After Santorum was schooled on his history, he was further exposed as a war hawk.  Ron Paul is the only candidate on the stage who actually believes in human rights, free trade, and PEACE.

Congrats Frances!  Excellent coverage of the debate from Mediaite.  Very substantive.

 Ron Paul blew me away in this debate. UNbelievable how much sense this guy is making now. I may just have to vote for him in 2012.

Democrat since 2000

The old gray squirrel can fidget his way through a Noam Chomsky speech and have republicans cheer… Kudos to him.

Ron Paul kicked Santorum’s ass.

Obama having to run against Ron Paul would probably be the best thing for our country right now.

Clinton/Dole II: Electric Boogaloo

Did Fox News pull the debate poll from their home page? They tend to do that when they don’t like the results

This debate would have been kind of a snore fest without Ron Paul. He stirs up people’s preconceptions and gives people broader perspectives. It’s sort of like viewing your neighborhood from your rooftop when you’ve become accustomed to the view from the front window.

Trying to say we’ve been at war against Iran since 1953 is like saying we’ve been oppressing the Indians since 1776. It ignores the reality that we have today and that is that Iran’s government has been hostile to us since 1979.

It also ignores historical fact. The coalition of Islamists, Communists, Liberals, and Capitalists that revolted against the Shah in the 70′s did so because the Shah was a tyrant, not because they hated America and an American-backed ruler (very similar to 2011 Egypt where Mubarak was a tyrant but backed by the US – Egyptians weren’t revolting against the US, they were revolting against a tyrant). It is not until the Islamists seize power that any of the players in the Revolution display animosity towards the United States; and it is not until the Islamists seize power that the American Embassy in Tehran is attacked.

Mr. Paul also does the American public a blatant miss-service by even attempting to compare the Soviets and Islamists. Mutually Assured Destruction worked against the Soviets because both the Soviets and the US wished to live. It was not a central Communist belief that everyone in America had to die. The time period was specifically called “the Cold War” because US troops and Soviet troops never attacked each other. But time and again, Iran’s leaders have attacked US troops as Mr. Santorum clearly pointed out and if you actually pay attention to what comes out of Iran in Farsi-language media you see that Iran’s leaders desire no less than to control the world under a Sharia fist and they are willing to give up their lives in pursuit of this goal.

The constant bane of non-interventionists is the misunderstanding that war can be upon them even if war has not been declared outright. The 21st century battlefield has changed; we no longer fight wars against uniformed soldiers bearing battle standards but against soldiers who blend in with civilians and attack from behind human shields.

It is unquestionable that the US military dominates all others on a conventional battlefield. But the long wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam prove that our military is virtually ineffective against guerrilla tactics. Mr. Paul’s dishonesty prevents him from exposing the truth – that we have real need of entering a long war in Iran – in favor of more palatable non-interventionist platitudes.

“because we just plain don’t mind our own business” – it’s time we start – Ron Paul 2012
 
Paul pulls no punches, We bring it on ourselves. “If” Iran was dumb enough to make Nukes, Im sure they have closer neighbors that will get more pissed than us and take care of any threats. We need to take care of our borders on this side of the pond.

If you forget why Iran hates us: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

We need to quite PUSHING or influence on others. Let those countries who wish to be our friends, do it on their want,  not our need to expand the “Empire”.

The only reason this Iranian government even exists is because of the United States.  If it weren’t for US overthrowing Iran’s government (a democratic government) and putting in the dictator Shah, the Islamists wouldnt have overthrown the Shah and established themselves.  And Israel wouldn’t have Hezbollah to deal with.  So to those that say Ron Paul is anti-Israel are wrong.  Ron Paul is against policies that create more enemies for Israel and US.  

I always have to keep reminding myself Paul is really a Republican because I love so many things about him.

no one will be in that booth when you vote.. we wont tell… ;-)

If more reasonable Liberals, Democrats, Progressives, etc. voted for Paul in their primary then he could win.  It would mean registering as an R for a day if you live in state with a closed primary.  Anti-war, anti-torture, anti-corporatism, pro-civil liberties, pro-freedom. Ron Paul 2012.

Why is it that Ron Paul seems to be the only honest person the stage?  It’s a sad state of affairs for the Republican Party.

Even more sad is that Obama might be the biggest war monger out of all these people.

Well said. And yet Santorum basically said we must defend Israel as though that is even more important than our own national interest.

Ron Paul’s big suggestion was that Iran should get nukes?  Oh yeah, that’s some brilliant thinking.  Why don’t we just give it to them and speed along the process, too?

It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.

U.S. fears Iran.

Iran fears the U.S.

Iran, however is not our neighbor and we have no right to engage militarily with them unless

Their GOVERNMENT DIRECTLY attacks the U.S.  

Paul has a point, I wish more politicians thought that way about war. Mind your own damn business and the rent is to damn high. Sounds okay. 

That’s not the point.  I’ve voted Republican before.  But just as there are many reasons why I love Paul there are more reasons why I wouldn’t want him for President. 

Which part of “Iran’s leaders have attacked US troops” did you not understand?

Can someone tell me why we care about Isreal so much again?  For what reason do we fight their battles?

I might just do that. 

Ron Paul was great. Not to mention he’s right. Before we bacame an empire ( pre-WW2) we messed with nobody and nobody messed with us, for the most part. We need to return to that. We need to focus on our own problems and keep our noses out of other nations affairs.

Iraq- It’s time to go.
Afghanistan- We’ve been there long enough.
Libya- not our problem.
North/South Korea- who cares.
Iran- Their dreams of a Persian Empire reborn will never happen. So let the mad man babble.
South America (drug war)- Waste of time, money and lives. It’s time to end prohibition.
Cuba- The Canadians pose more of a threat than them. 

It’s time to stop playing Rome and grow up, America!

And you can prove this?  

And furthermore, where were our troops when they were “attacked”?

Lastly, were these TROOPS of IRAN or criminal elements FROM IRAN?

Try to make distinctions.  It can help your cause.

Well, one reason is that we (along with the rest of the Allies) gave them that land after we won it in WW2.  Second, they are the only legitimate democracy in the region.  And third, if we don’t protect them, it will turn into a genocide and embolden the terrorists in the region.  Guess what?  If Israel disappeared tomorrow, these people aren’t suddenly going to become peaceful.

He’s a classic liberal, small  ‘L’. You are a progressive liberal, capital ‘L’. Lots of common ground. Too bad your big centralized government agenda means we can’t drink out of the same bowl. Meow.

If they are militaristic entities funded by Iran then so far as I’m concerned that makes them soldiers of Iran.

Iran funding al-Qaeda: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60162.html
Iran funding Hezbollah and Syrian military: http://www.amazon.com/Road-Fatima-Gate-Hezbollah-Iranian/dp/1594035210/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313125418&sr=8-1
Iran funding Hamas: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/16/world/main1501210.shtml
Iran funding insurgency in Iraq: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1220/p25s03-usmi.html
Iran funding Taliban (and Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan): http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/09/07/report-iran-pays-taliban-kill-troops/

This isn’t even close to an exhaustive list, it’s only what comes up on the first page of Google. If this is not good enough proof for you then you’re no different from a tin-foil hatter / 9/11 truther / conspiracy theorist / someone for whom video wouldn’t even be sufficient proof.

I agree Frances did a good job!  

Oh, so funding the Taliban or Al-Qaeda is the same thing as an act of war on the U.S?

If so, then I GUESS WE SHOULD ANNIHILATE OURSELVES

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/07/25/us-funding-taliban/

A lot of this is just war propaganda, the same stuff you guys pulled out of your crack

before the Iraq war.  I’m not falling for that bull anymore.  

The bottom line as far as I’m concerned is this;

WE DON’T BELONG OVER THERE.

WE HAVE NO BUSINESS OVER THERE.

ISRAEL NEEDS TO TAKE CARE OF ITSELF (AND PROBABLY WANTS TO)

IRAN HAS MORE BUSINESS IN IRAQ THAN WE DO (THEIR NEIGHBORS)

You can take that war propaganda and shove it.  I’m not buying it.

I have a historical challenges to your argument. The first is that we were not very quietly backing Saddam Hussein while he fought a long war against Iran, including the use of chemical agents. That is why Hussein thought we would let him occupy Kuwait. He expected us to make a political fuss, of course; just for show.

