The Mosque will never be built in that location. Stewart loses, I win. America wins. The people win.

gordonbloyershow said:
The Mosque will never be built in that location. Stewart loses, I win. America wins. The people win.

Next you will have to go after that Pentagon mosque, gordon.

gordonbloyershow said:
The Mosque will never be built in that location. Stewart loses, I win. America wins. The people win.

gordonbloyershow said:
The Mosque will never be built in that location. Stewart loses, I win. America wins. The people win.

We lost a long, long time ago. The “war on terror” was over barely after it started.

gordonbloyershow said:
The Mosque will never be built in that location. Stewart loses, I win. America wins. The people win.

I guess I just can’t understand how surrendering our fundamental principles is winning, but I haven’t seen any courage in a Republican since Eisenhower left Washington and moved to Gettysburg.

AT FOX “REPORTING” THE “NEWS”
IS NOUNDERTAKING,
JUST RECITE A FEW LIES,
IT’S ALL SIMPLY FAKING.

This is a very good presentation by Stewart. It illustrates, in the clearst possible terms how the FOX folks completely changed course on a story, without any change in the underlying facts of the story. When the Republicans thought thy had found traction on a lie, FOX immediately strated perpetuating, promoting and propagating the lie. Well, just another day at FOX.

AT FOX “REPORTING” THE “NEWS”
IS NOUNDERTAKING,
JUST RECITE A FEW LIES,
IT’S ALL SIMPLY FAKING.

I’m surprised more wasn’t said in this article about the use of Heston’s speech to drive home the greater point. That seemed, to me at least, to be the most important part of the segment.

gordonbloyershow said:
I win.

This attitude in our politics is poisoning our nation and sabotaging our republic. It isn’t a competition. And as a New Yorker who has to see the WTC ruins every day, I take serious offense that you’re trying to interject yourself in such a way.

Stephen Hogan said:
I’m surprised more wasn’t said in this article about the use of Heston’s speech to drive home the greater point. That seemed, to me at least, to be the most important part of the segment.

This attitude in our politics is poisoning our nation and sabotaging our republic. It isn’t a competition. And as a New Yorker who has to see the WTC ruins every day, I take serious offense that you’re trying to interject yourself in such a way.

Bravo.

King, if Fox upsets you that badly, why don’t you stop watching?

Stephen Hogan said:
I’m surprised more wasn’t said in this article about the use of Heston’s speech to drive home the greater point. That seemed, to me at least, to be the most important part of the segment.

This attitude in our politics is poisoning our nation and sabotaging our republic. It isn’t a competition. And as a New Yorker who has to see the WTC ruins every day, I take serious offense that you’re trying to interject yourself in such a way.

I couldn’t agree with you more.

After listening to a critique of the nearly nine hundred billion dollars stimulus package from Republican Congressional leaders, along with some helpful suggestions on how to fix it,
President Barack Obama had a two word answer.

“I won,” President Obama said, indicating why the Republicans were not going to have any significant input into the bill.

Above should be in “quotes”.

“After listening to a critique of the nearly nine hundred billion dollars stimulus package from Republican Congressional leaders, along with some helpful suggestions on how to fix it,
President Barack Obama had a two word answer.

“I won,” President Obama said, indicating why the Republicans were not going to have any significant input into the bill.”

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1416138/barack_obama_to_republicans_i_won.html

Mr B said:
Above should be in “quotes”. “After listening to a critique of the nearly nine hundred billion dollars stimulus package from Republican Congressional leaders, along with some helpful suggestions on how to fix it,President Barack Obama had a two word answer. “I won,” President Obama said, indicating why the Republicans were not going to have any significant input into the bill.” http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1416138/barack_obama_to_republicans_i_won.html

Yes, he won. The people spoke.

Once again Stewart nails it.

Stephen Hogan said:
I’m surprised more wasn’t said in this article about the use of Heston’s speech to drive home the greater point. That seemed, to me at least, to be the most important part of the segment. This attitude in our politics is poisoning our nation and sabotaging our republic. It isn’t a competition. And as a New Yorker who has to see the WTC ruins every day, I take serious offense that you’re trying to interject yourself in such a way.

That’s a very good point. Stewart did that tastefully and effectivly.

AT FOX “REPORTING” THE “NEWS”
IS NO UNDERTAKING,
JUST RECITE A FEW LIES,
IT’S ALL SIMPLY FAKING.

More and more, people are letting their emotions and gut reactions get in the way of facts and logic, and this is terrible for our government, our populace, and the national discourse in general. Jon points this out perfectly, as usual, by pointing out how he was capable of being just as guilty of this as any of today’s hysterical anti-mosque protestors.

Steve says:

It has been a week of Islam community center near Ground Zero (ok, or ‘Ground Zero Mosque’)

HAHA, looks like steve got he AP memo to stop calling it the groud zero mosque also!

MichelleF said:
Steve says: It has been a week of Islam community center near Ground Zero (ok, or ‘Ground Zero Mosque’) HAHA, looks like steve got he AP memo to stop calling it the groud zero mosque also!

