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In An Entirely Reasonable Move, Oklahoma Bans Sharia Law

by Hillary Busis | 10:48 am, November 3rd, 2010

» 46 comments

We all know that the Muslims are plotting to conquer America’s heartland, one Denny’s at a time. Thankfully, they’ve been dealt a blow after last night’s election, when Oklahoma voters approved a ballot measure that will prevent judges from taking Islamic law into consideration while arbitrating a case.

Politico’s Andy Barr has the story:

The proposition’s sponsor, Republican Rex Duncan, told reporters Tuesday that the proposition is a “preemptive strike” against judges who he worries could be “legislating from the bench or using international law or Sharia law.”

Opponents of the measure pointed out that the First Amendment bars Congress from make any law respecting the establishment of religion.

The proposition also faced criticism from Muslim leaders who have said they intend to challenge it in court.

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich is one of the top voices spreading concern that Islamic law may creep into American courts, although he has not provided proof that such fears are justified.

Wait a minute—you’re saying fears that radical “Islamists” are trying to force American judges to abide by their religious principles are entirely unfounded? Hm… that doesn’t sound right to us. At least Oklahoma is fighting the good fight!

Read more at Politico.

2010 midterm elections, Midterm Elections, Midterms 2010, newt gingrich, Oklahoma, Sharia Law

Big Eddie

The Farmer and the Suicide Bomber Should Be Friends . But they aren’t . Oklahoma is not wrong to get ahead on this . They’re coming . Everythings up to date in Oklahoma City .
chatmandu002

Islam, the most dangerous thing on earth.
http://www.uselessbeauty.com Vidiot

I’m certainly glad that this law was passed. Because without it, sharia would have definitely taken over in Oklahoma.

Never mind that Oklahoma’s experience with terrorism was instigated by Timothy McVeigh and not Mohammed Atta.
TristramShandy

Dear Hillary Busis, how wonderful it would be if even a smug Mediaite columnist like yourself could sit down and watch Oklahoma! (Try the PBS DVD starring Hugh Jackman.) It’s a wonderful show about America and American values with many songs that have become imbedded into the American soul. Those of us outside your tiny sphere of little or importance actually see what Oklahoma was trying to do.
Mr.Papshmer

Hilary Busis: “We all know that the Muslims are plotting to conquer America’s heartland, one Denny’s at a time.”

Let me tell you babe, you’ve got nothing on middle America. I’d much rather be here than there, and your smug condescension only serves to illustrate the elitist attitude of the leftist media who think that for some reason j-school made them smarter than the rest of us. J-school’s a joke, sweetheart, deal with it.
Rousseau

I assume then that since the Ten Commandments and much of old Testament Law are part of Sharia Law, these too are banned from consideration?
tatboy

If Sharia Law violates the First Amendment, why are Muslim leaders vowing to challange this ballot measure ???
m

chatmandu002 said:
Islam, the most dangerous thing on earth.

Religion is the most dangerous thing on earth
http://www.facebook.com/people/Noa-Napoleon/100000196522640 Noa Napoleon

I predict that as this debate heats up in Oklahoma, all the States will be forced to adopt similar measures. Lawmakers caught in the cross fire will be forced to craft legislation that re-affirms America is a Christian nation. Liberal Americans don’t know this yet but this sort of open challenge on Christianity especially coming from “Islamic extremists,” will be their demise as well because it will force liberal politicians, now the minority in Washington, to make a open stand for or against Islam. Liberals hate Christianity so much their mask’s will finally come completely off! The morality of Islam will be pitted against the morality of Christianity where liberals will finally openly side with Islam!! At which point everyone perceived to be working with Islamic extremists against Christianity, will be found out, exposed, and finally dispensed with! The courts will prosecute anyone found to be actively persecuting Christians or propagating anti-Christian material. As I see it this push for Sharia law will set up a showdown where at last these debates are put to rest. For conservatives this will be the equivalent of killing two birds with one stone! Get ready for more David and Goliath style face offs, where the uncircumcised giants, who dare to Challenge the Lords people, are defeated with one carefully aimed stone! Right now the Davids of the land are making their way to the battle front with their blessed slings! Liberals be very afraid!

