Angry Colonel On MSNBC: Let Me Waterboard Rumsfeld And ‘We’ll See If He Says It’s Torture

’Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, former Chief of Staff for Secretary of State Colin Powell appeared on The Ed Show and told Ed Schultz that Rumsfeld is plainly “delusional.”

This jackass worked for Colin Powell and said this?

What a ______ing SHOCKER…….and on the ‘ Ed Show ‘ no less.

I wonder if before prepping guests on MSNBC, producers remind them, “Look, we’re MSNBC, so there’s a certain level of outrage and anger you must exhibit. If you’re not shouting, spitting, turning red in the face, and calling people names, you’re not doing your job. MSNBC is the ‘Place for Politics’… and outrage!”

Why are these nutty leftists always excited to waterboard/torture their fellow Americans, but the thought of doing it to our enemies makes them angry? Not only that, but imagine some right winger on Fox was talking about waterboarding Obama or any Democrat? It s would be instant outrage from Mediaite and the rest of the left wing media.

Sooo much hypocrisy!

what a joke of a headline this is – Wilkersonis a liberal weenie, has been forever, and always complained about anything everything Bush/Rummy/Cheney.

Typical mediaite sensationalism.

And Ed seemed so nice when he worked with Wilbur.

If you have ever been in the Military, you will, unfortunately, run
into an occasional Career Officer that would be able to tell you
what ANYONE in the room Senior to him in Rank, OR, High
Ranking Civilian VIP in his vicinity had for Breakfast, if said Senior or VIP
made a sudden stop….(_x_)
Col. Wilkerson is one of those, Ahem, gentlemen!

Wilkerson wanted Bush impeached as a war crimminal…

TfT said:
what a joke of a headline this is – Wilkersonis a liberal weenie, has been forever, and always complained about anything everything Bush/Rummy/Cheney.

Typical mediaite sensationalism.

You obviously know nothing about Col. Wilkerson’s career, he is a life long Republican and still is to this day. He was one of the only brave members of the Bush adminstration an real insider, who stood up and rightfully said that the Bush administration LIED about Iraq and that Rumsfeld is nothing but a LIAR. He is a brave man, he didn’t leave his party his party left him and checked into the insane asylum.

skoorbekim said:
Wilkerson wanted Bush impeached as a war crimminal…

So did a lot of smart people.

Edith Massey said:
You obviously know nothing about Col. Wilkerson’s career, he is a life long Republican and still is to this day. He was one of the only brave members of the Bush adminstration an real insider, who stood up and rightfully said that the Bush administration LIED about Iraq and that Rumsfeld is nothing but a LIAR. He is a brave man, he didn’t leave his party his party left him and checked into the insane asylum.

If anyone said these things about Obama, they would be tared and feathered as a racist by the Democrats and the MSM. We all know it.

what a bunch of bull pucky you spew about Wilkerson; I know more about him than I care to. he is a bore. Bush never lied about Iraq, and anyone with a brian knows that. Just because MSNBC says he did, doesn’t make it so.

Why can’t these guys understand that it’s not the method that defines torture, it’s the reason. It doesn’t matter if I water-board you or pull out your nails. it’s the reason I do it that matters. If I do it for my own sadistic pleasure or simply to inflict pain upon you, then it’s torture. If you are a known or at least suspected terrorist, and I do it to you to extract information about terrorist activities, then it’s not torture – it’s “intense” interrogation.

Edith Massey said:
You obviously know nothing about Col. Wilkerson’s career, he is a life long Republican and still is to this day. He was one of the only brave members of the Bush adminstration an real insider, who stood up and rightfully said that the Bush administration LIED about Iraq and that Rumsfeld is nothing but a LIAR. He is a brave man, he didn’t leave his party his party left him and checked into the insane asylum.

Wilkerson has never seen an ass he wouldn’t kiss, If said
ass was being hauled around by someone senior to him.
R or D or L or I.

torture is burning someone alive
torture is forcing someone to jump to their death
torture is stabbing someone to death in front of hundreds of innocent people
torture is hijacking an airplane filled with hundreds of innocent people and flying them into a building
torture is having a building collapse around you
torture is listening to your voicemail, hearing the last words of your husband seconds before he burns to death
torture is desperately trying to reach you loved ones on the phone as you watch the fires come closer and closer…

Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson can shove his *waterboarding is torture* outrage up his a**.

Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson appears to be at the apex of a mediocre military career. While 99% of officers who served were fantastic, there are those that wallow in bitterness for not having “made it” all the way. Becoming a angry talking bobble head is therapeutic and lucrative for some.

MSNBC is like pro wrestling at night

Does Wilkerson know we torture our own men as a matter of course? Whoops, I meant waterboard our own men.

Probably NOT wrong said:
Wilkerson has never seen an ass he wouldn’t kiss, If said
ass was being hauled around by someone senior to him.
R or D or L or I.

Hey I thought Republicans supported and respected our military?

After three years of studying philosophy and English literature at Bucknell University, Wilkerson dropped out in 1966 and volunteered to serve in the Vietnam War. He told the Washington Post: “I felt an obligation because my dad had fought, and I thought that was kind of your duty.”[1]

Wilkerson arrived as an Army officer piloting an OH-6A Cayuse observation helicopter and logged about 1100 combat hours over a year. He went on to Airborne School and Ranger School before receiving his Bachelor of Arts degree in English literature and graduate degrees in international relations and national security. He attended the Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island and later returned there to teach. He later served as deputy director of the Marine Corps War College at Quantico.

Wilkerson spent some years in the United States Navy’s Pacific Command in South Korea, Japan and Hawaii, where he was well regarded by his superiors. These recommendations led in early 1989 to a successful interview to become the assistant to Colin Powell, who was then finishing his stint as National Security Advisor in the Reagan administration and moving to a position in the United States Army Forces Command at Fort McPherson. He continued this supporting role as Powell became Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff through the Gulf War, following Powell into civilian life and then back into public service when President George W. Bush appointed Powell Secretary of State.

You denigrate a Vet? I guess you people support the troops but only if they are on your team? Got it.

jerrybobphil said:
MSNBC is like pro wrestling at night

Politics is like pro wrestling, but you think it isn’t staged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zjX7nck2Rk

Lawrence Wilkerson on Douglas Feith (this is funny).

I am a Veteran, Edith my dear.
I have been around a lot of good men and women, but I have also
seen some of these good women turn into Ass Kissing Brass Polishers as their
Careers are advancing OR Not Advancing, whatever the case may be

sarainitaly said:
torture is burning someone alive
torture is forcing someone to jump to their death
torture is stabbing someone to death in front of hundreds of innocent people
torture is hijacking an airplane filled with hundreds of innocent people and flying them into a building
torture is having a building collapse around you
torture is listening to your voicemail, hearing the last words of your husband seconds before he burns to death
torture is desperately trying to reach you loved ones on the phone as you watch the fires come closer and closer…

Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson can shove his *waterboarding is torture* outrage up his a**.

Tell that to Christopher Hitchens and Mancow, two supporters of all the wars who were both waterboared and both had to admit it’s torture. Tell that to Jesse Ventura a former Navy SEAL who went through SERE training and was waterboared, he says it’s torture and he is no Liberal either

You might want to tell Ronald Reagan while you are at it who signed an anti torture policy during his adminstration that included waterboarding. It seems like you are going against people who have either been waterboarded, people who have served in the military and the Republicans favorite President. You ever been waterboarded you ever serve your country?

Guess you have no problem when our men and women who serve may be captured by the enemy and tortured in the same way because we do it to our enemies.

Probably NOT wrong said:
I am a Veteran, Edith my dear.
I have been around a lot of good men and women, but I have also
seen some of these good women turn into Ass Kissing Brass Polishers as their
Careers are advancing OR Not Advancing, whatever the case may be

Cool an internet Vet. Gotta love those people.

Probably NOT wrong said:
I am a Veteran, Edith my dear.
I have been around a lot of good men and women, but I have also
seen some of these good women turn into Ass Kissing Brass Polishers as their
Careers are advancing OR Not Advancing, whatever the case may be

Men and Women—–
Sorry

sarainitaly said:
torture is burning someone alive
torture is forcing someone to jump to their death
torture is stabbing someone to death in front of hundreds of innocent people
torture is hijacking an airplane filled with hundreds of innocent people and flying them into a building
torture is having a building collapse around you
torture is listening to your voicemail, hearing the last words of your husband seconds before he burns to death
torture is desperately trying to reach you loved ones on the phone as you watch the fires come closer and closer…

Not to mention after WWII we sentenced Japanese officers to death for waterboarding prisoners. Guess you people have decided to move the goalposts in order to satisfy some sadistic streak in your collective psyche. Not me, I refuse to give into bloodlust like you do.

Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson can shove his *waterboarding is torture* outrage up his a**.

sarainitaly said:
torture is burning someone alive
torture is forcing someone to jump to their death
torture is stabbing someone to death in front of hundreds of innocent people
torture is hijacking an airplane filled with hundreds of innocent people and flying them into a building
torture is having a building collapse around you
torture is listening to your voicemail, hearing the last words of your husband seconds before he burns to death
torture is desperately trying to reach you loved ones on the phone as you watch the fires come closer and closer…

Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson can shove his *waterboarding is torture* outrage up his a**.

If waterboarding it not torture why did the US convict Japanese officers of war crimes for waterboarding?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

Edith Massey said:
Tell that to Christopher Hitchens and Mancow, two supporters of all the wars who were both waterboared and both had to admit it’s torture. Tell that to Jesse Ventura a former Navy SEAL who went through SERE training and was waterboared, he says it’s torture and he is no Liberal either

You might want to tell Ronald Reagan while you are at it who signed an anti torture policy during his adminstration that included waterboarding. It seems like you are going against people who have either been waterboarded, people who have served in the military and the Republicans favorite President. You ever been waterboarded you ever serve your country?

Not to mention we sentenced Japanese officers to death for waterboarding prisoners during WWII. But you people have decided to move the goalposts to satisfy some sadistic urge for revenge and bloodlust. I won’t participate in your disgusting justification for torture, it puts our troops in harms way and allows our enemies to engage in the same tactics in the future.

Edith Massey said:
Tell that to Christopher Hitchens and Mancow, two supporters of all the wars who were both waterboared and both had to admit it’s torture. Tell that to Jesse Ventura a former Navy SEAL who went through SERE training and was waterboared, he says it’s torture and he is no Liberal either You might want to tell Ronald Reagan while you are at it who signed an anti torture policy during his adminstration that included waterboarding. It seems like you are going against people who have either been waterboarded, people who have served in the military and the Republicans favorite President. You ever been waterboarded you ever serve your country? Guess you have no problem when our men and women who serve may be captured by the enemy and tortured in the same way because we do it to our enemies.

one, our enemy just hold us hostage, and then kill us, second, shooting a terrorist in cold blood is fine with you, but torture is where you draw the line?

cjd ohio 1 said:
one, our enemy just hold us hostage, and then kill us, second, shooting a terrorist in cold blood is fine with you, but torture is where you draw the line?

Admiral Yamamoto was killed in cold blood during WWII. That not considered a war crime then, but waterboarding was.

cjd ohio 1 said:
one, our enemy just hold us hostage, and then kill us, second, shooting a terrorist in cold blood is fine with you, but torture is where you draw the line?

So where, exactly, do you draw the line, or should it be “gloves off” in all respects, with the understanding that world opinion will be against us AND the terrorists….

LMAO@Wilkerson calling someone else a “yes man” while he has Colin Powell’s hand up his a$$.

sarainitaly said:
torture is burning someone alive
torture is forcing someone to jump to their death
torture is stabbing someone to death in front of hundreds of innocent people
torture is hijacking an airplane filled with hundreds of innocent people and flying them into a building
torture is having a building collapse around you
torture is listening to your voicemail, hearing the last words of your husband seconds before he burns to death
torture is desperately trying to reach you loved ones on the phone as you watch the fires come closer and closer…

Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson can shove his *waterboarding is torture* outrage up his a**.

well, i guess you don’t really care much for the numerous laws and treaties we have co-signed.

i understand, you’re american, and 9.11 is the center of your moral/ethical universe.

but out in this little place called ‘reality’ we have laws and treaties, self-respect, dignity, etc.

and btw, “torture” is not “burning someone alive”

that would be “murder.”

cjd ohio 1 said:
one, our enemy just hold us hostage, and then kill us, second, shooting a terrorist in cold blood is fine with you, but torture is where you draw the line?

Hey whatever happened to American Exceptionalism? I thought the United States Of America was supposed to be an example of how countries and cultures should be have. I thought we were better than the terrorist. I thought we would have enough faith in our Constitution and the rule of law, to trust that the system would be able to handle a criminal even as big as OBL?

I guess you Republican/Teabagger types are only interested in paying lip service to our founding documents, you love to talk about how we should “follow the Constitution” when it suits your narrow agenda, but when the Constitution calls on we as a country to sometimes do the hard thing, but the right thing you guys want to tear it up and make new rules to suit your Party and not your country.

Okay just so I know who I am dealing with, not me I think the Constitution is strong enough to stand up to even Osama bin Laden, apparently you don’t.

darladoon said:
well, i guess you don’t really care much for the numerous laws and treaties we have co-signed.

i understand, you’re american, and 9.11 is the center of your moral/ethical universe.

but out in this little place called ‘reality’ we have laws and treaties, self-respect, dignity, etc.

She is Italian I think? Or she is living in Italy as an ex-pat and watching from the sidelines, I am sure it’s easy to denigrate our men and women in uniform and our President when you live in Europe.

Definition of TORTURE
1
a : anguish of body or mind : agony b : something that causes agony or pain

Waterboarding is torture…

was it okay?

You decide.

Torture is watching MSNBC

Paul G said:
Torture is watching MSNBC

Yeah and every other “news” channel in this country.

The Leftists really speaking out about torture but most of them are being very silent when it comes to murder lately.

TheEagle said:
Admiral Yamamoto was killed in cold blood during WWII. That not considered a war crime then, but waterboarding was.

because we won the war

Edith Massey said:
Hey whatever happened to American Exceptionalism? I thought the United States Of America was supposed to be an example of how countries and cultures should be have. I thought we were better than the terrorist. I thought we would have enough faith in our Constitution and the rule of law, to trust that the system would be able to handle a criminal even as big as OBL? I guess you Republican/Teabagger types are only interested in paying lip service to our founding documents, you love to talk about how we should “follow the Constitution” when it suits your narrow agenda, but when the Constitution calls on we as a country to sometimes do the hard thing, but the right thing you guys want to tear it up and make new rules to suit your Party and not your country. Okay just so I know who I am dealing with, not me I think the Constitution is strong enough to stand up to even Osama bin Laden, apparently you don’t.

so you approve of shooting unarmed terrorist?

Edith Massey said:
She is Italian I think? Or she is living in Italy as an ex-pat and watching from the sidelines, I am sure it’s easy to denigrate our men and women in uniform and our President when you live in Europe.

of course, by “denigrate” what you really mean is “telling them that waterboarding is torture, with sufficient legal precedent to back it up”

btw, why is colonel wilkerson just an “angry colonel” and not a rational, law-abiding individual?

cjd ohio 1 said:
so you approve of shooting unarmed terrorist?

Not at all.

Somebody challenged Sean Hannity to be waterboarded under controlled conditions to see how long he could take it. The bet would have won him a large donation to the charity of his choice.

Hannity pussed out, like a typical “limp-wrist,” (in the Teabagger vernacular).

Edith Massey said:
Not at all.

so to you bush is guilty of torture, and obama is guilty of murder

Let’s put them both on trail.

cjd ohio 1 said:
so to you bush is guilty of torture, and obama is guilty of murder

I am not a judge I don’t claim either of them to be guilty before a trial, but the Bush administration violated the Geneva Convention but violated the treaty on torture signed by Ronald Reagan. As far as I know the President currently has an assassination program that can target enemy combatants whomever he sees to fit that description, I don’t like that policy but whether or not it is legal I can’t say I don’t know enough about the laws concerning “enemy combatants”, the Bush adminstration changed a lot of what is permissable when someone is deemed an “enemy combatant killed on the battlefield”.

Edith Massey said:
I am not a judge I don’t claim either of them to be guilty before a trial, but the Bush administration violated the Geneva Convention but violated the treaty on torture signed by Ronald Reagan. As far as I know the President currently has an assassination program that can target enemy combatants whomever he sees to fit that description, I don’t like that policy but whether or not it is legal I can’t say I don’t know enough about the laws concerning “enemy combatants”, the Bush adminstration changed a lot of what is permissable when someone is deemed an “enemy combatant killed on the battlefield”.

so both need to be put on trial?

darladoon said:
well, i guess you don’t really care much for the numerous laws and treaties we have co-signed.

The Geneva Conventions don’t apply to those who don’t abide by them.

Mia Kulper said:
Let’s put them both on trail.

I agree, Bush should have been impeached but that doesn’t mean Obama should get a free pass, it looks like he violated the law as well. For me and I hope everyone, the rule of law, and the Constitution trumps Party affiliation. Just because I voted for Obama doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be held accountable if he violates the law.

