Happy Thanksgiving to all….

Be happy. Be healthy. Be safe.

Rush Limbaugh is the new millinium’s version of Senator Joe McCarthy with some racism, homophobia, and oxycontin for good measure.
At least McCarthy was forced into accountability by the congress. Accountability…Fox News, yeah right when pigs fly.

You missed the part where he said we should seek retribution from the Indians for introducing us to smoking tobacco which kills 5 million a year.

…wow, this man sinks lower and lower every day. He demonstrates a lack of any type of knowledge of Native American culture. I’m surprised he didn’t rail on about how “Native American is a pc term”. Hope he realizes he just insult Jim Thorpe, John Herrington and Republican congressman Tom Cole, the only registered Native American in Congress.
Happy Thanksgiving folks

“Native Americans’ rich culture continues to add to our nation’s heritage” (here he inserted “at their casinos and reservations.”

whatta c*cksucker

Furthermore what “myth” is he talking about? It’s a FACT that Paxutet member Squanto helped teach Pilgrims how to survive in the area.
He details the “real” account of the first thanksgiving and says it was proof that socialism failed yet says this;
“Bradford assigned a plot of land to each family to work and manage, thus turning loose the power of the marketplace.”
That sounds like socialism to me.
Furthermore, it wasn’t even the “first” Thanksgiving. Limbaugh should brush up on his history more and stop distorting the little bit that he does know.

…me waits for some idiot teablogger to get here and say Rush was taken out of context and also it was all just a parody of the way the Left thinks….

…then they will say it was a joke….

…finally they will say….”HAHA…Rush does this just to push your buttons isn’t he great!?!?!

I hope I got the order right.

Big_F-ing_Deal said:
“Native Americans’ rich culture continues to add to our nation’s heritage” (here he inserted “at their casinos and reservations.”

whatta c*cksucker

Reminds me of a video from a couple years ago that went something like “The Indians; they made millions of dollars last year. They’re not paying taxes. I didn’t vote for that.”
Limbaugh negates the fact that the Native Americans actually had a very advanced system of math, the Aztecs in particular, they showered daily (something Europeans actually thought was unhealthy), had very beautiful cities (Cortez described the Aztec capital as looking like Paradise). Then, whether Limbaugh likes to admit it or not or whether anybody on here doesn’t like it, we came along.

Big_F-ing_Deal said:
…me waits for some idiot teablogger to get here and say Rush was taken out of context and also it was all just a parody of the way the Left thinks….

…then they will say it was a joke….

…finally they will say….”HAHA…Rush does this just to push your buttons isn’t he great!?!?!

I hope I got the order right.

Of course you got it wrong. They’ll say all of that in one post. Or to be correct, Bloyer will say it was out of context, Michelle will say something about the left, saranitaly will say it was a joke and notsosmart/just4thefax/johnsimpson/barney/me1ranger will say something about pushing buttons, the left, jokes and some degrading bullsh*t that makes us all pity him a little more.

For all you Righty’s who forgot, this is why decent Americans reject Limbaugh and he is not allowed to own a football team.

Like the Christmas song says…”They never let poor Limbaugh, join in any reindeer games”.

Big_F-ing_Deal said:
For all you Righty’s who forgot, this is why decent Americans reject Limbaugh and he is not allowed to own a football team.

Like the Christmas song says…”They never let poor Limbaugh, join in any reindeer games”.

You mean “bloods and crips” games

Maybe the writer should have actually listened to Rush. I don’t think I’ve ever read a worse, more biased summary of anything, ever. The writer would have to be trying to make Limbaugh look bad to screw it up this badly. As to Rush saying, “the true story of Thanksgiving is how socialism failed” – he’s been saying this whole bit for 15 years. Just how old is the writer? The Pilgrims initially experimented with a communal/Socialist approach, with all being shared equally regardless of input, and it was a miserable failure and they almost starved to death. No one would work anymore – sound familiar? Capitalism saved them and now the writer has a nice little apartment and a laptop on which to write scathing stories about successful Conservatives.

Rush is right, get over it.

Rush is right as usual, sharing is bad business, buying and selling is what works.
http://politicallyincorrectlibertarian.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/nightline-whines-about-high-corporate-profits/

Martel writes….but it sounds like the sort of thing American history scholars may have a bit of a problem with.

NO they would not. Rush is right as stated above he has been telling the story for years. The myths that Martel and the other lib nuts above believe is total nonsense.

This segment of his show is the perfect example of how the libs can’t stand the truth. He is making fun of the way lib historians have distorted our history.

“the Aztecs shorwered daily” ??? You forgot to mention that they invented the Delta faucet AND the Waterpic LMAO
Rush was right & Obama was wrong. DDSOS

The Pilgrims would have DIED without the aid of Squanto and the Wampanoag because they didn’t know ANYTHING about living off the land in a place they had never been before. This is basically grade school level history here. You simply cannot argue that the colonists at Plymouth weren’t saved by the knowledge and skills passed on to them by Native Americans in the region at that time. How do we know this? Because it comes from the accounts of people like Bradford, etc. My God…do any of you rightwingers ever read any history that doesn’t have the Beck/Limbaugh seal-of-approval???

“Throughout that first brutal winter, most of the colonists remained on board the ship, where they suffered from exposure, scurvy and outbreaks of contagious disease. Only half of the Mayflower’s original passengers and crew lived to see their first New England spring. In March, the remaining settlers moved ashore, where they received an astonishing visit from an Abenaki Indian who greeted them in English. Several days later, he returned with another Native American, Squanto, a member of the Pawtuxet tribe who had been kidnapped by an English sea captain and sold into slavery before escaping to London and returning to his homeland on an exploratory expedition. Squanto taught the Pilgrims, weakened by malnutrition and illness, how to cultivate corn, extract sap from maple trees, catch fish in the rivers and avoid poisonous plants. He also helped the settlers forge an alliance with the Wampanoag, a local tribe, which would endure for more than 50 years and tragically remains one of the sole examples of harmony between European colonists and Native Americans.

In November 1621, after the Pilgrims’ first corn harvest proved successful, Governor William Bradford organized a celebratory feast and invited a group of the fledgling colony’s Native American allies, including the Wampanoag chief Massasoit. Now remembered as American’s “first Thanksgiving”—although the Pilgrims themselves may not have used the term at the time—the festival lasted for three days. ” (http://www.history.com/topics/thanksgiving)

disenlightened said:
Maybe the writer should have actually listened to Rush. I don’t think I’ve ever read a worse, more biased summary of anything, ever. The writer would have to be trying to make Limbaugh look bad to screw it up this badly. As to Rush saying, “the true story of Thanksgiving is how socialism failed” – he’s been saying this whole bit for 15 years. Just how old is the writer? The Pilgrims initially experimented with a communal/Socialist approach, with all being shared equally regardless of input, and it was a miserable failure and they almost starved to death. No one would work anymore – sound familiar? Capitalism saved them and now the writer has a nice little apartment and a laptop on which to write scathing stories about successful Conservatives.

Yeah but what if , even though Rush has been repeating it for years, he’s still worng

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/21/weekinreview/21zernike.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

jay77 said:
The Pilgrims would have DIED without the aid of Squanto and the Wampanoag because they didn’t know ANYTHING about living off the land in a place they had never been before.

Most of them did die…

Of the 18 adult women, 13 died the first winter while another died in May. …

Anyway, I don’t care about Rush and his revisionist history, I care about him mocking Indian culture as “casinos and reservations” on Thanksgiving Eve just to take a shot at the president.

He’s a real scumbag without a decent bone in his body.

Rush is really a sad man.

A liar, a drug addict and a revisionist.

from William Bradford’s book, History of Plymouth Plantation (“Of Plimoth Plantation”), (pp. 99-100):

“They now begane to dispatch ye ship away which brought them over, which lay tille about this time, or ye begining of Aprill. The reasons on their parts why she stayed so long, was ye necessitie and danger that lay upon them, for it was well towards ye ende Desember before she could land any thing hear, or they able to receive anything ashore. Afterwards, ye 14. of Jan: the house which they had made for a generall randevoze by casulty fell afire, and some were faine to retire abord for shilter. Then the sicknes begane to fall sore amongst them, and ye weather so bad as they could not make much sooner any dispatch. Again, the Govr and cheefe of them, seeing so many dye, and fall downe sick dayly, thought it no wisdom to send away the ship, their condition considered, and ye danger they stood in from ye Indeans, till they could procure some shelter; and therfore thought it better to draw some more charge upon them selves & freinds, then hazard all. The mr. and sea-men like-wise, though before they haste ye passengers a shore to goone, now many of their men being dead, & of ye ablest of them (as is before noted), and of ye rest many lay sick & weake, ye mr. durst not put to sea, till he saw his men begine to recover, and ye hart of winter over.