Thank you Oklahoma!!!
CosmosDan

I’m a little unsure why such a law is even necessary. You’d think any judge would know that we govern by US law both federal and state and no other. The actions of Muslim Americans are judged according to those laws just as the actions of Christians or any other persons.
alamo2

chatmandu002 said:
Islam, the most dangerous thing on earth.

Actually, bigotry is extremely dangerous. Bigots are extremely dangerous, no matter what side they are on. People who hate Christianity are bigots. People who hate non-Christians are bigots. Bigotry is usually born out of ignorance and fear.
alamo2

Mr.Papshmer said:
Hilary Busis: “We all know that the Muslims are plotting to conquer America’s heartland, one Denny’s at a time.” Let me tell you babe, you’ve got nothing on middle America. I’d much rather be here than there, and your smug condescension only serves to illustrate the elitist attitude of the leftist media who think that for some reason j-school made them smarter than the rest of us. J-school’s a joke, sweetheart, deal with it.

What are you talking about? As Mark Twain said… Oh never mind, you wouldn’t understand him anyway.
alamo2

Noa Napoleon said:
I predict that as this debate heats up in Oklahoma, all the States will be forced to adopt similar measures. Lawmakers caught in the cross fire will be forced to craft legislation that re-affirms America is a Christian nation. Liberal Americans don’t know this yet but this sort of open challenge on Christianity especially coming from “Islamic extremists,” will be their demise as well because it will force liberal politicians, now the minority in Washington, to make a open stand for or against Islam. Liberals hate Christianity so much their mask’s will finally come completely off! The morality of Islam will be pitted against the morality of Christianity where liberals will finally openly side with Islam!! At which point everyone perceived to be working with Islamic extremists against Christianity, will be found out, exposed, and finally dispensed with! The courts will prosecute anyone found to be actively persecuting Christians or propagating anti-Christian material. As I see it this push for Sharia law will set up a showdown where at last these debates are put to rest. For conservatives this will be the equivalent of killing two birds with one stone! Get ready for more David and Goliath style face offs, where the uncircumcised giants, who dare to Challenge the Lords people, are defeated with one carefully aimed stone! Right now the Davids of the land are making their way to the battle front with their blessed slings! Liberals be very afraid! Thank you Oklahoma!!!

I am a devout Christian, and I certainly don’t hate Christianity. Again, ignorance is really dangerous. If you think this is what Jesus Christ preached, then your brand of Christianity is not good.
alamo2

alamo2 said:
Actually, bigotry is extremely dangerous. Bigots are extremely dangerous, no matter what side they are on. People who hate Christianity are bigots. People who hate non-Christians are bigots. Bigotry is usually born out of ignorance and fear.

Well, I got one thumbs down so far. So someone who is reading this loves bigots. Congrats. Your fear and ignorance have saved you….
CosmosDan

Noa Napoleon said:
I predict that as this debate heats up in Oklahoma, all the States will be forced to adopt similar measures. Lawmakers caught in the cross fire will be forced to craft legislation that re-affirms America is a Christian nation.

I sure hope not since this is not true. We were not established as a Christian nation even though the population was predominantly Christian. We were established as a free nation including, freedom to worship. Now, we are more diverse than ever.

Noa Napoleon said:
Liberal Americans don’t know this yet but this sort of open challenge on Christianity especially coming from “Islamic extremists,” will be their demise as well because it will force liberal politicians, now the minority in Washington, to make a open stand for or against Islam. Liberals hate Christianity so much their mask’s will finally come completely off! The morality of Islam will be pitted against the morality of Christianity where liberals will finally openly side with Islam!! At which point everyone perceived to be working with Islamic extremists against Christianity, will be found out, exposed, and finally dispensed with!

You must be joking. There is no effort to take over with Shariah law, and there are lots and lots of liberals who are Christians. Any Muslims foolish enough to insist on replacing US law with Shariah law will be shit down very quickly by liberals and conservatives alike. There’s no need to take sides for or against Christianity
, since we’ve already taken the side of religious freedom for all citizens.
tatboy

CosmosDan said:
I’m a little unsure why such a law is even necessary. You’d think any judge would know that we govern by US law both federal and state and no other. The actions of Muslim Americans are judged according to those laws just as the actions of Christians or any other persons.