Hussein really was shocked that we did more than just protest at the UN, AND his fight with Iran is the reason we only kicked him out of Kuwait in ’91 instead of taking him out altogether. He was fighting our proxy war with Iran, and Iran knew it.

@ Fat Libertarian

There is a very, very big difference between idiots in the Pentagon who can’t track how their budget is being spent and decision-makers in Iran’s government deliberately giving money to people who want to harm Americans. How can you even compare the two?

You want to talk about Israel? Sure we ought to stop giving military aid to Israel. It works against Israeli interests because it only fosters an Israeli dependency on American weapons (since the military aid comes with the strings attached that it must be spent on American-manufactured weapons, not Israeli-manufactured weapons, see also: American pressure to end the Lavi fighter which would have outperformed American jets of the period) but if Ron Paul actually understood how this aid works, how the fact that it must be spent on American armament manufacturing and thus CREATES AMERICAN JOBS (shhhh!), he wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it.

If you think we have no business in Israel you are wrong, dead wrong… whether or not we have business with someone has very little to do with geographic borders in a globalized, 21st century world. Most American high-tech companies own R&D branches in Israel, companies like Google, Microsoft, Intel, IBM – in fact, all of Intel’s recent ass-kicking in the processor industry comes from improvements created by their Israeli divisions. Intel’s first processor manufacturing factory outside the US was in Israel which still pumps out processors today for American consumption (and as a libertarian, you don’t support protectionism – do you?). Not to mention the fact that the Israeli military provides the US military with some of the best intelligence that the US can get on that part of the Earth and the various other benefits (Teva USA is part of the Israeli pharmaceutical conglomerate Teva which is a major manufacturer of generic medication…. which makes your healthcare costs lower).

I assure you, if Israel could deal with the Iranian problem themselves, they would have already, but with a population of only 7 million and a draft they can barely manage enough of a force to protect themselves let alone invade a country much more vast in geography and with more than ten times the population.

@ Devil’s Spawn
1991 is after 1979 and 1979 is certainly before the Iran-Iraq War (early 1980′s). The Iran Hostage Crisis (Contra etc.) was in the last months of the Carter administration, so anti-American sentiment in Iran must predate the Iran-Iraq War. Check your dates next time.

(copied from below – I saw the email notification before I saw which one of my posts you responded to)

1991 is after 1979 and 1979 is certainly before the Iran-Iraq War (early 1980′s). The Iran Hostage Crisis (Contra etc.) was in the last months of the Carter administration, so anti-American sentiment in Iran must predate the Iran-Iraq War. Check your dates next time.

Because the zionists own the medias in the US and fund the election of most of the politicians in the Congress. You need to be pro Israel and pro Zionist if you wanna make a career in Washington and fill your own pockets. Needless to say that this is not really helping the cause of America. 

Ron Paul is right, America needs to take care of its own business and stop meddling in that region. Free trade and respect would do far greater good to the people (and damage to the dictatorships) in these regions than constant interventionism which only serves to feed the propaganda machine of extremists of all kind against the US. 

 No Illusive man we did mess with many people. Look into the wars in central america in the 20s and 30s. Look into the philllipena insurrection. We were more isolationist in general but as we became a world power things changed.

I would say check your history about that land…You can’t give something you don’t own..
There is a much longer history than WWII on that land.. Zionism dates back to late 1800′s.
but more so..WW1 began the move…

You also might want to check on what other democracies in their eyes ‘we” and half of europe destroyed there and helped put puppets into power by our empires over reaching hands.. it’s all about the oil they say these days.. but we should support them, i guess? You did know the Jewish mafia is the worse in American history.. everyone got an agenda. read up on it.. anyways..

Yes, Our presence and Isreals out of the middle east would make them much less hostile.. if you quit being dependent on their oil, they would actually disappear into the sands.

Also we we were heavily involved in the Texas revolution, and we invaded mexico and took their capital during the mexican american war. Not to mention tripoli interventions in china in the 1800s and during the boxer rebellion of 1900 korea 1877 Samoa 1899. Russia 1918 the list goes on.

Your last two points are right. Your first post is wrong. The land that is now Israel was controlled by the British at the end of WW2 – American soldiers never set food in the Levant during the 40′s. The Allies didn’t turn the land over to Israel because the Allies didn’t exist 3 years after WW2 ended, when Israel was founded in 1948. Instead, the land was turned over to the Israelis and Arabs by the British, at the behest of a UN Partition Plan that gave a state to the Arabs and a state to the Jews, and to keep a long story short, the Arabs invaded the Jews, the Jews nearly got annihilated (they lost 1% of their population… imagine a war taking place on American soil killing 30 million civilians to get some perspective on that), but they didn’t, and ended up repelling the Arabs and gaining (legitimately – international law allows the legitimate acquisition of territory if done so in a defensive war) many of the lands that were previously given to the Arabs. 

We care so much about Israel because, per capita, they’re one of the biggest American trading partners in the world, they churn out the most Nobel Laureates per capita than any other country in the world (the ideas of whom get developed and end up in products you buy on American soil), American companies have enormous investments in Israel, they purchase extraordinary amounts of American product, and because their CIA-equivalents are the best local source of military intelligence in the Middle East.

You have a good point.. For a country for Freedom.. we sure do fight alot… but we usually give back what we take.. land wise.. kinda sorta..

thank goodness we can get someone like Ron Paul in there to help change that..and just mind our own Business.

Iraq / Afghanistan: if we don’t ensure stable government then all the time we spent there was for naught. If you can live with thousands of American soldiers dying in vain then that’s on you, and certainly we never should’ve gotten into Iraq in the first place, but we need to do what’s right at this point in time rather than what’s “affordable” which is just a ploy to redirect military funds into our massive entitlement programs.

Libya – agreed
North/South Korea: we care because Japan is a major US trading partner. I assure you, China and North Korea are not friendly to the Japanese… if China or North Korea invaded South Korea and Japan tomorrow you can say goodbye to any imported Sony TV’s, imported Samsung computer memory, imported Nikon cameras, and you certainly won’t see any later Toyota model years than 2012.
Iran – that’s what people said about Hitler and his dreams of a unified Europe
South America – agreedCuba – agreed

I’m voting for PEACE.  Ron Paul.  Say no to the George W. Obama wars.

Im sure solatic found WMD’s in Iraq too..he needs to alert the media…

Amazing he forgets we put the Shah in power as a regime over a democracy..and let him fail ourselves..  we are pretty good at making puppets and then cutting strings.. We need to mind our own business and cut agency spendings alot on those that can’t.

The United States aided and abeted the opression of the Iranian people under the Shah and I guess you can say they really hold a grudge.

 I can pick individual wars we have been involved in an be critical of them. We can look back at the extermination of the America indians and probably agree what a horrible thing that was. But in retrospect it was probably inevitable when there is such a huge gulf between cultures. However I do think it comes with the territory so to speak when you are the big boy on the block. Ron talks a great game and it all sounds nice. But he can say these things knowing he cant win. Thats why he is so interesting and refreshing. But he is no different than any other politician in many regards. William Buckley the famous conservative intellectual ran for mayor of new york in 1965 saying what he thought and things that were not politically correct. While he was doing this in jest he thought im going to elevate the debate. But he actually began to appeal to people and was getting closer in the polls to his surprise! He then felt the pressure from the republicans to start cow towing to typical talking points because he felt he may actually have a chance to win. Well he lost but in part because he couldnt remain consistent. Paul is the same way in many respects. He is a thorn in the side of the republicans and knows it but also knows he cant win. If for some reason he happened to be get close you would see him start to flip flop like all the others. Its much easier to sit outside the box and criticize than to actually govern this country.

Actually, they didn’t. The Shah was not a totalitarian tyrant; although he imprisoned and killed political opponents he modernized Iran during his reign and most Iranians enjoyed American rock and roll music and American fashion. Before 1979, seeing women cover their hair in Iranian cities was uncommon. But like most people ruled by a tyrant, they resented their freedoms being taken away so they revolted, and it’s only until their freedoms were demolished under Islamist rule that they realized what they lost.

I’m going to plug the excellent film Persepolis here (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0808417/) because it does a tremendous job attempting to explain the change that Iran underwent in 1979 and how the Iranian government in no way represents the Iranian population or popular sentiment.