Pablo said:
The Geneva Conventions don’t apply to those who don’t abide by them.

Then in future conflict when our troops are tortured or killed in custody according to you all the country has to do is say “well we don’t abide by the Geneva Conventions so it doesn’t apply to us”.

I will not condone putting our troops in harms way the way you seem to want to.

Edith Massey said:
Tell that to Christopher Hitchens and Mancow, two supporters of all the wars who were both waterboared and both had to admit it’s torture. Tell that to Jesse Ventura

i will, got their numbers?

and why don’t you tell the victims of 9/11 that you feel bad for the 3 terrorists who plotted their murders because they were waterboarded…oh wait, you can’t. they’re dead.

Edith Massey said:
Guess you have no problem when our men and women who serve may be captured by the enemy and tortured in the same way because we do it to our enemies.

Guess you have no problem with the enemy decapitating and torturing our soldiers, civilian aid workers, and journalists, and murdering 3000 civilians, regardless of whether we waterboarded three people, or not.

GRAPHIC:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/183865.php

Pablo said:
The Geneva Conventions don’t apply to those who don’t abide by them.

It applies to all nations who adopt it.

We can’t decide when and how it applies to us. It’s part of our law.

OxyCon said:
LMAO@Wilkerson calling someone else a “yes man” while he has Colin Powell’s hand up his a$$.

What’s your problem with General Colin Powell???

4 star General Colin Powell???

Secretary of State Colin Powell???

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell???

Oh wait……that’s right….OxyCon…..it’s because it’s African American Colin Powell.

What a CLOWN you are OxyCon…..What a CLOWN!!!!

sarainitaly said:
Guess you have no problem with the enemy decapitating and torturing our soldiers, civilian aid workers, and journalists, and murdering 3000 civilians, regardless of whether we waterboarded three people, or not.

So you want us to be just like them?

darladoon said:
and btw, “torture” is not “burning someone alive”

that would be “murder.”

tell that to the person burning alive.

Edith Massey said:
Then in future conflict when our troops are tortured or killed in custody according to you all the country has to do is say “well we don’t abide by the Geneva Conventions so it doesn’t apply to us”.

I will not condone putting our troops in harms way the way you seem to want to.

I think he is speaking of the terrorists not abiding them…however, we claim to be so upstanding why do we need to sink to their level. It’s a touchy subject, I still believe we could have gotten information in other ways…America is clever remember? Not dumb and abrasive…well under Bush, maybe.

This stuff is always so funny. Because something sucks doesn’t qualify it as torture. Let me ‘splain something to you good folks. Torture involves broken bones, blood, electrical current to the genitals, and holes in kneecaps, elbows, wrists, and skulls put there by devices bearing 3/8″ spinning shanks.

But then, that’s not what this is about, is it? It’s all about diminishing anything that the previous administration may have done to help facilitate recent events.

Kind of a shame that progressives refuse to let history just play out without trying to re-write their political opponents out of it. It was a great day in America on Sunday night and Monday morning, but the current administration has been stepping on their own dicks ever since. These guys could f**k up a wet dream.

Edith Massey said:
Not to mention after WWII we sentenced Japanese officers to death for waterboarding prisoners.

No, we didn’t.

Pablo said:
The Geneva Conventions don’t apply to those who don’t abide by them.

uh, WE abide by them.

we signed them.

ergo, they apply to us.

winning said:
This stuff is always so funny. Because something sucks doesn’t qualify it as torture. Let me ’splain something to you good folks. Torture involves broken bones, blood, electrical current to the genitals, and holes in kneecaps, elbows, wrists, and skulls put there by devices bearing 3/8″ spinning shanks.

But then, that’s not what this is about, is it? It’s all about diminishing anything that the previous administration may have done to help facilitate recent events.

Kind of a shame that progressives refuse to let history just play out without trying to re-write their political opponents out of it. It was a great day in America on Sunday night and Monday morning, but the current administration has been stepping on their own dicks ever since. These guys could f**k up a wet dream.

get back to us after you’ve been boarded, tough guy.

cjd ohio 1 said:
so you approve of shooting unarmed terrorist?

Or bombing grandchildren for that matter.

Edith Massey said:
She is Italian I think? Or she is living in Italy as an ex-pat and watching from the sidelines, I am sure it’s easy to denigrate our men and women in uniform and our President when you live in Europe.

who is denigrating our men and women in uniform? *eyeroll*
seems like it’s pretty easy for you to denigrate our former President, while living in the US…

don’t be a fool.

do i doubt waterboarding is awful? no. but those people are all alive, and still walking around, fine and dandy. do i care that we waterboarded three unlawful combatants that just murdered 3000 innocent people? nope. am i glad they did it, and obtained an important piece of intelligence that led to the capture and killing of Osama bin Laden, yep.

Pablo said:
The Geneva Conventions don’t apply to those who don’t abide by them.

As per our Constitution they DO apply to US.

There seems to a couple different groups at play:

1) Those who say waterboarding ISN’T torture so it’s OK, and

2) Those who say torturing people is A-OK.

It’s tough to separate the idiots from the human slime.

Mia Kulper said:
sarainitaly said:
Guess you have no problem with the enemy decapitating and torturing our soldiers, civilian aid workers, and journalists, and murdering 3000 civilians, regardless of whether we waterboarded three people, or not.
–
So you want us to be just like them?

Yea, cuz those two things are EXACTLY alike! *eyeroll*

grafxmail7 said:
What’s your problem with General Colin Powell???

4 star General Colin Powell???

Secretary of State Colin Powell???

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell???

Oh wait……that’s right….OxyCon…..it’s because it’s African American Colin Powell.

What a CLOWN you are OxyCon…..What a CLOWN!!!!

How cute, the href=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg>Internet Bridge Troll® is stalking me. What’s the matter no-life troll, everyone else ignoring you?

sarainitaly said:
sarainitaly said:
Guess you have no problem with the enemy decapitating and torturing our soldiers, civilian aid workers, and journalists, and murdering 3000 civilians, regardless of whether we waterboarded three people, or not.
–
So you want us to be just like them?
Yea, cuz those two things are EXACTLY alike! *eyeroll*

Did you really just roll your eyes at me? What are you, 12?

Mia Kulper said:
Did you really just roll your eyes at me? What are you, 12?

yep.
nope, but i’m wondering about you…

So here’s the real question…

If information was gained by waterboarding KSM, information that was used to find bin Laden, can you (and will you) argue that it shouldn’t have happened, and to maintain our “morality” it shouldn’t have been used in the hunt?

Is that an argument you can put together?

Edith Massey said:
Not to mention after WWII we sentenced Japanese officers to death for waterboarding prisoners.

Pablo said:
No, we didn’t.

Yes, we did. The charges included water torture and a host of other war crimes.

Pablo said:
Edith Massey said:
Not to mention after WWII we sentenced Japanese officers to death for waterboarding prisoners.

No, we didn’t.

.
I’ve seen this same claim many times here.

How convenient that none of them mention the various and drastically different methods the Japanese called “water boarding”.

Additionally, as best as I can tell after spending hours researching it after that same claim was made years ago not one Japanese was convicted or executed on the basis of water boarding alone. That was always a minor part of their “crimes” that included executing POWs and civilians, deliberate starvation to death of both POWs and civilians etc.

There is absolutely no equivalency on any level between the two.

OxyCon said:
How cute, the href=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsEe7qBgvg>Internet Bridge Troll® is stalking me. What’s the matter no-life troll, everyone else ignoring you?

HAHAHAHAHA!!! This coming from the 40+ year Democrat now Teabagger that you are??? HILARIOUS!!!

You equate popularity on a board full of trolls as a life??? WOW!! Looks you’re the one who needs to get a life!!!

You never did answer what’s your problem with Colin Powell????

Pablo said:
The Geneva Conventions don’t apply to those who don’t abide by them.

You’re dangerously, contemptibly stupid. The Geneva Conventions absolutely and explicitly bind all signatories, which includes the United States, to abide by them even in conflicts with countries that do not.

Mia Kulper said:
Did you really just roll your eyes at me? What are you, 12?

You just got pissed off over a damn
Comment Board EYEROLL ?

ROTFLMAO

RowdyHoward said:
I think he is speaking of the terrorists not abiding them…however, we claim to be so upstanding why do we need to sink to their level. It’s a touchy subject, I still believe we could have gotten information in other ways…America is clever remember? Not dumb and abrasive…well under Bush, maybe.