If i’m wrong please correct me. But wasn’t there a Supream Court decision last year that one of the justices cited INTERNATIONAL LAW for their ruling? Just asking.
CosmosDan

tatboy said:
If i’m wrong please correct me. But wasn’t there a Supream Court decision last year that one of the justices cited INTERNATIONAL LAW for their ruling? Just asking.

I wasn’t aware of that but I guess you’re referring to this

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=155617

which seems to indicate the Justice was using the 8th amendment as a basis and used an international treaty that we hadn’t signed only as an example of a principle already covered by our Constitution.

So the objection is, don’t even mention anything other than the Constitution and American Jurist Prudence in decisions? I would expect any decision to be grounded in American law.
tatboy

Thanks for the reference… wan’t even sure I was right (or in this case close). I just remembered a furor about a year ago about a justice sighting international law in a decision. Thanks for the heads up.
Some_Dude

m said:
Religion is the most dangerous thing on earth

Engage.
CosmosDan

tatboy said:
Thanks for the reference… wan’t even sure I was right (or in this case close). I just remembered a furor about a year ago about a justice sighting international law in a decision. Thanks for the heads up.

My pleasure. I learned something as well.
Jayson

alamo2 said:
I am a devout Christian, and I certainly don’t hate Christianity. Again, ignorance is really dangerous. If you think this is what Jesus Christ preached, then your brand of Christianity is not good.

Jesus Christ preached nothing. He did not exist. Christianity, The bible, all fantasy, a mere fairy tale that poor saps like you believe, because you’ve had the myth drummed in your head from the second you were born.. Once people like you wake up and realize, its the people like you, that have created so much hatred in the world, because of your “religion”. The world will be a much better place.
CosmosDan

Jayson said:
Gossip Cop

Jayson said:
Jesus Christ preached nothing. He did not exist. Christianity, The bible, all fantasy, a mere fairy tale that poor saps like you believe, because you’ve had the myth drummed in your head from the second you were born.. Once people like you wake up and realize, its the people like you, that have created so much hatred in the world, because of your “religion”. The world will be a much better place.

Speaking of hatred, there are some good 12 step programs I’d like to recommend to you.
Jayson

CosmosDan said:
Speaking of hatred, there are some good 12 step programs I’d like to recommend to you.

No 12 step programs needed here. I don’t have hate toward anyone. I may dislike some people for how they act, or how they think of others that might look *gasp* different, but I would not hate them. Its the Christians and all other religions that create so much hatred in this world. That was my point earlier, that people believe a myth thats never been proven to be factual, so much, they’ll fight one another to the death over it.
Hatred abounds in all religions and always will. Look around you my friend, you can see the hatred happening every second of every day.
The day religion of any kind is abolished, will be the day the world will finally live in peace.
Lei

Cosmos Dan said: I sure hope not since this is not true. We were not established as a Christian nation even though the population was predominantly Christian. We were established as a free nation including, freedom to worship. Now, we are more diverse than ever.

Do you know that Christian isn’t a religion? Christian nation simply means that the founders followed Jesus Christ and set up the country under his laws. This is why we have a free nation. No matter how diverse America becomes whether they follow buddha, islam, etc., etc., Christ gave America their freedom and this is why I believe America is referred to as a Christian nation.
RichardBraincase

I think considering there is a growing concern over judges using international law as a consideration for their rulings I’m not surprised at all they passed this.

To say there is no basis is not true as seen in New Jersey:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5670250/new_jersey_family_judge_accepts_sharia.html?cat=17

It’s pathetic that you have to spell out to judges that they are to enforce US laws, on those of a foreign government or any particular religion.
RichardBraincase

RichardBraincase said:
It’s pathetic that you have to spell out to judges that they are to enforce US laws, on those of a foreign government or any particular religion.

Should read … “NOT those of a foreign government or any particular religion.”
skyfet

This is absolutely fantastic news, even if people practice the sharia law in their personal life the police state has ban it. Tell me how the police state would ban shariah when the people practice it such as, being honest in business dealings, dressing modestly, praying 5 times a day etc.. I’m fascinated on how this wonderful law would be policed by the state.
CosmosDan

Jayson said:
The day religion of any kind is abolished, will be the day the world will finally live in peace.