Solatic, Iraq and Afghanistan are nothing more than a sucking chest wound for soldiers, dollars, and American prestige    I’m sorry you haven’t woken up to that fact and still buy into the philosphy of pouring good money after bad.  Have we not learned anything from Vietnam?  Do you think we should go back to Vietnam?  Somehow America moved on from that mistake and was able to live with 58,000 soldiers dying in vain during that war.

ONE THING IS CLEAR.  The founding fathers of this country did not intend for the United States to be involved in the internal affairs of other countries. In fact, they expressly warned against it.  They are rolling in their graves right now as the U.S. pursues militarism all over the globe.   They were advocates of commerce, free trade, entangling alliances with no other nations.  

I’ll have to disagree on some points.. One thing Ron Paul is, is “consistent” look up his voting record.

If Obama could win for hope and change that has yet to happen….

need I say more…

If you can live with thousands of American soldiers dying in vain then that’s on you

NO SIR!!

That’s on armchair generals sitting in the Pentagon..and those safely in Washington putting our men in harms way! You must have missed the Vietnam war…BEEN THERE…DONE THAT!!

 Oh im not disagreeing with you he’s very consistent. But at the end of the day he’s congressman and not a executive leader.  If he was a mayor or a governor I can guarantee you would find may inconsistencys in his record. Im not being overly critical of him, like I said he is interesting. But when you are actually in charge of day to day operations within a government you begin to have to compromise and make the hard decisions.

Like I said, Iraq shouldn’t have happened in the first place, just like Vietnam shouldn’t have happened in the first place. Once we’re there though, we need to finish the job. We learned two things from Vietnam: 1) don’t get into wars for stupid reasons and 2) support the troops. We learned one thing from Iraq: make sure our intelligence is 100% golden take-it-to-the-bank rock solid before you get into a war i.e. don’t tell the American people “oops, looks like they didn’t have WMD’s after all.” If you’re OK with troops dying in vain then we simply have a philosophical difference.

If the Founding Fathers were advocates of free trade then I would venture that they were advocates of enabling free trade. Let me guess – you’re going to bring up George Washington’s farewell address proclaiming neutrality? With all due respect, 1) George Washington (among other Founding Fathers) opposed the existence of political parties, and Ron Paul is a Republican, 2) George Washington lived in a world where it was more expensive to import most wares over months’ worth of journey at sea, where the decision to impart military force would have meant deploying troops for years over vast oceans when today, even if we closed all military bases abroad, we are able to launch a missile that can strike with pinpoint precision anywhere in the world in a matter of hours.

Don’t get me wrong – the Founding Fathers were very much correct on a great many things namely small and limited government, the role of morality in society, etc. but their military and foreign policy is absolutely in no way even remotely applicable to the 21st century and that is why isolationist policy never got into the Constitution.

Isn’t early ’80s close enough to 1979 for you?

39th Infantry Regiment, thankyouverymuch. I shot my share of gooks and I assure you, we were idiots for getting out. Vanity has nothing to do with cause and everything to do with effect. If you give your life for nothing but in the name of your Country then your Country just became synonymous with nothing. It’s on our “armchair generals in the Pentagon” to make sure that doesn’t happen.

All the time we spent in Afghanistan was for naught.

Your a total IDIOT if you think any soldier that fell for his country win,tie,lose was in vain to that soldier, his nation or his family..  no further discussing it with you needed! Just tac IDIOT on your forehead!

Nam of all wars was fought in Washington.. they wouldn’t let us win.. 10 years later it’s the same in Afganistan.. kick ass and get out..or just get the f*ck out! But I will be damned if I allow anyone say any soldier dies in vain when called by his country and gives his life.. you can kiss my ass and every mans ass that did fall!

So we can agree on something in the end. We didn’t actually end up getting much on our investment in Afghanistan. We got in to kill Bin Laden and ended up killing him in Pakistan instead because we still don’t know how to fight a stupid guerrilla war. We should’ve been out of Afghanistan in a year, tops. But even though the time we spent in Afghanistan was for naught, we can’t let the lives we spent in Afghanistan be for naught. There’s a subtle but important difference and it has to do with the honor and respect people earn and deserve for serving in the American military with distinction – that we owe more to our troops than any military paycheck can ever hope to make even.

Of all people I would think you would find the letter from the Secretary of Defense saying “Dear Madam, we regret to inform you that we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on your son so he could be cannon fodder on a godforsaken rock on the other side of the globe where the politicians said ‘screw it’ to ‘Leave No Man Behind’, here’s your gold-star service banner” to be no consolation whatsoever. But maybe we disagree on what it means to “die in vain.” 

And look where we have been fighting. Afghanistan on Iran’s eastern border and Iraq on Iran’s western border. Funny that most Americans don’t see that.
Imagine if Russia or China were fighting in Canada and Mexico.

Great theory, except that we put the Shah in power in the first place.  Had we minded our own business from the start, we wouldn’t have all these anti-american religious zealots.  They might still be religious zealots, but if we minded our own business, they wouldn’t give a crap about the good ol’ US of A.  The only reason they are willing to die to kill Americans, is because we are over there, we started meddling in their affairs long before they started blowing up innocent Americans. 

Excuse me, but not dying in vain is just political talk for keep-having-soldiers die.

I’m sure you have heard the phrase Don’t throw good money after bad.
Now make it more meaningful and say Don’t throw good soldiers into bad missions.

The fact that previous missions were a mistake does not mean that you must keep on making the same mistake and killing more soldiers so the politicians won’t have to admit THEY made a mistake. 

Soldiers see war as one mission at a time, and if they do their duty and fight honorably, they do not die in vain, no matter what the outcome of the war.

Minor point. It is not the real generals we have to worry about. They (with rare exception) took the risks and earned their way up.
It is the armchair generals who never wore a uniform that we have to worry about. They are those chicken-hawks like Dick(less) Cheney.

There is a long and mostly thoughtful chain of comments about wars and soldiers dying in vain.

I want to go to another point, and state my contempt for the politicians who say Obama should listen to his generals for advice on when to end the fighting. Those politicians have it backwards and their claim is counter to the intent of the constitution!

The president, with the consent of congress, decides when to fight and when to stop fighting. The generals take those orders and do the best they can to make it happen. That is the proper way to do things in a democracy and according to our constitution. If the generals think they can accomplish a little more, they can say so. But, it is still up to the civilian leadership to tell the generals when the cost exceeds the benefit.

When civilians always defer to generals, you end up with a military dictatorship. Fortunately, our officers are taught that before they get commissioned. “… I will obey the orders of the president and the officers appointed over me….” Presidents do not take orders from generals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_duty_United_States_four-star_officers

Yeah he definitely stole the show. He was especially passionate about the foreign policy questions, and was the only guy on the stage that didn’t back off the previous statements they tried to trip him up with.  I’m not a Ron Paul fan, and even with his great performance tonight I can’t see myself voting for him, but the old guy showed a conviction and integrity tonight that nobody else on the stage had.

Solatic,

All was correct except the part where you say the Arabs attacked the Israelis. In fact, it was the Israelis that were unhappy with the amount of land afforded them by The British. Because of this they refused to abide by the plan and instead armed the settlements outside their territory (sound familiar???) and pushed Arabs out of the land given to them by the British. This is what led the Palestinians to call for help from other Arab nations to defend them from the Israelis who were driving them off their land. Do a search on how Haifa was acquired, I mean seriously, accurate history is just a click away on Google! You do not have to spread your ignorance, please keep it to yourself.

Oh and if you are interested the British actually sided with the Palestinians and used their Airforce to bomb and strafe the Israelis. Read a book or something please!!!

There is an interesting phenomenon that I have observed first hand in more than one country and seen reported in others. While a government like Iran, China, or Russia may hate America and pump out as much propaganda as they can to prove it, the majority of citizens do not hate America and wish they could live here. Of course you do not normally hear about that, but the reason is obvious. Those dictatorships don’t let that information get spread, and are likely to shoot the guy who tries to say it.

Governments take these things seriously, but world-wise individuals don’t.

They sure do have a great intelligence service… I suppose that is why they are the largest conductor of espionage inside the US. In fact they hold the record for the largest domestic spy ring ever busted by the US. With friends like that…

None of the reasons that you listed are moral or logical. Your argument is essentially that we should protect and subsidize them because they are so successful at selling us things and because we need to protect the economic interests of our corporations.