Afterwords they (as many as were able) began to plant ther corne, in which servise Squanto stood them in great stead, showing them both ye manner how to set it, and after how to dress and tend it. Also he told them excepte they gotte fish & set with it (in these old grounds) it would come to nothing, and he showed them ye in ye midle of Aprill they should have store enough come up ye brooke, by which they begane to build, and taught them how to take it, and wher to get other provissions necessary for them; all which they found true by triall and experience. Some English seed they sew, as wheat and pease, but it came not to good, eather by ye badness of ye seed, or lateness of ye season, or both, or some other defecte.”

Big_F-ing_Deal said:
Most of them did die…

Of the 18 adult women, 13 died the first winter while another died in May. …

Anyway, I don’t care about Rush and his revisionist history, I care about him mocking Indian culture as “casinos and reservations” on Thanksgiving Eve just to take a shot at the president.

He’s a real scumbag without a decent bone in his body.

Exactly. They were in very sorry shape and would not have survived without that assistance. As someone who is part Native American, I must say that they I do care about his insane rightwing revisionism that they push to comport with their modern conservative “philosophy,” as well as a degenerate like Limbaugh mocking Native American culture to take a dig at the President. Honestly, how did they wind up on reservations in the first place??? And, yeah, they’ve made some money from the casinos. Good for them. They have every right to because people like Limbaugh and his ilk would like nothing more than for them to be erased entirely from history and American society.

And it’s not like the history of Plymouth isn’t easily verifiable. Though I suppose William Bradford was just another commie lib promoting “revisionist” history. lol

What a pig.

Fact: Who gives a crap at least I’ll get to eat turkey and pass out during the football game! Happy Thanksgiving to all. Even the misguided on this site and that’s the fact.

Big_F-ing_Deal said:
“Native Americans’ rich culture continues to add to our nation’s heritage” (here he inserted “at their casinos and reservations.” whatta c*cksucker

This is EXACTLY the reaction he wanted from you.

As usual, Rush wins again. You are silly putty in his hands.

People forget (or really they were never taught) that the Pilgrims, etc. thought the Indians were savages. And why is this? Because the Europeans were hundreds of years ahead of the Indians.

Do you ever hear much about Indian authors? Do you know why? It’s because they didn’t have a written language.

Now of course the Indians had a rich culture, but let’s be honest about the issues.

Thanksgiving was mostly about thanking God and not too much about the Indians. God brought the food and the Indians to help.

gordonbloyershow said:
Martel writes….but it sounds like the sort of thing American history scholars may have a bit of a problem with.

NO they would not. Rush is right as stated above he has been telling the story for years. The myths that Martel and the other lib nuts above believe is total nonsense.

This segment of his show is the perfect example of how the libs can’t stand the truth. He is making fun of the way lib historians have distorted our history.

Happy thanksgiving Gordon. You are one of the most insightful, kind, gentle, dare I say -brilliant people on this side of the Universe.

jay77 said:
Exactly. They were in very sorry shape and would not have survived without that assistance. As someone who is part Native American, I must say that they I do care about his insane rightwing revisionism that they push to comport with their modern conservative “philosophy,” as well as a degenerate like Limbaugh mocking Native American culture to take a dig at the President. Honestly, how did they wind up on reservations in the first place??? And, yeah, they’ve made some money from the casinos. Good for them. They have every right to because people like Limbaugh and his ilk would like nothing more than for them to be erased entirely from history and American society.

And it’s not like the history of Plymouth isn’t easily verifiable. Though I suppose William Bradford was just another commie lib promoting “revisionist” history. lol

Jay, think for a minute about the Indians plight over the past 50 to 75 years. Exactly who has pushed for massive Federal aid, etc? Liberals. And what has been the effects of the liberals’ efforts??? DEPENDENCY. Just like what the liberals have been doing to the inner cities for 50 years.

About all you can say about the results of this utter liberal control is there is a lot of hopelessness, despair and death.

What the liberals have done is WORSE than what was done in the distant past!

I recommend reading these two transcripts:

“”When spring finally came, Indians taught the settlers how to plant corn, fish for cod and skin beavers for coats. Life improved for the Pilgrims, but they did not yet prosper! This is important to understand because this is where modern American history lessons often end. Thanksgiving is actually explained in some textbooks as a holiday for which the Pilgrims gave thanks to the Indians for saving their lives, rather than as a devout expression of gratitude grounded in the tradition of both the Old and New Testaments. Here is the part that has been omitted: The original contract the Pilgrims had entered into with their merchant-sponsors in London called for everything they produced to go into a common store, and each member of the community was entitled to one common share. All of the land they cleared and the houses they built belong to the community as well.” They were collectivists! Now, “Bradford, who had become the new governor of the colony, recognized that this form of collectivism was as costly and destructive to the Pilgrims as that first harsh winter, which had taken so many lives.

“He decided to take bold action. Bradford assigned a plot of land to each family to work and manage, thus turning loose the power of the marketplace. … Long before Karl Marx was even born, the Pilgrims had discovered and experimented with what could only be described as socialism. And what happened? It didn’t work! Surprise, surprise, huh?”

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_112107/content/01125113.guest.html

Read that entire transcript, and then this one makes sense.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_112410/content/01125109.guest.html

“The Real Story of Thanksgiving,” in which Limbaugh argues (based upon texts such as Of Plymouth Plantation) that the early Puritans were communalists who, upon near starvation in the winter of 1621 with their system of common ownership of farm produce, switched to a free enterprise system and prospered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Plymouth_Plantation
http://www.mith2.umd.edu/eada/html/display.php?docs=bradford_history.xml

The History lessons are interesting. The insults and name calling
from all of the very clever leftwing nutjobs on this sight are as expected
per usual. It makes them feel somehow relevant. But the truth is Limbaugh
was doing his usual tweaking of you good folks and the MSM, and
guess what, he succeeded! What else is new?
I am thinking about starting a blog called the RushLimbaughReview.

Starting to feel sorry for my old friend Rush. He has been so surpassed recently by Beck, Palin, and FOX News that he is desperately trying to find any issue to ramp up attention. This one is just sad.

Rush wants to re-write history, but here is the actual intention of the Pilgrims, the Mayflower Compact, that they signed before setting foot on American land:

“Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, Covenant and Combine ourselves together into a Civil Body Politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute and frame such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.”

Happy Thanksgiving.

No arguments from me today, Happy Thanksgiving everyone and I hope you all have a joyful day and weekend with your love ones.

Thanksgiving tune reminiscent of home for Big Eddie :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwvazMc5EfE&feature=related

Hawk11 said:
Happy Thanksgiving to all…. Be happy. Be healthy. Be safe.

And May God Bless!

Alz said:
People forget (or really they were never taught) that the Pilgrims, etc. thought the Indians were savages. And why is this? Because the Europeans were hundreds of years ahead of the Indians. Do you ever hear much about Indian authors? Do you know why? It’s because they didn’t have a written language. Now of course the Indians had a rich culture, but let’s be honest about the issues. Thanksgiving was mostly about thanking God and not too much about the Indians. God brought the food and the Indians to help.

Shhhhhhhh….we can’t speak the truth anymore. It’s not allowed. The liberals will search you out, ransack your home, kill your family and throw you in prison. You said God.

The real dangerous consequence of the Thanksgiving dinner came from the introduction of the yam from Africa.
Candid yams contain truth serum
http://garygaddy.tripod.com/blog/index.blog?from=20071122

GaryGaddy said:
The real dangerous consequence of the Thanksgiving dinner came from the introduction of the yam from Africa.Candid yams contain truth serumhttp://garygaddy.tripod.com/blog/index.blog?from=20071122

Very funny columns . …118 holes in one day ? That’s a good day !

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
Limbaugh negates the fact that the Native Americans actually had a very advanced system of math, the Aztecs in particular, they showered daily (something Europeans actually thought was unhealthy), had very beautiful cities (Cortez described the Aztec capital as looking like Paradise). Then, whether Limbaugh likes to admit it or not or whether anybody on here doesn’t like it, we came along.

The Aztecs? What did they have to do with the Pilgrims? Here’s a hint: Nothing!

Alz said:
Jay, think for a minute about the Indians plight over the past 50 to 75 years. Exactly who has pushed for massive Federal aid, etc? Liberals. And what has been the effects of the liberals’ efforts??? DEPENDENCY. Just like what the liberals have been doing to the inner cities for 50 years. About all you can say about the results of this utter liberal control is there is a lot of hopelessness, despair and death. What the liberals have done is WORSE than what was done in the distant past!