Grab some balls, quit living like a feminist. Guess if someone had your neck with a knife under your chin you wouldn’t want any torture going on to save it. Yeah Right!

“Last night former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld told Bill O’Reilly waterboarding is not torture, and in response, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, former Chief of Staff for Secretary of State Colin Powell appeared on The Ed Show and told Ed Schultz that Rumsfeld is plainly “delusional.”

When I see people pointing fingers, as did the Col did against Rumsfeld, usually that person is the one who is (in this case) delusional.

It is time for the Col to play a lot more golf…most likely he would find few people to play with…Oh well!

Pablo said:
No, we didn’t.

You are correct. Well, sort of. A Japanese soldier, Yukio Asano, was tried and convicted for waterboarding by a US tribunal. He just wasn’t sentenced to death. You can look it up. Moreover, we have a clear precedent for considering waterboarding not only torture, but a court-martialable offense.

In case Mediaite doesn’t do html here’s the link again:
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/hotline/2007/10/is-waterboarding-torture-judge-mukasey.php

Those pesky facts again.

Rgentum said:
You’re dangerously, contemptibly stupid. The Geneva Conventions absolutely and explicitly bind all signatories, which includes the United States, to abide by them even in conflicts with countries that do not.

al-Qaeda is not a country. They’re unlawful combatants who do not abide by the conventions and aren’t entitled to their protections.

Rgentum said:
You are correct. Well, sort of.

No, not sort of. We did not execute anyone for “waterboarding” Nor did we execute anyone for water torture, which is a better term to describe what the Japanese did.

Moreover, we have a clear precedent for considering waterboarding not only torture, but a court-martialable offense.

You can’t court martial spooks, dude.

Mia Kulper says:
Somebody challenged Sean Hannity to be waterboarded under controlled conditions to see how long he could take it. The bet would have won him a large donation to the charity of his choice. Hannity pussed out…
________________________________

Hannity, being the promoter he is, agreed to do it but on his terms. If I recall right, and I may be thinking of another occurrence on this detail, he wanted Olberman to donate to a charity Hannity supported, not one Olberman did. Why would it be in Hannity’s interest to be waterboarded to donate to a left-loon’s charity? If Olberman was serious he would have offered to donate to a charity of Hannity’s choosing, which Hannity would have promoted the heck out of (because that’s his style).

sarainitaly said:
i will, got their numbers?

and why don’t you tell the victims of 9/11 that you feel bad for the 3 terrorists who plotted their murders because they were waterboarded…oh wait, you can’t. they’re dead.

Guess you have no problem with the enemy decapitating and torturing our soldiers, civilian aid workers, and journalists, and murdering 3000 civilians, regardless of whether we waterboarded three people, or not.

GRAPHIC:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/183865.php

Like I said earlier I have enough faith in our Constitution and our rule of law to even go up against Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and anyone else. It is too bad that Republicans have outed themselves to only pay lip service to loving our Constitution and our freedoms. I believe I live in the greatest country in the world, part of the thing that makes us the greatest is we respect our founding documents and believe anyone who falls under our jurisdiction should be awarded those same rights. My father fought for this country in an unpopular war, and was treated horribly when he got home. But he fought because he wanted to defend the very documents that gave him his freedoms, I believe your position is essentially unamerican, you have no faith in our Constitution which means you have no faith in the United States of America.

Edith Massey said:
Then in future conflict when our troops are tortured or killed in custody according to you all the country has to do is say “well we don’t abide by the Geneva Conventions so it doesn’t apply to us”.

I don’t see the Hague getting up in arms over the treatment of our captured guys, which generally makes what happened to KSM look like a picnic. In case you were unclear on them, the GC’s don’t approve of summary beheadings.

Rgentum said:
You are correct. Well, sort of. A Japanese soldier, Yukio Asano, was tried and convicted for waterboarding by a US tribunal. He just wasn’t sentenced to death. You can look it up. Moreover, we have a clear precedent for considering waterboarding not only torture, but a court-martialable offense.

Those pesky facts again.

Yes, they are. Which is why you failed to mention this Japanese soldier was sadistically torturing people for pure pleasure. What we did was waterboard some mass murderers who were promising more mass murder. If you cant see the difference, is probably because you’re a moron.

Pablo said:
al-Qaeda is not a country. They’re unlawful combatants who do not abide by the conventions and aren’t entitled to their protections.

No, you are wrong. Well, you are 99% wrong. To the extent there is such a thing as an “unlawful combatant” in international law, it means they don’t get a pass for what they do on the battlefield and they can be prosecuted as criminals (as opposed to combatants, who, if captured, enjoy the protection of getting to go home after the conflict is over, all things being equal – in that small sense you are right). It does not mean that there are no laws that apply to them so you can do whatever you want. As others have noted, correctly, the United States is bound by its own laws and standards, even if the people it’s fighting are not.

Edith Massey said:
Like I said earlier I have enough faith in our Constitution and our rule of law to even go up against Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and anyone else. It is too bad that Republicans have outed themselves to only pay lip service to loving our Constitution and our freedoms. I believe I live in the greatest country in the world, part of the thing that makes us the greatest is we respect our founding documents and believe anyone who falls under our jurisdiction should be awarded those same rights. My father fought for this country in an unpopular war, and was treated horribly when he got home. But he fought because he wanted to defend the very documents that gave him his freedoms, I believe your position is essentially unamerican, you have no faith in our Constitution which means you have no faith in the United States of America.

it appears president obama does not have the faith either, so did you just call him unamerican?

darladoon said:
uh, WE abide by them.

we signed them.

ergo, they apply to us.

You should read them, idiot.

Dronetek said:
Yes, they are. Which is why you failed to mention this Japanese soldier was sadistically torturing people for pure pleasure. What we did was waterboard some mass murderers who were promising more mass murder. If you cant see the difference, is probably because you’re a moron.

No, see, by your standards, anyone who does anything to a “bad guy” is justified, because he’s a bad guy. Your standards are no standards at all. Which is OK if you are a war criminal, but there are these international conventions that require humane treatment of people in our custody, and a concept of due process…look, this is all takes some effort to understand, you’d have to read something, as opposed to just watch a few episodes of 24, so you’re probably not interested.

Pablo said:
al-Qaeda is not a country. They’re unlawful combatants who do not abide by the conventions and aren’t entitled to their protections.

Pablo said:
I don’t see the Hague getting up in arms over the treatment of our captured guys, which generally makes what happened to KSM look like a picnic. In case you were unclear on them, the GC’s don’t approve of summary beheadings.

I know you are really slow brained but are you aware that you just crushed your previous argument with your last statement?

You first claimed that Al Qaeda isn’t a country therefore are not protected under the Geneva Conventions, then in your second statement you say that “the GC’s don’t approve of summary beheadings”.

But according to your logic these rogue terrorist groups like Al Qadea are not countries therefore the GC’s do not protect them, then if that is true the same would apply if they behead someone, according to you they aren’t under the jurisdiction of the GCs therefore can continue to behead civilians at will.

None too bright is you, son?

This guy (Rumsfeld) is the worst.

By the way before you Jokers start throwing mud, they both worked for your hero W.

jo hoochie said:
Grab some balls, quit living like a feminist. Guess if someone had your neck with a knife under your chin you wouldn’t want any torture going on to save it. Yeah Right!

Hahaha! Grab some balls huh? Where did you learn that, West Hollywood? Fight a knife to your neck with torture? Sounds rather unproductive way of handling a knife to one’s neck.

Hey ball grabber…try and think before you type.

cjd ohio 1 said:
it appears president obama does not have the faith either, so did you just call him unamerican?

I have respect for the Office of the President of the United States and will refrain from calling him names, I will leave that to you teabaggers.

skyfet said:
This guy (Rumsfeld) is the worst. .

true

Edith Massey said:
I have respect for the Office of the President of the United States and will refrain from calling him names, I will leave that to you teabaggers.

so you can call certain people unamerican, because they dont agree with you, but not others……partisan hack

RowdyHoward said:
get back to us after you’ve been boarded, tough guy.

Several journalists have volunteered to be waterboarded, and it sucked bad, and every single one that I’ve heard said it was the worst thing they’ve ever done.

I haven’t heard of a single journalist who’s volunteered to have their kneecaps drilled into, their genitals shocked with high voltage, or to have large nails driven into various bones.

That’s the difference. If someone volunteers to see what it’s like, it ain’t torture. But in your tidy little world of hatred and propaganda, all that matters is what your handlers tell you, which above all, is to hate the right.

Rgentum said:
You’re dangerously, contemptibly stupid. The Geneva Conventions absolutely and explicitly bind all signatories, which includes the United States, to abide by them even in conflicts with countries that do not.