You also ignore the fact that the nature of our relationship with Israel makes it extremely difficult to engendered positive relationships and close diplomacy with the many other countries in the region. So there is a very real opportunity cost that we are paying for our relationship with Israel that comes in many forms including American blood.

Take a trip to the region and spend some time there and I think you will see what I am saying. Until then I guess this is a free country so you can continue with the rhetoric. Rhetoric has really gotten this country far…

Seriously? I am not really sure what to say to you on this point. You realize we instigated the Vietnam war right? We pushed the country along to road to civil war to seize the opportunity for us to fill in the power vacuum left by the departure of the French. We then faked the Gulf of Tonkin incident to make it politically possible for us to militarily support the side we wanted to win in the civil war we helped create.

The tragedy is the soldiers sent to Vietnam were drafted and yet they were treated so poorly upon their return. Our armed forces today are all volunteer which means that they chose to participate in these wars of naked aggression and empire. Our troops now wanted to be sent overseas to kill in these fraudulent undeclared wars. Truly if any generation of US armed forces deserves they contempt shown Vietnam vets it is the generation overseas now.

Your “facts” are pretty questionable.  The causes of the Iranian revolution were mostly conservative backlash against the Westernization of Iran under the Shah, and the (accurate) perception that the Shah was a puppet of the West. The success of Ayatollah Khomeini in stepping into the power vacuum was largely due to the traditional sway Shi’ah clergy held over the average Iranian, and the royal government’s marginalization of religion under the Shah. 

The embassy was not attacked “after the Islamists siezed power,” but after the United States refused to extradite the Shah to stand trial in Iran. You also mischaracterize the position of the Iranian leadership vis a vis America.  Ayatollah Khamenei has said “”the Iranian people’s hatred for America is profound. The reason for this [hatred] is the various plots that the U.S. government has said “”the Iranian people’s hatred for America is profound. The reason for this [hatred] is the various plots that the U.S. government has concocted against Iran and the Iranian people in the past 50 years. The Americans have not only refused to apologize for their actions, but have continued with their arrogant actions.”  He’s also said “”we have never said that the relations will remain severed forever. Undoubtedly, the day the relations with America prove beneficial for the Iranian nation I will be the first one to approve of that.”  Not the same thing as controlling the world under a Shariah fist.

The claims you and Santori make about Iran being on the offensive against us in Iraq and Afghanistan are mostly crap.  In Afghanistan, they’re unadulterated crap.  Iran and other Afghanistan neighbors were backing the Northern Alliance against the Taliban since the 90s, way before we ever showed up there, and Iran is fully in bed with the Kharzi government in Afghanistan.  In Iraq, the situation is a little murkier.  Iran has supplied Shiite militias with training and equipment, and those militias have attacked American troops.  That’s not really the same thing as their leaders attacking our troops.  It’s more like the US supplying and training the Afghani mujahideen in the 80s when they fought a long and bloody war with the Soviets.

Our interests would not be served by invading Iran.  I know you war hawks think you’re arguing from the heart, but the real underlying reason behind a desire to invade Iran (or Iraq for that matter) is to steal their oil, and the world is too transparent a place these days for that to work.  Look what happened with the Iraqi oil fields; we didn’t get no-bid contracts awarded to American companies.  It won’t work in Iran either, and all the sabre rattling does is push Iran closer to Russia and China, neither of whom would stand by if we went to war.

No. I am sorry but I do not respect people that spend trillions of our dollars to train, develop expensive weapon systems, only to fly half way around the world to kill civilians, armies we could have defeated with ours during WWII, and militia/enemy combatants using 50 year old weaponry whose training is likely less than that of your average NRA member. Oh and did I mention that all they will accomplish is creating more enemies for future generations of Americans to fight? We would be far better served if they could quench their bloodlust by shooting a deer or something.

How often does this need to occur in our history and that of other nations for people like you to understand the pattern.

yes they did so did a lot of other sites

Alright… So let’s take this one step further… Why do you think Iran does that? Before you answer look at who is funding the opposition parties in Iran staging violent protests. Look at who is waging Cyber War E.G. Stuxnet against them. Look at who funded their enemy in their last war. Look at who irreparably damages their economy and hurts their people through sanctions. Look at who assassinates their citizens and their families if they are suspected or participating in nuclear research at a university.

Now tell me why do the Iranians fund groups to fight US/Israeli hegemony in the region?

You’re getting your facts mixed up again here.  The Iranian hostage crisis was in the last months of the Carter administration, but the Iran-Contra-Hostage deal was much later, in 1985.

Officials in the Reagan administration wanted to fund the Contras, a guerilla organization that was based in Honduras and wanted to overthrow the government of Nicaragua.  Congress had passed several amendments to prevent funding of the Contras.  At the same time, Hezbollah had taken some hostages, and a “moderate” group in Iran that wanted to establish quiet relations with the US in prelude to formal relations after the Ayatollah died offered to convince them to release the hostages in exchange for weapons, so a plan was hatched to sell weapons to Iranian “moderates” through Israel.  The plan evolved into selling weapons directly to the Iranian army, and sending a portion of the proceeds to the Contras, who were then allowed to fly cocaine into the US on the same CIA planes that flew weapons to the Contras. 

The story about Hussein fighting a proxy war on our behalf against Iran is somewhat less flawed.  US aims in the Iran-Iraq war were to force a stalemate and ceasefire.  We gave more aid to Iraq than Iran, but gave both sides weapons (in violation of an embargo in Iran’s case) and access to satellite intelligence.  Iraq was too closely tied to the Soviet Union for us to be comfortable with them supplanting Iran as the dominant power in the Persian Gulf, but Iran hated the US and seemed to have expansionist aims, which we didn’t like either.  We wanted each country to contain the other, and we got it, but at a pretty high cost to both sides and to US credibility in the region.

You’re getting your facts mixed up again here.  The Iranian hostage crisis was in the last months of the Carter administration, but the Iran-Contra-Hostage deal was much later, in 1985.

Officials in the Reagan administration wanted to fund the Contras, a guerilla organization that was based in Honduras and wanted to overthrow the government of Nicaragua.  Congress had passed several amendments to prevent funding of the Contras.  At the same time, Hezbollah had taken some hostages, and a “moderate” group in Iran that wanted to establish quiet relations with the US in prelude to formal relations after the Ayatollah died offered to convince them to release the hostages in exchange for weapons, so a plan was hatched to sell weapons to Iranian “moderates” through Israel.  The plan evolved into selling weapons directly to the Iranian army, and sending a portion of the proceeds to the Contras, who were then allowed to fly cocaine into the US on the same CIA planes that flew weapons to the Contras. 

The story about Hussein fighting a proxy war on our behalf against Iran is somewhat less flawed.  US aims in the Iran-Iraq war were to force a stalemate and ceasefire.  We gave more aid to Iraq than Iran, but gave both sides weapons (in violation of an embargo in Iran’s case) and access to satellite intelligence.  Iraq was too closely tied to the Soviet Union for us to be comfortable with them supplanting Iran as the dominant power in the Persian Gulf, but Iran hated the US and seemed to have expansionist aims, which we didn’t like either.  We wanted each country to contain the other, and we got it, but at a pretty high cost to both sides and to US credibility in the region.

It may sound weird, but we support Israel because she is a stablizing influence on the region.  It’s less important today than 60 years ago, but we wanted the Middle East to quit fighting with each other and get to work pumping oil for us to buy.  The theory was that, by giving them a common enemy, we’d keep them from destroying each other.  The plan actually seems to have been fairly successful, but it’s hard to say what would have happened without Israel’s presence.  We’ve been friends to just about every country in the Middle East at one time or another, and the goal has always been to promote stability so the oil keeps flowing.

They didn’t legitimately gain territory.  The territory they gained is designated “occupied territory” under international law.  Israel has annexed East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, two regions of occupied territory, but no other country, not even the US, recognizes their claims.

Many a revolution was started or taken over by a minority who only looked like a majority after they got full control. The Russian revolution was one such example, and you mention that communists in Iran (no doubt with Soviet funding) were a part of the Iranian revolution, but you won’t find any of them in power now.

That is the other thing about revolutions, many factions are in at the start, but 19 times out of 20 only one comes out on top and it eliminates the others. That is why there have been so many counter-revolutions, eventually.