The plight of Indians has been on going for many more than 50-75 years. To blame it on “liberals” is grasping at straws. What a cheat shot! Indians have been dependent since they were banished to reservations. They suffer from poverty and alcoholism. But of course any chance to blame a liberal.

sarainitaly said:
“The Real Story of Thanksgiving,” in which Limbaugh argues (based upon texts such as Of Plymouth Plantation) that the early Puritans were communalists who, upon near starvation in the winter of 1621 with their system of common ownership of farm produce, switched to a free enterprise system and prospered.

The problem with this theory is that they weren’t starving because they were socialists or “communalists”, they were starving because they were did not know how to grow or gather food in an unfamiliar country. They could have been raging capitolists, what good would that have done them? They had nothing to trade. Some people will go to any length to shoehorn events so that they fit their own agenda.

valkyrie101 said:
Starting to feel sorry for my old friend Rush. He has been so surpassed recently by Beck, Palin, and FOX News that he is desperately trying to find any issue to ramp up attention. This one is just sad.

He really has slipped in irrelevance. He is holed up in his mansion playing “the king of radio”. He is a very sad man. Pathetic actually.

. this website is very good, you can go and see it===clshoe.us===

http://www.disqus.com/ecplayers/

Bids said:
The plight of Indians has been on going for many more than 50-75 years. To blame it on “liberals” is grasping at straws. What a cheat shot! Indians have been dependent since they were banished to reservations. They suffer from poverty and alcoholism. But of course any chance to blame a liberal.

I’m blaming LIBERALS for their actions and other people who believe that LIBERALISM actually helps.

Think about how the liberal IDEAS (Liberalism) have screwed so many people – Indians and the inner cities to name two.

Bids said:
The plight of Indians has been on going for many more than 50-75 years. To blame it on “liberals” is grasping at straws. What a cheat shot! Indians have been dependent since they were banished to reservations. They suffer from poverty and alcoholism. But of course any chance to blame a liberal.

One more thing, blaming liberals is not “grasping at straws”, it’s the primary reason we have so many problems. I focus a lot on the plight of the inner cities because it is a perfect example. It’s a perfect example because the liberals have utter control in these areas and they have pushed out the conservative elements so we have a lot of data to look at.

The results are clear: the inner cities are a mess. You can’t blame Bush, “the last 8 years”, Republicans are conservatism, but we can blame the FIFTY f’in years of liberalism.

Think about how many families have been destroyed by this goofy thinking! And the liberals duplicated this thinking with the Indians!

The results of liberalism –> hopelessness, despair and death.

Wow, old Rushy boy really does live in his own small one brain cell bubble world doesn’t he? I wonder if he’s capable of having a peaceful & happy Thanksgiving dinner? You know, a time when he can give thanks that he’s free to share good food & give thanks he is free to speak what ever he wishes? Even if what he speaks is becoming more and more, a sign of insanity.
Ah, Probably not.

So, what exactly is the conservative answer to solving the problems of the inner cities?

littleboybloyer said:
Martel writes….but it sounds like the sort of thing American history scholars may have a bit of a problem with.

NO they would not. Rush is right as stated above he has been telling the story for years. The myths that Martel and the other lib nuts above believe is total nonsense.

This segment of his show is the perfect example of how the libs can’t stand the truth. He is making fun of the way lib historians have distorted our history.

Gordo, your hero and mentor is nothing more than a bigoted, obese, multiple-married, draft-evading drug addict with a penchant for diddling Dominican lady-boys.

You and he are both physically and morally repugnant.

bealzebubba said:
So, what exactly is the conservative answer to solving the problems of the inner cities?

Still curious to know this.

Alz said:
I’m blaming LIBERALS for their actions and other people who believe that LIBERALISM actually helps. Think about how the liberal IDEAS (Liberalism) have screwed so many people – Indians and the inner cities to name two.

LIBERALS didn’t screw the Indian, idiot.

no shit, we all did

So today John Stossel posts his story, ‘ How Socialism almost killed Thanksgiving.’ It contains the evidence that all the liberals commenting above swore didn’t exist. And it turns out, that socialist policies almost DID wipe a future America off the map. One thing that cant be disputed, is the obvious concept: When personal efforts are penalized they subside – when they are rewarded they increase. IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE COMPREHENDING THAT….YOU ARE BE A LIBERAL.

“So as it well appeared that famine must still ensue the next year also, if not some way prevented,” wrote Gov. William Bradford in his diary. The colonists, he said, “began to think how they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop than they had done, that they might not still thus languish in misery. At length after much debate of things, [I] [with the advice of the chiefest among them] gave way that they should set corn every man for his own particular, and in that regard trust to themselves. And so assigned to every family a parcel of land.”

In other words, the people of Plymouth moved from socialism to private farming. The results were dramatic.

“This had very good success,” Bradford wrote, “for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been. By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine, now God gave them plenty, and the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many.”

Because of the change, the first Thanksgiving could be held in November 1623.

Big_F-ing_Deal said:
they will say….”HAHA…Rush does this just to push your buttons isn’t he great!?!?!

BarneyFranken said:
This is EXACTLY the reaction he wanted from you.

As usual, Rush wins again. You are silly putty in his hands.

Probably NOT wrong said:
But the truth is Limbaugh
was doing his usual tweaking of you good folks and the MSM, and
guess what, he succeeded! What else is new?

Well, BFD, when you’re right, you’re right.

Not only that, but a little hint of “liberals are the cause of all of society’s ills” from the always wonderful Alz sprinkled in with it.

Anyways, happy Thanksgiving all!

Remember, if you haven’t busted at least one pair of pants today, you haven’t finished eating yet!!

Just Rush again. Appealing to his truck-driving friends & admirers. All of them searching for a crutch or cause to engender their herd mentality.

bealzebubba said:
Still curious to know this.

Our solution for the inner city is the same as it is for society as a whole. Here’s 3 easy ones:
Less government interference and regulation which means more opportunities and prosperity.
Cut slavery creating entitlements.
Give student vouchers and allow parents to send their children to ANY school they choose. (Instead of forcing them into deplorable institutions that are pathways to prison)

but it sounds like the sort of thing American history scholars may have a bit of a problem with.

Sorry but here is a scholar that agrees with Limbaugh. I find the libs comments here amusing. They are so wedded to the false history they go crazy when the truth is revealed. Most have not listened or read Limbaugh’s commentary. They just jump to conclusions based of edited excerts. LOL.

GUEST COMMENTARY: Thanksgiving Day by the book
By Andy Horning | Posted: Thursday, November 25, 2010 12:00 am

Given its place in American history, it’s shocking how we’ve perverted our Thanksgiving Day. Most Americans nurture a vague fiction involving buckled shoes and blunderbusses, in which Pilgrims and American Indians joined in a sort of agricultural group-hug to enjoy a bountiful harvest.

Others, with just enough facts to be dangerous, believe the Mayflower Compact created what we’d now call a “communist” government that ultimately proved successful. More correct, but still oversimplified, is that this communism was so disastrous that its few survivors were forced into free market economics.

William Bradford’s words have been used to support this. In his firsthand account, “Of Plymouth Plantation,” Bradford detailed their commune’s declining initiative, morality and crop yield, then summed up the failure of communism as:

“… the vanity of that conceit of Plato’s and other ancients applauded by some of later times; and that the taking away of property and bringing in community into a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God.”

It’s fine to say that what we now call “communism,” or its authoritarian cousin “socialism,” is both ancient and has been proved unworkable. But Thanksgiving was never about sound economics, filled bellies or Kumbaya fellowship. Nor was the Thanksgiving celebration of 1621 the first on American soil; nor was it the beginning of the national holiday.

Our nation’s Thanksgiving Day holiday was established in the midst of the Civil War as a penitent prayer and statement of political deference — to God. The proclamation, written by then Secretary of State William Seward, acknowledged the surprising strength of the nation in the midst of war and the unexpected foreign neutrality at the depths of our weakness, and said, “They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.”

Where are the politicians today who’d so humbly acknowledge sin, and turn praise away from their works and toward the Almighty? These days, even Christians erect a wall between their alleged faith and their government; though the Bible deals harshly with that Golden Calf we call politics.

And despite the modern, shallow interpretation of, “Then give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s,” the whole Bible says that everything belongs to God, including Caesar. That’s what made Christ’s reply to the Pharisees so piercing.

Psalm 33:12, “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,” has an unfortunate corollary: Cursed is the nation whose god is politics.

Christians should have learned this already, if not from our Bibles then from American history. And if not from our history then from current events.

Have we forgotten that faith in the Republicans’ “Contract with America” was followed by more unfounded faith in the Democrats’ “Hope and Change?” Now we’ve switched tribes and shamans again for the “Pledge to America,” but nothing has changed. Our national religion is still all about robbing Peter to pay Paul, where we pray to lawyers, lobbyists and politicians in a never-ending hope to be Paul. Meanwhile, somebody else, at least for a while, must be Peter.