Or, when he listened to the news, the real news, not Beckerhead’s Bloviating BS, he came to understand, as many of us have, that the mosques portion of the development is about as big a part of the development as the mosque in the Pentagon is of the the Pentagon. It’s much more like a YMCA.

AT FOX “REPORTING” THE “NEWS”
IS NO UNDERTAKING,
JUST RECITE A FEW LIES,
IT’S ALL SIMPLY FAKING.

A better analogy would be:

Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck makes the following statement:

“One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.”

And when asked to condemn Timothy McVeigh or the KKK as terrorists, they refuse.

I’m sure the left would ridicule anyone connecting the crazy dots.

valkyrie101 said:
Next you will have to go after that Pentagon mosque, gordon.

Can we stop with this ridiculous contention that there is a mosque in the Pentagon? There is not, and if that is your justification for favoring the construction of the NY mosque then your argument is empty.

No, Royal Race- Baiter/Religious Bigot, I’m pretty sure he saw the memo:

Here is some guidance on covering the NYC mosque story, with assists from Chad Roedemeier in the NYC bureau and Terry Hunt in Washington:
1. We should continue to avoid the phrase “ground zero mosque” or “mosque at ground zero” on all platforms. (We’ve very rarely used this wording, except in slugs, though we sometimes see other news sources using the term.) The site of the proposed Islamic center and mosque is not at ground zero, but two blocks away in a busy commercial area. We should continue to say it’s “near” ground zero, or two blocks away…
In short headlines, some ways to refer to the project include:
_ mosque 2 blocks from WTC site
_ Muslim (or Islamic) center near WTC site
_ mosque near ground zero
_ mosque near WTC site

Just further proof of what the journOlist proved, that the libseral media ALL follow the EXACT same template. But I like you Steve, compared to your cohorts, you are a breath of fresh air! Sorry if my compliment hurts your street cred!

“It’s much more like a YMCA.”

What a coincidence. When Greg Gutfeld opens his gay bar next to the mosque, he plans on inviting the Village People. I’m sure the crowd will insist on hearing YMCA.

MichelleF said:
No, Royal Race- Baiter/Religious Bigot, I’m pretty sure he saw the memo:

Here is some guidance on covering the NYC mosque story, with assists from Chad Roedemeier in the NYC bureau and Terry Hunt in Washington:
1. We should continue to avoid the phrase “ground zero mosque” or “mosque at ground zero” on all platforms. (We’ve very rarely used this wording, except in slugs, though we sometimes see other news sources using the term.) The site of the proposed Islamic center and mosque is not at ground zero, but two blocks away in a busy commercial area. We should continue to say it’s “near” ground zero, or two blocks away…
In short headlines, some ways to refer to the project include:
_ mosque 2 blocks from WTC site
_ Muslim (or Islamic) center near WTC site
_ mosque near ground zero
_ mosque near WTC site

Just further proof of what the journOlist proved, that the libseral media ALL follow the EXACT same template. But I like you Steve, compared to your cohorts, you are a breath of fresh air! Sorry if my compliment hurts your street cred!

Well, it shouldn’t be called the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ because it is not on Ground Zero. Calling it the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ is intellectually dishonest.

gordonbloyershow said:
The Mosque will never be built in that location. Stewart loses, I win. America wins. The people win.

You’re not even from New York, Gordo! And the “I win” childish rant is getting tiresome. Mind your own damned business!

Stephen Hogan said:
Well, it shouldn’t be called the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ because it is not on Ground Zero. Calling it the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ is intellectually dishonest.

There is a strip club also a couple blocks from ground zero. Its the “Ground Zero Strip Club”.

Actually Stephen, if I’m not mistaken, part of one of the planes did land in that spot, so technically it is part of groud zero. However, my point is the liberal media all stopped using the term “ground zero mosque” at the exact same time. They ALL use the exact same wording. It’s hilarious when Rush makes a clip of them ALL using the same wording on an issue. I don’t think they have any idea how ridiculous it sounds. They have lost ALL credibility and only serve to amuse us now.

Making fun of Fox News for the entertainment of the already converted isn’t going to stop the bleeding.

“This attitude in our politics is poisoning our nation and sabotaging our republic. It isn’t a competition. And as a New Yorker who has to see the WTC ruins every day, I take serious offense that you’re trying to interject yourself in such a way.” Stephen Hogan

First, the “poison” is coming from the Left, a minority that is trying to impose political correctness and group think on the majority of American’s who don’t contest the right to build the Ground Zero mosque, but do question the “propriety, the decency of doing so”.

Second, you ” take serious offense” because Americans who don’t live in New York City question the wisdom of allowing Muslims to build a victory mosque at Ground Zero? Five words: Who the fuck are you?
The murderous attack on 9/11 affected all Americans, continues to do so today, and will for the foreseeable future. All of us have a right and a responsibility to speak out on this issue. Three more words: Get over yourself.

alamo2 said:
You’re not even from New York, Gordo! And the “I win” childish rant is getting tiresome. Mind your own damned business!

I bet you didn’t make this point when all the goy hicks across America were lining up at recruitment centers on 9/12. “Don’t sign up! This is OUT battle. Can’t you see all the people of Manhattan fighting one another to enlist?!”

