Doesn’t even look like it a little bit. People need to stop spreading nonesense

I would have assumed lightning bolts.

Another example of young soldiers thinking something is fun and harmless when really its stupid and offensive.  If not for the (deserved) sensitivity of the vets and families who suffered from WWII, my objection  would be the font used.  They obviously intended a comparison to the Nazi SS.  That doesn’t mean they ‘like’ the SS, they may have been using the comparison the same way as if they compared themselves to people eating piranhas or Klingons.  Regardless of intent, it’s still stupid and shouldn’t have been done.  I don’t think I’d argue for any kind of discipline other than duty assignment for creating a situation that was disrespectful to the service, but nothing  should be put in their files, but the flag should be burned and it made very clear any tattoos or t-shirts or anything else with the SS be purged from their unit and any other units.

 Well, other that the fact that it looks exactly like it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel
http://www.micetrap.net/keychains/Schutzstaffel_black_keychain.jpg
http://www.giftshop.uk.com/user/products/large/German-SS-Schutzstaffel-flag-cufflinks.jpg
http://timechinablog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/index.jpg?w=300&h=300

i don’t think there ever was any black Nazis.  Clearly two of the marines in the picture are African Americans.  

 pretty fair assessment.

The rock band KISS has been using the same font style S in their name since the mid 1970′s and I’ve never once heard of such a charge. Another case of anti-war clowns making something of nothing. 

it looks like the KISS logo

I trust Liberals to have the knowledge of history and the ‘esprit de corps’ of soldiers to know when enough time has passed, that a symbol has reached historical obliquity.  Apparently, even though few people truly know about the Schutz Staffel and the difference between the Alghemein and Waffen SS, or even the existence of such.  A limited plurality of busy body Liberals do, and thats what counts, right? 

After all, those same Liberals have been after the Bible, the Cross, the phrase in “God we trust too.”  So let’s just let those Liberals in all their wisdom and deliberation make decisions and choices for us? 

There so smart! 

Great pic, great bunch a guys!

Thanks, Marines.

The SS slashes are actually called “runes.”  

How about YOU Mr. Fokker?  You have chosen the name and emblem of an aircraft company that made German aircraft in WWI.  The Fokker DVII was best fighter plane of that war and responsible for many allied deaths. Maybe we should get the Liberal PC patrol to come after you?

Oops, thats right, your one of the PC Liberals, so you are exempt!  OUCH!

Purveyor

Good Point!  We will have to get the ACLU right on it!

One would think that since it is Conservative common “knowledge” that the Nazi party was a liberal leftist organization, they would be offended by the use of a Nazi symbol (or what could easily be perceived as a Nazi symbol) by US troops. Odd then, the comments from the Right here.

Maybe my real name is Fokker.

First thing I thought of after seeing it was KISS…..not nazis. I do agree with Chuck’s sentiment above though. I don’t think it was intended malice. After all, the USMC lost thousands to the vile nazi vermin during WWII. 

THAT’S EVEN WORSE!

Being a good Liberal you must be concerned about the fragile sensibilities of only a handful of people, regardless of the inconvenience of the many so as to be consistent with political correctness?

You should change your name to some bland, content neutral, generic, inoffensive series of alpha numeric, such as… THX1138?

How can you live yourself knowing that you are offending someone?

Oh the humanity!

Help me…  There’s a mad fokker on the loose!

Really? Do you really think it’s okay for our soldiers to don Nazi symbols? The Nazi’s were the greatest evil the world has ever seen. They wanted to create a master race to rule the world, and our ancestors died to make sure that didn’t happen. Would you call those people “busy body liberals” too?

ISHMAEL, long time no see?

I believe this is a form of philosophical protest.  Despite the history of the NAZI SS, I for one am grow weary of Leftist sensibilities, which are anything but sensible?

Purveyor

Furthermore, NAZI regalia is common in 1% Motorcycle Clubs.  Anybody here feel like making a personal complaint to the Hell’s Angels?

They ain’t havin fun, till YOU’VE dialed 911…  Ouch!

I take it you are a “busy body Liberal?  Ouch!

Anyway, I thought I managed to make a nice analogy through transition to the peculiar Liberal idiosyncrasy of solving every problem, whether we need it or not?  (I even inserted a bit mirth to my comment)

Anyway, regarding your assertion that the “NAZI’s were the greatest evil the world has ever seen?”

Don’t forget your Communist friends Lenin, Stalin and the Soviet Union.  I’d call it at least a toss up?

Purveyor

KISS LOGO
http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/so-you-think-you-know-rock-band-logos-kiss/

While similar, the top portions of the Kiss “s” were smaller than the bottom while the Nazi SS had proportional top and bottom.  Gene Simmons (who is Jewish) went out of his way many times to point out the differences.

 a very obscure movie reference (THX1138) does not aid your case dumba$$ and the “SS” symbol is offensive and is just as stupid as that Stupid republican claiming he was just honoring the service of German soldiers by forming and participating in a Nazi based historical military re-enactors group.He lost to a democrat and claimed it was a smear campaign distorting his support for people to learn history. But he did not accept that it could be offensive to others to be a Nazi even in a re-enactment.

these marines screwed the pooch on this issue and a unit commander should have put an end to its use before some dumba$$ marine got his picture taken with that symbol.

 Yes we all love Biker Nazis and the Hells Angels have denounced those who claim the symbols are an expression of dis-satisfaction with society as being racist and offensive.

“Standing by the side of the road, the hitchhiker leveled his thumb, in the calm, cool calculus of reason”

“Story of her boyfriend of teenage stoned, death games, handsome lad, dead in a car.

We could plot a murder, or start a religion.

