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Franklin Graham Won’t Tell O’Reilly Whether ‘Holocaust Jews’ Went To Heaven

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by Frances Martel | 9:14 pm, April 28th, 2011

» 127 comments

Rev. Franklin Graham has somehow become a media celebrity on the back of his doubts that President Obama is truly Christian. Graham visited Bill O’Reilly today to confirm his distaste for the President, but the conversation took a bizarre term when O’Reilly decided to grill Graham on Heaven, Hell, and the admission process for each, particularly for Holocaust victims and children.

“I disagree with a lot of the policies… as a citizen,” Rev. Graham noted of the Obama administration, repeating several times that he believed that, as a nation, “we are addicted to spending,” and that, despite believing that charity was important, “I think a lot of the spending is more than helping the poor.” O’Reilly took his opinions at face value, but failed to question them too heavily. Instead, he went to the Reverend’s bread and butter: religion.

O’Reilly then switched gears completely to the spiritual, asking about recent comments by another preacher that the concept of Hell completely defies the belief in a loving and forgiving God. Those who believe so, according to Rev. Graham, are “heretics,” as the Bible is “very clear” on the existence of Hell. “What about people who don’t know the Bible?” O’Reilly asked, using the “really stark” example of Jews who died in the Holocaust without believing in Jesus Christ. “No one will have an excuse when he stands before God,” Rev. Graham responded, without really noting whether said victims, particularly children, would be given a pass for not believing specifically in Jesus. “All I can tell you is what is in this book, the Bible,” he noted, agreeing with O’Reilly that God was “just.” O’Reilly persisted, however, until Rev. Graham just dismissed the argument– “forget the children of the Holocaust”– and directed him to the text of the Bible once again.

The question may put Graham’s followers on the defensive– after all, asking about the afterlife status of a group of people in the middle of a debate on the merits of the current executive administration is not exactly O’Reilly’s typical line of attack. In fact, one inclined to overlook the fact that Graham’s belief system may view victims of such an atrocious historical event as potentially too guilt-ridden to enter Heaven would also be inclined to perceive the question as an example of left-wing media bias. In other words, the reason one would ask about the Holocaust in an interview about President Obama, one could argue, is the same reason one would ask about racist email forwards in an interview about media bias: to smear the target with a completely unrelated subject. This theory, of course, would require the liberal smear merchant to be… bastion of conservative journalism Bill O’Reilly, and one must believe religious conservatives has yet to move so far to the right that O’Reilly is now too far left.

The discussion via Fox News below:

barack obama, Bill O'Reilly, fox news, Franklin Graham, Heaven, Hell, Holocaust, O'Reilly Factor, Religion

The Lantern of Truth

O’Reilly is obtuse too much these days . What a dumb question .
CaptainAmerica

Unless they weer saved… then why would O Reilly expect them to go to Heaven?
juan

Err- Frances,

Do you know if they did?
Newsjunky

None of this should come as a surprise coming from a far-right wing evangelical. They’re the creepiest of the creepy. Hey Graham… you are right at home with the likes of Trump, Palin, Gingrich, Humpabee, Bachmann and all the others.
cjd ohio 1

Now i now why i dont follow a organized religion
Jaurez

The Lantern of Truth said:
O’Reilly is obtuse too much these days . What a dumb question .

O’Reilly is losing his marbles. Fast.
Dsiscokid

Glackin said:
If one must accept as their Savior the Deity you believe in, what of those who never heard the word?
Those who lived before the Savior? On the other side of the world?
How can a just and loving God condemn those who were never given his word?

Mark 16:15 (King James Version)
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

John 17:17-20
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jaurez

juan said:
Err- Frances,

Do you know if they did?

Good question.
Jaurez

Glacky, enjoy the schooling you’re about to get. ;)
Dsiscokid

cjd ohio 1 said:
Now i now why i dont follow a organized religion

I agree. Don’t follow “organized religion”. Follow The Lord Jesus Christ!

Psalm 19:7-9 (King James Version)
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

Luke 18:10-16
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Luke 24:25-27
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Dsiscokid

I won’t post it all here, but if anyone is interested read Romans Ch.1, 2, and 3 when you have a moment……
cjd ohio 1

dsiscokid, i believe in God, and heaven and Hell, but i cant judge who goes where, just because of the religion they follow. And that is the reason i dont follow one, some christians say that if you dont take jesus as your savior you are shit out of luck, muslims with allah, jews dont know, but i think God is more than that
Dsiscokid

Dsiscokid said:
I won’t post it all here, but if anyone is interested read Romans Ch.1, 2, and 3 when you have a moment……

….and Hebrews Ch. 11
Tmccarthiera

Dsiscokid said:
Utterly meaningles quotes from the bible.

Nothing you just quoted answered his question. Native-Americans lived on this land for thousands of years without contact from Europe, Africa or Asia. They had no concept of Heaven or Hell, or of Christ. Therefore, according to the Book of Revelation, they were “pagans” and will burn in eternal hell fire.

Your religion is retarded. Sorry. There is no such as God or heaven or hell. You believe in them solely because you are afraid of the imaginary consequences of not believing (going to hell).
Ardiva

I believe that Bill asked a reasonable question regarding the holocaust victims. Franklin couldn’t give a concrete answer. His bad.
Dsiscokid

cjd ohio 1 said:
i think God is more than that

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I used to feel the same way. What God really conviced me with were the O.T. prophesies. Genesis 3, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, to name a few, were written hundreds (some a thousand) years before Jesus came to Earth.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/glenn-beck-explains-how-the-unions-are-using-teachers-firefighters-and-co ImNotBlue

Any word for resident religious scholar, Royal King? We know he follows “the word of the church” when it comes to attacking and insulting Mormons… so how does he feel about Graham’s word?

I’ll answer the question, as Jew… I don’t care. If I don’t believe in the “Hell” that Graham describes, or follow the specific teachings that would lead him to the conclusion that those who don’t follow him “go to Hell,” why would I care? There are far more important things for me to worry about than what Graham thinks will happen to me after I die. For now, I’ll focus on what’s going to happen while I’m alive.