Well, you’re correct that we don’t know with any certainty that Jesus actually existed , but what I find ironic about statements like the one above is that it is just as much a faith based opinion as any religious dogma. It’s really an emotional belief based on personal bias rather than hard data.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Just about all humans do it.
CosmosDan

Lei said:
Do you know that Christian isn’t a religion? Christian nation simply means that the founders followed Jesus Christ and set up the country under his laws. This is why we have a free nation. No matter how diverse America becomes whether they follow buddha, islam, etc., etc., Christ gave America their freedom and this is why I believe America is referred to as a Christian nation.

Sorry, this is simply not historically true. The founders were indeed mainly Christian but many were deist and they were heavily influenced the the Enlightenment philosophical in the writing of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.

As much as I appreciate the teachings of Jesus as presented in the New Testament, it’s simply not true that America was given it’s freedom by Jesus or that we are a Christian nation. {other than by numbers} We were established as a free secular nation in the Constitution, with all citizens having the freedom to worship. {or not}
crclarkNY

There is not much on the books about precedence of international law over state laws – so this is a way for the state to ensure state law is imposed on state judicial decisions – like in divorce or family court – rather than laws of other countries or customary international law. Since there’s a big debate over how international law is handled in the US courts, this isn’t as crazy an idea as you make it out to be.
CosmosDan

RichardBraincase said:
I think considering there is a growing concern over judges using international law as a consideration for their rulings I’m not surprised at all they passed this.

To say there is no basis is not true as seen in New Jersey:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5670250/new_jersey_family_judge_accepts_sharia.html?cat=17

It’s pathetic that you have to spell out to judges that they are to enforce US laws, on those of a foreign government or any particular religion.

In the article it is the author that concludes the judge’s decision was based on Sharia law. We don’t get a quote from the judge involving Sharia law. Spousal rape can be difficult cases.
Thelonious Funk

Finally, Oklahoma is partially safe. Now if they get that tsunami warning system in place, nothing can stop them.
felixw

No Sharia law in Oklahoma, but you can get Happy Meals. If you want it the other way around, move to San Francisco.
alamo2

Jayson said:
Jesus Christ preached nothing. He did not exist. Christianity, The bible, all fantasy, a mere fairy tale that poor saps like you believe, because you’ve had the myth drummed in your head from the second you were born.. Once people like you wake up and realize, its the people like you, that have created so much hatred in the world, because of your “religion”. The world will be a much better place.

Your message is very snide. How do you know the Bible is all fantasy? How do you know Christ did not exist. Most atheistic scholars acknowledge the existence of Jesus, even if they do not believe in his divinity. True, organized religion has caused much terror in the world. But your rude comment without any intellectual backing does nothing to further your beliefs.
alamo2

Jayson said:
No 12 step programs needed here. I don’t have hate toward anyone. I may dislike some people for how they act, or how they think of others that might look *gasp* different, but I would not hate them. Its the Christians and all other religions that create so much hatred in this world. That was my point earlier, that people believe a myth thats never been proven to be factual, so much, they’ll fight one another to the death over it.Hatred abounds in all religions and always will. Look around you my friend, you can see the hatred happening every second of every day.The day religion of any kind is abolished, will be the day the world will finally live in peace.

So you are saying that all selfishness, all greed, is based on religion? My oh my, you are not as learned as you would like us to believe, are you.
Lei

Cosmos Dan said: Sorry, this is simply not historically true. The founders were indeed mainly Christian but many were deist and they were heavily influenced the the Enlightenment philosophical in the writing of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.

As much as I appreciate the teachings of Jesus as presented in the New Testament, it’s simply not true that America was given it’s freedom by Jesus or that we are a Christian nation. {other than by numbers} We were established as a free secular nation in the Constitution, with all citizens having the freedom to worship. {or not}

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments. I understand what you’re saying but you yourself agree that the founders were mainly Christian. Does deist mean that their Christian Judeo principles wouldn’t have had any influence in how they made their decisions? I’m not talking about the Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights. I’m talking about a people, a nation who were mainly Christian.