Truly if any generation of US armed forces deserves they contempt shown Vietnam vets it is the generation overseas now.  

We have totally lost sight on what a “Soldier” is.

You as a citizen offer your time and possibly life for your country. A soldier does not pick his battles or wars, he answers in the name of his country. He believes his President and Congress deemed these wars neccessary for the freedoms earned as citizens. We fought to be free. We should only fight to remain free. A soldier follows orders if they are drafted or enlist. You can not do your country more honor than offering your life for its beliefs and in that respect you could “never die in vain”.

If corruption for wars exist, it’s in Washington not in the soldier. All soldiers deserve the respect and thank you as did their founding fathers to bring us to this freedom. Much more so than those making laws in Washington who attempt to take away freedoms and tax for more wars. Ron Paul knows this, those in Washington know this. If any amendment should be included in the Constitution it should be: To serve in Congress or as President, you “MUST” have served your country in the Military. It’s that important. Especially when you control to send men and women to fight your battles. You should know the feeling that goes with the reason you want them to fight and die, to better balance your decisions.

At least that way we might be able to respect those that shout WAR!

I am a democrat over here, but I too believe Ron Paul makes a lot of sense on some issues. I don’t agree with him on every issue but its strange how much I agree on him with. I would love to see him win the republican nod!  

Fact: Economic policies are his plus but all the rest
he goes way over the hill and once again proves why he will not last far in the
race. Human nature is not flowers and daises Ron Paul. Facts on the ground
states now are not the time to lower your fist because you will get knocked out
by your opponent. The 9/11 tragedy was not asked for but has to be corrected
not matter how long it takes or how much monies even tax monies it takes to
stop the enemies around the globe to let them know that these guys mean business
when you crap in their house.

Choose your issue wisely or you’ll get a history lesson from Prof. Paul…

“The 9/11 tragedy was not asked for but has to be corrected
not matter how long it takes or how much monies even tax monies it takes to
stop the enemies around the globe to let them know that these guys mean business
when you crap in their house.”

pretty interesting

We’d probably attack Iran’s troops, too if they were in Mexico?

Every single war you mention in your last paragraph, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Viet Nam were wars we did not belong in.  They were started with deception to profit our Military-Industrial complex.

But, thanks for understanding enough to call us “non-interventionists,” and not “isolationists.”

The 9/11 tragedy was not asked for but has to be corrected
not matter how long it takes or how much monies even tax monies it takes to
stop the enemies

Spoken like a true damned gNOpig idiot.

How are you going to finance your imperial wars WITHOUT money to pay for your troops?

Through “tax cuts” because “they raise revenue” and “the Iraq war will pay for itself”?

Where does the money to pay for the USA military comes from? Charity?

Go on. Keep embarrassing the gNOpigs.

Paul was epic last night no homo.

First, he was not referring directly to the uprising in the 70s- he was referring specifically to the hostage crisis in 1979. We installed the shah, and like other political figures we have installed, over time he became tyrannical. An uprising occurred and our embassy was then attacked, resulting in the hostage crisis. Our embassy was attacked at the same time as the shah because the Iranian people recognized that they were LINKED through our interference in their political system. I would do the same thing if another country tried to install “their” POTUS.

During the Cold War there was never full-scale war, yes. However, our intelligence services and special forces certainly butted head in major ways, and even more importantly, both sides recruited other nations to sponsor and fight in their stead (think Bay of Pigs, East bloc against the Stasi, etc etc). What Paul is saying, and on this point I agree, is that Iran ain’t shit. They have no significant ICBMs, no offensive capabilities. Iran hasn’t directly attacked a country using their military in over a century! Yes, they organize, fund and provide support to militants. However, they can’t directly attack us. Furthermore, nuclear bombs are easily traced after the blast, everyone in the military is aware of that. If their bomb were to somehow make it to our shores and get detonated, I am sure that any President, including Paul, Cain or the like would respond. People don’t realize that US vs Iran, militarily, would be like Mike Tyson fighting a 10 year old boy.

Everyone’s tactics fail against guerilla tactics, history has taught us that time and again. However, guerillas are not offensive weapons, they can only defend an area because they require participants that are so angry and frustrated with the occupying force that they are willing to live in the woods, leave their families behind and even sacrifice their lives to make it too painful for the invaders to persist. Leave them alone and take that reason to fight away and you will see that they are not sophisticated, organized or willing to die purely out of envy for American freedom. They hate us because we attack their country, bomb them from UAVs, destroy their intrastructure.

I just realized that you are right, it doesn’t work to pay a lot of attention to who started these wars (even though we did). What matters now is that we are the occupying force. Talk to military folks out there and they will tell you that we have no purpose in being over there, we are just fighting guerillas endlessly. Leave these middle eastern hillbillies alone, let them go back to their lives in the dark ages. We are more than strong enough to defend ourselves on our home turf- do you think that that trillon dollars we have spent on the wars 6000 miles away wouldn’t be enough to secure our country? Give me a break.

Go Go Ron Paul!!!!

Anyone with money could fund the crazy militants over there, Iran does it because they also hate Iraq and they want the country destabilized. You have to realize that Iraq has been, historically, the bully in the Middle East. Iran was their main rival, and the two countries hate each other. If NATO troops or another force were there in our stead, they would still be trying to screw with Iraq.

That said, they do hate us. The key distinction is the fallacy that “they hate us for our freedom.” That’s BS. Do they hate Canada for their freedom? How about Switzerland? They hate us for the same reason you would hate us if you were in their position- we have been messing with their country for 50 years, including installing the head of state, organizing military incursions into the country, bombing, cyber-warfare, etc. They just hate us for that, and while they are my enemies, I don’t blame them for it.

They can’t touch us, they don’t have the technology, and even if they took a 20 year immediate improvement in tech to North Korean levels, let’s say, they still wouldn’t be a threat to North America. And destabilizing the region with war? They are SURROUNDED by countries with many times more nukes than them, and the delivery systems to deploy those nukes. Paul just meant that he’s not surprised Iran is looking for a weapon because there are quite a few nuclear-armed countries next door.

I’m not taking Iran’s side, their government is terrible. However, we are spending all this money on a nonexistent threat. War is big business- ever wonder why Obama didn’t just pull his troops out? Big. Business.

The thing that you have to admire about him is that(correct me if I’m wrong), he has not waivered in his beliefs during his political career. Whether you agree or not he holds true to his values.  Quite exceptional for a politician.  

Dude your comment contradicts itself. Do you think the Shah was or was not a tyrant?

I have quite a few friends who emigrated to the US from Iran in the 70s and 80s. He was a tyrant. His regime abducted and killed entire families of political opponents! Sure, some people might have heard some rock n roll. They might have even worn some blue jeans and collared shirts. So what? Just because some Western culture leaked into the country doesn’t preclude him from being tyrannical. 

Loved your post. I would add that the other big reason for us to start wars is simply because wars are good for business in the US. When the economy is doing well and people are making money, not only does the party in power get a lot of fiscal support but they enjoy a content public who can focus on these wars instead of our own problems at home. Look at Obama, Mr. Anti-war. As soon as he got in office, his military strategy has been almost indistinguishable from Bush. There was no “pressure from the right” to do this, he just did it of his own volition. When there was less that full political pressure to keep the wars going, making a departure from campaign promises like that stinks of lobbyists.

Fact: Hey I really don’t see your point. If you want to put your head in the sand and get it up the rump, go ahead but America and the office of President is obligated to provide protection from foreign and domestic enemies. It doesn’t imply pick your nose and be a tard about what bad people are capable of doing to you just so you can live your life in the company of daises. You are another failed pupil of a coward somewhere in your past and they didn’t do you any favors but to keep you stuck on stupid!

I think it is hard for many of the American people to fathom to image if China invade Mexico because they told the world they have WMD that China felt threaten by. Made their case to the UN and was given a green light to do so. Though the real reason is China wanted to control the oil in Mexico for their economy to survive. I think the US will feel threaten because we have oil also and China may want to move north to take our oil fields. Same diff on how Iran would feels now.

“we have real need of entering a long war in Iran ”

OMG, these neocons disturb me…always so willing to sacrifice other people’s lives for their profits…..dood, please….get yourself in over there in a foxhole in  Iraq, Iran or whatever, and please take all your neocon buddies and family too….