My gang will get you, scenes of rape in the arroyo”

The question to me is why would these Marines WANT a logo that could so easily be mistaken for  the Nazi SS logo? I was born less then a decade after WWII ended and grew up with the war and its horrors still fresh in everyone’s memories, our fathers were WWII vets. Is it just that with passing of time the people born decades later just know the war through the cold pages of history books and grainy black and white documentaries? Do we expect too much for them to ‘feel’ the memories of the war like we older folks do?

Get a new flag.

I’m as conservative as they come, and I think it’s disgusting that our Marines would pose in front of a flag used by the Nazis. Absolutely disgusting. Perhaps a history course should be mandatory in boot camp these days. What an absolute disgrace.

Good. Let’s exonerate and set scot free marines who committed actual atrocities and war crimes in Fallougah and Hadeetha. The victims were cockroaches anyway masquerading as Iraqi citizens

& let’s scrutinize marines photographed next to vaguely shaped symbols because it might offend sensibilities of a certain segment in our society.. & preferably let’s abolish the letter S from the alphabet

It’s the symbol of the SS- that should offend EVERYONE, not a “certain segment in our society.”

Symbols evolve and change over time; if they want to adopt this hated flag and give it a different meaning then go for it.

Bunch of demagogues

Lets try to put it into perspective…This group of people are United States Marines, They kill people with one shot a mile away on a routine basis. They are not a high school football team or rock band. There are a tool that’s used to advance United States Foreign Policy and when there told to get rid of that flag only thing your going to hear is “Yes Sir”.
So stop crying like your part of the team.

“Stop me before I Fokker again”

“Easy on that clutch Bill, you’ll Fokker that engine”

(Thanks and apologies to the late George Carlin)

THOMAS,

By 1943, The Waffen SS too, began to realize the war was lost.  However, such did not deter those men.In fact, the Waffen SS unofficially began to refer to themselves as: ”mein bruderschaft geschicksals” (my brotherhood of fate)As all soldiers tend to do, they fought for each other and on the Eastern Front, they could do nothing less as the German Army was being overwhelmed, not overmatched.Purveyor(note: THOMAS, you bore me to tears.  You are the kind of person that is sent to Hell, just to torment with tedium, other’s who ended up there, but, it could have gone either way for them.)Ouch!

So I guess Christopher Waltz getting an academy award for his role in Inglorious Baterds was offensive then? Or the actors who portrayed the nazis in Band of Brothers? I don’t remember the outrage surrounding all the movies about WWII that had actors “re-enacting” the war as Nazi’s.

I think I’ll call you deluded instead.

Nazism was in no way a liberal leftist organization. It was an historical abomination with its roots firmly in the right.

No, just because a bunch of vicious murderers use the letters s,o,c,i,a, and l in their name, that doesn’t actually make them leftists. Especially when they spend the entire 15 years (or so) of their existence murdering Marxists, moderate clergy, and a decidedly centrist middle class drawn from one ethnic group.

Get a clue. With regard to the Holocaust, they give ‘em away for free.

Trying to explain them away, you mean.

Except all the heat they’ve taken for their stupid logo over the last 30 years ago.

And which they’re forbidden by law to use in Germany.

Please note: just because you’ve never heard of something doesn’t actually affect it’s reality.

Ironically, half of the band are Jewish. 

Trust me, the SS symbol hasn’t reached historical obliquity (which doesn’t mean what you think it means), unless you mean the symbol has caromed off its historical path and is on the way to becoming something else. Which is still not a very good use of “obliquity,” and is kind of wacky in its own right.

Neither has it reached obsolescence, stopped being overtly offensive, escaped public opprobrium, or ever been considered un-objectionable.

This is nothing more nor less than an intensely grotesque and ignorant use of such a symbol.

And while time heals the wounds and the suvivors of Nazi evil pass away, millions and millions and millions of people know exactly what that symbols stands for, and Americans who know are embarrassed and ashamed to have it associated with our military.

Also, your lumping the SS in with the Bible, the cross, and “in God We Trust” as things liberals “have been after” is just plain odd. You might want to think that one through again.

Fokker still makes airplanes. I rode in one of them today. There were no SS runes in the cabin, on the wings, or in the in-flight magazine.

Actually, they didn’t have an in-flight magazine, because it was a charter.

Not your best one, sorry.

Frankly you’re not especially good at pretending to understand the liberal mindset (to the degree that such a thing exists) and when you go off on an unfunny mock-rant about stuff that just isn’t real, well, ya know . . .

You used “context.” Righties don’t do context.

 Adios Mediaite.  I wouldn’t want to be a part of a censored forum!

I “trust” my own knowledge and conclusions more than I do yours, but thank you. I stand by everything I wrote last night, even my use of the word “obliquity.”

I considered “esoteric” and/or “arcane,” however, such implies the information to have always been veiled or slightly hidden in general. Also, I looked at the word “diminished,” but that seemed to imply a substantive, not just perceived diminution, of Germany’s culpability in WWII. Furthermore, I considered the word “pretense” or derivations thereof. But, as the Marine credo is “semper fidelis,” I naturally assumed those Marines, being young and educated by a Liberal/Socialist secondary teachers, did not have a proper history education while in High School. BUT, would not deliberately lie. (Thus began the “obliquity” of which I referred too. Lefty High School teachers are to blame)

Ergo, Those young Marines did not truly understand the implications behind the “SS runes” They had, however, been told of the supposed virtues of Marx, I am quite sure.

Hence I arrived at “obliquity,” etymologically derived from the word “oblique.” “Indirectness or deliberate obscurity of speech or conduct.” Those young men simply saw a “cool” symbol with which to heighten their esprit de corps. All that is needed is a simple history lesson from their commanding officer. Not to chastised by unappreciative Leftists who are rooting for the enemy.

As for my humor, I guess it’s OK for Jon Stewart to use sarcasm and denigration, but, perish the thought of any ‘quid pro quo’? Ouch!