MichelleF said:
It’s hilarious when Rush makes a clip of them ALL using the same wording on an issue. I don’t think they have any idea how ridiculous it sounds. They have lost ALL credibility and only serve to amuse us now.

What’s more hilarious is when Jon Stewart shows countless clips of conservative rants that coincide with the folks on Fox. Now that is a knee slapper, I sure you would agree, Michelle Dear.

Latest poll shows 70% Nationwide OPPOSE the “Victory Mosque”!

This is a net LOSER for Democrats, but not as big a loser as their SUMMER OF RECOVERY!

Too Funny!! – It’s hard to tell where the VOTES are siphoning away from Democrats the fastest!!!

HAVE A NICE NOVEMBER 2!!!!!!!!

LMAO!!!

Sean68 said:
Can’t you see all the people of Manhattan fighting one another to enlist?!”

Actually, as a Vietnam veteran, I am always offended by arm chair patriots who wave the flag but never served their country. Thanks for helping me point that out.

alamo2 said:
Actually, as a Vietnam veteran, I am always offended by arm chair patriots who wave the flag but never served their country. Thanks for helping me point that out.

How’d I know you’d be a veteran! Now is that Vietnam-Era vet or did you see actual combat? In any case, assuming for a moment you’re not full of shit, do you think a person’s opinion on an issue like this should depend on one’s proximity to the point of controversy? How close does one have to be to voice an opinion? Do you chastize people from California who support the building of the mosque?

MichelleF said:
Actually Stephen, if I’m not mistaken, part of one of the planes did land in that spot, so technically it is part of groud zero. However, my point is the liberal media all stopped using the term “ground zero mosque” at the exact same time. They ALL use the exact same wording. It’s hilarious when Rush makes a clip of them ALL using the same wording on an issue. I don’t think they have any idea how ridiculous it sounds. They have lost ALL credibility and only serve to amuse us now.

That’s actually how the brain works, Michelle. We organize information in frames and when a frame has been adopted, it is difficult to change it. Since this entire controversy began with conservative blogs calling it the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’, the media quickly adopted the frame. Now, they are making a concerted effort to change that frame. It’s actually not too ridiculous itself, but I find it interesting that the media waited so long in this narrative to try to change it. It took them a lot of time to realize that it is intellectually dishonest and I think it’s a bit too late in the game to try to change the frame.

In regards to the plane, my understanding was that they were both largely destroyed in the building itself. However, if you are using debris as your factor of what determines ‘Ground Zero’ and ‘not Ground Zero’, you would have to extend Ground Zero to encompass all of the Financial District, Battery Park and City Hall.

Sean68 said:
I bet you didn’t make this point when all the goy hicks across America were lining up at recruitment centers on 9/12. “Don’t sign up! This is OUT battle. Can’t you see all the people of Manhattan fighting one another to enlist?!”

Alamo was pointing more towards the juvinile ‘I win’ comment Gordon made, rather than the general opinion people may or may not have on the matter.

Stephen Hogan said:
That’s actually how the brain works, Michelle. We organize information in frames and when a frame has been adopted, it is difficult to change it. Since this entire controversy began with conservative blogs calling it the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’, the media quickly adopted the frame. Now, they are making a concerted effort to change that frame. It’s actually not too ridiculous itself, but I find it interesting that the media waited so long in this narrative to try to change it. It took them a lot of time to realize that it is intellectually dishonest and I think it’s a bit too late in the game to try to change the frame. In regards to the plane, my understanding was that they were both largely destroyed in the building itself. However, if you are using debris as your factor of what determines ‘Ground Zero’ and ‘not Ground Zero’, you would have to extend Ground Zero to encompass all of the Financial District, Battery Park and City Hall.

Do you draw a line anywhere? How close is too close? Any why not build a mosque right across the street or even at the WTC site? At which point can one draw a line and NOT be called a racist? (not that you’re doing that, but many are)

Stephen,
If this were the only time the media was using the exact same template, you might have a point, but it’s a common occurrance. Once you start to really monitor the media, it’s easy to see. I invite you to do so.

Stephen Hogan said:
Alamo was pointing more towards the juvinile ‘I win’ comment Gordon made, rather than the general opinion people may or may not have on the matter.

He also made the hierarchy-of-opinion-value argument from convenience. To coin a phrase.

Stephen Hogan said:
That’s actually how the brain works, Michelle. We organize information in frames and when a frame has been adopted, it is difficult to change it. Since this entire controversy began with conservative blogs calling it the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’, the media quickly adopted the frame. Now, they are making a concerted effort to change that frame.

That is a fallacious argument, because if you perform a search on the phrase “Ground Zero Mosque” you will get an avalanche of returns from media outlets using that term in their own headlines. To blame this on extremist blogs is weak, or it implies that the mainstream media is guided by those type of blogs — and that is not anything the journalists will ever admit to, correct or not. They employed the term, and now what we are seeing is an attempt to alter the narrative.

Here is the question: if this is truly an innocuous community center like a Y(M/W)CA then why is it so imperative to have it built there, and why is stating it should be moved further away such a hateful concept?

MartiniShark said:
Can we stop with this ridiculous contention that there is a mosque in the Pentagon? There is not, and if that is your justification for favoring the construction of the NY mosque then your argument is empty.