As for O’Reilly’s question… I dunno, it seemed to follow a fair line of questioning. Graham is a spiritual leader, he should be able to answer these questions… especially since it went to the heart of what he believes.
Dsiscokid

Tmccarthiera said:
There is no such as God or heaven or hell

Psalm 14
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

….don’t feel bad, though. I was a fool at one time myself….
cjd ohio 1

Dsiscokid said:
John 5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Acts 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. I used to feel the same way. What God really conviced me with were the O.T. prophesies. Genesis 3, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, to name a few, were written hundreds (some a thousand) years before Jesus came to Earth.

ImNotBlue said:
Any word for resident religious scholar, Royal King? We know he follows “the word of the church” when it comes to attacking and insulting Mormons… so how does he feel about Graham’s word? I’ll answer the question, as Jew… I don’t care. If I don’t believe in the “Hell” that Graham describes, or follow the specific teachings that would lead him to the conclusion that those who don’t follow him “go to Hell,” why would I care? There are far more important things for me to worry about than what Graham thinks will happen to me after I die. For now, I’ll focus on what’s going to happen while I’m alive. As for O’Reilly’s question… I dunno, it seemed to follow a fair line of questioning. Graham is a spiritual leader, he should be able to answer these questions… especially since it went to the heart of what he believes.

see i was raised catholic, but i respect what others believe and i wont say what or who follows what God wants because i dont know, i try to live a good life, but the favorite part of the bible is, ye without sin cast the first stone, there will never be a stone in my hand
BeckFinallyDemoted

Another brilliant discussion of religion and God on Fox News.
It will go into the annuls of history along with…

“Not saying God is, you know, causing earthquakes…not not saying that, either,” Whether you call it Gaia, or whether you call it Jesus, there’s a message being sent and that is, ‘hey, you know that stuff we’re doing? Not really working out real well.’ Maybe we should stop doing some of it.” –Glenn Beck

“Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can’t explain that. You can’t explain why the tide goes in.” –Bill O’Reilly

_______________________________________________________________
CAUTION: BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR THESE EX-BIRTHERS, THEY ARE ARMED AND IGNORANT…

Dem4Ever, The Lantern of Truth, juan, Arkansas Steve, murf, Jaurez
WCinWI, Barack Must Go, NOBAMA, Colorado_Conservative, gordonbloyershow
TeaPartyPatriot, notsofast, Severian, Dronetek, TfT, mitchflorida, skoorbekim
mdanielson, Harry Flashman, OxyCon and NORBIT
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/glenn-beck-explains-how-the-unions-are-using-teachers-firefighters-and-co ImNotBlue

cjd ohio 1 said:
see i was raised catholic, but i respect what others believe and i wont say what or who follows what God wants because i dont know, i try to live a good life, but the favorite part of the bible is, ye without sin cast the first stone, there will never be a stone in my hand

I agree! I don’t take the “you’re going to Hell” as an insult… it’s just part of the belief, which boils down to “I think I’m right, and think everyone else is wrong.” And while that sounds harsh, if a religious person didn’t think they were “right,” why would they keep on doing what they were doing in the first place?
Dsiscokid

Glackin said:
WHAT does your faith say about those who may have led a moral life, but never heard of the carpenter from Galilee?

John 6:37 (KJB)
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

as for man’s own “moral life” in his own eye’s…

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

All I have, or need, is God’s Word to go by….
Alice67

Let the public shaming continue!
cjd ohio 1

ImNotBlue said:
I agree! I don’t take the “you’re going to Hell” as an insult… it’s just part of the belief, which boils down to “I think I’m right, and think everyone else is wrong.” And while that sounds harsh, if a religious person didn’t think they were “right,” why would they keep on doing what they were doing in the first place?

true, God can judge, not me, myself i dont think God is that petty, whats in your heart and your soul is what matters, i will not choose what religion is better than the other
Alice67

Glackin said:
WHAT does your faith say about those who may have led a moral life, but never heard of the carpenter from Galilee?

This is the question I asked myself that caused me to leave the Catholic Church at 17.
Dsiscokid

cjd ohio 1, ImNotBlue, and everyone else……

Matthew 19:25-30 (KJB)
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Verse 26 says, “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” God is the ultimate Judge of any and all of us. He will have the final say in all of our lives; what did we do with Jesus Christ? (did we accept His Son by faith or did we reject Him?), what were our motives? Jesus was and is the Lamb of God who paid mankind’s sin debt, once and for all (see Romans Ch. 5 and Hebrews for more information)

God Bless and Jesus Saves!
BeckFinallyDemoted

I think Bill missed the real question…

Can you take your dog to heaven and if you can do you have to clean up after him?

_______________________________________________________________
CAUTION: BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR THESE EX-BIRTHERS, THEY ARE ARMED AND IGNORANT…

Dem4Ever, The Lantern of Truth, juan, Arkansas Steve, murf, Jaurez
WCinWI, Barack Must Go, NOBAMA, Colorado_Conservative, gordonbloyershow
TeaPartyPatriot, notsofast, Severian, Dronetek, TfT, mitchflorida, skoorbekim
mdanielson, Harry Flashman, OxyCon and NORBIT
edisciple

Most people who argue about Hell or existence of Hell are non-believers of Hell or just bring up the subject to score points, so why care to debate the subject you don’t even believe in. You don’t believe it, dismiss it. It’s akin to debating someone to not like Obama, when one is leftist kool-aid drinker. Ludicrous! As for O’Reily, he is an opportunist who tries to pass off as a conservative. The same can be said of Scarborough. True conservatives can see right through these bozos!
Dsiscokid

Glackin said:
So, removing your padding, (or justification, if you will), your “God” condemns to your “Hell” all who never heard his word?Pretty damned petulant deity.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Alice67

edisciple said:
Most people who argue about Hell or existence of Hell are non-believers of Hell or just bring up the subject to score points, so why care to debate the subject you don’t even believe in. You don’t believe it, dismiss it. It’s akin to debating someone to not like Obama, when one is leftist kool-aid drinker. Ludicrous! As for O’Reily, he is an opportunist who tries to pass off as a conservative. The same can be said of Scarborough. True conservatives can see right through these bozos!

Sounds to me like a true conservative thinks everyone who doesn’t believe in their God the way they do are going to rot in hell. Kind of the way they do politics too.
Greg

Accept the teachings of prophet Zoroaster or tremble in fear for your failure…tremble!
Alice67

Dsiscokid said:
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

No one is going to have a conversation with a bunch of bible quotes.
michiganruth

Frances: you left out O’Reilly’s comment when Franklin said “let’s forget about” the children who died in the Holocaust–he responded instantly, “I can’t.” I thought that was pretty cool.