Purveyor

I say use a swastika.
Don’t forget, the Nazis weren’t the first to use the swastika.
It has been in use for literally thousands of years.
So what difference does it make if our fightin’ boys use a swastika to use strength and unity. 
The Nazis don’t have a monopoly on that symbol.
People are just too sensitive. 

Using that flag is crossing a red line: those men must be morons to adopt such a symbol.

No, James, they aren’t morons.  Basically they are just kids.  As a human being, I look back on some of the things I did when I was their age, and I really did some dumb things.  As a Vietnam Vet, I am particularly sensitive to all the criticism our troops get from the real morons.  The ones who have never been shot at, who have never had friends in the morning who were gone in the evening, who have never had people actively trying to kill them.  Give these guys a good talking-to and leave it alone.

Because nazi-related items are banned in most of europe, most kids over there associate the lightning-bolt SS to the last half of the logo of the costume rock band KISS.

The facts are, nazis NEVER used a flag like the one in the picture.
Have you ever seen the logo the band KISS used on all their album covers, by the way?

The nazi SS logo was the crossed-S swastika. They also used a double-lightning-bolt on some of their flags, signifying the blitzkrieg. Why aren’t you protesting football’s use of the word “blitz” to describe a defensive play that was used by the nazi army as an offensive strategy, by the way?

No….that is absolutly the SS symbol and these guys are idiots For hanging it up.  First the urination incident..now this.  I like the military, but the USMC has been needlessly embarrassing itself lately…and they need to put the kibosh on this crap quickly.

Actually they lost thousands to the japanese. Very few marines served or died int the european theater.

Millions of holocaust victims were rounded up and executed under the SS’s hands.

A lot of US Armed Forces–including Marines–died fighting the Axis powers. After the swastika, the SS was the front symbol of that evil.

This isn’t PC police BS and this isn’t about politics.

Those kids were being completely ignorant and I know some Marines that are WWII veterans who find that flag very offensive to themselves personally (considering they lost their buddies and their youth in the fighting) and to the image of the Marine Corps.

True but they died fighting the Axis powers and the SS symbol is a well known symbol of those nations’ evil deeds.

The word “blitz” isn’t an infamous organisation that rounded up millions of civilians and systematically murdered them.

 I agree with your stance that some symbols are not copyrighted by the NAZI party. This is especially true if they are not an exact copy.
For example, the Buddhist mystic symbol is all horizontals and verticals, while the NAZIs tilted it. With that reasoning, a double lightning bolt sign or flag in a different color would not be SS. I believe the SS symbol was white on black. Is it the same when white on blue? How about gold on blue? Or, what about a single bolt or three bolts?
I was shocked to see that some folks were upset by the number 88, claiming it was connected with the NAZIS.

They didn’t use it as a flag I don’t think, but that was the well known insignia for that evil organisation of mass murderers. 

But’s that’s splitting hairs. I completely agree with you. It’s also sad that people here and in the media are using this for political attacks on each other.

The facts are that you don’t understand how offensive it is and why.

They are not “just kids.” They have a chain of command that is very much adult.
The symbolism does not belong to the NAZI party with a copyright.

So by that logic then let’s use the swastika for a sports team logo and hope that everyone understands its new meaning and not get offended? It doesn’t work like that dude.

Yeah tell that to holocaust survivors.

Is there a ‘don’t use any former enemy symbols or hate symbols’ rule in military manuals?

I agree that they didn’t realize what they were doing. 

Not a great decision to use Nazi iconography. I’d be worried if they were over there killing Jews, but they’re not, they’re killing Muslims, so it’s all good. If this gives them an edge, then go for it.

 I believe the definition of obliquity you chose is “The quality of being deceptive,” which was your intent. Other than your foolish rant against the education system and your paranoia about Marxism, I support your general comments.

 Stalin and Hitler? Yes. A toss-up.

Let us not forget the NAZI eagle! Any use of an eagle is now forbidden. 

I don’t care if they are wearing Grateful Dead T-shirts as long as they are killing the enemy
What’s the beef?

CARVER,

Thank you for helping make my point. Those young Marines were, more than likely, “Ignorant” as to the insidious, historical nature of the their newly chosen symbol. As I mentioned, somehow, someway, that symbol has lost its gravitas and the young Marines only saw something as “cool,” not a symbol of mass murder. (note: see my comment regarding the Leftist education those young men received in High School)

As for your assertion that “this isn’t about politics,” of course it is! Why else would such have made its way to Mediaite whereby cowardly, Socialist-Liberals can defame the individual Marines as well as the military in General.

Note:(You do know that Marines only fought in the Pacific theater of WWII.? The NAVY did patrol the Atlantic even participating in missions over France and Mediterranean. Unfortunately, The NAVY F4F Wildcats frequently took friendly fire from anti-aircraft batteries, under the mistaken belief they were German FW 190′s)

Purveyor

 If the flag had been “Hammer & Sickle” the left wouldn’t even bother to report it, and the lefties would cheer, despite the fact that 20th century “socialists” killed far more than the Nazis.

 Actually, Hitler was an amateur compared to Stalin and Mao.

The same people complaining about this are the same people who burn and defecate on the American flag while claiming their rights to the “Freedom of speech.”

Ignore the idiots.

Yept Bo36mm,

You try so hard, I almost feel bad for you. Unfortunately, I am too strong an opponent with too strong a position to be defeated. You may consider me “paranoid” while I see you as naive.

From my perspective, I would rather be paranoid and wrong than naive and… History is replete with many, many societies that suffered because people such as yourself who denied the potency of their enemies.

As for the word “obliquity,” I searched for a word or phrase that would connote an unintentional, perhaps temporal obfuscation of how some people would view the use of the SS runes. I suggest the real tragedy is the (non-pejorative) “ignorance” exhibited by those Marines. Somehow the lessons of NAZI Germany and the Holocaust were not taught and an appropriate sensitivity was/is lacking in those men?