There is indeed a place of Islamic worship in the Pentagon, but that is not my argument in favor of the mosque. The reason I support the mosque is because this is America, land of the free and home of the brave, as opposed to a land of religious discrimination out of fear.

MartiniShark said:
That is a fallacious argument, because if you perform a search on the phrase “Ground Zero Mosque” you will get an avalanche of returns from media outlets using that term in their own headlines. To blame this on extremist blogs is weak, or it implies that the mainstream media is guided by those type of blogs — and that is not anything the journalists will ever admit to, correct or not. They employed the term, and now what we are seeing is an attempt to alter the narrative. Here is the question: if this is truly an innocuous community center like a Y(M/W)CA then why is it so imperative to have it built there, and why is stating it should be moved further away such a hateful concept?

Because the Left views this as a battle against the Right that must be won. And the muslims didn’t choose the location or the name “Cordoba House” at random.

Azarkhan said:
“This attitude in our politics is poisoning our nation and sabotaging our republic. It isn’t a competition. And as a New Yorker who has to see the WTC ruins every day, I take serious offense that you’re trying to interject yourself in such a way.” Stephen Hogan

First, the “poison” is coming from the Left, a minority that is trying to impose political correctness and group think on the majority of American’s who don’t contest the right to build the Ground Zero mosque, but do question the “propriety, the decency of doing so”.

Second, you ” take serious offense” because Americans who don’t live in New York City question the wisdom of allowing Muslims to build a victory mosque at Ground Zero? Five words: Who the fuck are you?
The murderous attack on 9/11 affected all Americans, continues to do so today, and will for the foreseeable future. All of us have a right and a responsibility to speak out on this issue. Three more words: Get over yourself.

First, the poison comes from both sides and I’m not talking about this controversy in particular but rather the general atmosphere in which we try to govern our country.

Second, chill out. I have no problem with people voicing their opinion on this matter. I’m not trying to stop discourse, rather I encourage it. However, I took issue with the juvenile statement of ‘I win’ made by Gordon. Please look at the origin of my comment. You will see that I singled out the phrase ‘I win’.

Third, it isn’t on Ground Zero.

Fourth, I find it interesting that we are all now up in arms about the ‘sanctity’ of Ground Zero, when we have not put the same amount of pressure on the jerks that have been mismanaging the development of a memorial.

Fifth, I take personal offense because I have to walk by the physical reminder of the attacks every day. As long as the site remains a hole, New Yorkers will still be living through the physical realities of that day.

MartiniShark said:
Here is the question: if this is truly an innocuous community center like a Y(M/W)CA then why is it so imperative to have it built there, and why is stating it should be moved further away such a hateful concept?

Yes, move it to somewhere else where everyone would accept it with open arms, like Alaska.

Sean68 said:
Do you draw a line anywhere? How close is too close? Any why not build a mosque right across the street or even at the WTC site? At which point can one draw a line and NOT be called a racist? (not that you’re doing that, but many are)

Would the coward who gave my comment a thumbs down like to crawl out from cover and answer the questions I asked? If not, just stay tucked in your anonymous hole; it’s where you belong.

valkyrie101 said:
Yes, move it to somewhere else where everyone would accept it with open arms, like Alaska.

I suppose that’s a type of answer . . .

MichelleF said:
Stephen,
If this were the only time the media was using the exact same template, you might have a point, but it’s a common occurrance. Once you start to really monitor the media, it’s easy to see. I invite you to do so.

It is a common occurrence because this is how our minds work. It’s not just this particular instance and I am very aware of it. It happens all the time because that’s how we behave. It’s human psychology. I wasn’t making an argument, I was pointing out science.

Sean68 said:
How’d I know you’d be a veteran! Now is that Vietnam-Era vet or did you see actual combat? In any case, assuming for a moment you’re not full of shit, do you think a person’s opinion on an issue like this should depend on one’s proximity to the point of controversy? How close does one have to be to voice an opinion? Do you chastize people from California who support the building of the mosque?

Actually, sir, I was in Vietnam 1966-1967, fifteen months that forever changed my life. As to your other questions, I really think that anyone in our great country has the right to voice his/her opinion on any subject whatsoever. One is free to be a racist or hate a racist, as long as they do not impinge on anyone else’s being. What I do not like is when people make a major issue out of something that should not be, to the detriment of more important issues (such as the economy, healthcare, defense, etc.). But then, I also believe that the media (especially television) is most culpable for helping make non-issues more important than they should be. For the record, I believe that the terrorists who killed 3,000 at Ground Zero were Muslims — but not all Muslims are terrorists.

Sean68 said:
Do you draw a line anywhere? How close is too close? Any why not build a mosque right across the street or even at the WTC site? At which point can one draw a line and NOT be called a racist? (not that you’re doing that, but many are)

I would say ON the site is too close. But I won’t call you a racist. I understand the sensitivity many people have.

valkyrie101 said:
There is indeed a place of Islamic worship in the Pentagon, but that is not my argument in favor of the mosque. The reason I support the mosque is because this is America, land of the free and home of the brave, as opposed to a land of religious discrimination out of fear.