Ron Paul for president.

We have had our fill of free trade hows that working for us? We now need FAIR trade.

See the wolf under that sheep suit? It’s there.

Couldn’t agree more.  I think a lot of Paul’s domestic policy positions are hopelessly naive, but at least he is genuine in his convictions and has maintained his credibility.

Fact:  I think you missed his/her point.  It was more about taxes and less about war.

Oh my A thread where people actually debate an issue without any name calling or anger towards one party or another.  I am amazed.  Good work people. 

Dan Carlin had a great point about this on one of his recent podcasts. He said that it’s the generals’ job to win wars. Thus, they will always say that the war can be won and to just keep at it. It makes them the least qualified to decide when to end the fighting because their answer will always be: “When we’ve won.”

What are the reasons you wouldn’t want him for President? I usually just hear people say he’s crazy without any well-articulated argument, so it would be refreshing to hear your non-talking point response.

Yeah, that’s true, when you spend ~8 times as much as the next biggest spender on defense, the temptation to use your military is pretty overwhelming, if only to justify the expense.

I’m pretty sure your namesake would disagree with your sentiment.

Pawlenty is done. Bachmann is finished once the tea-party groups find out that she worked as an IRS enforcer for four years (and had the nerve to say God called her for that job). Mitt is a neo-con warmonger. Ron Paul is the only candidate that will end all the wars. Both Republicans and Democrats support endless Wars for Israel, it all started nearly a decade ago under a false flag attack.9/11 and Israel, here: http://www.iuniverse.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000190526

In my opinion, Paul was the winner last night. In many ways he sounded like the only candidate living in the 21st century. Too bad he isn’t younger.

“we can’t let the lives we spent in Afghanistan be for naught.”

ah, war as its own justification, how beautifully circular.  if we loose 1000 lives, then we are 1000x more obligated to continue fighting for a result satisfactory to the already dead. also known as the “sunk cost fallacy”.

“no homo”? LOL

We haven’t had Free Trade for a very, very long time. When was the last time you bought a Cuban cigar? How about the last time you saw a piece of apparel made in America? The trade we have is regulated and manipulated by the Federal government at mind-boggling levels which is mostly to the detriment of the American people and its small businesses.

They sure did. Like all the other mainstream media outlets they are more interested in shaping the news than reporting it. You notice that since the primaries started Ron Paul’s been conspicuously absent from their shows? Fox business still has Dr. Paul on regularly, but they’re nothing like Fox News, so it’s not surprising.

Iran has never militarily engaged the U.S. save for a few incidents well over 20 years ago like the USS Stark incident. That being said, they do use their proxies to attack our military forces…in countries that we’re militarily occupying!

Intervention breeds resentment and ultimately begets violence.

Just imagine how you’d react as an American to the Chinese invading and occupying Illinois when you live in Iowa or Indiana.

How does

“imprisoned and killed political opponents”

NOT equal

“totalitarian tyrant”?

Run that one by me again?

Can anyone say tea-party?

When was the last time you bought something that wasn’t “made in China”?

Someone commentated elsewhere that: “There are only two candidates: Ron Paul and Not Ron Paul. If you like the TSA enhanced pat-downs, don’t vote for Ron Paul. If you think endless, unproductive wars are a good and sane foreign policy, don’t vote for Ron Paul. If you want the economic crisis to linger until the dollar collapses, don’t vote for Ron Paul.” I couldn’t agree more.

As a person that has supported Paul for several years now, I am very happy to read some of the comments from posters on this thread. In my humble opinion, Ron Paul represents real change, and stands out from every other national politician in either party. He may not look or sound like a President that many Americans are used to seeing in the American Idol era, but Ron Paul has the brass balls of a President we have not had since Jack Kennedy was in the White House. He’s the right man at the right time in the critical juncture. And in your hearts and heads, most of you know he’s probably right on both the wars and the economy.

If you are a Democrat or an Independent who is seriously looking into Ron Paul, I need to ask of you to walk the walk. Do the research, and if he’s the man, don’t wait until the General Election and HOPE he is the nominee! We need you voting in the primaries for him. Check out the Blue Republican movement for more details.

“If you live in a closed /semi-closed primary state, you MUST register as a Republican in order to vote for Ron Paul in the crucial primary election. I suspect RP has a lot of Democrat supporters who may be disappointed when they go to the polls if they do not change party affiliations. The closed /SEMI CLOSED states are : AZ, CO, CT,DEL,FL,MA,MD,HI,PA,NY,NE,SD​­­­,UT,WV,KY,LA,OK,OR. Let’s do our part – don;t let him lose the nomination”.

He’s father time and time’s running out on him.

Please explain.  If you are referring to Rothbard, then you would be incorrect.

Please explain.  If you are referring to Rothbard, then you would be incorrect.

When have we truly had free trade?  Embargos and tariffs have been used since the very beginning of the United States.  Please, do not make ridiculous comments about fair trade; it is only capitalism that can best allocate the scarcity of resources on this earth, and therefore provide the best standard of living to the most amount of people.

Do you truly believe that we are in danger of Iran invading the United States?  You should obviously realize how hard it is to invade a country, because the US can’t even take over Afghanistan, probably the least civilized country in the world.

Beyond your ‘logical’ argument, however, there lies an extreme moral displacement of your ideas.  You act as though war can be used by the state as a tool to keep things inline.  This is absurd; the state is a tool of oppresion, and its use of military only causes death and destruction.  If the troops were truly defending our freedom, they would be surrounding Washington D.C.  Your misunderstanding about war is that people DIE, and many innocent people at that.  A war is not just unless it is acting in true self defense.  Iran is the one acting in self defense in this case.  Please, realize that America has not always been the great savior that you think it is.

War propoganda.

No nation has the right to tell or influence another nation what to do. If Iran wants nuclear power thats their business. With our overwhelming nuclear force we have nothing to fear from Iran or any other country on this earth. Ron Paul seems to be the only candidate that has any common sense and he will keep us out of unnecessary wars or wars of choice. If the people of other countries choose to live under a dictatorship thats their business. If they revolt thats their business. Freedom isn’t appreciated unless it’s won by their people and their sacrafice. Since WW2 this country has wasted more lives and money on wars that were no concern of ours. Just think how robust our economy would be if all the lives and money spent on unnecessary wars were saved. Our government has ballooned with unnecessary departments that duplicate agencys that already exist in the states, why ? The cost of the federal government is too high for things we don’t need or already have. The biggest problem with too many laws is we don’t enforce them, we don’t need any more new laws, law enforcement is already overburdened with them. Common sense and the ten commandments are all the laws we need.

Yes, I am referring to Rothbard.

How would I be incorrect?  Paul can be best described as a minarchist.  He concedes that there are compulsory government services. 

Rothbard argued that ALL government services are inefficient and should be replaced with private sector entities.  But, I will concede that Paul is probably the only person Rothbard could approve of this day and age.

Let’s look at a little history here.

The U.S. got nuclear weapons before anyone else.Did we go to war to try to stop the Soviet Union and China from getting thousands of them?  No.

Pakistan is an Islamic country with extremist elements in the military. Did we go to war to try to stop them from getting nuclear weapons?  No.

North Korea is the world’s only hereditary communist dictatorship. It’s run by nuts who starve their only people. Did we go to war to try to stop them from getting nuclear weapons?  No.

India is our pal now, but they were allied with the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Did we go to war to try to stop them from getting nuclear weapons?  No.

But now we are huffing and puffing because a backwards country that can’t even refine their own gasoline might be trying to build a bomb. Even if they build a bomb, they don’t have a delivery vehicle that could threaten us. And even if they manage to get such a delivery vehicle years down the road, they won’t use it because they know that we’d incinerate their entire country if they did so.

All of this is nothing more than political grandstanding.

You are missing my point entirely. I was saying look at a map. Iran is surrounded on the east and the west by guess who? American forces who aren’t just sitting there. Iran is not supposed to be concerned about that?

An insufferable gaggle of right-wing political mongrels.  Intellectualism on display.

Star inflation. I admit I am shocked at that many four stars. Still they don’t need to create wars. That is still up to the politicians.

Right. Everybody knows that a true display of intellectualism is to call for your political opponents to be placed against a wall and shot. Right, Crunchy?

Typical “progressive” moron. A waste of flesh and life. Completely unworthy of the title human. Rancid decay of the body and mind.