This is NOT a PC issue, rather an example of the fundamental failure of America’s education system, from Kindergarten through post graduate. The Bill Ayers types from the 60s became America’s teachers in the 80s and, of course, they taught their world view. America now has subsequent generations teaching Socialism and revisionist history, even in Geography clasees! (See: Jay Bennish, Colorado teacher)

Socialism used to enter the mainstream establishment through the Union Hall. Now Socialism enters through the Teacher’s Lounge

Purveyor

MAC,

I tend to agree, however, let’s call it a toss up and let this “sleeping dog lie?”

Simply pit, Socialism, no matter what form it takes, breeds evil! Tragically, there are many American’s who have somehow lost sight of that reality.

Nice to make your acquaintance MAC691

Purveyor

Yes it does look like flag of hate but you don’t get idiot & moron and your wrong.

The flag is of hate and I can’t stand why Marines would take a photo with a flag that supports hate what were they thinking? There idiots & morons for taking that photo.

A bold statement, indeed! Unfortunately, those “idiots” are in our midst. The question remains what they will do, how they will act if we are threatened from the outside? Will they support their homeland or our enemies?

What is even stranger is we continue to invite our enemy, to make his home in our land?

“Ignore the idiots,” we might not have that luxury as we could have enemies without and within?

Nice to make your acquaintance ARMAND1

Purveyor

no argument there. Of course the Japanese and Germans had more of an alliance of convenience than anything else. Their culture and ideology were completely different. I suppose in a way they both viewed themselves as ethnically and culturally superior to the countries they victimized.

Study your history & you’d know. Even good people have twisted minds.

Is there a ‘don’t use any former enemy symbols or hate symbols’ rule in military manuals?

Yeah, it’s called using your brain.

No doubt.  But the larger point is, these guys know the politically charged evironment they operate in, along with the enemy’s ability to exploit things like this for the purposes of propoganda.

And doing stuff like this is just like shooting themselve in the foot… 

You’re quite correct about having “enemies without and within”. While our Military were being killed in Vietnam, these same sort of people were burning the american flag in our streets while waving the flag of our enemies. They wear Mao and Che’ shirts today in the open and still have the nerve to comment on this photo.

They are all hypocrites who don’t deserve comment.

Stay vigilant, I like your style.

Armand

Nice try.

The Nazi swastika was not displayed the same as the early swastika that was used as a peace sybol. It was turned to the side a bit, so yes, the Nazis did have a monopoly on thier swastika style.  do some homework before you’re supporting our fighting boys use of the nazi swastika, lands them in jail.  

Precisely. 

More of our current “heroes”??

Good people don’t have twisted minds….silly….People who are “thought” to be good can have twisted minds though….so don’t bring Obama into this….stay on topic.

Wars, especially this war, is about “hearts and minds” as much as it’s about casualty numbers. And while I understand conservatives love love love to grab their balls and their gun and said “f*ck everyone, blow ‘em all away, who gives a f*ck about anything else”, thankfully we have 5-star, top shelf commanders at the top who don’t think this way. They have an overarching strategy that involves more than just giving right-wing mediaite commenters a hard-on.  Obviously, these commanders aren’t happy with the actions of these men. And while I’m sure the commenters posting on this topic are much smarter than the commanders in the field, I’ll leave it those commanders to decide what’s right. Not a bunch of Neanderthal, mouth-breathing idiots on mediaite.

And are losing the war…….A Year after we leave what will Afghanistan look like?

Just look at what is happening to Iraq, Obama and Liberals Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory.

Wars are to be won, Then You rebuild the country into the best interest of Your National Needs.

WWII set the bar on how a war is conducted.

 It takes a great deal of naivete to be truly paranoid.
Communism has been discredited and destroyed as a potentially dominant ideology. 

Clinging to it as a “great threat” is like clinging to CDs as your primary source of music. If you have a great deal of money invested in CD and a CD player, then stick with it. If you have entered the 21st century in other ways, then why not also enter the 21st century in political thought and concerns as well?

“You rebuild the country into the best interest of Your National Needs”?

You are a dangerous and possibly demented person and I thank goodness you will never have enough power to rebuild the entire world to whatever image you personally see fit. I’m glad I vote because my vote cancels out your vote.

At least it’s below the American Flag…

Before everyone goes all crazy, I think the question is whether some Marines actually do use this as a “Scout Sniper” symbol that has nothing to do with anything Nazi-related. I personally never would have jumped to the “Nazi!” conclusion upon seeing this photo. I would have assumed the flag stood for a unit or something. 

I went to a Marine website and found a few comments:

If you think Marines are defending nazism, then you are an idiot. Scout Snipers have used the “SS” as long as I can remember. 

I have this tattooed on my calf, I’m a Sniper not a Nazi. I have had this tattoo for the last 13 of my 17 years of being a Marine, way to pick up on old news Marine Corps Times. 

Jesus! Really? the SS bolts have been used forever in the Corps and Scout Snipers its much like the RECON JACK.. this is nothing noteworthy or new… Just the Media running out of ideas to defame my Marine Corps. 

Maybe he’s a big Ben Stiller fan and loved “Meet the Fokkers”

I got nothing but love for our boys in harm’s way but they really have to stop acting like dumbasses when ever a camera is around, They should know better by now.

Well what did we do after WWII to Germany and Japan, We rebuilt those countries to suit our National Interest, and created the long period of peace in history.

Now how do you think every other country in the world operates?

In the Best Interest of their Own Nation, First Last and Always.

ps: That is the beauty of the electoral system, You can’t cancel out my vote.

pps: You need a course in civics and government.

I still don’t see politics here; just people that want to make it about politics such as yourself.

Yes the Marines fought in the Pacific Theater, duh!

I know plenty of liberals that are supportive of (or are in) our military branches.

