internet. If I looked great, and was just kissing someone, not so mortified. But if I was having sex, or dressing, or something, I would be completely mortified and feel extremely violated. This is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Thank you sara for both posts.
Very grounded, and I believe the way most of us feel.
paulmdoro

Moderate said:
To commit suicide over something like that means the guy already had mental issues. I would assume that being born with the wrong sex organs would cause a lot of mental issues.

What disgusting and moronic statements. Ugh. You’re despicable. I imagine you are more than familiar with mental issues. Moderate my ass. More like extremist homophobic hatemonger with no morals.
paulmdoro

sarainitaly said:
I am not saying it does, I am just thinking what might happen if it went to trial, and prosecution said he was embarrassed for having been on the internet. Defense might argue he was posting nude pics of himself on the internet, (and videos of him engaging in self lovin’?) and try to make a case that it wasn’t about being *exposed* on the internet since he was exposing himself, but that it had to do with something else, entirely…

Yes that’s true. Hate crimes are notoriously hard to prove. I do hope they prosecute these two to the fullest extent of the law.
Arthur (Not a Political Comic)

I don’t think you can say it was a hate crime. I mean, the result was not to have the guy kill himself, or even hurt himself physically. Though it does hurt on an emotional level. I agree with Sarah that the parents should sue, without a doubt. The question is whether then can it be considered involuntary manslaughter (I don’t know much about law), but I think hate crime or murder can’t be used. Invasion of privacy, yes. I think the thing that actually scares me is that this will actually increase the level of suicides from bullying. The media coverage is important, because it does show bullying as a very real problem (FU, Rick Sanchez), and I don’t want the kids being bullied to think that the only way to get back at their bullies is by killing themselves so that the media tears them apart and they go to jail, etc. I think we need to do something to rein this very real problem in. It’s only going to get worse.
Jackie_Treehorn

paulmdoro said:
What disgusting and moronic statements. Ugh. You’re despicable. I imagine you are more than familiar with mental issues. Moderate my ass. More like extremist homophobic hatemonger with no morals.

He’s the most hateful homophobe on this site. We’ve come to accept this from Moderate the idiot.
sarainitaly

paulmdoro said:
Also, this story from the LA Times says it was sex, not kissing, for what it’s worth. The phrasing: “after images of him having sex with another man were broadcast on the Internet.”

I read many new stories, initially, that is was a sexual encounter. I think from there it was picked up as sex. But like I said, Clemente wrote on that gay web site that it was making out. And so did Ravi. Clemente even wrote about it not being *pornographic* so he didn’t know how much trouble Ravi could get into, since it was just kissing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/30/spaulding.rutgers.suicide/index.html – making out

I think the media owes it to Clemente to get it right, either way.
http://www.anonymousfinch.com AnonymousFinch

My hearts aches over this story. That poor boy. What was done to him was terribly, terribly wrong, but it certainly was worth ending his life over. What a tragedy!
notsofast

What that stupid roommate did was deplorable but since the creation of the internet and PC cams , all kinds of private behavior has been broadcast. I’m sure immature Freshmen all over the USA think broadcasting such things as someone having sex is a joke or is funny, regardless of a person’s sexual orientation; Christ, where do you think the prank of a “circle jerk” was first conceived?

What is more baffling is how the victim reacted. Sure, what ya do sexually is nothing you want shown on internet but there are so many far worse things that have been shown on the net.

We had a girl commit suicide because her boyfriend emailed her “sexting” pic to others in her HS.

With the advent of the 24/7 Cycloptic internet , young people need to learn that there are dangers with what you do with this information and how it can harm others; but they also need to understand that if something like this does happen, it’s not the end of the world, nor should it be the end of their lives.
paulmdoro

notsofast said:

With the advent of the 24/7 Cycloptic internet , young people need to learn that there are dangers with what you do with this information and how it can harm others; but they also need to understand that if something like this does happen, it’s not the end of the world, nor should it be the end of their lives.

Very well-said.
paulmdoro

sarainitaly said:
I read many new stories, initially, that is was a sexual encounter. I think from there it was picked up as sex. But like I said, Clemente wrote on that gay web site that it was making out. And so did Ravi. Clemente even wrote about it not being *pornographic* so he didn’t know how much trouble Ravi could get into, since it was just kissing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/30/spaulding.rutgers.suicide/index.html – making out

I think the media owes it to Clemente to get it right, either way.

Didn’t the recording happen more than once? The first time they were making out, so he did it again to see what would happen? I thought there was more than one incident.
paulmdoro

Indeed there were separate incidents.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1316911/Tyler-Clementi-suicide-Dharun-Ravi-tweeted-homosexuality-start.html
sarainitaly

no, he found out about the first incident. The roommate tried a second time, but Clemente knew beforehand because of Ravi’s tweet. Clemente turned the camera off. Read those links I posted upthread. They are very informative.

notsofast said:

With the advent of the 24/7 Cycloptic internet , young people need to learn that there are dangers with what you do with this information and how it can harm others; but they also need to understand that if something like this does happen, it’s not the end of the world, nor should it be the end of their lives.

paulmdoro says:
Very well-said.