Where on the map can I find the country of “Muslim Terrorists”?

Rgentum said:
Moreover, we have a clear precedent for considering waterboarding not only torture, but a court-martialable offense.

Yeah, those military guys who did the waterboarding should be court martialed. Oh. wait a minute ..

Yup, those pesky facts suck, don’t they?

Edith Massey said:
I know you are really slow brained but are you aware that you just crushed your previous argument with your last statement?

You first claimed that Al Qaeda isn’t a country therefore are not protected under the Geneva Conventions, then in your second statement you say that “the GC’s don’t approve of summary beheadings”.

But according to your logic these rogue terrorist groups like Al Qadea are not countries therefore the GC’s do not protect them, then if that is true the same would apply if they behead someone, according to you they aren’t under the jurisdiction of the GCs therefore can continue to behead civilians at will.

None too bright is you, son?

You, ma’am, are an idiot. The Hague is the seat of the International Criminal Court, not the Home of the Geneva Conventions. Obviously, al-Qaeda can continue to behead people, as evidenced by the fact that they do it. Except for when they get killed, which they also can do quite nicely. My point is that the ICC isn’t getting it’s hands dirty with them. We are.

Mia Kulper said:
Somebody challenged Sean Hannity to be waterboarded under controlled conditions to see how long he could take it. The bet would have won him a large donation to the charity of his choice.
Hannity pussed out, like a typical “limp-wrist,” (in the Teabagger vernacular).

teccec said:
Hannity, being the promoter he is, agreed to do it but on his terms. If I recall right…

No, you recall it wrong.

He challenged Sean Hannity to be waterboarded for charity since Hannity was being such a loudmouth but as I said, Hannity totally wussed out.

Hannity says it’s not torture but he was too chicken to be waterboarded, even under very controlled conditions where he could quit at any time.

Keith Olbermann Takes up Sean Hannity’s Waterboarding Challenge
On MSNBC’s Countdown last night, host Keith Olbermann took up Fox News personality Sean Hannity’s waterboard charity challenge. Olbermann offered to give $1,000 to charity for every second Hannity lasted while being waterboarded. Needless to say, Hannity has not responded.

Edith Massey said:
My father fought for this country in an unpopular war, and was treated horribly when he got home.

Edith Massey said:
Cool an internet Vet. Gotta love those people.

Rgentum said:
Which is OK if you are a war criminal, but there are these international conventions that require humane treatment of people in our custody, and a concept of due process…

So, what do you think about conducting unauthorized acts of war within the borders of a sovereign nation with whom we are not at war?

Let me guess: It’s OK when Barack does it.

I would love to see both Cheney and Rumsfeld waterboarded. Now, that would be real special. Cheney who skipped out on serving in the military but who was never afraid to send someone else’s sons and daughters into foreign lands, and Rumsfeld who was a weekend warrior.

LET’S GET IT DONE.

People that honestly care about this issue need to watch this:

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/4/former_military_interrogator_matthew_alexander_despite

Mia Kulper said:
Hannity says it’s not torture but he was too chicken to be waterboarded

The military’s not torture, either, but there’s plenty of people who’re too chicken for that.

As I mentioned, there’s two different groups (at least) in support of waterboarding.

There’s group #1 who thinks that waterboarding is NOT torture and is therefore OK, and then
there’s group #2 who thinks that torturing people is A-OK because they think it might keep them safe.

Who is who?

Can we at least separate ignorant from the real scumbags?

winning said:
The military’s not torture, either, but there’s plenty of people who’re too chicken for that.

Like Hannity.

winning said:
Several journalists have volunteered to be waterboarded, and it sucked bad, and every single one that I’ve heard said it was the worst thing they’ve ever done.

I haven’t heard of a single journalist who’s volunteered to have their kneecaps drilled into, their genitals shocked with high voltage, or to have large nails driven into various bones.

That’s the difference. If someone volunteers to see what it’s like, it ain’t torture. But in your tidy little world of hatred and propaganda, all that matters is what your handlers tell you, which above all, is to hate the right.

Definition of TORTURE

1a : anguish of body or mind : agony b : something that causes agony or pain

Are you going to argue with a dictionary now?

Mia Kulper said:
As I mentioned, there’s two different groups (at least) in support of waterboarding.

There’s group #1 who thinks that waterboarding is NOT torture and is therefore OK, and then
there’s group #2 who thinks that torturing people is A-OK because they think it might keep them safe.

Who is who?

Can we at least separate ignorant from the real scumbags?

Can you stand in 2 different lines?

RowdyHoward said:
Definition of TORTURE

1a : anguish of body or mind : agony b : something that causes agony or pain

Are you going to argue with a dictionary now?

Nope. LA traffic is torture. Thanks for clearing that up.

Mia Kulper said:
As I mentioned, there’s two different groups (at least) in support of waterboarding.
There’s group #1 who thinks that waterboarding is NOT torture and is therefore OK, and then
there’s group #2 who thinks that torturing people is A-OK because they think it might keep them safe.
Who is who?
Can we at least separate ignorant from the real scumbags?

Pablo said:
Can you stand in 2 different lines?

Thanks for your candor.

Pablo said:
Nope. LA traffic is torture. Thanks for clearing that up.

Now that, I can agree with!!

Mia Kulper said:
Thanks for your candor.

Well can you? Are you a very large person?

winning said:
Where on the map can I find the country of “Muslim Terrorists”?

Um, let me try in put it in terms you’d understand. Let’s say you drink, I dunno, some Sam’s Club Bourbon and Hawaiian Punch and then go out rip-roaring around on your four wheeler. Cops pull you over, and you’re drunk. You – like “muslim terrorists” – are acting outside the law. Does this mean cops can stomp your head into the curb and take your wallet? No. And it’s not ’cause yer a ‘merkin, goddangit. It’s because they are constrained, not only by the constitution, but also by laws (cops who brutalize suspects are not charged with “violating the constitution”, they are charged with violating a law). They don’t get to violate the law just because the other guy did it first. Likewise, we have elected to be bound by various international conventions, such as the Geneva Conventions. We don’t get to “opt out” of them just because someone we’re dealing with isn’t playing by the rules. It’s part of the sucky part of being the good guy. Here’s another example. We are also part of conventions outlawing the use of chemical weapons. Are we allowed to use them against “muslim terrorists” just because they are not parties to that convention? What about the insurgents in Iraq? They were not a force affiliated with any country, so they weren’t a party to any convention either. Could we gas them, like Saddam gassed the Kurds? I would say no. Your “logic” would lead to yes. Which is why you are wrong.

winning said:
Yeah, those military guys who did the waterboarding should be court martialed. Oh. wait a minute .. Yup, those pesky facts suck, don’t they?

Um, look, rather than explain MEJA and the UCMJ and blah blah blah, I’ll just say, waterboarding = assault. If you’re in the military and assault someone, you could get court-martialed. If you’re a civilian and assault someone, you will probably get tried. It’s still illegal. I have to say, your failure to understand anything is pretty impressive. Do you work hard at that?

RowdyHoward said:
Now that, I can agree with!!

Yep. And if you shoot somebody without instantly killing them, that’s torture. In fact, any time you wound somebody, that’s torture. Right?

RowdyHoward said:
Definition of TORTURE

1a : anguish of body or mind : agony b : something that causes agony or pain

Are you going to argue with a dictionary now?

Don’t care. I also notice that you left out the # 1 definition:

“the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. ”

Typical of leftists.

Look, I think it’s a positive thing if this technique gets results…I do think there are other methods we can use.

Do I have sympathy for KSM? Hell no!

I do think it sends a message to the world about us not giving a shit when it comes to regulations.

That being said, in the future when we are treated with the same loose look at regulations…we will have no room to complain.

Despite what certain untraveled Americans think about this, we do still live in a world with other countries whose power will surpass ours. It may be to our advantage to take the higher road in the future.

Either way, OBL was taken out and true Americans are pleased.

Pablo said:
Yep. And if you shoot somebody without instantly killing them, that’s torture. In fact, any time you wound somebody, that’s torture. Right?

Why would anybody hope to have an intelligent conversation with you?

Pablo said:
Yep. And if you shoot somebody without instantly killing them, that’s torture. In fact, any time you wound somebody, that’s torture. Right?

Did you commence the shooting with the intention of coercing information or cooperation from the shootee without actually intending to kill him?

RowdyHoward said:
I do think it sends a message to the world about us not giving a shit when it comes to regulations.

So what do you think about us violating Pakistani sovereignty and committing an act of war and several crimes last weekend?