It is a non-denominational chapel to be used by employees of all faiths. It is not a mosque, as you charged.

Stephen,
It is a common occurrence because this is how our minds work. It’s not just this particular instance and I am very aware of it. It happens all the time because that’s how we behave. It’s human psychology. I wasn’t making an argument, I was pointing out science.

Again, I disagree. It’s not just that the media does the same story, it’s that they use the EXACT same wording. You will never convince me that happens by coincidence. Maybe 2 people use the same wording, but 10 or more?! I don’t think so.

Sean68 said:
Do you draw a line anywhere? How close is too close? Any why not build a mosque right across the street or even at the WTC site? At which point can one draw a line and NOT be called a racist? (not that you’re doing that, but many are)

See, that argument is called a slippery slope. Its not a valid argument structure and it can also work the opposite way. Well if two blocks is too close, so is three blocks, five blocks… where does it end? Shouldn’t NYC be off limits, I mean that’s where the most visible reminder of 9/11 occurred. It occurred on American soil, so any mosque built can be labeled as a victory mosque. It can be labeled offensive to 9/11 families anywhere it gets put.

Perhaps the truth is that Americans have a hard time accepting other cultures and we attack them until they assimilate into our culture.

MartiniShark said:
That is a fallacious argument, because if you perform a search on the phrase “Ground Zero Mosque” you will get an avalanche of returns from media outlets using that term in their own headlines. To blame this on extremist blogs is weak, or it implies that the mainstream media is guided by those type of blogs — and that is not anything the journalists will ever admit to, correct or not. They employed the term, and now what we are seeing is an attempt to alter the narrative.

Here is the question: if this is truly an innocuous community center like a Y(M/W)CA then why is it so imperative to have it built there, and why is stating it should be moved further away such a hateful concept?

The phrase actually originated from the Atlas Shrugs blog. Journalists these days frequently rely on blogs. I see a lot of reliance on Drudge and Kos all the time. And you are right, journalists did employ the term. That was their fault.

I don’t find the statement that it should be moved hateful.

Marcus says:

Perhaps the truth is that Americans have a hard time accepting other cultures and we attack them until they assimilate into our culture.

Congrats Marcus, you win the prize for the most idiotic post of the day, SO far!!! Don’t get too excited though, I’m sure one of your lib buddies will steal your crown before the day is up.

NORBIT said:
Latest poll shows 70% Nationwide OPPOSE the “Victory Mosque”! This is a net LOSER for Democrats, but not as big a loser as their SUMMER OF RECOVERY! Too Funny!! – It’s hard to tell where the VOTES are siphoning away from Democrats the fastest!!! HAVE A NICE NOVEMBER 2!!!!!!!! LMAO!!!

If only they could make that election date move up.

MichelleF said:
Stephen,
It is a common occurrence because this is how our minds work. It’s not just this particular instance and I am very aware of it. It happens all the time because that’s how we behave. It’s human psychology. I wasn’t making an argument, I was pointing out science.

Again, I disagree. It’s not just that the media does the same story, it’s that they use the EXACT same wording. You will never convince me that happens by coincidence. Maybe 2 people use the same wording, but 10 or more?! I don’t think so.

I’m not saying that it happens out of coincidence. I’m saying that it just happens because our minds organize information in that way. They use the exact same wording because that’s how framing works. I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m trying to explain the science behind your point :)

alamo2 said:
Actually, sir, I was in Vietnam 1966-1967, fifteen months that forever changed my life. As to your other questions, I really think that anyone in our great country has the right to voice his/her opinion on any subject whatsoever. One is free to be a racist or hate a racist, as long as they do not impinge on anyone else’s being. What I do not like is when people make a major issue out of something that should not be, to the detriment of more important issues (such as the economy, healthcare, defense, etc.). But then, I also believe that the media (especially television) is most culpable for helping make non-issues more important than they should be. For the record, I believe that the terrorists who killed 3,000 at Ground Zero were Muslims — but not all Muslims are terrorists.

Why do you think it is so important that it be built at this particular site? The people behind the mosque–at least those whom we know of–claim they want to build it to foster peace and understanding among people and faiths. They’re not being terribly sensitive. But then the imam behind it can’t even bring himself to condemn Hamas.

If that’s their true goal, why do you think they’re digging in their heels despite the intense emotions expressed by so many people? Wouldn’t it have been a great “symbolic” gesture of to quickly acknowledge the sensitivities involved and accept another location?

MartiniShark said:
I suppose that’s a type of answer . . .

The point is, if you have been following the news, pretty much anywhere a mosque is proposed it is opposed.

Stephen Hogan said:
The phrase actually originated from the Atlas Shrugs blog. Journalists these days frequently rely on blogs. I see a lot of reliance on Drudge and Kos all the time. And you are right, journalists did employ the term. That was their fault. I don’t find the statement that it should be moved hateful.

So you know, I wasn’t accusing you of the “hate” charge, but that has been the argumentative hand grenade around here for the better part of a fortnight. It will get lobbed on this thread soon enough, so duck.