I watched this on TV and thought Franklin was reprehensible. can’t wait to hear his pseudo-apology tomorrow about how he was misinterpreted. O’Reilly will call him on that too.
Pablo

Glackin said:
WHAT does your faith say about those who may have led a moral life, but never heard of the carpenter from Galilee?

Someone should ask devout Christian Barack Obama that question. He’s pretty much the Second Coming, so he probably knows for sure.
Alice67

Pablo said:
Someone should ask devout Christian Barack Obama that question. He’s pretty much the Second Coming, so he probably knows for sure.

Obsess much?
Greg

Pablo said:
Someone should ask devout Christian Barack Obama that question. He’s pretty much the Second Coming, so he probably knows for sure.

ZING!!!!… You nailed Obama on that one… right onto the cross you erected. Great job!
Pablo

Alice67 said:
Sounds to me like a true conservative thinks everyone who doesn’t believe in their God the way they do are going to rot in hell. Kind of the way they do politics too.

It sounds to me like you’re not very bright.
Pablo

Alice67 said:
Obsess much?

This much!
Greg

Pablo said:
This much!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhMepzqJvIw
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/glenn-beck-explains-how-the-unions-are-using-teachers-firefighters-and-co ImNotBlue

Glackin said:
Doesn’t that fall under violation of the 1st Commandment? Palin surely qualifies as a “Strange God”.

Sexist.
Pablo

Glackin said:
Want to try? Lead, follow, or get the F#CK out of the way.

That’s above my pay grade.
Greg

Glackin said:
Doesn’t that fall under violation of the 1st Commandment? Palin surely qualifies as a “Strange God”.

The Confederate fundamentalists are happy to canonize their leaders.
Pablo

Greg said:
The Confederate fundamentalists are happy to canonize their leaders.

Democrats love Sarah Palin? I did not know that. But I think their adoration may be misplaced. She’s more of a Lincoln gal.
Greg

Pablo said:
Democrats love Sarah Palin? I did not know that. But I think their adoration may be misplaced. She’s more of a Lincoln gal.

You are bright enough to understand my comment and deliver a less ham-fisted response.
felixw

Proposed headline: “Mediaite Demands Information on Who’s in Heaven”
http://cbcf.groupsite.com Miss Capri

Gah, this is stupid! The fact is, no one knows who goes where when they die. end of frickin’ story!
Pablo

Greg said:
You are bright enough to understand my comment and deliver a less ham-fisted response.

If only you were bright enough to understand that of which you speak. If you’re going to make it that easy, I don’t see why I ought to work at it.
Skippy

As mAnn Coulter put it:

Jews need to be perfected

Yes, Billdo. Go and ask mAnny the same question.
Jaurez

Alice67 said:
Obsess much?

Nary an original thought.
Jaurez

Skippy said:
As mAnn Coulter put it:

Yes, Billdo. Go and ask mAnny the same question.

How progressive of you.
Pablo

Glackin said:
You do mean George Lincoln Rockwell, right?

No, I mean the Republican President, genius. You a Rockwell fan, Joey?
illusive man

If there is a God and heaven, i’m sure God would make room for his chosen people.
The rev is an idiot to think otherwise.
Jaurez

Glackin said:
She sounds more like the 20th Century version.
All that “real” American bushwa that BMG is always spewing.

How ya doin, “real” American. Hey, skippy wants your e-mail addy. ;)
Jaurez

Hit a nerve?
Pablo

Glackin said:
She sounds more like the 20th Century version.

How’s that, Joey? Or is that just the best half assed rejoinder you can manage?
Alice67

Jaurez said:
Nary an original thought.

Points for being willing to admit it.
A.R.

o’reilly kind of exposed this fraud…man of the cloth or politic hack?
Alice67

illusive man said:
If there is a God and heaven, i’m sure God would make room for his chosen people.
The rev is an idiot to think otherwise.

So what about Buddhists and Hindus? Muslims?
Jaurez

Alice67 said:
Points for being willing to admit it.

That means you have zero points, then. Typical parrot.
Jaurez

Glackin said:
Each is entitled to the afterlife they envision, if they live by the tenets of their faith.
And I am in no position to advise or instruct anyone.

After claiming your mother was drafted and said you saw the documents, I’d have to agree with ya. You’re in no position to instruct.
Alice67

Thank God people like this are going the way of the dinosaur. Just another carnival barker. Good for you O’Reilly!
Alice67

Glackin said:
Each is entitled to the afterlife they envision, if they live by the tenets of their faith.
And I am in no position to advise or instruct anyone.

To this day I have no idea why I felt such a strong connection to Gandhi since I was only 3 years old when he died. But he was my reason for walking away from Catholicism as a teen. There was no way I could follow a religion that would exclude him from “heaven”. And I was devout as a child.
Jaurez

Obama Approval at All-time Low for Second Week…
Jaurez

Mr. Obama’s hostility to openness drives the public’s curiosity about the most basic facts of his life. For example, he has refused to release his college and law-school transcripts, information recent presidential candidates have openly shown the public despite some embarrassment over decades-old bad grades. What is there for this president to hide? Maybe he flunked government classes or got busted for dope. He has openly discussed his past drug use, but is there more to it? Secrecy breeds speculation.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/27/birth-certificate-isnt-obamas-only-secret/
Barack Must Go

That exchange was astounding to anyone listening as it was for me to hear.

Franklin Graham actually believes in his heart of hearts that any person, not just MEDIAite’s over dramatization of ” Holocaust Jews ” , which liberals despise by the way, but even those yet undiscovered ‘ National Geographic ‘ pigmy’s in Australia or Africa somewhere that haven’t accepted ( even though they have no way of knowing ) Jesus Crist as there Lord and Savior, they are damned to Hell.

That’s not religion, that is 100% certifiable _____ing CRAZY.

The only thing more crazy is how Bill O’Reilly could actually question him like he didn’t just say that, then thanking him for sharing his opinions at the end.

What Graham stated has no place in American politics, it has no place in America…period.

In fact it’s right up there with the radical un – American manifesto and misguided ideology of Barack Obama as far as I’m concerned.
ElCapitanAmerica

Alice67 said:
To this day I have no idea why I felt such a strong connection to Gandhi since I was only 3 years old when he died. But he was my reason for walking away from Catholicism as a teen. There was no way I could follow a religion that would exclude him from “heaven”. And I was devout as a child.