This Thanksgiving, why not choose a way of life that is simple, biblical and constitutional and has been proved to work? Such a way exists, it’s already the law, and it could be yours for the asking — if you know Who to ask.

After all, politics is a junkyard dog, not an angel. “In God We Trust” means that In Politics We Must Never Trust. And Thanksgiving Day means, in the words of Seward, to “fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation.”

Amen to that.

Andrew Horning is an adjunct scholar of the Indiana Policy Review Foundation. The opinion expressed in this column is the writer’s and not necessarily that of The Times.

ondrock said:
And so assigned to every family a parcel of land.

Sounds more like anarchism than capitalism. Everyone was given a piece of land to work and receive the fruits of their own labor. Capitalism exploits labor, i.e., the capitalist hires labor in order to extract profit from that labor.

Any questions?

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gordonbloyershow said:
“… the vanity of that conceit of Plato’s and other ancients applauded by some of later times; and that the taking away of property and bringing in community into a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God.”

Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.

Judge Mental said:
The Aztecs? What did they have to do with the Pilgrims? Here’s a hint: Nothing!

Aztecs were wiped out by religious persecution and disease by the Catholics. The Aztec religion was deemed as evil and blasphemous so the Catholic priests destroyed their religious books and almost all Aztec history. Only 4 books remain today. Many Aztecs died from the bubonic plague brought over from Europe by these same explorers.

gordonbloyershow said:
Sorry but here is a scholar that agrees with Limbaugh.

Because it says scholar by his name? Can you tell us what his credentials are as a historian? That kinda matters. He just happens to be a frequent libertarian candidate.

Limbaugh is one of the most truly evil, base, callous, degenerate individuals I have ever in my life run across. It just amazes me that all his so-called “Christian” followers think his hate filled, nasty, racist rhetoric has God’s stamp of approval. I watched with much amusement as the right raced to cover for and make apologies for their beloved master when he was caught abusing Oxycontin, or toting Viagra (prescribed in another person’s name) to the Dom. Republic–now WHY on EARTH would such a good, Christian, respectable conservative “shining light” like Rush need VIAGRA on his vacation to a country well known for it’s sexual tourism industry? Even if it were just to “get it on” with a female (which I doubt)–well, what would Jesus say about THAT?

But that really doesn’t matter, does it? What matters is that Limbaugh CLAIMS that the Bible is important, that “family values” are important, that abstinence til marriage be taught to schoolchildren, that morality must be dictated by the Bible and legislated by the government. It doesn’t matter one whit it he does not believe or act upon those things.

You say that Rush is “tweaking” the “nutty libs”–that we fell right into his pudgy, cigar stained hands when we responded with ire to his blatantly racist remarks. I suggest to you that you conservative extremists are in fact the ones being “tweaked” by your idol. Rush does exactly what Rush wants to do, regardless of what the Bible, the Constitution, evangelical values, or anything else says. As Newt Gingrich so famously stated, it doesn’t matter what I DO, it matters what I SAY.

CosmosDan said:
Because it says scholar by his name? Can you tell us what his credentials are as a historian? That kinda matters. He just happens to be a frequent libertarian candidate.

Um yeah professor, the historian Stossel quoted (Gov. William Bradford) was actually there at the time. The excerpt was from his diary. But, I’m sure your account is much more credible.

CosmosDan said:
Yeah but what if , even though Rush has been repeating it for years, he’s still worng

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/21/weekinreview/21zernike.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Sorry, but a link to a New York Times article as proof of anything is laughable. They have no credibility. But, if you’d like to play “what if”, I can do that.

What if the Europeans had never come to North America? Would the native Americans still be living in small, stone age enclaves, fashioning weapons from rocks? Would they still be walking everywhere they went, living in tents and caves, at the mercy of the weather and forced to move with the seasons? Would their leading cause of death still be exposure? Would a long life still be 40? Would they have a written language, libraries, schools or colleges? Would they have modern medical and dental care? Would they have invented the wheel? Would they have invented the automobile and airplanes all by themselves, then built a system of highways and air traffic control? How about electricity? Radio, telephones, television? Would they even have developed large-scale farming or even warehouses to store food for the future?

Considering the native Americans had been around for thousands of years and were still living the same stone age existences of their forefathers, you have to wonder. The Pilgrims who came to this country were skilled farmers and craftsman, not the ignorant stooges the schools are portraying them as that would have never survived without the assistance and guidance of wise, fatherly native Americans.

Here’s another take on Thanksgiving:

http://wilstar.com/holidays/wash_thanks.html

Well, it turns Rush was right as always.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66QdQErc8JQ&feature=player_embedded

When the pilgrims tried sharing everything and working for nothing many starved to death, it was after they tried growing and selling things that they were able to profit, and it makes sense! Look at it this way, if I asked you to change my oil as a favor, good luck with that, but if I offer you $20 chances are you’ll do it.

It’s the same with charity, if you want the rich to donate to the Red Cross you throw a gala for them, wine them, dine them, make them feel special and then you asked them to give generously and they’ll will. Why else do they have silent auctions? Nothing impresses more than buying crap for charity for thousands of dollars in front of everyone.

Government can’t save us, just look at those disgusting housing projects filled with gangs, drugs and roaches? Give the people something free and they’ll waste it, make them earn it and they’ll treasure it.

http://politicallyincorrectlibertarian.wordpress.com/

gordonbloyershow said:
but it sounds like the sort of thing American history scholars may have a bit of a problem with. Sorry but here is a scholar that agrees with Limbaugh. I find the libs comments here amusing. They are so wedded to the false history they go crazy when the truth is revealed. Most have not listened or read Limbaugh’s commentary. They just jump to conclusions based of edited excerts. LOL. GUEST COMMENTARY: Thanksgiving Day by the bookBy Andy Horning | Posted: Thursday, November 25, 2010 12:00 am Given its place in American history, it’s shocking how we’ve perverted our Thanksgiving Day. Most Americans nurture a vague fiction involving buckled shoes and blunderbusses, in which Pilgrims and American Indians joined in a sort of agricultural group-hug to enjoy a bountiful harvest. Others, with just enough facts to be dangerous, believe the Mayflower Compact created what we’d now call a “communist” government that ultimately proved successful. More correct, but still oversimplified, is that this communism was so disastrous that its few survivors were forced into free market economics. William Bradford’s words have been used to support this. In his firsthand account, “Of Plymouth Plantation,” Bradford detailed their commune’s declining initiative, morality and crop yield, then summed up the failure of communism as: “… the vanity of that conceit of Plato’s and other ancients applauded by some of later times; and that the taking away of property and bringing in community into a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God.” It’s fine to say that what we now call “communism,” or its authoritarian cousin “socialism,” is both ancient and has been proved unworkable. But Thanksgiving was never about sound economics, filled bellies or Kumbaya fellowship. Nor was the Thanksgiving celebration of 1621 the first on American soil; nor was it the beginning of the national holiday. Our nation’s Thanksgiving Day holiday was established in the midst of the Civil War as a penitent prayer and statement of political deference — to God. The proclamation, written by then Secretary of State William Seward, acknowledged the surprising strength of the nation in the midst of war and the unexpected foreign neutrality at the depths of our weakness, and said, “They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.” Where are the politicians today who’d so humbly acknowledge sin, and turn praise away from their works and toward the Almighty? These days, even Christians erect a wall between their alleged faith and their government; though the Bible deals harshly with that Golden Calf we call politics. And despite the modern, shallow interpretation of, “Then give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s,” the whole Bible says that everything belongs to God, including Caesar. That’s what made Christ’s reply to the Pharisees so piercing. Psalm 33:12, “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,” has an unfortunate corollary: Cursed is the nation whose god is politics. Christians should have learned this already, if not from our Bibles then from American history. And if not from our history then from current events. Have we forgotten that faith in the Republicans’ “Contract with America” was followed by more unfounded faith in the Democrats’ “Hope and Change?” Now we’ve switched tribes and shamans again for the “Pledge to America,” but nothing has changed. Our national religion is still all about robbing Peter to pay Paul, where we pray to lawyers, lobbyists and politicians in a never-ending hope to be Paul. Meanwhile, somebody else, at least for a while, must be Peter. This Thanksgiving, why not choose a way of life that is simple, biblical and constitutional and has been proved to work? Such a way exists, it’s already the law, and it could be yours for the asking — if you know Who to ask. After all, politics is a junkyard dog, not an angel. “In God We Trust” means that In Politics We Must Never Trust. And Thanksgiving Day means, in the words of Seward, to “fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation.” Amen to that. Andrew Horning is an adjunct scholar of the Indiana Policy Review Foundation. The opinion expressed in this column is the writer’s and not necessarily that of The Times.