Sean68 said:
If that’s their true goal, why do you think they’re digging in their heels despite the intense emotions expressed by so many people? Wouldn’t it have been a great “symbolic” gesture of to quickly acknowledge the sensitivities involved and accept another location?

Yea, sure, we have freedom in this country, but we don’t like you, so it would be more polite if you didn’t exercise it.

marcus.lewis said:
See, that argument is called a slippery slope. Its not a valid argument structure and it can also work the opposite way. Well if two blocks is too close, so is three blocks, five blocks… where does it end? Shouldn’t NYC be off limits, I mean that’s where the most visible reminder of 9/11 occurred. It occurred on American soil, so any mosque built can be labeled as a victory mosque. It can be labeled offensive to 9/11 families anywhere it gets put. Perhaps the truth is that Americans have a hard time accepting other cultures and we attack them until they assimilate into our culture.

You’re assuming we can’t agree on a reasonable distance. I think we can. And if we can’t, then let me ask you–as I’ve already asked–how close is too close?

Stephen says:

I’m trying to explain the science behind your point

I see what you are saying Stephen, but what you call science, I call journOlistic collusion! Doesn’t it bother you that the media appears (actually that’s being generous, since the journOlist proved it), to get together to decide how to cover a story?

“Well, it shouldn’t be called the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ because it is not on Ground Zero. Calling it the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ is intellectually dishonest.” Stephen Hogan

Thanks to AP and Stephen for introducing us to the Left’s next Big Lie.

valkyrie101 said:
Yea, sure, we have freedom in this country, but we don’t like you, so it would be more polite if you didn’t exercise it.

This is nothing but an ad hominem attack. People who oppose the mosque are racists. That’s what it always comes down to.

Mr B said:
Above should be in “quotes”.

“After listening to a critique of the nearly nine hundred billion dollars stimulus package from Republican Congressional leaders, along with some helpful suggestions on how to fix it,
President Barack Obama had a two word answer.

“I won,” President Obama said, indicating why the Republicans were not going to have any significant input into the bill.”

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1416138/barack_obama_to_republicans_i_won.html

Mr. B, please tell me you do see the difference here. There’s a couple big ones.

valkyrie101 said:
If only they could make that election date move up.

The lead time used to be of concern, but the way Democrats keeping shooting themselves in the foot over virtually every issue, I’d say 7-8 more weeks will be a good thing!

Hey! – How ’bout that “Victory Mosque”!!!!
heh – heh – heh!

valkyrie101 said:
The point is, if you have been following the news, pretty much anywhere a mosque is proposed it is opposed.

I have a problem swallowing that. Considering how hot-button this has been I am sure there would have been numerous reports on a string of denials to mosque construction. Check into how many are in the NY metroplex alone, it isn’t like they are lacking for places to worship. Every argument I have heard about this mosque is people are not against mosques being built, they oppose one a that location.

Sean68 said:
Why do you think it is so important that it be built at this particular site? The people behind the mosque–at least those whom we know of–claim they want to build it to foster peace and understanding among people and faiths. They’re not being terribly sensitive. But then the imam behind it can’t even bring himself to condemn Hamas. If that’s their true goal, why do you think they’re digging in their heels despite the intense emotions expressed by so many people? Wouldn’t it have been a great “symbolic” gesture of to quickly acknowledge the sensitivities involved and accept another location?

Actually, I don’t care where — or if — it is built. My point simply is that if they want to build it there, and they have followed all the correct zoning procedures, then they should have the right to do so without prejudice. That is what America is all about. We are better than these other countries (China, Iran, North Korea, to name three) that try delegitimize other beliefs through violence and censorship. America will allow anything to be said or done, as long as it doesn’t impinge on other people’s rights. And that includes building something that may offend others. And those others, of course, have the right to be offended, boycott, move, etc. as long as they don’t commit violence.

NORBIT said:
The lead time used to be of concern, but the way Democrats keeping shooting themselves in the foot over virtually every issue, I’d say 7-8 more weeks will be a good thing! Hey! – How ’bout that “Victory Mosque”!!!!heh – heh – heh!

We should be encouraging the Dem’s to drag this fight out. It’s a sure loser for them. Howard Dean knows it; that’s why he’s speaking out.

Norbit, I believe the people FINALLY get that elections do have consequences. In the last election, alot of people (some of which I am related to), bought into the “historic” implications of what an Obama victory would mean and forget to think about what hope and “change” would mean. Many people, with the help of the liberal media, ignored the obvious signs that were out there of how BO would govern and chose to believe that he was the centrist he and the media painted him as.

MartiniShark said:
I have a problem swallowing that. Considering how hot-button this has been I am sure there would have been numerous reports on a string of denials to mosque construction. Check into how many are in the NY metroplex alone, it isn’t like they are lacking for places to worship. Every argument I have heard about this mosque is people are not against mosques being built, they oppose one a that location.

So pretty much it all comes down to how New Yorkers despite their tough and angry disposition, are in the end gigantic cowards and pussies who are willing to justify denial of constitutional rights because they feel uncomfortable. I’m sorry, but that’s not a valid reason for anything, especially when the constitution is fully aware of that. People can’t dictate rights, especially concerning private property, something Americans seemed to have held true up until this one very instance.