Alice;

It’s a shame that you interpreted Catholic doctrine as saying that, specially when that’s not exactly the case.

From the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith;
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010124_dupuis_en.html

V. On the value and salvific function of the religious traditions

8. In accordance with Catholic doctrine, it must be held that «whatever the Spirit brings about in human hearts and in the history of peoples, in cultures and religions, serves as a preparation for the Gospel (cf. Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 16)».[15] It is therefore legitimate to maintain that the Holy Spirit accomplishes salvation in non-Christians also through those elements of truth and goodness present in the various religions; however, to hold that these religions, considered as such, are ways of salvation, has no foundation in Catholic theology, also because they contain omissions, insufficiencies and errors[16] regarding fundamental truths about God, man and the world

“It is therefore legitimate to maintain that the Holy Spirit accomplishes salvation in non-Christians”. That doesn’t mean that the Church says, “hey it doesn’t matter what religion you belong to” or that “all religions are the same”, but it is very clear that the Church doesn’t say what you interpreted.

The Church also can’t exclude people from heaven, nor does it really believe it can, that’s God’s job (you could make the argument in the opposite by the beatification process, but that is meant to reflect something not to determine it).
Barack Must Go

Jaurez said:
Obama Approval at All-time Low for Second Week…

Houston…we’ve got a problem….and it’s a whopper.
Alice67

Jaurez said:
Mr. Obama’s hostility to openness drives the public’s curiosity about the most basic facts of his life. For example, he has refused to release his college and law-school transcripts, information recent presidential candidates have openly shown the public despite some embarrassment over decades-old bad grades. What is there for this president to hide? Maybe he flunked government classes or got busted for dope. He has openly discussed his past drug use, but is there more to it? Secrecy breeds speculation.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/27/birth-certificate-isnt-obamas-only-secret/

Wow, Washington Times goes After-Birther!
Alice67

ElCapitanAmerica said:
Alice;

It’s a shame that you interpreted Catholic doctrine as saying that, specially when that’s not exactly the case.

Captain, you really don’t want me to say what I want to say about Catholicism.

“however, to hold that these religions, considered as such, are ways of salvation, has no foundation in Catholic theology, also because they contain omissions, insufficiencies and errors[16] regarding fundamental truths about God, man and the world”

*gag* and *puke*
ElCapitanAmerica

Alice67 said:
Captain, you really don’t want me to say what I want to say about Catholicism.

“however, to hold that these religions, considered as such, are ways of salvation, has no foundation in Catholic theology, also because they contain omissions, insufficiencies and errors[16] regarding fundamental truths about God, man and the world”

*gag* and *puke*

I included that last section in the spirit of full disclosure, expecting that you wouldn’t approve of it, but to not selectively quote that paragraph. But ultimately, to answer your initial concern (re: Ghandi and salvation) the first part can’t be more clear which I think answers your (unfounded) concern.

The latter part we can talk about extensively, but I wanted to make sure you really understood the first part.

Thanks for reading it at least :-)
ElCapitanAmerica

Barack Must Go said:

That’s not religion, that is 100% certifiable _____ing CRAZY.
…
What Graham stated has no place in American politics, it has no place in America…period.

What Rev. Graham said is what most Christian fundamentalist doctrines officially teach, I’m actually a bit surprised people are surprised by this.

Kudos to O’Reilly for asking a very though question, but to be fair the question has nothing to do with our current political dialog. On the other hand, it is a fair question to ask a religious leader.

In the context of politics, I thought a more relevant question was Rev. Graham’s strange role as being the arbitrator of who is a Christian and who is not, but again, understanding his theology in purely theological terms I know where he’s coming from.
Alice67

ElCapitanAmerica said:
I included that last section in the spirit of full disclosure, expecting that you wouldn’t approve of it, but to not selectively quote that paragraph. But ultimately, to answer your initial concern (re: Ghandi and salvation) the first part can’t be more clear which I think answers your (unfounded) concern.

The latter part we can talk about extensively, but I wanted to make sure you really understood the first part.

Thanks for reading it at least :-)

Sure. :)

But I walked away from Catholicism 47 years ago and still consider it to be the sanest spiritual move I’ve ever made. I think it’s a religion that’s a mess.
skyfet

What kind of a question is that?
skyfet

Jaurez said:
Obama Approval at All-time Low for Second Week…

Check the latest Gallup poll, the tea parties unfavorable ratings are high.
Barack Must Go

skyfet said:
Check the latest Gallup poll, the tea parties unfavorable ratings are high.

The Tea Party isn’t running for president, so what’s your point?
Barack Must Go

me2010 said:
funny how people are somehow blaming Obama for this also wow ! Barack Must Go seems like an older white american, retired with no life & very upset that before he died a black man was leader of the United States ….I luv seeing old white men go insane over this I hope it put them all in an early grave I pray you die soon .. the sooner we can remove old whites the better..

I’m not that old loser. What upsets me about Barack Obama isn’t that fact that he is black. Him attempting to force ” real ” Americans to accept his black reparations, social justice jive under the thinly veiled guise of ‘ hop & change ‘ is bullshit at best.

He is just cocky and racist enough to actually believe that just by telling ” the blacks ” and shithead punks like you, he was going to bend me & mine over, right in front of you, and _____ me until enough of MY money fell out to lower my lifestyle while raising yours enough that a piece of shit like you is the same as me.

That is never going to happen and even if it ever could, you would be back under the bridge living out of a stolen shopping cart before you knew what hit you.

The reason ” real ” Americans have what we have and you’re a racist, jealous, simpleminded shithead is because I’ve chosen to work hard, raise a family and live the ” real ” American dream.

You on the otherhand chose to bitch & whine feeling sorry for yourself and betting on some black activist community organizer to just hand you my life. NOT EVER GOING TO HAPPEN….NOT NOW NOT EVER HERE in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA. Maybe it’s time for you and the other un – American losers to move to Venezuela and Hugo Chavez. He and Barack have a lot in common.
valkyrie101

Barack Must Go said:
That’s not religion, that is 100% certifiable _____ing CRAZY.
The only thing more crazy is how Bill O’Reilly could actually question him like he didn’t just say that, then thanking him for sharing his opinions at the end.
What Graham stated has no place in American politics, it has no place in America…period

Yes, so true.
writer

Those people already went through hell.
THE REAL ROYAL KING

ElCapitanAmerica said:
Barack Must Go said:

That’s not religion, that is 100% certifiable _____ing CRAZY.
…
What Graham stated has no place in American politics, it has no place in America…period.