As usual, Blowhard, your Revisionist History is dead wrong:
In early autumn of 1621, the 53 surviving Pilgrims celebrated their successful harvest, as was the English custom. During this time, “many of the Indians coming… amongst the rest their great king Massasoit, with some ninety men.”

That 1621 celebration is remembered as the “First Thanksgiving in Plymouth.” The Pilgrims did not call this harvest festival a “Thanksgiving,” although they did give thanks to God. To them, a Day of Thanksgiving was purely religious. The first recorded religious Day of Thanksgiving was held in 1623 in response to a providential rainfall.

The religious day of thanksgiving and the harvest festival evolved into a single event: a yearly Thanksgiving, proclaimed by individual governors for a Thursday in November. The custom of an annual Thanksgiving celebrating abundance and family spread across America.

Some presidents proclaimed Thanksgivings, others did not. Abraham Lincoln began the tradition of an annual national Thanksgiving in 1863.

Thanksgiving is an enduring symbol from which millions of immigrants have learned “Americanism.” While not all Native Peoples celebrate the day, the story of the Pilgrims and Wampanoag sharing a harvest celebration remains an inspiration to many.
There are 2 (and only 2) primary sources
for the events of autumn 1621 in Plymouth :
Edward Winslow writing in Mourt’s Relation and
William Bradford writing in Of Plymouth Plantation

Edward Winslow, Mourt’s Relation :
“our harvest being gotten in, our governour sent foure men on fowling, that so we might after a speciall manner rejoyce together, after we had gathered the fruits of our labours ; they foure in one day killed as much fowle, as with a little helpe beside, served the Company almost a weeke, at which time amongst other Recreations, we exercised our Armes, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and amongst the rest their greatest king Massasoyt, with some ninetie men, whom for three dayes we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five Deere, which they brought to the Plantation and bestowed on our Governour, and upon the Captaine and others. And although it be not always so plentifull, as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so farre from want, that we often wish you partakers of our plentie.”

In modern spelling
“our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together, after we had gathered the fruits of our labors; they four in one day killed as much fowl, as with a little help beside, served the Company almost a week, at which time amongst other Recreations, we exercised our Arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and amongst the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five Deer, which they brought to the Plantation and bestowed on our Governor, and upon the Captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful, as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want, that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.”

William Bradford, Of Plimoth Plantation :
In the original 17th century spelling
“They begane now to gather in ye small harvest they had, and to fitte up their houses and dwellings against winter, being all well recovered in health & strenght, and had all things in good plenty; fFor as some were thus imployed in affairs abroad, others were excersised in fishing, aboute codd, & bass, & other fish, of which yey tooke good store, of which every family had their portion. All ye somer ther was no want. And now begane to come in store of foule, as winter approached, of which this place did abound when they came first (but afterward decreased by degrees). And besids water foule, ther was great store of wild Turkies, of which they tooke many, besids venison, &c. Besids, they had about a peck a meale a weeke to a person, or now since harvest, Indean corn to yt proportion. Which made many afterwards write so largly of their plenty hear to their freinds in England, which were not fained, but true reports.”

In modern spelling
“They began now to gather in the small harvest they had, and to fit up their houses and dwellings against winter, being all well recovered in health and strength and had all things in good plenty. For as some were thus employed in affairs abroad, others were exercised in fishing, about cod and bass and other fish, of which they took good store, of which every family had their portion. All the summer there was no want; and now began to come in store of fowl, as winter approached, of which this place did abound when they came first (but afterward decreased by degrees). And besides waterfowl there was great store of wild turkeys, of which they took many, besides venison, etc. Besides, they had about a peck of meal a week to a person, or now since harvest, Indian corn to that proportion. Which made many afterwards write so largely of their plenty here to their friends in England, which were not feigned but true reports.”

NOTE : The Mayflower arrived in Plymouth in December of 1620. No further ships arrived in Plymouth until immediately after that “First Thanksgiving” – the Fortune arrived in November of 1621. One of the passengers on the Fortune, William Hilton, wrote a letter home that November. Although he was not present at that “First Thanksgiving,” he does mention turkeys.
The letter of William Hilton, passenger on the Fortune

(The letter was written in November of 1621)
From Alexander Young’s Chronicles of the Pilgrim Fathers. Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1841.

Loving Cousin,
At our arrival in New Plymouth , in New England, we found all our friends and planters in good health, though they were left sick and weak, with very small means; the Indians round about us peaceable and friendly; the country very pleasant and temperate, yielding naturally, of itself, great store of fruits, as vines of divers sorts in great abundance. There is likewise walnuts, chestnuts, small nuts and plums, with much variety of flowers, roots and herbs, no less pleasant than wholesome and profitable. No place hath more gooseberrries and strawberries, nor better. Timber of all sorts you have in England doth cover the land, that affords beasts of divers sorts, and great flocks of turkey, quails, pigeons and partridges; many great lakes abounding with fish, fowl, beavers, and otters. The sea affords us great plenty of all excellent sorts of sea-fish, as the rivers and isles doth variety of wild fowl of most useful sorts. Mines we find, to our thinking; but neither the goodness nor quality we know. Better grain cannot be than the Indian corn, if we will plant it upon as good ground as a man need desire. We are all freeholders; the rent-day doth not trouble us; and all those good blessings we have, of which and what we list in their seasons for taking.
Our company are, for most part, very religious, honest people; the word of God sincerely taught us every Sabbath; so that I know not any thing a contented mind can here want. I desire your friendly care to send my wife and children to me, where I wish all the friends I have in England; and so I rest
Your loving kinsman,
William Hilton

THE 53 PILGRIMS
AT THE FIRST THANKSGIVING :

4 MARRIED WOMEN : Eleanor Billington, Mary Brewster, Elizabeth Hopkins, Susanna White Winslow.
5 ADOLESCENT GIRLS : Mary Chilton (14), Constance Hopkins (13 or 14), Priscilla Mullins (19), Elizabeth Tilley (14 or15) and Dorothy, the Carver’s unnamed maidservant, perhaps 18 or 19.
9 ADOLESCENT BOYS : Francis & John Billington, John Cooke, John Crackston, Samuel Fuller (2d), Giles Hopkins, William Latham, Joseph Rogers, Henry Samson.
13 YOUNG CHILDREN : Bartholomew, Mary & Remember Allerton, Love & Wrestling Brewster, Humility Cooper, Samuel Eaton, Damaris & Oceanus Hopkins, Desire Minter, Richard More, Resolved & Peregrine White.
22 MEN : John Alden, Isaac Allerton, John Billington, William Bradford, William Brewster, Peter Brown, Francis Cooke, Edward Doty, Francis Eaton, [first name unknown] Ely, Samuel Fuller, Richard Gardiner, John Goodman, Stephen Hopkins, John Howland, Edward Lester, George Soule, Myles Standish, William Trevor, Richard Warren, Edward Winslow, Gilbert Winslow.

FAMILY GROUPS :

ALDEN : John
ALLERTON : Isaac with children Bartholomew, Mary, Remember; the Allerton servant William Latham
BILLINGTON : John & Eleanor with sons Francis, John Jr.
BRADFORD : William
BREWSTER : William & Mary with sons Love, Wrestling; their ward Richard More
BROWNE / BROWN : Peter
CARVER: The Carver ward Desire Minter; the Carver servant John Howland; the Carver maidservant Dorothy.
CHILTON : Mary
COOKE : Francis with son John
CRACKSTON : John
EATON : Francis with son Samuel
ELY: Unknown adult man
FULLER : Samuel with nephew Samuel 2d
GARDINER : Richard
GOODMAN : John
HOPKINS : Stephen & Elizabeth with Giles, Constance, Damaris, Oceanus; their servants Edward Doty and Edward Leister.
MULLINS : Priscilla
ROGERS : Joseph
STANDISH : Myles
TILLEY : Elizabeth
TILLEY: Tilley wards Humility Cooper and Henry Samson
TREVOR / TREVORE : William
WARREN : Richard
WINSLOW : Edward & Susanna with her sons Resolved White & Peregrine White; Winslow servant George Soule
WINSLOW : Gilbert

Note : In Of Plymouth Plantation, William Bradford lists the Mayflower passengers and also tells us who died during the first winter of 1620/1621 and spring of 1621. No other ships arrived in Plymouth until after the “First Thanksgiving” celebration. The Pilgrims at the “First Thanksgiving” are all the Mayflower survivors.

———————————————————————
Lincoln declared Thanksgiving a National Holiday, even though it had been celebrated in several states for over 200 years.

When the white man landed here, there were no factories, there were no foundrys, the wheel was not in use, there were no multi-storey buildings, there was no masonry, and there were no books. If the white man had not landed here there still wouldn’t be any of those things.