Point is, you guys are pussies… wait, no there was more to it, but the gist of it is that.

MichelleF said:
No, Royal Race- Baiter/Religious Bigot, I’m pretty sure he saw the memo:

Here is some guidance on covering the NYC mosque story, with assists from Chad Roedemeier in the NYC bureau and Terry Hunt in Washington:
1. We should continue to avoid the phrase “ground zero mosque” or “mosque at ground zero” on all platforms. (We’ve very rarely used this wording, except in slugs, though we sometimes see other news sources using the term.) The site of the proposed Islamic center and mosque is not at ground zero, but two blocks away in a busy commercial area. We should continue to say it’s “near” ground zero, or two blocks away…
In short headlines, some ways to refer to the project include:
_ mosque 2 blocks from WTC site
_ Muslim (or Islamic) center near WTC site
_ mosque near ground zero
_ mosque near WTC site

Just further proof of what the journOlist proved, that the libseral media ALL follow the EXACT same template. But I like you Steve, compared to your cohorts, you are a breath of fresh air! Sorry if my compliment hurts your street cred!

Wait, what? Because journalists get together and want to call it what it is, they are part of a conspiracy? You do know that this isn’t being built at ground zero, therefore calling it the ground zero mosque is essentially a lie. So, hey guys, stop calling it at ground zero because it’s not true. And Michelle, it isn’t true. It’s not being built at Ground Zero. Near is more correct. And even more correct, it’s not a mosque, it’s a community center. Have you ever seen or been in a mosque (I have but it was an open to the public one in Turkey), they don’t have basketball courts unless they hide them in the basement.

MichelleF said:
I believe the people FINALLY get that elections do have consequences.

Michelle, you are absolutely correct. Americans found that out after the 2000 elections, when thousands of young men and women (not not 9/11) died needlessly in Iraq. And not one weapon of mass destruction was found.

alamo2 said:
Actually, I don’t care where — or if — it is built. My point simply is that if they want to build it there, and they have followed all the correct zoning procedures, then they should have the right to do so without prejudice. That is what America is all about. We are better than these other countries (China, Iran, North Korea, to name three) that try delegitimize other beliefs through violence and censorship. America will allow anything to be said or done, as long as it doesn’t impinge on other people’s rights. And that includes building something that may offend others. And those others, of course, have the right to be offended, boycott, move, etc. as long as they don’t commit violence.

We agree completely so long as you agree that the funding behind this mosque needs to be completely open to public scrutiny. So far, many of the backers are still anonymous.

MichelleF said:
Stephen says:

I’m trying to explain the science behind your point

I see what you are saying Stephen, but what you call science, I call journOlistic collusion! Doesn’t it bother you that the media appears (actually that’s being generous, since the journOlist proved it), to get together to decide how to cover a story?

I understand your point, but I feel that framing is the underlying cognitive principle at work here. They may be actively trying to change the frame, but that is only because they are trying to change how people will organize their cognitions in regards to this matter.

Sean68 said:
We agree completely so long as you agree that the funding behind this mosque needs to be completely open to public scrutiny. So far, many of the backers are still anonymous.

God knows, they can be terrorists right? Sorry, I have no patience for that kind of talk, fuck off with that bullshit.

Sean68 said:
We agree completely so long as you agree that the funding behind this mosque needs to be completely open to public scrutiny. So far, many of the backers are still anonymous.

I really don’t care who is backing the mosque, or who is behind opposition to it. But if you think it is important to know, then I have no problem with that. Just thinking more, if you think that some of the backers are terrorist organizations, then I see your point.

Permatiltx said:
Wait, what? Because journalists get together and want to call it what it is, they are part of a conspiracy? You do know that this isn’t being built at ground zero, therefore calling it the ground zero mosque is essentially a lie. So, hey guys, stop calling it at ground zero because it’s not true. And Michelle, it isn’t true. It’s not being built at Ground Zero. Near is more correct. And even more correct, it’s not a mosque, it’s a community center. Have you ever seen or been in a mosque (I have but it was an open to the public one in Turkey), they don’t have basketball courts unless they hide them in the basement.

Depends how one defines “Ground Zero”. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to refer to the WTC buildings and the structures adjacent (some of which were struck by large parts of the plane) as “Ground Zero.”

MichelleF said:
Stephen,
If this were the only time the media was using the exact same template, you might have a point, but it’s a common occurrance. Once you start to really monitor the media, it’s easy to see. I invite you to do so.

Just want to make sure we put both sides of this argument in place. It’s sort of like how all the conservatives and all the conservative media started saying “shove Health Care down our throats” over and over again without much change. It happens on both sides of the equation. It’s why it’s called an echo chamber.

alamo2 said:
I really don’t care who is backing the mosque, or who is behind opposition to it. But if you think it is important to know, then I have no problem with that. Just thinking more, if you think that some of the backers are terrorist organizations, then I see your point.

The fact is, large numbers of muslims supported the 9/11 attacks. Many of us have forgotten the polls taken in the islamic world that demonstrate this fact. We also have forgotten the images of palestinians dancing in the streets celebrating while our fellow citizens were jumping from the upper floors of the WTC. Our stupid President at the time and our dishonest press conspired to fabricate this image of islam as something peaceful and tolerant, when it is neither.