What Rev. Graham said is what most Christian fundamentalist doctrines officially teach, I’m actually a bit surprised people are surprised by this.

Kudos to O’Reilly for asking a very though question, but to be fair the question has nothing to do with our current political dialog. On the other hand, it is a fair question to ask a religious leader.

In the context of politics, I thought a more relevant question was Rev. Graham’s strange role as being the arbitrator of who is a Christian and who is not, but again, understanding his theology in purely theological terms I know where he’s coming from.

Oddly, you’re both right.
Cecelia

Hasn’t the pattern always been that talking heads ask conservative Christian figures and conservative politicians if they believe that faith in Christ is the only route to heaven. If they believe in evolution. And if they believe that abortion is a mortal sin.

A “yes” answer to any of these things means that aren’t truly Christian, but fundamentalist religious extremist, hell bent on usurping freedom.

However, when it comes to the president, such an attempt to analysis Christian adherence is an outrageous and judgmental intrusion into deeply personal and abstract matters of religious faith.
Resistance Is Futile

O’Reilly, like most conservatives are just plain ignorant. He has no clue that billy Graham organized a pro Vietnam War rally called Honor America Day. O’Reilly does point out the hypocrisy of the evangelical position.

http://tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/program.pl?ID=211316

“The idea for Honor America came from a call to Americans by Bob Hope, the Reverend Billy Graham, J. Willard Marriott and Hobart Lewis to gather at the Reflecting Pool on the Washington Mall on July 4, 1970 and remember the traditions and principles upon which the founding fathers established the great nation.
RichS

Glackin said:
So far you’ve pasted a nice Christian sermon.Now, answer MY question.WHAT does your faith say about those who may have led a moral life, but never heard of the carpenter from Galilee?

How can anyone know?
RichS

Glackin said:
Therefore the “Rev” Graham is as big a huckster as Trump. Subtitled, “Little pussy wants to know.”

I assume you say what you believe, why do you deny that Rev. Graham says what he believes?
http://www.facebook.com/people/Bill-Adkins/1585417987 Bill Adkins

Barack Must Go said:
That exchange was astounding to anyone listening as it was for me to hear. Franklin Graham actually believes in his heart of hearts that any person, not just MEDIAite’s over dramatization of ” Holocaust Jews ” , which liberals despise by the way, but even those yet undiscovered ‘ National Geographic ‘ pigmy’s in Australia or Africa somewhere that haven’t accepted ( even though they have no way of knowing ) Jesus Crist as there Lord and Savior, they are damned to Hell. That’s not religion, that is 100% certifiable _____ing CRAZY. The only thing more crazy is how Bill O’Reilly could actually question him like he didn’t just say that, then thanking him for sharing his opinions at the end. What Graham stated has no place in American politics, it has no place in America…period. In fact it’s right up there with the radical un – American manifesto and misguided ideology of Barack Obama as far as I’m concerned.

Oh, BS!!!! http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-06-24-graham-tapes_N.htm Like father, like son. Simpllistic religion pap for simpletons is what the Grahams sell. Lap it up.
valkyrie101

RichS said:
I assume you say what you believe, why do you deny that Rev. Graham says what he believes?

It speaks to character. If Graham thinks Ghandi is in hell because he did not accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior, I have no problem with that, and I am also cool with expressing such thoughts. But the man is otherwise a talking head who influences public opinion on a variety of social, moral, economic, and political matters, thus, his personal beliefs are certainly relevent in understanding where he is coming from. By putting Ghandi in hell, Graham says: “I am intolerant, unfair, and unforgiving, as a matter of religious belief”. Why then does his opionion mean anything to anyone, except, I suppose, to other like minded people?
Georgia999

I have had three people very close to me pass away recently. Only Our Lord God knows where they are.
Stupid thing for O’Reilly to grill a minister of the Bible on where HE thinks anyone is. O”Reilly is rude, crude and insulting.
Georgia999

Barack Must Go said:
I’m not that old loser. What upsets me about Barack Obama isn’t that fact that he is black. Him attempting to force ” real ” Americans to accept his black reparations, social justice jive under the thinly veiled guise of ‘ hop & change ‘ is bullshit at best. He is just cocky and racist enough to actually believe that just by telling ” the blacks ” and shithead punks like you, he was going to bend me & mine over, right in front of you, and _____ me until enough of MY money fell out to lower my lifestyle while raising yours enough that a piece of shit like you is the same as me. That is never going to happen and even if it ever could, you would be back under the bridge living out of a stolen shopping cart before you knew what hit you. The reason ” real ” Americans have what we have and you’re a racist, jealous, simpleminded shithead is because I’ve chosen to work hard, raise a family and live the ” real ” American dream. You on the otherhand chose to bitch & whine feeling sorry for yourself and betting on some black activist community organizer to just hand you my life. NOT EVER GOING TO HAPPEN….NOT NOW NOT EVER HERE in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA. Maybe it’s time for you and the other un – American losers to move to Venezuela and Hugo Chavez. He and Barack have a lot in common.

AMEN to that !!!!!
ElCapitanAmerica

Amen? How is the president “forcing *real* Americans to accept his black reparations”?

The Hugo Chavez comment is idiotic too, it would be news for Chavez to know that he has a lot in common with the president of the United States.
ElCapitanAmerica

Georgia999 said:
I have had three people very close to me pass away recently. Only Our Lord God knows where they are.

Sorry to hear about your friends, but you are correct, only God knows and one hopes they are with him. However, the reverend doesn’t seem to think that unless they believe exactly like him they can be in heaven. It would be interesting to ask the reverend here what he thinks happens to the souls of aborted babies.

Stupid thing for O’Reilly to grill a minister of the Bible on where HE thinks anyone is. O”Reilly is rude, crude and insulting.

As a question for a political show, it is totally out of place. However, as an interview with a religious leader, it is a perfectly legitimate question. And he could have answered like you just did, “Bill, in the end it is up to God to determine that”, but he didn’t because he is very clear in what he believes.
Real Conservatives Only

Franklin Graham is a good Christian man and so is his father. I pray for them every night. God Bless.
Barack Must Go

ElCapitanAmerica said:
Amen? How is the president “forcing *real* Americans to accept his black reparations”?