We have so much to be thankful for, and you would think for one day, the retrograde rightwingers who infest this website would put down their bluster and BS and really take a look at this man they so revere. There is absolutely nothing redeemable about Limbaugh. He’s a nasty bully, a liar and un-Christian in the extreme. Is this a role model anyone should follow. The Plymouth Colony wasn’t about Marxists and Ayn Rand and the history of how European/Americans treated the Native Americans is nothing to be proud of. Limbaugh is a stain on our culture and history will regard him as nothing more than a demagogue and his followers as simple minded dupes.

Limbaugh is a brilliant mind and a true genius. The ignorant fools are his listeners.

pyrope said:
When the white man landed here, there were no factories, there were no foundrys, the wheel was not in use, there were no multi-storey buildings, there was no masonry, and there were no books. If the white man had not landed here there still wouldn’t be any of those things.

Are you saying the native Americans were too dump to evolve into learning how to do those things?

effing Nazi – yes I said it….

Frances Martel has no problem writing about something she obvioulsly knows nothing about.

ganymede said:
We have so much to be thankful for, and you would think for one day, the retrograde rightwingers who infest this website would put down their bluster and BS and really take a look at this man they so revere. There is absolutely nothing redeemable about Limbaugh. He’s a nasty bully, a liar and un-Christian in the extreme. Is this a role model anyone should follow. The Plymouth Colony wasn’t about Marxists and Ayn Rand and the history of how European/Americans treated the Native Americans is nothing to be proud of. Limbaugh is a stain on our culture and history will regard him as nothing more than a demagogue and his followers as simple minded dupes.

Another display of a left wing hate, not requiring actual knowledge about something, choosing instead to absorb other peoples thinking, and then spewing it out with out thought. Watch as ‘ganymede’ proves through public comment that he is a glittering jewel of colossal ignorance.

As agitated as the conservative commentator was over Obama’s buckle-hat tip to Native Americans, Media Matters notes that another well-known conservative named Ronald Reagan did the same in his 1981 proclamation:

“On this day of thanksgiving, it is appropriate that we recall the first Thanksgiving, celebrated in the autumn of 1621. After surviving a bitter winter, the Pilgrims planted and harvested a bountiful crop. After the harvest they gathered their families together and joined in celebration and prayer with the Native Americans who had taught them so much. Clearly our forefathers were thankful not only for the material well-being of their harvest but for this abundance of goodwill as well.”

ganymede said:
We have so much to be thankful for, and you would think for one day, the retrograde rightwingers who infest this website would put down their bluster and BS and really take a look at this man they so revere. There is absolutely nothing redeemable about Limbaugh. He’s a nasty bully, a liar and un-Christian in the extreme. Is this a role model anyone should follow. The Plymouth Colony wasn’t about Marxists and Ayn Rand and the history of how European/Americans treated the Native Americans is nothing to be proud of. Limbaugh is a stain on our culture and history will regard him as nothing more than a demagogue and his followers as simple minded dupes.

And this from the guy that predicted the dems would not lose the House on election day. He is a left-wing fool.

pyrope said:
When the white man landed here, there were no factories, there were no foundrys, the wheel was not in use, there were no multi-storey buildings, there was no masonry, and there were no books. If the white man had not landed here there still wouldn’t be any of those things.

Watch out, some people will call that racist even though it is true.

valkyrie101 said:
As agitated as the conservative commentator was over Obama’s buckle-hat tip to Native Americans, Media Matters notes that another well-known conservative named Ronald Reagan did the same in his 1981 proclamation:

“On this day of thanksgiving, it is appropriate that we recall the first Thanksgiving, celebrated in the autumn of 1621. After surviving a bitter winter, the Pilgrims planted and harvested a bountiful crop. After the harvest they gathered their families together and joined in celebration and prayer with the Native Americans who had taught them so much. Clearly our forefathers were thankful not only for the material well-being of their harvest but for this abundance of goodwill as well.”

Ronald Reagan, sadly, another victim of the liberal public school system.

ondrock said:
Um yeah professor, the historian Stossel quoted (Gov. William Bradford) was actually there at the time. The excerpt was from his diary. But, I’m sure your account is much more credible.

I was actually speaking to Gordon about the scholar he named , Andrew Horning.

Not only that, the Plymouth Papers are fairly extensive so pulling a quote or two from Bradford hardly proves Limbaugh is correct. If you’re really interested sara kindly posted a like to the papers. From my earlier link

Historians say that the settlers in Plymouth, and their supporters in England, did indeed agree to hold their property in common — William Bradford, the governor, referred to it in his writings as the “common course.” But the plan was in the interest of realizing a profit sooner, and was only intended for the short term; historians say the Pilgrims were more like shareholders in an early corporation than subjects of socialism.

“It was directed ultimately to private profit,” said Richard Pickering, a historian of early America and the deputy director of Plimoth Plantation, a museum devoted to keeping the Pilgrims’ story alive

Bradford did get rid of the common course — but it was in 1623, after the first Thanksgiving, and not because the system wasn’t working. The Pilgrims just didn’t like it. In the accounts of colonists, Mr. Pickering said, “there was griping and groaning.”

So the question isn’t whether there was a socialist like system , but whether Limbaugh’s version of the first Thanksgiving is accurate.

The other reason it’s pointless political propaganda is that nobody is seriously promoting the kind of total socialism the fear mongers keep warning against. There may be a few on the far left who think that’s a fine idea but the vast majority of this country would never allow it to happen, and most people who lean left don’t want that. We’re hoping for a healthy balance of responsible aide to those in need and policies that support business while imposing reasonable regulations to help prevent the melt down we just went through.

pyrope said:
When the white man landed here, there were no factories, there were no foundrys, the wheel was not in use, there were no multi-storey buildings, there was no masonry, and there were no books. If the white man had not landed here there still wouldn’t be any of those things.

and native Americans are ever so grateful.

greg454 said:
Well, it turns Rush was right as always.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66QdQErc8JQ&feature=player_embedded

According to your link the property was divided in 1623, two years after the first Thanksgiving.

CosmosDan said:
We’re hoping for a healthy balance of responsible aide to those in need and policies that support business while imposing reasonable regulations to help prevent the melt down we just went through.

That’s such bull. Liberals want a check. That’s all, a check. Oh, and maybe a comfortable couch.

Instead of dwelling on the ridiculous minutae of the pilgims daily timeline why don’t you ardent proponents of socialism simply point out a FREE socialist society that is/was succesful in the history of the world?

disenlightened said:
That’s such bull. Liberals want a check. That’s all, a check. Oh, and maybe a comfortable couch.

They want a check PLUS free housing, cable tv, iternet, I-pods, free transportation, free food, union wages for sitting on their ass,…oh wait, they already get all that.

disenlightened said:
The Pilgrims who came to this country were skilled farmers and craftsman, not the ignorant stooges the schools are portraying them as that would have never survived without the assistance and guidance of wise, fatherly native Americans.

But they were not native to the America’s which means they not familiar with what could grow here and what they could gather. The compendium of human knowledge for that society wasn’t as advanced as we are today so they weren’t able to make the assumption that they were in the same climate as back home, therefore assuming they could just look for this plant or that plant and start harvesting or planting. I’m not saying they were stupid or incapable.

Did you all hear about NBC’s latest attempt to BESMIRCH the memories of the heroes killed on Sept. 11?

They’ve named the deveoper of the Ground Zero VICTORY MOSQUE as a person of the year!!!
Spread the word to all your contacts.

Lesson learned once again is that there can be not compromise with the Intollerant Left – just confront them, and DEFEAT them!

disenlightened said:
Sorry, but a link to a New York Times article as proof of anything is laughable. They have no credibility.

While Rush repeating makes it historically accurate? We may look at history through the lens of our own bias but let’s at least look at the facts rather than distorted propaganda. From my link

Historians say that the settlers in Plymouth, and their supporters in England, did indeed agree to hold their property in common — William Bradford, the governor, referred to it in his writings as the “common course.” But the plan was in the interest of realizing a profit sooner, and was only intended for the short term; historians say the Pilgrims were more like shareholders in an early corporation than subjects of socialism.
“It was directed ultimately to private profit,” said Richard Pickering, a historian of early America and the deputy director of Plimoth Plantation, a museum devoted to keeping the Pilgrims’ story alive
Bradford did get rid of the common course — but it was in 1623, after the first Thanksgiving, and not because the system wasn’t working. The Pilgrims just didn’t like it. In the accounts of colonists, Mr. Pickering said, “there was griping and groaning.”

While it’s true that the colony made a change from it’s original communal form to something that rewarded the individual for their work , it has little to do with the first Thanksgiving in 1621, since the change wasn’t made until 1623.

It’s just political propaganda. Nobody is suggesting the kind of communal living the Pilgrims experimented with, and their “socialism, didn’t crash and burn, they simply chose another way.