I’m glad that you appreciate the teachings of Jesus but do you believe? For instance in Jhn 15:5 Jesus says – I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. It depends on what side of the platform you’re on. You’re either going to defend a secular nation or a Christian nation. Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

I’d like to share this website with you. Part 1 The Roots of American Liberty The Heritage Foundation. Thanks again.
Some_Dude

This was a pointless exercise. There will never be church in state, and no state need fear becoming a theocracy.
CosmosDan

Lei said:
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments. I understand what you’re saying but you yourself agree that the founders were mainly Christian. Does deist mean that their Christian Judeo principles wouldn’t have had any influence in how they made their decisions? I’m not talking about the Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights. I’m talking about a people, a nation who were mainly Christian.

Deist, means that they believe God is not involved in the lives of mankind. The thing is there are no principles that are uniquely Judeo Christian. In mans search for meaning and the great mystery of why we are here and how we got here the principles included in Judeo Christian tradition have come up before and been taught before by other religions and philosophies. I believe in the value of those principles, but not that any religion or philosophy owns them.

Lei said:
I’m glad that you appreciate the teachings of Jesus but do you believe? For instance in Jhn 15:5 Jesus says – I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. It depends on what side of the platform you’re on. You’re either going to defend a secular nation or a Christian nation. Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

The fact is, even Christians don’t agree on the details of what it means to serve the Lord. How are non Christians to judge which branch , which dogma, or expression of Christianity is correct? Or, as I asked my Christian sister, which person should I go to to tell me which path is the correct one? Am I to give the destiny of my soul over to the advice of any person, or group of people?
I believe that the truth can indeed set us free, and that we are to value and seek love and truth above all else. I believe the true measure of how we are doing in seeking those things is reflected in our actions and how we interact with and treat our fellow man. I happen to believe that’s what Jesus taught and is reflected in the New Testament but mankind, as we are wont to do, has changed and sometimes perverted those teachings adding traditions and beliefs that are just the traditions of men that Jesus warned us against

Lei said:
I’d like to share this website with you. Part 1 The Roots of American Liberty The Heritage Foundation. Thanks again.

I’m familiar with some of the theories and beliefs about the judeo Christian traditions but I’m listening to the video from the link now.
IMO, it’s quite significant that although Christianity was the most common religion at the time , the Constitution , which is the basis of our government and laws, contains no religion. We can talk about history and quote the founding fathers , both supporting and denying the significance of our religious heritage, but the fact is the founding fathers understood that our society would have to be able to change and adapt to an ever changing world, and built in the tools for future generations to react to those changes. It starts off with

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America

Regardless of how the founding fathers felt or worshiped it is we the people of this generation that must strive to work together to create a more perfect union. In a society that is changing, and will continue to change, a society that is more diverse than ever, we must adapt the the non religious principles contained in our Constitution to our society as it exists today.
If your principles are based in your religious beliefs that’s fine, and protected by our Constitution. So are all other religious beliefs or the belief systems of the non religious. When we come together as citizens our beliefs are equal, our voices equal. IMO, we need to have those conversations based around those principles held in common by different religions and the non religious as well.
fenngibbon

I’m glad to see someone else mentioned the New Jersey case, because I suspect that was a motivation for this law. Here’s the money quote from the idiot judge in that case:

“This court does not feel that, under the circumstances, that this defendant had a criminal desire to or intent to sexually assault or to sexually contact the plaintiff when he did. The court believes that he was operating under his belief that it is, as the husband, his desire to have sex when and whether he wanted to, was something that was consistent with his practices and it was something that was not prohibited.”

I see no problem in requiring judges to fulfill their oaths to be faithful to the laws of the United States, not Sharia.
CLTstraightguy

“We all know that the Muslims are plotting to conquer America’s heartland, one Denny’s at a time.”

This Journalist is officially an IDIOT to make light of this…
Perhaps if someone in your family is taken from you in the name some Islamowacko’s Allah Ackbar scream than you will understand the magnitude of this threat to Freedom, and Democracy.
pakattak

Rousseau said:
I assume then that since the Ten Commandments and much of old Testament Law are part of Sharia Law, these too are banned from consideration?