The Hugo Chavez comment is idiotic too, it would be news for Chavez to know that he has a lot in common with the president of the United States.

Free health care for ” the blacks ” poor, free college tuition for ” the blacks ” poor, free, subsidized same housing as me for ” the blacks ” poor……..you do the math, crack the secret code, agree with him wholeheartedly, WAKE UP & SMELL THE REALITY…..NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE, somebody ” the whites ” have to pay for everything in Barack’s racist leveling the playing field pipe dream.

NEVER GONNA HAPPEN, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS
Onesweetworld79

Umm does this guy know the bible is a book of fiction?
MitchT

Glackin said:
Each is entitled to the afterlife they envision, if they live by the tenets of their faith.
And I am in no position to advise or instruct anyone.

That position is the same as saying there is no truth. What afterlife? Some religions say there isn’t one, or we get reincarnated. You’ve said they are all true, but that can’t be.

To answer your earlier question, what of the “moral” person who doesn’t have faith in Christ? This isn’t a hard question, Jesus answered it. “No man comes to the Father except through me.” Now people can call me or others names, but I didn’t make that a central part of the Christian faith. Christ did. And if that is not true, then that calls into question everything else in the Bible, including Hell, and Heaven. If there is a spiritual power that is (a) real and (b) greater than man, then said power makes the rules for how he does things. Our culture doesn’t want to submit to any authority over humanity, so we pick and choose the parts we like. Heaven-good. Hell-bad, therefore must not exist. How is this binding on a power greater than us?

Back to your “moral” people or the “innocent” in Africa who haven’t heard. Bible answers that. Clearly. First, there are no innocent or moral people, because we have ALL broken God’s law. We all deserve eternal death. It is easy to look at our own life and make that the standard for “good” and call God evil for sending anyone like us to Hell. But again, that is US picking the standard. God is perfect, His standard is perfection. And before we call Him evil, the Bible tells us that all men are without excuse, because God has made himself known in the world right in front of us. AND He has made a way for us to solve the fatal problem of having broken His law–by sending a perfect Son to take our punishment.

So the answer to BOR’s question is that if they had faith in Christ, they were saved. If not, they went to Hell. The fact that they died in the Holocaust has nothing to do with it. People with faith in Christ die in concentration camps, tornadoes, blown up skyscrapers, car accidents, and from cancer. Just like everyone else. As for the kids, there is not explicit Biblical teaching on when someone is accountable for believing in Christ. Christians have historically believed that a God who loves us enough to send His Son to die in our place would not hold someone accountable who was not capable of believing, such as an infant or mentally-challenged person.

Since you seemed to be asking a sincere question, there is your answer. What is unfortunate is that Graham was not prepared to answer this, probably because of the typical hysterical reaction that what the Bible teaches is not fair by our personal preferences and feelings, and because media people and the general public can’t or won’t discuss this according to basic logic.
meena140

Rev. Franklin Graham/Trump/Palin/Beck/Rush/Hannity are all racist!
http://www.facebook.com/people/Ed-Durffee/1311278663 Ed Durffee

illusive man said:
If there is a God and heaven, i’m sure God would make room for his chosen people.
The rev is an idiot to think otherwise.

Its a strange thing, God may have chosen a people, but there were many of those he chose who did not see fit to choose him. So now what does God do? He gave them/us the rules and the promises, when you choose you set the outcome. I have no clue how he chooses to punch tickets, BUT he has promised, you will need one punched for the ultimate ride.
Tedderman

Franklin Grahm will never know if holocost jews went to heaven as he’ll be with Ghandi. Anyone with the degree of hatred in his heart this man has is not a true servant of god.
MitchT

Glackin said:
Then your God is nothing more than a petty tyrant who accepts only complete subjugation and condemns everyone else. Not exactly the loving, merciful Deity, is he?

Didn’t bother to read the post, eh? He creates the world and sets the rules (which are for our good), and the penalty for breaking them. Then, when they are broken, at great sacrifice to himself, he makes a way to escape the punishment. Sounds like the definition of loving and merciful.

But you don’t like his rules, and you don’t like his way of escaping the punishment. So who is being petty?
http://www.facebook.com/people/Ed-Durffee/1311278663 Ed Durffee

ElCapitanAmerica said:
Sorry to hear about your friends, but you are correct, only God knows and one hopes they are with him. However, the reverend doesn’t seem to think that unless they believe exactly like him they can be in heaven. It would be interesting to ask the reverend here what he thinks happens to the souls of aborted babies.

As a question for a political show, it is totally out of place. However, as an interview with a religious leader, it is a perfectly legitimate question. And he could have answered like you just did, “Bill, in the end it is up to God to determine that”, but he didn’t because he is very clear in what he believes.

I did not see Rev Graham demanding anyone believe exactly like he does. There are however certain requirements put forth in the Bible that are demands if we expect certain things from God. If you dont wish to believe in the Bible teachings then this is all mooooot. On those Rev Graham was clear, on the subjects of innocents dying without acts of faith, Im certain God has that plan in place, just have no clue what it is, and neither does Rev Graham and he said so. Its up to God. As for the Holocaust, That was an incident, a happening in this world, and it affected people, a certain race of people. Of those, maybe there were some who accepted Jesus Christ, many didnt believe him to be the chosen one yet. If I were to guess, I would say those who had the opportunity and declined, will follow the path they chose, and those who chose Gods way, will follow that path. Had nothing to do with the event.
Nachi

But will this Republican Man of God at least tell us if angels can REALLY fly??
my dogs gone

O’Reilly is really asking if Graham believes if it is possible for Jews and other non-Christians to go to Heaven.
Part of the Bible says “no.” I suspect there is a loophole if you wish to look for it.
Otherwise how could “the Chosen People” ever get to Heaven?
Barack Must Go

Glackin said:
So, there are NO poor whites in your neck of the woods? Every WHITE child has medical coverage? Can afford their education? Live is a safe home? Where IS your planet?
Of course, nothing is free. But only a racist demagogue would reduce the problem to “the blacks”.
Just another Trump wannabe.

The question asked was about black reparations and Obama, not white people.

Everything Obama has attempted to do is to take from the rich ( white people according to you libs ) and give to the poor ( black people I’m supposedly racist against ). You D-Bags say it every single day ad nauseum even though it’s not true.