There needs to be personal responsibility on both ends of the spectrum. Even the poor need to understand that something is expected of them and we must all work and contribute rather than be supported by the work of others, but IMO conservatives need to take a closer look at the personal responsibility of the rich and corporate giants who are also participants in this society. The mess we’re in now is due in large part to the irresponsible behavior of those who put short term profit over the overall welfare of the economy, and the corrupt relationship between corporations and government.

Take a look at the war profiteers who have gotten rich cheating taxpayers while our sons and daughters risk their lives in two wars. Personal responsibility has to do with more than just the poor doesn’t it? Doesn’t personal responsibility extend to the rich and the people building businesses?

disenlightened said:
That’s such bull. Liberals want a check. That’s all, a check. Oh, and maybe a comfortable couch.

Okay pal, if you are unable to have a realistic conversation we won’t bother.

There are liberals who work very hard and own businesses and create jobs , but never mind. Live in your partisan fantasy and see if that helps.

“Take a look at the war profiteers who have gotten rich cheating taxpayers while our sons and daughters risk their lives in two wars.”

—Our sons and daughters joined the military with the expectation that they might have to risk their lives. Don’t become a fireman if you’re afraid of fire, don’t become a soldier if you’re afraid of war. As for the profiteers, well, take the incentive away and good luck getting anything done.

“Personal responsibility has to do with more than just the poor doesn’t it? Doesn’t personal responsibility extend to the rich and the people building businesses?”

—I don’t believe in abstract concepts like those, I trust the marketplace and the system of laws.

http://politicallyincorrectlibertarian.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/segregations-back-with-sisters-splash/

timzank said:
Instead of dwelling on the ridiculous minutae of the pilgims daily timeline why don’t you ardent proponents of socialism simply point out a FREE socialist society that is/was succesful in the history of the world?

The reality is that very few liberals are ardent socialists or are proposing that kind of society. That’s a bullshit stereotype spread by pundits to get rich from talking smack.

The truth is that we are a society that is a blend of some socialism and some free enterprise, capitalism, which can work, but has to be watched and maintained because sometimes it gets out of whack.
personal responsibility, works for both extremes , the poor and the rich, as well as income redistribution. We don’t want to create a free ride or millions of dependents among the poor, but as government and corporate interests work together there is also a redistribution of money from the working class to the already wealthy.

In fact while we have record unemployment and a growing number of working poor , corporations are recording record profits, right now, during a recession that is still hurting the middle class.

timzank said:
Instead of dwelling on the ridiculous minutae of the pilgims daily timeline why don’t you ardent proponents of socialism simply point out a FREE socialist society that is/was succesful in the history of the world?

If I were a wise guy I might mention this one

Acts 2:44-45
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

Acts 4:32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.NKJV

but I’m not, so I won’t.

greg454 said:
—Our sons and daughters joined the military with the expectation that they might have to risk their lives. Don’t become a fireman if you’re afraid of fire, don’t become a soldier if you’re afraid of war.

Of course they expect risk. They also expect their leaders to make responsible decisions and not risk their lives unnecessarily. Firemen don’t want people to start fires just so they’ll have something to do.
Generalities that don’t deal with the real world don’t help that much.

greg454 said:
As for the profiteers, well, take the incentive away and good luck getting anything done.

Nobody is suggesting they make zero profit. Price gouging the American taxpayers , who’s children are the ones dying, is a moral abomination and a reality. Defending it for political ideology is willful ignorance.

greg454 said:
—I don’t believe in abstract concepts like those, I trust the marketplace and the system of laws.

Abstract concepts like personal responsibility? Okay. Since humans are made up of intellect and emotion, you might want to at least consider them.
Conservatives often complain that social programs breed laziness and dependency and too many poor are just looking for a free ride. There’s an element of truth to that. Getting them off the government teat, promotes personal responsibility.
The other end of that is the reality of greed and power that corrupts some of our large corporations and our elected officials in DC. Marketplace principles are themselves somewhat abstract when compared to reality, aren’t they?
Would one business use money to pay officials to keep out competition? Would they compete unfairly to get government contracts? In the real world we have to deal with the reality of personal responsibility that runs the spectrum of humanity.

CosmosDan said:
Okay pal, if you are unable to have a realistic conversation we won’t bother.

There are liberals who work very hard and own businesses and create jobs , but never mind. Live in your partisan fantasy and see if that helps.

You belong to a very tiny minority of those who vote as you do. I don’t doubt you work hard, and there are others like you who work hard and play by the rules – I know some of them – but most Democrats want a check, plain and simple. You know I’m right. Admit it and the weight will be lifted.

CosmosDan said:
Bradford did get rid of the common course — but it was in 1623, after the first Thanksgiving, and not because the system wasn’t working. The Pilgrims just didn’t like it. In the accounts of colonists, Mr. Pickering said, “there was griping and groaning.”

The second sentence contradicts the first. To say it was working, then say they hated it? People don’t hate what works. They hated it and it wasn’t working, just like people today hate affirmative action, quotas and welfare abuse.

Alz said:
I’m blaming LIBERALS for their actions and other people who believe that LIBERALISM actually helps. Think about how the liberal IDEAS (Liberalism) have screwed so many people – Indians and the inner cities to name two.

and when the Republicans were in office why did they do nothing to help or change this???You blame everything on liberals on one hand then some of you have the balls to say that liberals only make-up 20% of the electorate. Well why don’t you all powerful republicans take steps to change all of this bad stuff you bitch about on here. They have sure had their chance when they were in the majority. No they are never concerned with these kind of problems that the liberals have created. They are only concerned with the rich and the corporations. You would think that the Reps/Senators in the states that have indian reservations would peopose something that would correct this. No you say. Oh well I suppose there are more important things to do. It is just like the abortion issue. They scream and cry about it but I don’t remember them ever seriously trying to change it. Republicans just like to whine.

bealzebubba said:
But they were not native to the America’s which means they not familiar with what could grow here and what they could gather. The compendium of human knowledge for that society wasn’t as advanced as we are today so they weren’t able to make the assumption that they were in the same climate as back home, therefore assuming they could just look for this plant or that plant and start harvesting or planting. I’m not saying they were stupid or incapable.

Fair point, but knowing which berries are safe to eat and which plants grow in a region are not exactly examples of sophisticated knowledge.

I work in a women’s shelter. With a little help from us most women are able to turn their lives around and become productive people. I see it happen all the time. Yes, there will always be a few that try to game the system. The majority are not trying to do that. Instead of spouting your big mouths off on some blog about things you have no detailed information about why don’t you spend some time working to do just a little help that often goes a long way.

By the way we are NOT financed by the government. Most of our financing come from private donations.

BlackWidow said:
They are only concerned with the rich and the corporations

Now, there’s a level of sophistication sadly lacking in this country today, by gum.

disenlightened said:
The second sentence contradicts the first. To say it was working, then say they hated it? People don’t hate what works. They hated it and it wasn’t working, just like people today hate affirmative action, quotas and welfare abuse.

My point was that it wasn’t a huge financial failure that resulted in starvation or anything like that. RL’s presentation of the real Thanksgiving is political propaganda and nothing more.

disenlightened said:
You belong to a very tiny minority of those who vote as you do. I don’t doubt you work hard, and there are others like you who work hard and play by the rules – I know some of them – but most Democrats want a check, plain and simple. You know I’m right. Admit it and the weight will be lifted.

Since I know lots of hard working liberals who believe in earning your keep and helping others, I’m going to have to disagree. Partisan stereotypes from either side is just useless bullshit used by the media politicians, and pundits

the real john t said:
1 2
pyrope said:
When the white man landed here, there were no factories, there were no foundrys, the wheel was not in use, there were no multi-storey buildings, there was no masonry, and there were no books. If the white man had not landed here there still wouldn’t be any of those things.
Are you saying the native Americans were too dump to evolve into learning how to do those things?

I am a Ute and must acknowlege Pyrope’s remarks as being true. Speaking from my own studies on the matter, we “Indians” perceived our relationship with our surroundings much differently than did the whites, and we had many other philosophical and political differences, too. “Indians,” as we are erroneously called, wouldn’t likely have developed the wheel for some time as we normally did not attempt to move objects larger than we could carry. While we generally perceive ourselves as being subserviant to the Earth, the whites perceive themselves as being the Earth’s master. Both attitudes have merit with the limitations being that we must always respect our environment.

Even after the Spaniards brought the use of the horse to our collective cultures, the saddle and wagon did not seem to be advantageous to us and we chose to ride bareback, controlling the steed with the hackamore instead of the bridle.

As for written language and “books,” we largely used pictographs to convey stories and “history,” but more often we conveyed these things via lore and custom. The Cherokee are credited to be the first to develop a written alphabet, but if one looks at it, one finds it to be markedly similar to the Roman alphabet.