Don’t make the reporting of some mistakes of some of our young guys a political issue. It’s the dumb as rocks ‘everything’s news’ digital news age.

I’m a fokker, he’s a fokker, wouldn’t you like to be a fokker too? (humor)

True that

More BS from the Political Correct Sickos!  So friggin what if it is an SS flag!  Let some of these whimpy Leftists go do the fighting if they don’t like what our good military men are doing!  Of course, with whimpy Leftists, like Obama, we would be defeated before we began!  Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

As for your first paragraph, you’ve made a clever play on words. However, the substance of such as a useable argument, is moot. Was Neville Chamberlain, naive or paranoid?

As for the second paragraph: Making an analogy by comparing an inorganic to an organic interaction, lacks depth and of course, “substance.” I challenge you to suggest two instances of human interaction, in contrast, that would support your viewpoint?

Yes, indeed, Rome was under the impression that Carthage was no longer a “great threat?” Ouch!

“Never underestimate a subdued enemy, as he will plot to rise again”

Sun Tzu

Purveyor

CARVER,

Do you actually read what I write, or, do you have minimal comprehension?

First, I didn’t make this topic Political, the Media and Mediaite did. I am DEFENDING the Marines, NOT being overly critical of them!

Second, regarding the Marines in WWII.  You are the one who linked two sentences in one paragraph that easily could have been misinterpreted.

As for your knowing liberals that support and fight in “our military branches.”  What’s your point?  If any one group is prone to criticize those Marines it sure isn’t a group of grumpy Conservative Veterans, at the VFW Hall.  Rather it is Liberals, Progressives and Socialists!

“Duh”  

I actually can’t blame our troops for becoming Nazis.  Today’s  military goes thru more than any American military in history.  Not only have they been forced to regulate civil wars for the past 11 years, but unlike any other long standing war time military in American history, they have been forced to continue this service non stop without the relief of a draft.  Unlike Vietnam where they only did 2 or 3 tours of duty, today’s military does 8 tours of duty in Iraq and in Afghanistan.  This would drive anyone nuts.  Please have some consideration for the other 1% that serves this country so that the rest of us don’t have to.  

EXPAT,

I suspect you know much of this but for arguments sake:

 The original name was  ”National Socialist German (Deutsches) Workers Party,” or NASDAP.

I am confident that I can argue successfully, the NAZI party that eventually evolved and took power in Germany was indeed “Socialism.”  Conversely, you could credibly argue that it was NOT a form of Socialism, as such would not be easily recognizable to a contemporary westerner?  But, was, indeed, a form or derivation thereof.

The NAZI’s and the Bolsheviks (Communists) came of age at roughly the same time and in any political movement, risking confusing your theories name and ideology with another’s, is counterproductive.  Communism was seen as viable political party in Germany and Europe, hence, Hitler had to have been careful and savvy enough NOT to risk confusing the competing parties/ideologies?

Yet, to the German citizen, (volk) Hitler managed to include the term “Socialist?”  Apparently, ‘das volk’ understood, clearly, the meaning of NAZIism, when to you and I, such appears as an imprecise conglomeration of politics, racism and nationalism?

Thus, your statement regarding NAZIism…”firmly in the right” is incorrect.  In truth, I suggest that the era of NAZIism, does not belong in a contemporary political   argument as the politics were bastardized, mercurial and opportune?

Suffice to say, by 1934, NAZI Germany was a despotic Dictatorship! 

(note: I find writing the word NAZI, this many times, unpleasant and disturbing)

Purveyor

If you do not mind me asking, where were you when you flew in a Fokker aircraft?

I used to know somebody who posted by that name, he was a Cop in New Mexico that liked to vacation in Mexico?

Planning any trips South of the Border, Gringo?  Ouch!

Purveyor

BLACK EAGLE,

I completely agree with your main point.  If you read any of my comments I said virtually, the same thing.  (except, typically I used way more words than necessary.  In other words, I tend to exhibit “prolixity.” LOL)

As for your minor error regarding the Marines, be assured, your point is still valid. Knowing Inside Guy, he was only clarifying not criticizing.  The subject of “Military History in the 20th Century” is a BIG one!

Purveyor

I recently finished “With the Old Breed” by Eugene Sledge, and “Into the Rising Sun,” by Patrick O’Donnell.

Have you ever read James Bradley’s second book “Fly Boys”?  Is about the battle in and around Chi Chi Jima, which was north of Iwo.  That is where George Bush came within a whisker of being captured.  The Japanese on that Island were war criminals… Excellent read!

Purveyor

IF, and perish the thought, Obama is given another four years to dismantle America, I’d rather not think about what “symbols,” “logos,” etc, will be ”
“‘verboten’ by law to use in America.”

Politically Correct will take on a whole new dynamic!

Purveyor

SKYFET,

I suggest, only suggest, as I have no direct knowledge, that the Jewish members of Kiss have achieved a rational objectivity.  Such that seems to elude the rabidly politically correct?

Many of the ACLU’s crusades are case in point as that organization cannot separate a “rational,” appropriate target from one that is inconsequential.

The Boy Scouts, for instance, also, a City in California that has cross and church on that cities official seal is another example, only two of many.

I am reminded of the phrase “win the battle but lose the war.”  Then again, just what war is the ACLU fighting?

My Compliments to Mr. Simmons and company for their example of reason in a sea of the irrational.

Purveyor

Nazis most resoundingly were not socialists by any meaningful definition of the term. The evidence is unanimous and overwhelming. This is not subject to any nuances of historical interpretation. The “marriage” of business and the National Socialist Party, despite Hitler’s contempt for aristocracy and business in general, ensured high profits for businesses. Firms seized in the name of “socialism” were delivered up to the same class they had been confiscated from (Thyssen handed over to Krupp, for instance). Arms Minister Speer despaired of his ability to control the fiefdoms and bailiwicks hundreds of war-profiteering private firms well into 1944, when the war was already going to pieces. Among his challenges: the privatization of all the formerly state-owned arsenals,13 in all. Public education, of course, had been one of the key features of all organized states since Roman times. And National Public Health in Germany was enacted 1871-83 — before Hitler was born — by the Bismarck government.