I just don’t want the black president settling his score from his communist / community organizer / Rev. Wright’s star pupil dayz ______ing with me and mine because he’s got a chip on his shoulder for white folks, because his words and actions say LOUD & CLEAR he does.

Dems jus da fags ma’ ham.
Georgia999

Nachi said:
But will this Republican Man of God at least tell us if angels can REALLY fly??

A monkey’s comment from the monkey that you are !
MitchT

Glackin said:
I have been on this thread since yesterday. No one has answered my initial question. What does YOUR faith, YOUR Deity, say about those who could not receive the “words you live by”?
Is everyone not exposed to Christianity condemned to Hell? If you are Catholic, will you alone get in?
Each of you responds with quotes from your bible. What of the devout Buddhist who has never seen one?
Is YOUR God so petty that he would banish people for the sin of not knowing they had sinned?
If you have a rational explanation, please proceed.
If all you have is scripture, save it. It has probably already been posted.

Not only do you not read other’s posts, you don’t read your own. “What does YOUR faith, YOUR deity say” followed by (paraphrasing) “don’t tell me what’s in the Bible.” I believe what’s in the Bible. I would hope I’m not arrogant enough to make up a religion and say “this is how the being that created me does things.” It’s a simple concept: The Creator defines the rules, not the created.

I didn’t quote the Bible directly to you, and I answered your question. God says that what can be known about Him has been made plain to man since the world was created. Claiming “I didn’t know” is not an excuse.

I’m sure you don’t like that. Take it up with the highest authority. But where do you get off making all these moral pronouncements about God being “petty” and a “tyrant?” If there is no one true God, or if humans get to define him (in which case he isn’t God), then morality is totally subjective. Might makes right. And your accusations of pettiness carry the weight of my dislike for anchovies–personal preference, not having anything to do with truth.
Barack Must Go

Glackin said:
When and where did Obama demand your “black reparations”?
Or is this another of those reich-wing, “Not meant to be a factual statement.” thingees?
P.S. Jack Webb, you are not. Jerk Wadd, a-hole buddy of Johnny, could be.

My two previous posts lay out my position. All you are doing is laying pipe for Obama so you’ll just never get it.
MitchT

Glackin said:
Morality has nothing to do with religion. Were it only true that the religious were moral as well.
I await your explanation. China has had a written civilization for over 5000 years. Any God who could create them and then condemn them because they hadn’t received “the word” that would come thousands of years later is “petty” at best.
Yes I read your work. Did not find an answer.

You have created a strawman scenario and then claim God is evil according to your scenario. God says the Chinese have received all the “word” they need and refuse to acknowledge Him as God. That would be the third time I’ve answered the question. You don’t like the answer.

God defines morality. Why is it wrong to condemn the Chinese? Because their souls have value? Says who? And who made their souls? You make moral pronouncements left and right. You’re not God, and you are borrowing His concepts of morality to try to condemn Him! Like a little girl sitting on her father’s lap so she can reach to slap his face. Without a higher authority than a person’s opinion, you have no grounds for complaining about ANYTHING, let alone what God does. By what authoritative standard do you call God wrong?
pinandpuller

Tmccarthiera said:
Nothing you just quoted answered his question. Native-Americans lived on this land for thousands of years without contact from Europe, Africa or Asia. They had no concept of Heaven or Hell, or of Christ. Therefore, according to the Book of Revelation, they were “pagans” and will burn in eternal hell fire. Your religion is retarded. Sorry. There is no such as God or heaven or hell. You believe in them solely because you are afraid of the imaginary consequences of not believing (going to hell).

Not a Mormon I see. Or Scientologist.
pinandpuller

Ardiva said:
I believe that Bill asked a reasonable question regarding the holocaust victims. Franklin couldn’t give a concrete answer. His bad.

Graham should have asked O’Reilly what happened to all the Jews the Catholics killed.
pinandpuller

Pablo said:
Someone should ask devout Christian Barack Obama that question. He’s pretty much the Second Coming, so he probably knows for sure.

The Resurrection-it pretty much puts things in perspective.
pinandpuller

illusive man said:
If there is a God and heaven, i’m sure God would make room for his chosen people.The rev is an idiot to think otherwise.

as Billy Crystal put it”.Where’s your Moses NOW?”
pinandpuller

Alice67 said:
Muslims?
Glackin says:

When they come door to door you better hope you live in a castle doctrine state.
pinandpuller

Ed Durffee said:
Its a strange thing, God may have chosen a people, but there were many of those he chose who did not see fit to choose him. So now what does God do? He gave them/us the rules and the promises, when you choose you set the outcome. I have no clue how he chooses to punch tickets, BUT he has promised, you will need one punched for the ultimate ride.

If you reject God aren’t you sending yourself to Hell?
pinandpuller

Glackin said:
Now the comedians come. Penispuller, how many other pseudonyms you running under? Still afraid to be yourself?Jump right in. What do the Mormons say about those who lived before Bro. Miller found the tablets?And Scientology, what happens if you bounce a check on L. Ron?

My reference was to the discussion of native Americans. A big tenet of the Mormon faith is Jesus appearing in North America and that the natives are actually a lost tribe of Jews. And I think you meant Bro Smith.

So is “Glackin” supposed to rhyme with “tough actin”?
pinandpuller

Glackin said:
If you don’t believe in God, why would you believe in Hell?

“If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.” Rush

“What are you looking for the Devil for, when you ought to be looking for the Lord?” Petra
pinandpuller

Glackin said:
Distorted editing only proves you are not to be believed. “Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

“Hear me now, believe me later.”

Hey you sound like that creepy guy from The DaVinci Code. Don’t beat yourself up over it.
pinandpuller

Glackin said:
And I promise to return to these comments every time you racist bigots show up’

So you’re like our Messiah now?
pinandpuller

Glackin said:
Distorted editing only proves you are not to be believed. “Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

http://volokh.com/2011/04/29/eighth-circuit-holds-that-even-lies-are-constitutionally-protected-unless-theyre-fraudulent-or-defamatory-or-unless-the-restriction-is-narrowly-tailored-to-a-compelling-state-interest/
pinandpuller

my dogs gone said:
O’Reilly is really asking if Graham believes if it is possible for Jews and other non-Christians to go to Heaven.
Part of the Bible says “no.” I suspect there is a loophole if you wish to look for it.
Otherwise how could “the Chosen People” ever get to Heaven?