“Common sense and the ten commandments are all the laws we need.”

Then you’re a simpleton, and a failed Libertarian because you forgot property rights.  Preventing “coveting” is not specific enough.
If you want a Libertarian paradise, then please, go live in Somalia.
I prefer to live in a place where everyone has access to education, at the very least.

Typical of a Libertarian to suggest that people pervert their party affiliation temporarily in order to subvert the electoral process. After all, you don’t believe in laws to protect people.   Why not let conservatives decide who they want to vote for?  If you try that trick in my state, you will likely find that you don’t have enough time to switch back before the election.  Ron Paul and his son Rand would repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964 if they could.  That’s not something that any thinking person can support.

Here is one Democratic Party member that does not support endless war, or support the hard right hawkish gov’t of Israel.
Romney is Gordon Gecko in the flesh, and he proved it by saying the corporations are people.  He might as well have said “Greed is good.  Greed works.”
9/11 happened under the Bush administration who disbanded the group following Bin Laden and ignored intelligence reports while hiding in Crawford.  You cannot blame Democrats for Bush’s mistakes.

Scarcity of recources? You know in most part we are talking cheap labor? How is it for thier standard of living working in a sweat shop?

Agreed.  He genuinely believes that civil rights laws should be repealed, including the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  He is a true believer, and that is why he should not get one single vote from a person with good moral character.  Racism is wrong, no matter who does it.

So, are you a racist who believes that there should be no civil rights laws to protect people?  You don’t sound like it.  I don’t think you’ve done your homework with Ron Paul.  He’s *way* out there.

“…we [the US gov't] messed with nobody and nobody messed with us, for the most part”.

July 4, 1675 -
August 12, 1676

King Philip’s War

New England Colonies vs. Wampanoag, Narragansett, and Nipmuck Indians

1689-1697

King William’s War

The English Colonies vs. France

1702-1713

Queen Anne’s War War of Spanish Succession)

The English Colonies vs. France

1744-1748

King George’s War (War of Austrian Succession)

The French Colonies vs. Great Britain

1756-1763

French and Indian War (Seven Years War)

The French Colonies vs. Great Britain

1759-1761

Cherokee War

English Colonists vs. Cherokee Indians

1775-1783

American Revolution

English Colonists vs. Great Britain

1798-1800

Franco-American Naval War

United States vs. France

1801-1805; 1815

Barbary Wars

United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli

1812-1815

War of 1812

United States vs. Great Britain

1813-1814

Creek War

United States vs. Creek Indians

1836

War of Texas Independence

Texas vs. Mexico

1846-1848

Mexican-American War

United States vs. Mexico

1861-1865

U.S. Civil War

Union vs. Confederacy

1898

Spanish-American War

United States vs. Spain

1914-1918

World War I

Triple
Alliance: Germany, Italy, and Austria-Hungary vs. Triple Entente:
Britain, France, and Russia. The United States joined on the side of the
Triple Entente in 1917.
Where did you study that you learned *nothing* of history?

Not interesting. Sounds good as angry revenge seeking, but is it practical? I’m not saying bend over and take it, but I am saying that “stop the enemies around the globe” “no matter how long it takes” is not a good mission statement. Now it the time to remain vigilant, but not the time to fight to the last man.

There will never be a last man to find and neutralize. We cannot always be on the offense, or Bin Laden will have won, even though he is dead.

You confuse Ron Paul with Rand Paul, his son. Plus, Paul the Younger got caught up an a Gottcha question that made him look racist. Paul the Elder doesn’t fall for Gottcha questions.

Well said!
It used to be that you could tell who’s side a nation was on by looking at its military equipment and commercial airlines. Soviet tanks and planes (or Chinese copies of the same) on one side, and US Stuff on the other side. That of French origin might end up on either side, but usually folks we would consider neutral.
After its independence from Britain, India went heavily socialist and Russia took advantage of that, but we pretty much considered India to be neutral, war wise.

You have to register as a republican voter if you want to vote for him.

1. Conservatives only make up a part of the GOP, not all of it. Your logic is like telling the liberals they are the only people who can vote in the Democratic primary.

2. As for the Civil Rights Act, only Congress has the power to repeal (assuming here the SCOTUS would never do that, yet stranger things could happen). But, just as a what-if, are you saying that Blacks aren’t equal, that we have a color classes? I don’t agree and I’m quite a thinking person. A protected class is really a problem if no longer needed…

3. If you registered GOP to vote for Ron Paul in primary, then got stuck registered as GOP, write in your vote if your state allows it and most do. And if your labors result in Paul being the GOP candidate, then you do not have to even switch. Paul is the REAL CHANGE candidate!

I’m also for Paul, BUT just gotta say that your assertion that the TP would abandon Bachmann because she was an IRS tax attorney is pretty lame…newsflash, they already know that.

I’m looking for someone in whom I can believe, trust and respect. Paul fits that bill.

Makes me salivate at the thought of a debate between Paul and Obama!

MSM: GOP Iran War Mongering
So obviously all eyes were turned to the GOP Presidential debate that
took place in Iowa last night, but while it’s worth discussing, it’s
safe to say the mainstream media doesn’t just discuss they obsess. What
about taking a look at our foreign policy and how we’ve been fighting a
10 year war in Afghanistan, we’re still in Iraq; we have drones and
elite teams in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and who knows where else. And
here we have another Iran war hawk, Rick Santorum, who basically said
he’s ready to get us involved in another war to make sure that Iran does
not get a nuclear weapon.
http://youtu.be/PXzqxT8bkMs

Ron Paul’s message hits America
Last night the GOP presidential candidates went head to head in a
debate. Many of the issues plaguing the US were talked about but one
voice emerged over the rest. Ron Paul was given a lot of air-time to
make his points which some people have complained about. Is a new era of
political thought around the bend? Kristine Frazao is in Iowa to tell
us more.
http://youtu.be/YqxViZJ2bcc

I do know it is more complicated than the simple explanation I gave. You are absolutely correct in saying we didn’t want either side to win outright. I thought explaining all of that would take too much time, but as you point out, it was necessary to understand the situation in full.

Most readers of this “general knowledge” site will get lost and bored with connections as distant (to them) as the Iran-Contra affair.

I gained some additional information about the Russian connection, but I do not know whether it is declassified yet, so I hope you will accept that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia was not as hostile to our presence in the region and was less supportive of Hussein.

I believe Obama had every intention of getting out of Afghanistan sooner and still wishes he could. He would also have emptied Gitmo if he could, but practicality overwhelms ideology and both have become Obama’s tar babies. (Yes, I know what tar baby really means. ;-])
The hardest job in politics and many other fields is cleaning up the mess someone else made.

Bringing it all back to last Wednesday, the American Christian Conservatives have done a 180 about Jews in general and Israel in particular since the end of WW II. America even turned away ships full of Jews, sending them back to Europe at one time.

 Back then, most revival type preachers were saying the Jews killed Christ and would all go to hell anyway since they refuse to acknowledge Him as their savior. More Jews in Israel meant fewer Jews in America, and that was fine with them.

These days, that is not proper PC. I believe it was the Catholic Pope who first decided to make up and be friends. Plus, Revelations says the Jews must control Israel for the second coming of Christ to happen. Now, the CCs are demanding that Israel be protected because if the Jews are kicked out again, the Second Coming will be delayed. (By a another 1,000 years?)

That is why the bible thumpers think Israel is even more inportant than the good old USA in God’s view.

stark was hit by Iraqi missiles, not Iranian.

Semantics.  Nitpicking at my choice of words.  Pathetic.
It does not alter the fact that Dan Binder is advocating mucking with the primary of an opposing party, which is underhanded and should not be allowed in my opinion.
As an election judge, I feel very strongly that parties should be allowed to select their own without outside interference.  Otherwise they will end up with people that don’t represent them, and that is not democratic, in my opinion.  Every Libertarian that I have spoken with is all for subverting the primary though.  Maybe because it fits in with their ideas that there should be no laws in general.
It also does not alter the fact that Ron Paul is on record as saying he would do away with civil rights laws that protect people.
Nice try to paint me as a racist though.  It’s Ron Paul that says that it’s okay not to serve blacks at a lunch counter, not me.  Look up the quote.  You’ll see that I’m right on this.  Ron Paul is a racist.  Sad but true.  How I *wish* that the GOP/Libertarians/Right Wing/whatever would find a decent candidate instead of this mixed bag of nuts that they’ve found.