I’m OK with it. Are you, and if so, why? Do you care about regulations no matter what? Or not?

Mia Kulper said:
Why would anybody hope to have an intelligent conversation with you?

Oh, I’ve had many intelligent conversations here. Just not with idiots. So, you should not hope to be involved in one. It’s impossible.

Pablo said:
So, what do you think about conducting unauthorized acts of war within the borders of a sovereign nation with whom we are not at war? Let me guess: It’s OK when Barack does it.

You actually make a good point. Except we didn’t go to “war” with Iraq, Grenada, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, or Panama, to name a few – and we invaded them. In this case I’d say it’s pretty simple: Pakistan is sovereign, and if they say the action was an illegal violation of their sovereignty, then it becomes sort of an issue. But they haven’t said that, and I’m guessing they won’t. I mean, if history is any indication, if the GOP were to go after Obama because his actions in Pakistan were an illegal violation of the country’s sovereignty, every future Republican president will probably be impeached for the same thing (considering the actions of Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2).

"Real" American said:
Did you commence the shooting with the intention of coercing information or cooperation from the shootee without actually intending to kill him?

That isn’t part of the definition Rowdy is using, nor is it a prerequisite to torture.

Rgentum said:
In this case I’d say it’s pretty simple: Pakistan is sovereign, and if they say the action was an illegal violation of their sovereignty, then it becomes sort of an issue.

Wait, it either is or it isn’t. Whether Pakistan makes an issue of it is irrelevant to whether it was a violation of the law. That only speaks to consequences, not to our commitment to the rule of law.

Pablo said:
So what do you think about us violating Pakistani sovereignty and committing an act of war and several crimes last weekend? I’m OK with it. Are you, and if so, why? Do you care about regulations no matter what? Or not?

I think we are about halfway down the slippery slope Boosh and Sheeny started us down. Extraordinary rendition. Gitmo. Foreign interrogation centers. Patriot Act. TSA. DHS. Invasion of sovereign countries on false pretenses. The list goes on….

We will probably never return to the top.

winning said:
Don’t care. I also notice that you left out the # 1 definition:

“the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. ”

Typical of leftists.

Of course, depending on the dictionary you use…your other definition is a bit more specific, which may or may not help your point.

The debate is not if it’s torture…the debate is if it was warranted…the only reason Rummy and Cheney don’t use the term torture, is because you’ll have the public and the press all over them with semantics and how they are violating the constitution.

Believe what you will regarding that…regarding waterboarding as torture..it is. You can’t have it both ways man!!

Pablo said:
Oh, I’ve had many intelligent conversations here. Just not with idiots. So, you should not hope to be involved in one. It’s impossible.

So do you thinbk torturing people is OK if it will keep you safe?

"Real" American said:
I think we are about halfway down the slippery slope Boosh and Sheeny started us down. Extraordinary rendition. Gitmo. Foreign interrogation centers. Patriot Act. TSA. DHS. Invasion of sovereign countries on false pretenses. The list goes on….

We will probably never return to the top.

Well said.

"Real" American said:
I think we are about halfway down the slippery slope Boosh and Sheeny started us down. Extraordinary rendition. Gitmo. Foreign interrogation centers. Patriot Act. TSA. DHS. Invasion of sovereign countries on false pretenses. The list goes on….

We will probably never return to the top.

If you’re going to quote my question, you ought to answer it.

"Real" American said:
I think we are about halfway down the slippery slope Boosh and Sheeny started us down. Extraordinary rendition. Gitmo. Foreign interrogation centers. Patriot Act. TSA. DHS. Invasion of sovereign countries on false pretenses. The list goes on….

I remember the simpler days, before Bush and Cheney, where our biggest pressing issue was whether or not President Clinton’s penis had violated the “Rule Of Law” and what we should do wiht all that budget surplus revenue.

Pablo said:
Wait, it either is or it isn’t. Whether Pakistan makes an issue of it is irrelevant to whether it was a violation of the law. That only speaks to consequences, not to our commitment to the rule of law.

Not really. If I’m in your house, whether I’m there legally or illegally depends on whether or not I have your permission. If someone sees me go into your house, take your blender, and walk out with it, and you find out about it but never say anything – or just say “man I hate it when he comes over and takes my blender,” there’s little evidence I did anything illegal. In fact, in that case, it sounds like I at least had your constructive permission.

"Real" American said:
I think we are about halfway down the slippery slope Boosh and Sheeny started us down. Extraordinary rendition. Gitmo. Foreign interrogation centers. Patriot Act. TSA. DHS. Invasion of sovereign countries on false pretenses. The list goes on…. We will probably never return to the top.

You call it a “SLIPPERY SLOPE”… I think of it more like an AWESOME WATERSLIDE!!!!!!!111 I love EVERYTHING on that list because it keeps us SAFE!!!!!111

lol

Rgentum said:
You – like “muslim terrorists” – are acting outside the law. Does this mean cops can stomp your head into the curb and take your wallet?

Well, they can take my wallet, and if someone else were in immanent danger, I presume that I’d be interrogated, badly. But they wouldn’t stomp my head, as your quaint little straw man suggests, just as captive terrorists didn’t have their heads stomped into the curb.

Rgentum said:
we have elected to be bound by various international conventions, such as the Geneva Conventions. We don’t get to “opt out” of them just because someone we’re dealing with isn’t playing by the rules.

Even though waterboarding isn’t torture, international terrorists act under no recognized authority, and so aren’t protected by The Geneva Convention. Domestic cops carry hollow point bullets, which are banned by the Geneva Convention. This is because criminals act on their own or as part of a criminal conspiracy, and to suggest that international criminals should be treated any better is just plain dumb. And they haven’t broken any US laws, which is why our court system doesn’t apply.

This is always an interesting debate. I do think it comes down to this. There are people who say water boarding is ok and say it is not torture in order to gain information from a captured terrorist. Then there are the people who say it is torture and it is not ok to get information of any kind with this method. My question to the pro water boarding people is what do you consider torture, and if you can get valuable information via what you consider torture is that ok? And my question to the anti water boarding people is If water boarding is torture what else do you consider torture that is ok to do(sleep deprevation,puttting hoods on subjects heads ect). Its not easy for me to make up my mind on these type of things there is a ton of gray area. I do know this, as a cop none of these are approved or legal interogation methods and that applies to the biggest scumbags this country has, aka child murderers, rapist ,seriel killers ect) All in all a very interesting topic.

winning said:
And they haven’t broken any US laws, which is why our court system doesn’t apply.

Acts of terrorism against the United States, and conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism against the United States, are against the laws of the United States.

Aren’t they?

Pablo said:
Wait, it either is or it isn’t. Whether Pakistan makes an issue of it is irrelevant to whether it was a violation of the law. That only speaks to consequences, not to our commitment to the rule of law.

For what it’s worth, I never thought Bush should be impeached. Not that he didn’t necessarily do anything illegal. Most Presidents, including and maybe especially Lincoln, stretch if not break the law when they are in office to accomplish certain ends. I believe there is a bigger picture to consider. GOP impeaches Clinton, Dems impeach Bush – it becomes a bad joke at the country’s expense. I think Nancy Pelosi was absolutely correct to say that impeachment was off the table as soon as she took over as Speaker. Of course, no one gives her credit for that – and to their discredit, the GOP has not followed suit and several of them are already looking for any excuse to impeach Obama.

hehehehehehehehe…..oh boy…..you wingnuts are taking a beating….you freaks still want to waterboard people..you may want to consider the fact that waterboarding is a crime…its a shame rumsfeld, cheney and bush cant travel outside the country….war criminals, all of them…..its just a matter of time…took 10 years to get bin laden, bush era criminals will get their day in court too….my only hope is that some of you dumbasses chain yourselves to bush or cheney so you’ll get what they get…believe me…YOU DESERVE IT…i cant wait till Obama starts his 2nd term, hes gonna go after the repubs then…justice will prevail…Obama is ruthless, cant you tell???..mess with Obama too much and you wake up dead….just ask bin laden or those pirates…Obama dont play…..

Rgentum said:
No, see, by your standards, anyone who does anything to a “bad guy” is justified, because he’s a bad guy.

Not true. These guys were part of a plot that killed 3,000+ and were promising more. Its justified to waterboard bad guys when they’re mass murders and promising to murder more.

This is simple stuff, but you dont get it because you’re an idiot.

Pablo said:
If you’re going to quote my question, you ought to answer it.

I think we can all agree that the outcome is a positive one. (OBL being dead and all)

The part where the views change is when we look at the way our government has handled everything.