This is indeed true; Oklahoma has effectively banned the use of the Ten Commandments.
Lei

Cosmos Dan said: Regardless of how the founding fathers felt or worshiped it is we the people of this generation that must strive to work together to create a more perfect union. In a society that is changing, and will continue to change, a society that is more diverse than ever, we must adapt the the non religious principles contained in our Constitution to our society as it exists today.
If your principles are based in your religious beliefs that’s fine, and protected by our Constitution. So are all other religious beliefs or the belief systems of the non religious. When we come together as citizens our beliefs are equal, our voices equal. IMO, we need to have those conversations based around those principles held in common by different religions and the non religious as well.

First of all, I would like to thank you for taking the time to listen to the link. That being said it hit me while reading your response that the difference between us is that you put your faith in man and I put my faith in Jesus Christ. Your belief is founded in the Constitution and its non religious principles and my belief is founded in the Bible and God’s word. You believe that this generation can create a more perfect union. I believe that this is an impossibility without the Lord’s help. You say that my religious beliefs are protected by our Constitution and that when we come together as citizens our beliefs and voices are equal. Well, it didn’t seem like our beliefs and voices were equal when Congress passed Obama’s healthcare. It doesn’t seem like our beliefs and voices are equal when you watch the treatment that the tea partiers are experiencing. I think that what you believe is all a nice dream. Everyday my rights are being circumvented/and or subverted. When you can’t even say Merry Christmas because Christmas denotes Christ but you can build foot baths using tax payer monies and allow prayer in school to accomodate Muslims then I believe that we need more God not less. I can see that we’re on extremely opposite spectrums, but if I can make one last suggestion to your question, which person should I go to to tell me which path is the correct one? Go to the Lord in prayer and ask him.

Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD .
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

What will we say when we are finally called upon to give an answer for what we believed?
Lei

God bless and keep you safe Cosmos Dan. Nice talking to you.
CosmosDan

Lei said:
First of all, I would like to thank you for taking the time to listen to the link. That being said it hit me while reading your response that the difference between us is that you put your faith in man and I put my faith in Jesus Christ. Your belief is founded in the Constitution and its non religious principles and my belief is founded in the Bible and God’s word.

I try to put my faith in reality , my mind and heart , have observed, while still remaining open and aware of the things I don’t know. {and there’s plenty} I came to believe some time ago that whatever God may be he must be the God of all mankind, and different religions are mankind’s imperfect expression of trying to understand that mystery. That’s why for me, a commitment to seek love and truth within and reflect that to the world around me is the path I’ve chosen, and in perfect keeping with the teachings of Jesus IMO. I’m sure you’re sincere about having faith in Jesus but realistically , lot’s of people say that and it means a lot of different things to lots of people. Christians do not agree, and as Jesus says, the words alone are not enough. Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist have faith in Jesus but most Christians would not support their actions. The Bible doesn’t have more weight than the Constitution simply because you believe it’s God’s word. The truth is there’s nothing other than man’s tradition declaring the Bible to be God’s word. There aren’t even any passages in the Bible indicating it was God’s plan we have one final collection of writings. Studying the history of the Bible it seems clear they were selected by men. Consider also that even those who see the Bible as God’s word can’t seem to agree on it’s meaning and other religions believe just as strongly in their own unique scripture that most Christians would reject. Religion is filled with the traditions of man and of course each religion teaches theirs is correct and it is the others who are misguided. My conclusion is that all religions are in error and imperfect and expressions of our search for the truth.
I don’t mean this as disrespect to your beliefs because each of us must travel our own chosen path and seek the truth in our own way, but I submit that your reference to God over man is part of the problem. People have opinion of what is right and what is wrong and what direction we as a people and nation should go in but when you claim that your particular opinion is backed by God based on what some preacher said, or one of many interpretations of the Bible how are we to move forward together? People believe what they do and that’s fine, but as citizens we must accept that we have one voice and one vote, and your belief in God is no better or worse than anyone else , and it amounts to one person’s feelings and opinion. We can discuss the principles of brotherhood, justice for all, equality, honor, liberty, our responsibility to each other and other nations
CosmosDan

Not sure what I clicked but it posted too soon.