Hitler’s state enacted no new welfare programs and eliminated many, sending former “loafers” to the death camps. That ain’t welfare.
 The inclusion of the “s” word in the organization’s name was a clumsy but sometimes convenient leftover from a merger in the party’s past. Hitler even used it, short term, in tracts written by the Strasser brothers, to con working men into acquiescing to the movement’s aims. For their leftist-sounding pamphlets, the Strassers were later murdered. And anyone who suggested in Germany, once they took power, that Nazis were “progressive” or “leftist” would’ve been killed.

You hear a lot of bushwah about this, but every scholar clearly identifies the Nazis with the right wing, and no serious person does not identify them with the reactionary right wing. All the historians agree. No, Hitler and the Nazis were about as far from “socialists” as it is possible to be.

Full disclosure: I got much of the text above from an anonymous posting (by “Koolest Penguin in Town”) on Yahoo Answers (not exactly the world’s leading source, but this one was just what I was looking for).

(I rode a Fokker 50 turboprop between Perth and Ashburton Shire in Western Australia on a visit from my office to the site where we’re building, er, something.)

Now you’re drinking the paranoia juice. You need to step away from the bar.

But if you were over there you’d be happy to rely on them to protect your life.

 Chamberlain was naive about Hitler. There is no doubt about that. By the end of the war, it was Truman who was naive about Stalin. That is also proven.

However, in reference to Sun Tzu, all of enemies who could plot to rise again are dead, with but a few exceptions.
Those exceptions are:

The Castro brothers in Cuba, who are almost dead and Cuba is a small, weak nation, barely hanging on.

Kim Jong Un, the third in a dynastic line of dictators who have created a religion of their family as demigods. There is nothing that is actually communist about that “state.”

Vietnam, like China, is officially communist, but it is becoming more capitalist every day. Burma/Myanmar is a worse place to live because it is under a “right wing” military dictatorship but it is crumbling and almost gone.

In Venezuela, Hugo Chavez is near death, and his brand of socialism is as weak as he is. 

What is the real threat to the United States? It is not from an economic ideology, it is from a religious ideology. That, of course, is radical Islam.

What more could I expect from someone who doesn’t think President Obama is a Socialist?

What ever…

NO COMMENT

“America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves” Abraham Lincoln

Whether overtly or covertly, pro-active, or omission, Socialism has gained the most opportune avenue for America’s demise… The schools.

That you denial of the existence of revisionist history, redistributive and remedial justice, makes you suspect. Are you a covert, or overt agent desirous of the dismantling of America’s heritage and our birthright? Your rhetoric is exactly what I would expect from an enemy who is attempting allay or, assuage my concerns, my fears.

You deny the obvious, I wonder why?

Purveyor

TEST

For some reason Mediate will not accept my comment which includes a link to a man named Ludwig von Mises.

He is an economist that devoted much time to Socialist aspects of NAZI Germany.

I don’t want to say anymore as Big Brother lurks

OK, Big Brother accepted that.  Now, when you search for Ludwig,
there is a site listed from “conservapedia” which then offers a link to “Socialism.”

Between those two articles you should have an economic scholar’s input on our discussion.

Unfortunately, you declined to accept my offer of conciliation in my above post, suggesting that NAZI Socialism was indeed different than what we know today.  However, you declined, hence I no longer offer quarter.

I can only conclude that I am being censored for some reason?

Anyway, Google “conservapedia socialism”

The article of most interest is at the top of the page and discusses Ludwig.

I wonder what has caused so much trouble, that I am being censored?  Wait! Don’t answer that!

Too late – you’re already on the list…

I can’t imagine what Mediaite found so problematic with Ludwig von Mises?

Apparently, he researched and pretty much confirmed the “Socialist,” in “National Socialist”?

I suppose it is possible that I have become so antithetical to the web site…

I read the Conservapedia article. It’s mostly piffle. While it’s certainly true that the Nazi government was the small government advocate’s worst nightmare (not to mention millions of other people’s worst nightmare), it was not socialism as the term is understood by scholars and educated laypeople.

 It was in fact an oligarchical despotism centered around a single king-like figure and his subordinate nobles. It was more akin to feudalism than to socialism or any modern form of government.

For the sake of argument, I’ll acknowledge that you can draw a crude line around some of Hitler’s despotic actions and say “see, that’s what they’d do under socialism!” Just as you could around some of his actions and say “that’s what they do under a constitutional monarchy, and representive democracy, and in Mexico under Montezuma!”

But all of those comparison are pretty silly. Worse, as the comparison is used today by ignorant people on the right, “socialism” becomes “left-wing” becomes “liberal” becomes “those guys I resent a lot” and is a pernicious dumbing down of both history and political theory.

You sure it’s really them censoring and not just a glitch? All these sites are finicky from time to time…

I am confident that Ludwig von Mises, is the preeminent scholar on the subject, hence you are WRONG, I am right! “Piffle?” I offered some concession to your position, but since then my position has been confirmed. Check mate!

First problem with this whole article.  The Nazi SS flag was BLACK and WHITE. Three colors were used by the Nazi’s: Red, Black, and White. 

I tried repeated combinations, at least 5 times, which included links to Ludwig von Miser.

When I left those out, they cleared. I don’t know, my 1911 jammed today (stove pipe) but I was using Federal ammo. My 1911 never jams, maybe it was a harbinger?

I had a stove-piping issue with a 9 of mine that was caused because the lips of the mag were bent when I over-stuffed it once. After I collapsed them with a pair of pliers and a soft cloth it worked just ducky.