If you are going to be mad about how the info was obtained and how prisoners were treated, you need to also observe how there were several international laws broken to kill this maniac.

I also agree, we are on a slippery slope, and if we aren’t careful we will once again be united as a country due to a greater enemy attacking us

Rgentum said:
For what it’s worth, I never thought Bush should be impeached. Not that he didn’t necessarily do anything illegal. Most Presidents, including and maybe especially Lincoln, stretch if not break the law when they are in office to accomplish certain ends. I believe there is a bigger picture to consider. GOP impeaches Clinton, Dems impeach Bush – it becomes a bad joke at the country’s expense. I think Nancy Pelosi was absolutely correct to say that impeachment was off the table as soon as she took over as Speaker. Of course, no one gives her credit for that – and to their discredit, the GOP has not followed suit and several of them are already looking for any excuse to impeach Obama.

Also…well said

winning said:
Even though waterboarding isn’t torture, international terrorists act under no recognized authority, and so aren’t protected by The Geneva Convention. Domestic cops carry hollow point bullets, which are banned by the Geneva Convention. This is because criminals act on their own or as part of a criminal conspiracy, and to suggest that international criminals should be treated any better is just plain dumb. And they haven’t broken any US laws, which is why our court system doesn’t apply.

The issue is whether waterboarding is torture, and that’s the only place any honest debate should take place. The idea that it’s OK to torture someone because they are a criminal is a terrible and dangerous argument. As for whether it’s torture – I don’t know of anyone who’s been waterboarded that says it isn’t. This includes some poor sap radio host who volunteered to be waterboarded and didn’t last ten seconds. He was some neocon talking head, like Hannity, but with more balls.

And cops carry hollow points because the Geneva Conventions apply to international armed conflicts and when you shoot someone with a NATO round it goes through them and keeps going. It’s the same reason air marshalls use them. Don’t want that on the playground or in the fuselage.

And UCMJ = US law. For the most part (particularly assault) the standards are identical. So if someone does something that meets the UCMJ’s standards for assault, it will meet the federal legal definition for assault.

winning said:
Well, they can take my wallet, and if someone else were in immanent danger, I presume that I’d be interrogated, badly. But they wouldn’t stomp my head, as your quaint little straw man suggests, just as captive terrorists didn’t have their heads stomped into the curb.

They could not keep your wallet. And if they interrogated you “badly” – say by waterboarding you, or making you stand in a stress position for 8 hours, or beating you with a phone book, they would be prosecuted, because it’s illegal. There is no exigent circumstances exception to the “not allowed to tune up suspects” rule.

Dronetek said:
Not true. These guys were part of a plot that killed 3,000+ and were promising more. Its justified to waterboard bad guys when they’re mass murders and promising to murder more. This is simple stuff, but you dont get it because you’re an idiot.

Oh it’s simpler than that. I get that they are bad. We are not bad. You see? Good guys play by the rules even when the bad guys don’t. That’s why they’re the good guys.

Mia Kulper said:
Acts of terrorism against the United States, and conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism against the United States, are against the laws of the United States.

Aren’t they?

Yes, you’re right, in the case of KSM, that’s certainly true, and he has been the focus. I was speaking more generally in terms of the poor mook in Afghanistan who was handed a gun and told to go snipe at Americans, or go lob a bomb into some place where foreigners gather. He’s not acting as an agent of Afghanistan or any other nation, he’s simply a criminal terrorist.

Guys like KSM present a special case, and we’re kind of developing our reactions as we go in the last several years. They’re acting as part of an international terrorist organization, yet no nation will claim them, and they act in the name of a global religion. Can’t imagine how they might expect Geneva Convention protections, even in some leftists wildest hallucinations.

Well thats an interesting point winning but this is kinda my problem. Lets agree that the Geneva Convention doesnt apply to KSM. So is it then ok to treat him in whatever way we choose while he is in captivity? Dont wanna argue just askin.

winning said:
Guys like KSM present a special case, and we’re kind of developing our reactions as we go in the last several years. They’re acting as part of an international terrorist organization, yet no nation will claim them, and they act in the name of a global religion. Can’t imagine how they might expect Geneva Convention protections, even in some leftists wildest hallucinations.

Terrosits are criminals. Unless they’re part of a nation’s regular army, they’re not soldiers.

Our nations has dealt with terrorists and criminals since we built our first courthouse.

Those who suggest that our Constitution and our justice systems can’t handle terrorists/criminals are selling us all short.

Oops… Terrorists, not Terrosits.

Karl Spensen said:
You call it a “SLIPPERY SLOPE”… I think of it more like an AWESOME WATERSLIDE!!!!!!!111 I love EVERYTHING on that list because it keeps us SAFE!!!!!111

‘Awesome waterslide’ lol. You slay me. :) Permission to use that one, sir?

sarainitaly said:
who is denigrating our men and women in uniform? *eyeroll*seems like it’s pretty easy for you to denigrate our former President, while living in the US… don’t be a fool. do i doubt waterboarding is awful? no. but those people are all alive, and still walking around, fine and dandy. do i care that we waterboarded three unlawful combatants that just murdered 3000 innocent people? nope. am i glad they did it, and obtained an important piece of intelligence that led to the capture and killing of Osama bin Laden, yep.

And after that murder of 3000 innocent US citizens, we went over to Iraq and Afghanistan and murdered a sh*tload more. But since they are brown and not a Christian, I guess that doesn’t matter?

We dropped 2 nuclear bombs on civilian populations in Japan after Pearl Harbor (estimated death toll of ~2100 or so). The estimated death toll for Nagasaki/Hiroshima is anywhere from 150K to 225K or so in the semi-immediate aftermath.

We can go on and on and on.

If your moral fiber is okay with inflicting torture on another human being in the name of America, then you’re not as noble of a person as you think you are.Pathetically righteous, maybe, but not noble. We tortured and murdered people in our custody post-9/11. It’s a dark, black stain on our nation’s soul. The same way Nagasaki/Hiroshima is stain on our soul.

Torture is less effective than other interrogation techniques. The ticking time bomb scenario is a “24″ fantasy only. There’s no frakking Jack Bauer. There is no “now”. This is an intelligence game and you’re on the losing side with your stance. Intelligence is a long term game, not short term. And yet, many Americans had no problem with Valerie Plame’s cover being blown. Forget her, forget her husband. Focus on her sources and her covers throughout time. People were burned and our arrogant leaders did it and made no apologies about it.

Us torturing them is a recruiting tool for them/their families. We have the horrible Abu Grahib pictures out there to show how low we can go with our torturing. And yet how many of those detainees have we begun to prosecute in some way shape or form? How many years did innocent Chinese Uighers sit in Gitmo before being released? How many years after their release was ordered did it take to release them to somewhere?

We suffered a blow in September 2001. A tragic, terrible blow. And then we unleashed our inner *sshole on the Muslim world. It’s not a positive on our Nation and history will not (and should not) look kindly upon us.

And, we still don’t have the Towers rebuilt, almost a decade out.

Sooo… no takers to answer my question?

If information was gained via waterboarding which led to bin Laden’s killing, was the wrong and should it be argued, illegal? Will you argue it… or are you too scared to take that position?

Rgentum said:
UCMJ = US law.

UCMJ applies only to military.

Rgentum said:
They could not keep your wallet.

Yes, they could. They’d just have to give it back when I got out of jail.

Note that GOPsters are always into “tough-guy” talk & tactics. They also make up 90% of the “never-serveds.”

Not all men in uniform are worthy of the uniform, this Colonel is clearly a traitor.
http://libertarians4freedom.blogspot.com/

Gorgegirl said:
I would love to see both Cheney and Rumsfeld waterboarded. Now, that would be real special. Cheney who skipped out on serving in the military but who was never afraid to send someone else’s sons and daughters into foreign lands, and Rumsfeld who was a weekend warrior.

LET’S GET IT DONE.

And I guess Obama should have gone on over and killed Osama himself instead of risking any military lives according to you right?

RowdyHoward said:
I do think it sends a message to the world about us not giving a shit when it comes to regulations.

Come again.

I seem to remember details of the prescribed method that dictated everything up to the amount of water used within certain time limits, medical personnel in attendance etc.

This was not done willy nilly on whims.

Would I want it done to me or mine. NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Would I want it done to anybody for any or no reason. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Would I have wanted it done to stop the perpretrators of 911 and many other such atrocities around the world to prevent any such future in the works events. HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is exactly what we did and I am grateful for all the horror that we might be talking about now but aren’t b/c we did it.

This is an academic debate for us here but it is and was a life and death under horrific circumstances for many around the world.

Out of the comments here I take it I’m the only one who thought this was pretty spot on?