The Jews await their Messiah. Christians think it was Yeshua bar Joseph.

Jews think he was a crucified blasphemer. Muslims think he’s just this guy…

Christians are just the early adopters.

There are contingencies in the Torah for MOT.

Sons of Ishmael are SOL,
pinandpuller

Glackin said:
Yeah, there was a brain freeze over Joseph Smith. One of my Moronic moments. Maybe a couple of tablets will make me better.For your next, WTF? You drop in after what has become 24 hours of often rational discourse, and think a few “bon mots” will grant you entry? Take an hour. Read. Then come back, and we will talk.I’ll give you a head start. Whose “lord”, and whose “devil” is a good place to start.

What was I not supposed to walk past all the lamb’s blood over your lintel?

Look, pal, all I need for entry is an internet connection. Where can I tell you to go that you believe in?
Paul G

My God!!! This is from Thursday!!! Can someone take this down please????
MitchT

Glackin said:
Out here, in the street, is where we talk.Go back and read the last 24. Bring your A game.
Tell me if your “god” will accept into your “heaven” people who have not and could not hear his word.
If he will not, what happens to them? Why did he create them, knowing he was condemning them for eternity?

What’s the point? You are either incapable or unwilling to have a rational discussion. If we tell you our beliefs, summarizing Scripture, you will call us “arrogant” and “speaking for our Deity.” If we answer your question with the words of God, you say its meaningless. You can’t refute any arguments, you just say they are wrong and call people names.

You can’t even make a logical point. You say “GOD does not define morality. People have led moral lives who never heard of God.” Statement B proves nothing about Stmt A. The fact that people happen to follow a definition, whether they have heard about it or not, has nothing to do with where that definition came from. Talk about needing to bring your A game!

Your question has been answered. You don’t like the answer. Which means you deny the authority of God (you could call him the Christian God) to do what he has said he is doing. And you call him immoral–while looking at only the last half of the picture. The question remains, who made you the arbiter of what is morally right and what isn’t?
Dsiscokid

Glackin said:
China has had a written civilization for over 5000 years.

Well, here are at least 60,000,000 saints of God trying to do reach their countrymen with The Gospel of Jesus Christ as we type –

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/chinese_police_detain_leaders_of_unregistered_beijing_church_in_ongoing_crackdown/2011/04/17/AFPSysrD_story.html?wprss=rss_world

Also, check this website out to see what is going on around the world –

http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?clickfrom=bWFpbl9tZW51
Singer

I would think that if it pertains to Jews, it might be better to ask a Rabbi. Christianity and Judaism are two diametrically opposed religions. in spite of the fact that Christians claim their roots to be in Judaism, the only thing they have in common is a Jewish teacher. A rabbi explained it once as this: David had a beautiful garden in which he grew tomatoes. Paul came along and planted cucumbers in the same garden and then told everyone that roots of the cucumbers were actually the tomatoes.

Jews believe in the coming of a fully human messiah to be a leader in the same fashion as Solomon and David.. Christians believe in a man-god drawn from pagan lore.

Jews believe in one indivisible god. Christians believe in a triune god – a concept that came from the Vatican in the fourth century.

Jews follow Torah that states that each person must atone for his own sins and human sacrifice is forbidden. Christians believe Jesus died for our sins – a pagan concept.

Jews believe that one must follow God’s commandments every day of ones life in order to be born into eternal life – in short personal responsibility for ones actions. Christians place belief in Jesus as the way to go to heaven.

The (original) Jewish Tanakh now used , in no place predicts a virgin birth, nor does it have predictions for a man god. It does predict a fully human mosioch who will be recognized by bringing world peace and rebuilding the temple. The edited (and in places forged) bible that we have is (mis)interpreted by Christians to predict a man god.

The Jews follow the directions of the Torah in that they can pray in private directly to God and he will know what must be done. Sins can be expiated by asking forgiveness of the wronged person and repayment for injury and then prayer. Christians pray through Jesus and assume that their sins are automatically forgiven by his death.

It would be reasonable then to safely assume that the Jewish children under the age of accountability (pre-pubertal) automatically would be born again into eternity. As far as the Jewish adults, it would depend on how they had conducted themselves in life whether they deserved to be so re-born.
Singer

Pinandpuller wrote: ” big tenet of the Mormon faith is Jesus appearing in North America and that the natives are actually a lost tribe of Jews”

DNA testing has already shown that the natives have no relationship to the Jews.
timcajun

Barack Must Go says
Dems jus da fags ma’ ham.
………………………………
I can’t believe you waste any amount of time trying to defend yourself from being called a racist! You and I both know what you mean by the above statement! Before you “tea” lie and say you didn’t mean anything by it, why do you, over and over keep doing the same thing! Your hate has blinded you! The proof is in your comments and lack of facts from your rants! Keep the hate alive!
Singer

dsiscokid wrote: “I used to feel the same way. What God really conviced me with were the O.T. prophesies. Genesis 3, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, to name a few, were written hundreds (some a thousand) years before Jesus came to Earth.”

Not one of the OT prophecies is for Jesus.
Singer

For all of you posters and the “follow Jesus” biblical quotes, perhaps you should first understand that Jesus was a practicing Jew and Christianity as you know it today hadn’t been invented by Paul for 30 years yet. What Jesus was preaching was Judaism from the Torah. His followers, the Jewish Christians (later called Ebionites) and who, incidentally, believed that Jesus was a FULLY HUMAN mosoich/leader,were later hunted down and killed when PAULINE CHRISTIANITY became organized and became the state religion known as Catholicism. The true Christian roots are in Rome – not with the Jews.

Paul’s writings came at around 59AD. He neither knew Jesus nor studied under him or his apostles. In fact after the incident in Antioch, his ties with the Jerusalem church, if there ever really were any, were permanently broken because he was accused of preaching heresy. Nonetheless, it is this heresy that is the basis of Pauline Christianity. The gospels followed after that. All of the gospel writers are anonymous and the names given to them were based on tradition, at the time the bible was compiled in the fourth century.
Singer

Alice wrote: “No one is going to have a conversation with a bunch of bible quotes.”

Absolutely true but the babblists feel they are quoting indisputable “proof” and that we should quake at the sight of this earthshaking wisdom. In truth, John was written 80 years after the fact by an anonymous writer and is passing on what can be called hearsay.