Rick Santorum is a proud member of the Taliban wing of the Republican Party.  He wants to use the full force of the government to punish anyone who rejects his absolutist beliefs.  He would be a useful member of any dictator’s staff.

Jimmy Carter did more than ignore the Shah, he essentially forced him out and installed the mullahs.  The USA would be much better off if we minded our own business.

First of all, the evidence that Iran has been smuggling arms
into the country has not been given. 
Much of the fearmongering about Iran came at the height of the Bush
Administration’s push to invade the country, and if we are to take a lesson
from Iraq, we should realize that they were willing to lie about anything,
especially evidence for one of their wars. 
They haven’t shown the evidence, and the Wikileaks statements merely
rehash old information without any proof.

http://articles.latimes.com/print/2007/jan/23/world/fg-iraniraq23

“Scant evidence found of Iran-Iraq arms link; U.S.
warnings of advanced weaponry crossing the border are overstated, critics
say.”

“For all the aggressive rhetoric…the Bush
administration has provided scant evidence to support these claims. Nor have
reporters traveling with U.S. troops seen extensive signs of Iranian
involvement. During a recent sweep through a stronghold of Sunni insurgents
here, a single Iranian machine gun turned up among dozens of arms caches U.S.
troops uncovered. British officials have similarly accused Iran of meddling in
Iraqi affairs, but say they have not found Iranian-made weapons in areas they
patrol.

“The lack of publicly disclosed evidence has led to
questions about whether the administration is overstating its case. Some
suggest Bush and his aides are pointing to Iran to deflect blame for U.S.
setbacks in Iraq. Others suggest they are laying the foundation for a military
strike against Iran.”

Moreover, any Iranian made weapons or explosives that may in
fact be in Iraq are not necessarily coming directly from Iran or as a result of
an Iranian government policy:

“Outside military analysts have questioned how many of
these sorts of weapons actually come from Iran. The technology used to make
them is simple and widely known in the Middle East, they note. Iran is a likely
source for some of the more sophisticated devices, but other countries could
also be pitching in. ‘A lot of rather sophisticated weapons have actually been
released by Syria,’ said Peter Felstead, editor of the London-based Jane’s
Defense Weekly. Others note that smugglers could be bringing weapons across the
border from Iran without government approval.”

It continues: “U.S. officials have declined to provide
documentation of seized Iranian ordnance despite repeated requests. The U.S.
military often releases photographs of other weapons finds.”

And even if Iran was attacking US troops, let’s
not act as if we haven’t given them more than enough pretext to do so out of
self-defense.  Not only is the US’s
official policy on Iran regime change, but the Bush Administration was spending
millions of dollars funding terrorist groups in their Iran to wreak havoc in
their country, killing scores of innocent civilians.  And let’s not forget that we overthrew their
government and manufactured a CIA coup in their country, putting in power a
despotic dictator which murdered thousands of political enemies and brutally
crushed dissent.  Not to mention using
CIA assets to carry out false flag terror attacks in mosques, murdering
innocent people, to put pressure on their Mossadeq’s government.  And then there was our failed Nojeh coup,
where our buddies the Israelis leaked the plan and got hundreds of pro-US
officials murdered.

You obviously have a limited understanding of foreign affairs. That you have such a one-sided understanding indicates that you have been educated by US & Israeli propaganda media establishments. Now you need to go learn about the terrorism that the US has funded against Iran for many years & it continues today. Ever heard of the Jundullah, MEK, Rigi brothers, etc.? Didn’t think so.

Here’s a few resources to help you get started:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1543798/US-funds-terror-groups-to-sow-chaos-in-Iran.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRwUZ-u6KFo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnUWcjXvdlo

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1552784/Bush-sanctions-black-ops-against-Iran.html

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/05/bush_authorizes.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZRbLnbTtbo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy0DY6D9-uI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy0DY6D9-uI

Please go learn about foreign affairs before you go making nonsensical arguments.

Also – to say we should leave out from the discussion our coup to overthrow their democratically elected government is absurd. Your rush to discount historical events which undermine your argument shows desperation on your part. Would you also argue that we can’t approach the Israel-Palestinian conflict using any past historical knowledge because it doesn’t apply to the present? Your analogy is totally false. Of course we should look at the past history of US terrorism against Iran.

ARE YOU KIDDING????  Ron Paul is utterly out of his mind!!!!  Let Iran have a nuclear weapon????  YOU PEOPLE ARE MORE DESTRUCTIVE THAN THE LIBTARDS!!!!  Remember that ANTI-WAR Rhetoric???  It worked in the 30′s while Japan was killing 12 Million Chinese and attacked Pearl Harbor…  YOU PEOPLE ARE OUT OF YOUR MINDS!!!!  You actually think that a fatwa will simply go away if we “Don’t do anything and mind our own business?????”  OMG how ridiculous!!!

First and foremost we all are AMERICANS. We must continue to discuss,debate and express everything we can to each other whilewe still have that right. I believe we all stand for the CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA. This country need’s a serious, honest,comitted leader.I am 50,and never believed that I would see and hear an honest man running for PRESIDENT. DR. PAUL is a breed that comes along once in a 100 year’s.Obama has signed the pact for the north american union. Time  has ran out for all of us. DR. PAUL has my vote, and if I have to write in on election day, it will read DR. RON PAUL

That’s exactly his point… if trade was completely free, nothing would be ‘made in China’ because of high transport costs.

Well consider me in the position of Rothbard; with our current government, Paul is the only person I can approve of.

Sweat shops are more common in communist countries, i.e. China, where the government determines your job. These are the regular fear mongering talking points against the free market though. What is your alternative? The free market is the only idea where peaceful, voluntary action between people can occur.

You should put more question marks and exclamation marks, and then your argument will be even more convincing.  

First of all, your argument is self defeating.  It was the U.S.’s embargo and trade restrictions on Japan that led to them attacking Pear Harbor.  It should logically follow that sanctions against Iran will inevitably lead to war as well.  I suppose if war is your purpose, then keep on keeping on.  But for me, I prefer peace and free trade (not to mention human rights).  

Sanctions against Iran will only make things worse.  Do you truly believe Iran could attack the U.S.?  We can’t even conquer Afghanistan, and we have the most powerful military in the world.  

I say fair trade is what we need, If a country doesn’t follow the treatys we have negoitiate we respond in kind then we will truly have free trade.

Here is the meme I’d like help spreading.

I am a Republican and an ardent Paul supporter. We represent a large
plurality of the party. Our views are being discounted and our
candidate marginalized. I know GOP Leadership can affect this problem
and get Ron Paul the TV time his second place at Ames and wins elsewhere
have earned him. Therefore, if this problem is not corrected by GOP
Leadership and Ron Paul does not receive the nomination, I will vote a
straight Democrat ticket right down to dog catcher. I can and will make
you lose every seat in the House, the Senate, the State Senates,
Governorships, and every single other elected position right down to dog
catcher. If you correct the problem and Ron Paul is STILL not
nominated, you can count on my support as usual.

Hey you have to register as republican in your state to do that; just be careful and don’t be disappointed in the polls. Please check your states guidelines; I believe you must register as republican

Paul has no, nil, nada, nothing in the context of knowledge of international relations.  Perhaps Paul should be seeking the Chamberlain/(Joseph) Kennedy Aid and Abetting the Enemy Award?

The fact that Paul predicted 9/11 shows that he might know what is going on.  All the other candidates are oblivious to what people think outside of America.

Paul shows more common sense than all the other candidates put together. If you don’t want a president with common sense, don’t vote for him. Personally I’m sick of unnecessary wars that are draining our country dry of lives and fortune. After all the sacrifices we have made we have nothing to show for it other than to make more enemies and bury our dead soldiers. Our federal government has wasted lives and money because it can’t mind it’s own business. Our leaders want to attack Iran wihch is not a threat to us. We are provoking another war by sending unmanned flights over their country. It’s their air space, not ours, we have no business in or over their country. Our navy has already shot down one of Iran’s airliners by mistake, how many more civilians will we kill before this paranoia ends ? There is no reason for our military to be there, we have our own resorces here in the U.S. Get our government out of the way and we can prosper just fine.