The popular stories about cultivating corn are romantic in the eyes of many white people but the fact is, the cultivation practices in use before the whites came were so rudimentary that the crop yield was, by comparison, insufficient to feed more than a handfull of people.

While I am proud of my heritage–as I DESERVE to be–I must pay homage to my white bretheren for the improvements they have brought to this country and to all people. It is highly unlikely that many innoavtions, inventions, and processes would have been developed by now had the white man not interceded–look at Africa and the conditions of its peoples for reference.

gordonbloyershow said:
Watch out, some people will call that racist even though it is true.

LMAO!! Did you and this other boob attend Bob’s Remedial College?

BlackWidow said:
and when the Republicans were in office why did they do nothing to help or change this???You blame everything on liberals on one hand then some of you have the balls to say that liberals only make-up 20% of the electorate. Well why don’t you all powerful republicans take steps to change all of this bad stuff you bitch about on here. They have sure had their chance when they were in the majority. No they are never concerned with these kind of problems that the liberals have created. They are only concerned with the rich and the corporations. You would think that the Reps/Senators in the states that have indian reservations would peopose something that would correct this. No you say. Oh well I suppose there are more important things to do. It is just like the abortion issue. They scream and cry about it but I don’t remember them ever seriously trying to change it. Republicans just like to whine.

But I correctly point out that liberals UTTERLY control the inner cities and have controlled them for 50 years. This is what I focus on because it is so obvious.

Any time a conservative talks about the inner cities, the left cries racism – all the while the liberals are CONTENT with the hopelessness, despair and death that their ideas create and foster. Think about it: 50 years of liberals running the inner cities and they will not adapt!

CosmosDan said:
My point was that it wasn’t a huge financial failure that resulted in starvation or anything like that. RL’s presentation of the real Thanksgiving is political propaganda and nothing more.

You even admitted there was some truth to it, now you say it’s nothing more than political propaganda? Which is it? What part is untrue, specifically?

SarahP said:
LMAO!! Did you and this other boob attend Bob’s Remedial College?

SarahP has a game. SarahP uses Sarah Palin’s face as an avatar. SarahP then provokes those she thinks might like Sarah Palin. SarahP hopes this will cause them, in some fantastically psychological manner, to then begin disliking Sarah Palin. It’s a cute little game, kinda like playing Barbies at the Beach. I bet SarahP still has those Barbies somewhere in a box, nicely labeled with a Sharpie to prevent smearing.

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disenlightened said:
You even admitted there was some truth to it, now you say it’s nothing more than political propaganda? Which is it? What part is untrue, specifically?

It’s not that complicated.

The first Thanksgiving in 1621 was not about the failure of socialism since they didn’t get a parcel of land until 1623, and the socialistic/communal nature of their colony was never a huge financial failure. Bradford changed it because of complaints. So Rush’s interpretation is political propaganda.

There actually was communal living for a couple of years which was later changed to something more individualistic. That’s the element of truth.

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CosmosDan said:
The first Thanksgiving in 1621 was not about the failure of socialism since they didn’t get a parcel of land until 1623, and the socialistic/communal nature of their colony was never a huge financial failure. Bradford changed it because of complaints. So Rush’s interpretation is political propaganda.

Again, it was “never a huge financial failure”, which implies it was some degree of failure, and it was “changed because of complaints”, which further implies failure because people dislike what doesn’t work for them.

gordonbloyershow said:
Martel writes….but it sounds like the sort of thing American history scholars may have a bit of a problem with.

NO they would not. Rush is right as stated above he has been telling the story for years. The myths that Martel and the other lib nuts above believe is total nonsense.

This segment of his show is the perfect example of how the libs can’t stand the truth. He is making fun of the way lib historians have distorted our history.

You really have a thing for Rush. Rush is wrong as usual. He makes money spewing half truths and lies with hyperbole yo those not aware enough or who are to lazy to seek out the truth. I feel embarrassed by the ignorance of those who actually I naive enough to admit they listen to Rush Limbaugh. Most Americans of substance upon hearing you say that will dismiss you as a nut job or idiot. You need to take your head out of the sand and learn something about our country, our history and then maybe the world. Where did you do to school? did you go to school? Do you read any scholarly publications? You amaze me with your lack of knowledge. You actually seem like a nice enough guy, probably good for a few laughs over a beer but your political understanding is infantile at best.

Alz said:
I’m blaming LIBERALS for their actions and other people who believe that LIBERALISM actually helps.

Think about how the liberal IDEAS (Liberalism) have screwed so many people – Indians and the inner cities to name two.

Liberal attitudes screwed the Indians. Euro-American thievery, dishonesty and genocide screwed the native American populations, not liberal ideas. Liberal ideas and policies tried to stop the genocide but they failed fue to greed and barbarism practiced by first the European colonists then the American settlers and government.

Alz said:
People forget (or really they were never taught) that the Pilgrims, etc. thought the Indians were savages. And why is this? Because the Europeans were hundreds of years ahead of the Indians.

Do you ever hear much about Indian authors? Do you know why? It’s because they didn’t have a written language.

Now of course the Indians had a rich culture, but let’s be honest about the issues.

Thanksgiving was mostly about thanking God and not too much about the Indians. God brought the food and the Indians to help.

If you think Europeans were hundreds of years ahead of the native American population you clearly are not looking at Europeans moral values. They stole the land and their descendants committed mass genocide against these people. They wiped out entire first peoples nations like the Caribs. Europeans and their descendants were incredibly barbaric in their treatment of indigenous Americans. This history is one of the most shameful events in human history. These same barbarians engaged in the most brutal event in recorded history, the transatlantic slave trade and slavery murdering millions more. Do you really think Europeans were so advanced. They seem to have been quite primitive to me.

disenlightened said:
Again, it was “never a huge financial failure”, which implies it was some degree of failure, and it was “changed because of complaints”, which further implies failure because people dislike what doesn’t work for them.

Sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that good ole Rush , year after year, distorts the facts to make some point.

Again, I don’t think most liberals even want the kind of communal , all out socialism that Rush and Glenn like to warn against. It just helps their ratings and wallets to exaggerate, over simplify, and distort.

My God. I stumbled upon this website through Facebook, and I’m fucking shocked. Fucking. Shocked.

Where the fuck are these conservative teabloggers getting their revisionist history from? Just because Glenn Beck or Rush writes or says something does not automatically make it true. And even if they are quoting a source, that does not make that SOURCE valid unless the information IN that source has been verified.

Just because a person doesn’t share your same backwater deep south borderline racist “KILL’EM AN’ GRILL’EM” mentality does not make that person wrong.

There is not liberal overlord that I worship, nor are there secret liberal rites that I perform whenever I go about my daily business.

I found it interesting and related to another article here about Bill Maher here’s GOP MO rep repeating this same nonsense with a little extra flourish.
“They knew it wasn’t Biblical”
Um, well it is if you read Acts.

“They knew it was theft”
They did, thanks you Krescan.

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What a show. Y’all, (with a few exceptions) English Teacher, never taught Y’ll about the Art of ‘Precis’.

Is like everybody here, (with a few exceptions) trying to see who can -’Out-Pontificate’ each other.

This is what used to be referred to, at the time the ‘Mayflower Crew’ arrived at the other side of India, as ‘Popery’.

I wont ‘Daintify’ this with any un-dignified comments. Y’all, remember to get a ‘Designated Driver’, & then ‘Paint the Town, River, or whatever’, & my favorite color is ‘A lighter shade of pale’. So, that by Monday morning, we can all revel, in “The sounds of Silence”, with my respects to Messrs -. ‘Simon & Garfunkel’, as we all also give a name to “I rode through the Valley on a horse with no name”, with deep acknowledgement to the Messrs.- ‘Crosby Stills & Nash’.

Y’all have FUN, you hear.!!!!

BarneyFranken said:
This is EXACTLY the reaction he wanted from you.

As usual, Rush wins again. You are silly putty in his hands.

actually its pretty sad jabba and the likes of his dittonuts would use race baiting and shock value as a measure of success. Hey this is party of family values folks!!!!

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Slake said:
My God. I stumbled upon this website through Facebook, and I’m fucking shocked. Fucking. Shocked. Where the fuck are these conservative teabloggers getting their revisionist history from? Just because Glenn Beck or Rush writes or says something does not automatically make it true. And even if they are quoting a source, that does not make that SOURCE valid unless the information IN that source has been verified. Just because a person doesn’t share your same backwater deep south borderline racist “KILL’EM AN’ GRILL’EM” mentality does not make that person wrong. There is not liberal overlord that I worship, nor are there secret liberal rites that I perform whenever I go about my daily business.

Fact: Fuck I’ll give you my one finger salute plus a few arm farts to boot so go back to facebook asshole!

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It is clear you know nothing of Native American history or culture. True to your name.