This dude has got to have his home address sewn into his jacket.

Most ex–military personnel are GOPers…you know, champions of truth, justice, and the American way!

Geogegirl:

How about water-boarding Obimbo for acting on the intelligence water-boarding produced? Or, is it only a “good-thing” when it your Ox who’s directing the military to get involved in an illegal action on foreign soil? A bit of a hypocrite, aren’t you!

Rumsfeld is correct, by definition. The Colonel is wrong, by definition: “Torture” is purely for entertainment. Water Boarding is a form of “interrogation” with the intent to extract information. The United States of America does not “torture”!

The Purveyor of Rhetoric

OHHHHHH k purveyor so if the interrogation includes pulling out someones fingernails to try and extract information and the man who is doing this, is not entertained, is it still an interrogation? What the hell are you talking about. So you can be as cruel and brutal as you want as long as you are not entertained? This is why the left thinks the right is full of idiots.

Rgentum said:
Not really. If I’m in your house, whether I’m there legally or illegally depends on whether or not I have your permission.

We neither sought nor were granted permission to conduct that operation. It was by definition a violation of international law.

Rgentum said:
Oh it’s simpler than that. I get that they are bad. We are not bad. You see? Good guys play by the rules even when the bad guys don’t. That’s why they’re the good guys.

We didn’t play by the rules in nabbing Osama. How do you square that circle?

To: INSIDE GUY,

Respectfully, stop with the ad hominem.

I simply provided clinical definitions: Using “torture” provides pathologic gratification for the “torturer”.

“Interrogation”, by definition, is used to acquire information, NOT, pathologic gratification. Or, do you prefer to believe that the individuals who performed the “Water Boarding”, were enjoying themselves?

Ok so you are not stating an opinion you are stating a definition. I do not believe that the people who did the water boarding , although I nor you really have way of actually knowing that. And this is the problem with this debate. A clinical definition for torture does not mean a damn thing in this world we live in. A definition is a black and white statement in a huge world of gray. Once again say for the sake of argument, I break your face with a hammer trying to get information out of you but i did not enjoy it , is that torture?

and sorry typo I do not believe that the people who did the water boarding enjoyed it, ect

To: PABLO,

I have no intention of “play(ing) by the rules. I want to win the game, we MUST win this game, no matter what!

To: INSIDE GUY,

Can a Police Officer or a Soldier be trained to kill without joy?

To: INSIDE GUY, and PABLO, etc.

Good Night. Enjoyed the discussions.

Purveyor of Rhetoric

To Purveyor, Sorry my typing was really bad on that last statement. I agree that yes a cop or soldier can be trained to kill without joy. I better believe it cause im a cop lol. But if I as a cop want to get information out of a suspect and he doesnt talk, I cant break his legs and hate myself in the morning for doing it. I wouldnt have a job then. If I cross the line whether i had fun in doing it or not it is still wrong.

For those who support water-boarding, know this, C.I.A. interrogators working in Iraq stated it(water-boarding)and other enhanced techniques were responsible for the recruitment of most of the insurgents who went there to kill Americans. So in answer to the question, does torture create a flow of information, the answer is yes. It informed the terrorists to “Bring it on!”

Exactly, it just doesn’t make sense to risk making more enemies for little or no gain by means of torture when conventional interrogation methods are much more effective and accurate.

I hate to admit it but there are also Progressive Pukes in our military, and Wilkerson is one of them. If he would get his head out of Obama’s butt for more than five minutes, he may see the light of day. Too many of these cowardly officers are screwing up our military, and now that our worthless excuse of a President is allowing fags to openly serve in the military, we may as well throw up our hands and surrender to Canada or some other non threatening country, because soon, there will not be enough Real Men in the military to defend our Great Nation. Wake Up America! We need Obama another four years like we all need terminal cancer, we don’t!

winning said:
UCMJ applies only to military.

Rather than point out you’re conveniently taking quotes out of context to prove a non-point, I’ll just say, even chopping up something I said to take a snippet that you think you can refute, you’re wrong. Again. Read Article 2 of the UCMJ. The UCMJ applies to civilians.

Yes, they could. They’d just have to give it back when I got out of jail.

Like I said, they could not keep your wallet (see, when you take something from someone and don’t give it back, then you’re “keeping” it. When you take something and then give it back, you haven’t kept it).

Nice effort to win on semantics, though. Fail. But nice effort.

Pablo said:
We neither sought nor were granted permission to conduct that operation. It was by definition a violation of international law.

We didn’t? How do you know? We’ve been operating in Pakistan for a long time and they’ve never said anything. I think we did have their permission. I base that on the evidence that, as I said, they’ve been letting us operate there for a while and the same ether you pull your statement that we didn’t have permission from. So there.

We didn’t play by the rules in nabbing Osama. How do you square that circle?

LIke I said – sure “we” did. Funny thing about crimes – you have to prove them. Your mind is not evidence. There’s no evidence Pakistan did not tacitly grant approval of this mission. They’ve complained, sure – because if they don’t they’ve got a big problem on their hands. But they let us conduct that operation.

To: TEDDERMAN,

The assertion that water boarding resulted in increased recruitment for the Bad Guys, has been largely discredited. Much the same way the Prison at GITMO has. TEDDERMAN, Why do you feel compelled to argue your fellow countrymen behave as cowards, rather than as agents of fear?

There are more than enough Bad Guys to go around and “recruitment” is just fine. Perhaps, scaring the hell out of Islam, is worth a try? Or, would you prefer we all sing “kum bay yah”?

Rgentum said:
I think Nancy Pelosi was absolutely correct to say that impeachment was off the table as soon as she took over as Speaker. Of course, no one gives her credit for that – and to their discredit, the GOP has not followed suit and several of them are already looking for any excuse to impeach Obama.

Yea, because she knew about it and didn’t object to it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664.html

waterboarding helped lead to the capture and kill of OBL.

They discovered plans, when they raided OBL’s house, to attack US rail systems on 9/11/2011.

While it is a slow ticking timebomb (10 years), it was a ticking timebomb none the less. Had they not caught OBL last weekend, what would have happened on 9/11? How many lives might have been lost?

purveyor said:
I simply provided clinical definitions: Using “torture” provides pathologic gratification for the “torturer”.

“Interrogation”, by definition, is used to acquire information, NOT, pathologic gratification. Or, do you prefer to believe that the individuals who performed the “Water Boarding”, were enjoying themselves?

This reminds me of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia’s televised claim that torture is not prohibited by our Constitution’s 8th Amendment.

Scalia said that torture is not “cruel and unusual punishment” since the torture isn’t intended to be “punishment.”

With all the weasely semantics and word games being played, one day we might wake up and find ourselves living in a torture state with our Constitution shredded and rendered into nothing more than a quaint historical document.

sarainitaly said:
torture is burning someone alivetorture is forcing someone to jump to their deathtorture is stabbing someone to death in front of hundreds of innocent peopletorture is hijacking an airplane filled with hundreds of innocent people and flying them into a buildingtorture is having a building collapse around youtorture is listening to your voicemail, hearing the last words of your husband seconds before he burns to deathtorture is desperately trying to reach you loved ones on the phone as you watch the fires come closer and closer… Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson can shove his *waterboarding is torture* outrage up his a**.

You really have no idea do you? Do you honestly pick one over the other? What a foolish thing to say. Every one of them is torture, waterboarding included. If you don’t think it is, perhaps you’d like to become a volunteer and find out for yourself?

To: MIA KULPER,

Point taken. Now, with appropriate respect, eliminate your last paragraph, containing the trite “dicta”, you would have a scholarly argument.

However, my response is to “define interrogation”. Hmm.

Lets use “syllogistic logic”.
Torture causes discomfort. Khalid is in discomfort, therefore, Khalid is being tortured?

Or, If torture is water boarding, and, Khalid is being water boarded, then… Hmm?

Let me know when YOU solve the problem, MIA. I am content with the results as they are.

It’s not clear to me whether you’re proposing that waterboarding is NOT torture, so it’s morally OK, or whether you believe that torturing suspects is OK.

If it’s the former, then you’re wrong in my opinion and there’s plenty of evidence to show that the United States has prosecuted people for war crimes that included various waterboarding offenses.

If it’s the latter case and you believe that torturing suspects by any means is fine if it might keep you safe, then I pity you but I have no interest in discussing it any further.

According to Merriam-Webster the definition of torture is as follows:

Definition of TORTURE
1a : anguish of body or mind : agony b : something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining

Waterboarding meets at least two of the above definitions. “A rose by any other name …”

GFY Wilkerson.