My only issue with Federal, other than it’s kinda dirty has been in 22LR. None of mine seem to like it…

I doubt it has anything to do with linkign. Have you tried eliminating the prefix of the link (the http://www part) and see if it’ll let you just post the primary part?

Also try no more than three links.

You got a lot of catching up to do…

Already caught up. Does not take long to get through the posts of 58 mainly liberals

For target practice, I have always used, exclusively, Winchester 230 grain hard ball. 3000 rounds plus w/o a hiccup. Today I switched to Federal on a whim I might try a lighter sprin, but your suggestion about the magazine is interesting!

The Colt 1911 is the most reliable pistol ever. God Bless John Moses Browning!

I always have Remington Gold Saber, hollow points with an 8 round Wilson magazine in the pistol when its next to the bed. No problem!

Did you know there is now 250 grain+P hollow points available for 1911′s? Yikes!

Thanks Benny

von Mises, widely known as a thoroughly inflexible thinker was both anti-Nazi and anti-Socialist (as am I, and you too, I presume) and also strongly opposed to the use of “left and right” to describe political positions.

Which is all fine and well, except that the terms “left and right” are quite useful and widely accepted by scholars and educated laypeople (although apparently not each and every scholar and each and every educated layperson) to describe the political spectrum.

That doesn’t make von Mises right nor does it make him the preeminent scholar on the subject of whether the Nazis were socialist. It actually makes him a member of the academic opposition with regard to this issue, and very much out of the mainstream.

So, two points: 1) I shouldn’t have used the term “unanimous” in my earlier post, and 2) even if you buy von Mises’ assertion, it has nothing to do with the term “socialist” hurled by modern rightwingers at Obama’s feet. The term has been devalued by misuse to mean “policies I don’t agree with by people I don’t like,” and is hence next to useless.

I have my Dad’s WWII pistol, 1943 issue – carried in Japan. I have had it for 25 years. Put about 1500-2000 rounds through it and it never has malfunctioned in any way…

Oh yeah, +P’s…

I haven’t used any yet… I figure my old pistol probably shouldn’t have any trouble, but I probably won’t use it.

My 50AE has all the kick I need…

You ought to look into the PMR30

PAT,

Waay back here, at the above Post, I conceded your point, expecting, hoping you would concede mine. We were both right, and both wrong… Actually, I suggest we are both correct. I did not want to push back so hard as that fact seemed obvious to me?

I truly thought this Post would demonstrate, “point taken” and then further show that whatever real form of legitimate German Government disappeared, certainly by 1939?
That you and I could not intellectually work this historic dilemma is disturbing as the truth is so obvious: National Socialism is “Socialism,” but, its “National Socialism,” a different species, so to speak?

In an era and location where propaganda was a driving vehicle, information/misinformation, der Deutsches Volk would not have countenanced Socialism/Communism. However, Hitler and company packaged it so it was palatable, calling such “National Socialism.”

Anyway, my above Post is where we should have ended this debate, or, STARTED to end it?

(note: as an intellectual exercise, was ‘nulli secundus’)

Purveyor

PMR30, there are a variety of quality .22 cal weapons available. I see them at the club

What  “symbols,” “logos,” etc, were deemed”‘verboten’ by law to use in America.” during President Obama’s first four years?  How has President Obama “dismantled” America?

Paranoid much?

Every time you make a comment pertaining to me you tend to make a foole of yourself, this is no exception.

First, I suggest you re-read my Post?  No, that would be a waste of time, I’ll just deal with you now.

Quote: “I’d rather not think about what “symbols,” “logos, etc., WILL BE verboten.” The key words are “will be,” not WERE! I believe that takes care of your first question.

As for your second question, I believe the words “change” and “dismantle,” could easily be construed as synonyms?
Obama has always claimed he intended to “change”  America. By “dismantling” portions thereof?

Touche’

If it comforts you to feel that way, go ahead.
Who am I to interfere with your paranoia? 

I successfully pointed out the paranoid ignorance in even asking what “symbols,” “logos, etc., WILL BE verboten.” in your delusional future, since President Obama has shown no inclination to come after whatever little symbols or logos ect… you hold dear, in his first four years.Your attempt to conflate the meaning between dismantle and change not withstanding you still haven’t answered how President Obama has “dismantled” America. Exactly what has he dismantled?You are a purveyor of a paranoid delusional fear based message of what President Obama MIGHT do, with the only limits being your imagination, and nothing to prove your lies of the President having dismantled America.Touche’

OK, next time I’ll just let you win the debate, so your fragile sensibilities remain intact.

MAYHEM,

Words have meaning and there are distinct connotations and denotations to my choice of words in this case:  The word “were” is past tense.  Whereas “will be” denotes or implies the future.  Hence, the first portion of your argument falls!  
                          
Unless, of course, you choose to lie and hope no one else notices.  Ergo, “you have successfully done” nothing! 
        
With that in mind and your credibility in tatters I decline further discourse at this time. 
              
Purveyor

MIKE,

I am a military historian.  I do not have formal credentials in that area, but, as an avocation and hobby I have been reading and studying such, since I was a kid.

In 1977, when I bought my first Kiss album, (Destroyer) I may have unconsciously noticed the SS at the end of the Kiss logo.  However, I was too busy to care as I was happily removing the cellophane so I could groove on the music!  I was 17 in 1977 and I had a nice collection of military regalia and gear, even an SS belt buckle, so I was aware of the similarities.  BUT, I and my folks didn’t get all twisted over that triviality.

Only now, in this era of heightened sensitivity to the inconsequential, do we focus in on things that are merely distractions from the real problems, facing our Nation.

Furthermore, have you noticed how overused the word “offended” is?

Anyway, my compliments, and down with politically correct.  Ouch!