We can discuss those principles in a language all people can participate in regardless of the framework for their belief system, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Agnostic, whatever. because that is who we share our nation with.

Lei said:
You believe that this generation can create a more perfect union.

Yes, a more perfect, as in progress, but not perfect. I believe personal growth and our growth as a nation is an ongoing never ending process. Those of us who are here now do what we can, and pass the work on to the next generation. If you look at the history of Christianity you’ll see the same thing. Through the dark ages, to the rise in protestantism , through a time when Christianity accepted slavery and the subjugation of women to now. I think God must see the true heart of every person regardless of labels and lip service. We see so called Christian politicians who give lip service to God, but don’t mind lying to advance their careers. We need good people who truly try and serve the principles we often give lip service to.

Lei said:
You say that my religious beliefs are protected by our Constitution and that when we come together as citizens our beliefs and voices are equal. Well, it didn’t seem like our beliefs and voices were equal when Congress passed Obama’s healthcare.

What I mean is that we are all able to worship as we choose providing we don’t harm others, and as citizens, we have equal voices but nobody gets to speak for “what God wants” even if you feel strongly about it. Yes, everyone had an equal voice when the health care bill was passed. They expressed that voice in the 2008 and 2010 elections. We don’t get to vote on every piece of proposed legislation , that’s not how our government works.

Lei said:
It doesn’t seem like our beliefs and voices are equal when you watch the treatment that the tea partiers are experiencing. I think that what you believe is all a nice dream.

I believe it’s the path we’ve been put on but I sure don’t expect perfection anymore than I expect perfection from Christians or anyone else. I happen to support any American’s right to voice dissent and to assemble to do so, since those are protected liberties in our constitution. We’re far from perfect and resort to insults and emotional reactions too often but I don’t think the Tea Party has been treated any worse than others have.

Lei said:
When you can’t even say Merry Christmas because Christmas denotes Christ but you can build foot baths using tax payer monies and allow prayer in school to accomodate Muslims then I believe that we need more God not less. I can see that we’re on extremely opposite spectrums, but if I can make one last suggestion to your question, which person should I go to to tell me which path is the correct one? Go to the Lord in prayer and ask him.

You can say Merry Christmas and praise Jesus as much as you like. I’m in my mid 50s and I understand that things are different and seem more complicated than they were years ago but that’s the nature of the world and country we live in. Things are changing and traditions change. I’m not sure what you mean by foot baths or school prayer to accommodate Muslims. IMO nobody can or should prevent a believer from praying in school on an individual level. What shouldn’t happen is prayer being led by an authority figure like a teacher. People have different views about what is correct and we have to deal with those conflicts as they arise. I remember a story about a math teacher being fired for testifying to students repeatedly after being warned several times. I support that. OTOH, I remember a teacher being told not to wear religious symbols on her clothes and I think that’s completely out of line.

Thank you for a polite and honest exchange of ideas. It’s sincerely appreciated. I decided some time ago that my beliefs had to be based on the truth as I perceive it now, knowing that as I grow those perceptions will change. Whatever God may be, I’m okay with being sincere and valuing love and truth over religious tradition.
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Everyone with brains should understand there are two powers in the universe, Supernatural and Natural.
Heaven is the Supernatural which all religions pledge allegiance from their soul to their spiritual heavenly Leaders. This is all in their heads until they die, then their new live begins in the Heavens. Until this time comes to pass, all of us are faced with our bodies’ including our brains’ paying allegiance to earthly laws of Nature and Laws of Man harmoniously arranged to give all of us life, liberty, peace and prosperity and freedom to swing our fist as much as we please and that freedom stops where our neighbors’ nose begins. Beyond this punishment is waiting for those who offend these earthly laws. We all must remember My Supernatural Life is between Me and My God and so is Yours. My Natural Life is between me and My Government and so is yours. People of all Nationalities keep getting these two mixed up. No one will find peace until they understands the difference between the two. Earthly Government should already understand this, if they don’t they need to play catch-up and study their Constitutions. All of these reasons are why we agreed keep Religion and Government completely separate from one another. With so many people being born everyday this message must be circulated continually. We can’t continue to believe everyone already knows or should know this very important message about the relationship between Our Government and All Religions.