Agreed.
sarainitaly

paulmdoro said:
Indeed there were separate incidents.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1316911/Tyler-Clementi-suicide-Dharun-Ravi-tweeted-homosexuality-start.html

I suggest reading the links, like I said. Sounds like Daily Mail is not getting it right.
paulmdoro

sarainitaly said:
no, he found out about the first incident. The roommate tried a second time, but Clemente knew beforehand because of Ravi’s tweet. Clemente turned the camera off. Read those links I posted upthread. They are very informative.

notsofast said:

With the advent of the 24/7 Cycloptic internet , young people need to learn that there are dangers with what you do with this information and how it can harm others; but they also need to understand that if something like this does happen, it’s not the end of the world, nor should it be the end of their lives.

paulmdoro says:
Very well-said.

Agreed.

Oh OK I see now. You’re right.
paulmdoro

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/college-life/tyler-clementi-and-all-of-the.html

Specifically says “having sex.”
Sean68

Well we live in a country with a Civil Rights Division of the Justive Department that explicitly disregards thepthe civil rights of white people, and a media that doesn’t much care about that fact so there you go. Maybe it’s the nation we deserve. I don’t know that we deserve any better.
paulmdoro

Sean68 said:
Well we live in a country with a Civil Rights Division of the Justive Department that explicitly disregards thepthe civil rights of white people, and a media that doesn’t much care about that fact so there you go. Maybe it’s the nation we deserve. I don’t know that we deserve any better.

What does this have to do with the Clementi story?
sarainitaly

yes, but, at least according to Clemente, the media keep getting it wrong, because he said he was making out with a dude….

http://gawker.com/5651659/is-this-webcam-spying-victim-tyler-clementis-last-call-for-help

Unless someone actually saw the tape, I think the media took *sexual encounter* and it has now become *sex*.

I just want them to get it right.
sarainitaly

And I keep getting his last name wrong – my bad. Clementi.
paulmdoro

sarainitaly said:
yes, but, at least according to Clemente, the media keep getting it wrong, because he said he was making out with a dude….

http://gawker.com/5651659/is-this-webcam-spying-victim-tyler-clementis-last-call-for-help

Unless someone actually saw the tape, I think the media took *sexual encounter* and it has now become *sex*.

I just want them to get it right.

Yeah that could be.
JimW

Thank God the NYT published photographs of Ravi and Mai. They’re getting just a small taste of the horror they put Tyler Clementi through. I would also like point out that Tyler was probably very thrilled to be at Rutgers, excited to be in the student orchestra, hoping to do well to please his parents, probably had high expectations of enjoying his studies and Ravi and Mai took all that away. They purposely humiliated him. They purposely held him up to ridicule. They were hoping to make a fool out of him in front of the entire campus population. And people are saying that it was just a “prank.” If I, as a prank, shoot a gun into the air and the bullet lands in the middle of someone’s heart, do you think I shouldn’t be responsible for their death?
Patrick Henry

paulmdoro said:
This is the 4th gay teenager to commit suicide in September. Homophobia is alive and well in this country. Very tragic.

Yes, it is tragic. I heard earlier on the news that 9 teenagers had committed suicide in the last month due to bullying.
Patrick Henry

notsofast said:
With the advent of the 24/7 Cycloptic internet , young people need to learn that there are dangers with what you do with this information and how it can harm others; but they also need to understand that if something like this does happen, it’s not the end of the world, nor should it be the end of their lives.

Notso, even though it might seem like it’s not the end of the world to an adult, teens might see it very different. I think most teens often think if something has gone wrong or seems bad, it will be that way forever. They don’t have the maturity to know that time heals most things. With all the pressures they face in figuring out who they are, how to fit in, dealing with raging hormones, they don’t always use their heads wisely.
terry_jones

Think about the roommate perspective your in College trying to study while your roommate is taking it in the ass or he playing his violin all night why getting sucked off. I would be pissed off too. When I was in College I got video taped having sex with a transvestite hooker and you don’t see me crying about it and I live in Texas where they hang you for that stuff. Now when I pickup a hooker I make sure there are no cameras around
Patrick Henry

terry_jones said:
Think about the roommate perspective your in College trying to study while your roommate is taking it in the ass or he playing his violin all night why getting sucked off. I would be pissed off too. When I was in College I got video taped having sex with a transvestite hooker and you don’t see me crying about it and I live in Texas where they hang you for that stuff. Now when I pickup a hooker I make sure there are no cameras around

Only thing I can say is I hope you have left Texas.
writer

Eddie Murphy, is that you?
right-is-wrong

sarainitaly said:

paulmdoro said:

Arthur (Not a Political Comic) said:

notsofast said:
What

Patrick Henry said:
Yes, it is tragic. I heard earlier on the news that 9 teenagers had committed suicide in the last month due to bullying.

What a warming way to start a Saturday.
Civil discourse (and agreement)between both sides.
Nachi

Dan is correct. None-the-less, Murcuhns enjoy leading anonymous, unexamined lives that are not really WORTH living. Ugly, unempathetic Repugs destroy the Nation’s fibre.