Purveyor

Just like I thought, you don’t have an answer because you’re full of shit so you run away.  Come back for another spanking anytime.

“There was blood on the saddle, blood all around
And a great big puddle of blood on the ground

The Cowboy lay in it, all covered with gore
He’ll never ride tall in the saddle no more

Oh pity the cowboy, all bloody and dead
A bronco fell on him and mashed in his head”

I completely miss your point, what is it?

Red, white and black were/are the traditional German Imperial colors.  On a Luftwaffe or any Wehrmacht, helmet the tri-color shield was displayed on one side of the helmet, with corresponding Heer or Luftwaffe eagles, on the other.

SS helmets did not display the “tri-color” shield as they had SS runes on one side and Swastika shield on the other. (red, white and black)  MY point is that the SS was a very different animal than the branches of the German Army.  Most SS regalia was very different and distinct, hence the SS flag above is probably a replica of an actual “ceremonial” banner/flag used in SS meetings celebrations.  Heinrich Himmler was big on symbolism!  

Anyway, what’s your point?

Purveyor

Purveyor, I’ve found the books, and sent them to the respective birthday recipients, this has made me extremely popular with male branch of family to be sure, thank you. LOL

What color was the SS shield? It sure was not BABY FREAKING BLUE, the color used in the flag by these Marines.

This is Not a Nazi SS flag regardless of how you want to try and paint it. The SS did not use Baby Blue at all, they were all black and white, but thinks for providing your point hat means nothing. It does use the Old English Siȝel rune, that was also used by the Nazi’s.

Were you aware that an American Army Infantry Division used a Swastika for their shoulder patch prior to WWII? The 45 ID used a red Diamond with a yellow Swastika before 1930. Because of the use of a black Swastika used by Nazi Germany they changed to the Thunderbird, both of which have links to the large Native American population for Oklahoma where they are a National Guard unit (now the 45th Infantry Brigade).

 You do realize that both Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons both members of KISS are Jewish. 

He knows this well, Todd.

MR.SCHELLER,

I simply asked you a question?  To me, the flag, or tapestry is black, with white, or silver runes?  I see nothing “baby blue” anywhere?  Moreover, you did not mention baby blue in your original post, ergo, it did not make sense what you were asserting, or if such was pro/con?  I was mystified as you seemed to have, at least a modicum of military history, but, the comment did not make sense, thus, I asked you for clarification.

Are you a touchy Liberal that typically gets mad, instead of even?

As for your remark about my “reading,” ability, I believe the appropriate word, or perhaps phrase, should have been “reading comprehension,” which in my case, is more than adequate.  I will give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your “writing” skill in that, perhaps, I should have tempered my inquiry somewhat?

Anyway, as to the question: “Whats your point?”  Apparently, was the result in your perceiving a black piece of cloth as being “baby blue.”

I will reserve any further comment regarding the rest of your, interesting, post, if and until this basic conundrum is resolved and you demonstrate a degree of social graces.

Purveyor of Rhetoric

Yes, and no.

I found out Gene Simmons was born a Jew but did not actively participate in that religions ceremonies and/or holidays, until recently.

I did NOT know that Paul Stanley was/is, however, such makes sense as I believe they are long time friends and associates… Thank you for that piece of esoterica.

I pointed out in another lengthy discussion with EXPAT, etc., that some symbols will live on in infamy, while others will lose their gravitas, somewhat. Apparently the SS runes have entered the nether land, of obliquity? However, the swastika will always represent evil.

I further argued that the Marines, more than likely ,thought the “SS” was, in the vernacular, “cool.” As a result, the Marine’s used the “SS” out of ignorance and/or naivete? A simple discussion with their company Officer’s should resolve the problem. They do not need to hung from a yard arm!

I sincerely hope you agree with my commonsense approach to this mere faux pas that is more the result of a poor history education. The result, no doubt of Leftist, revisionist teachers spending more time extolling the virtues of Marx as opposed to the Founding Fathers and American exceptionalism.

Purveyor

Scheller,

When the M-16 rifle was introduced into the combat zones of South Vietnam, such quickly became referred to as “the black rifle.” A moniker or sobriquet that is retained to this day.

In fact, almost all issue American weapons are black. The exception is the personalization of equipment authorized to Spec-Ops and/or sniper teams. Those special units and men frequently camouflage their weapons.

Anyway, my point is, (by your observation) that most of the weapons being held by the Marines must be going into combat carrying “baby blue” weapons, as they appear to be the same color as the SS flag, Ouch!

Note: many firearms are “blued,” but not “baby blued.” Regardless, the Military M-16 and variants come from the factory, BLACK. Moreover, NAZI (SS) flags too come their respective factory, BLACK.

Originally, all I wanted was simple clarification as to your point, and look at this mess you’ve made?

Purveyor

have you every stood on the yellow foot prints  No till you do so SHUT

Semper Fi    Devil Dogs

Yeahhhh…  It was definitely a jackass move.  These guys are not old enough to remember WW2 as a significant event in world history.  To people of the WW2 generation the symbol represents pure hatred.  
I don’t mean to remotely minimize what the Nazis did.  Hitler was one evil SOB and the people who blindly followed him can not excuse what they participated in or chose not to see. To our latest generation of men barely old enough to serve but not consume alcohol it probably simply looks like a bad ass symbol that the bad guys used a long long time ago.   And probably a little of “We’re coming to get you” is intended there but I believe the people going high and right about this are not even capable of understanding the context in which the Marines here displayed the flag.  Kind of like military units who use the Jolly Roger flag.   If all the people who were all pissed off about this would get as emotionally charged about our politicians jacking the middle class while they line their pockets and the pockets of the people who bought them into office maybe we could get our nation back on track again.  Don’t go after the people defending it.  Go after the people hijacking it.  Keep your eye on the ball people.