Sean68 said:
Depends how one defines “Ground Zero”. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to refer to the WTC buildings and the structures adjacent (some of which were struck by large parts of the plane) as “Ground Zero.”

I’m sure that people all over when they weren’t close to ground zero, considered the ruined shop that was closed down since 2001 to be hallowed ground but never realized it until now. Stop it with the excuses.

Hey Perm, speaking of Healthcare, did you hear the news of the day (not here on Mediaite, of course)? The dem’s have been instructed to stop saying Obamacare will lower HC costs, since everyone knows it’s a LIE now!! The lies are seeing the light of day, libs!

MartiniShark said:
I have a problem swallowing that. Considering how hot-button this has been I am sure there would have been numerous reports on a string of denials to mosque construction. Check into how many are in the NY metroplex alone, it isn’t like they are lacking for places to worship. Every argument I have heard about this mosque is people are not against mosques being built, they oppose one a that location.

But why do they oppose it? It’s tough to answer that question without speaking against the right to freedom of religion. You can do the sensitivity issue all you want. But in twenty to thirty years, when your kids look at the history of what happened, I don’t think we, as Americans, will be judged well. Can you say to your kids or grandkids, “Well, we were scared and we didn’t know what we were scared about, and when you’re scared, it’s okay to give up your beliefs and principles.” Can you say that to them?

Snipzor said:
God knows, they can be terrorists right? Sorry, I have no patience for that kind of talk, fuck off with that bullshit.

Who gives a fuck about your patience? Most sensible people and even some not so sensible people–e.g., Nancy Pelosi–think the question of funding is relevant.

MichelleF said:
Hey Perm, speaking of Healthcare, did you hear the news of the day (not here on Mediaite, of course)? The dem’s have been instructed to stop saying Obamacare will lower HC costs, since everyone knows it’s a LIE now!! The lies are seeing the light of day, libs!

That’s great. Thank God you changed the direction of the topics. I was worried we wouldn’t be talking about health care on a thread. I know I brought it up. But actually I brought up the idea of the echo chamber being on both sides of the aisle. I didn’t think we would change the ideas here. Let’s address the other things I brought up. Or we can talk about lying libs and health care since that seems to help your argument somehow.

Sean68 said:
You’re assuming we can’t agree on a reasonable distance. I think we can. And if we can’t, then let me ask you–as I’ve already asked–how close is too close?

I’m sure you and I could agree on a reasonable distance. I think building the Islamic Center and Mosque in New Jersey is reasonable. I also think that its current planned location is reasonable. I think reasonable here is the term that is being lost in the shuffle. Reasonable to me is that a private property owner can build whatever they wish on their property so long as no laws or codes are being broken. So the how close it can be to ground zero I think is limited by where they can get property. So if there is a parcel of land next to ground zero that is for sale and buildings like the one planned are allowed, then I say that is reasonable. Its not sensitive, but it is reasonable.

See what I don’t find reasonable is that even if the place of worship was not included in the plans, people would still be opposed to this.

Snipzor said:
I’m sure that people all over when they weren’t close to ground zero, considered the ruined shop that was closed down since 2001 to be hallowed ground but never realized it until now. Stop it with the excuses.

I’m curious, is the accusation of bad faith a separate argument or merely a complement to the racism accusation?

Um Perm correct me if I”m wrong, but wasn’t it YOU that brought up healthcare?

Sean68 said:
valkyrie101 said:
Yea, sure, we have freedom in this country, but we don’t like you, so it would be more polite if you didn’t exercise it.
Sean said:
This is nothing but an ad hominem attack. People who oppose the mosque are racists. That’s what it always comes down to.

An accusation of “racism”, which I did not mention or even think of, is something that you came up with yourself. Commonly called a “straw man”. People are afraid of the Islamics, so they oppose the building of the mosque, though they do not have a problem with Churches, strip clubs and delapitdated buildings in the same area.

Sean68 said:
The fact is, large numbers of muslims supported the 9/11 attacks. Many of us have forgotten the polls taken in the islamic world that demonstrate this fact. We also have forgotten the images of palestinians dancing in the streets celebrating while our fellow citizens were jumping from the upper floors of the WTC. Our stupid President at the time and our dishonest press conspired to fabricate this image of islam as something peaceful and tolerant, when it is neither.

You do know that those Palestinians dancing outside while our fellow citizens were jumping from the upper floors of the WTC was doing it in the daytime. During the 9/11 attacks, it would’ve been night time out there. A fact that many people missed. Not saying they didn’t dance in the streets, just that the video you saw couldn’t have happened when it was said to have happened.

*sigh* What happened to the idea that we live in a free nation and people are largely able to do as they wish? If the local people of New York City have an issue with it, let them dispute it in the local market, but this isn’t something that we all must get riled up about. I’m not gonna go to the middle of Kentucky to dispute a random building to be built, so why would I come in your back yard and say this can’t be built.

There’s multiple Christian churches, at least one other mosque, a strip club, and plenty of private businesses within a couple blocks of this location, so what difference does this make? Fox News is a terrorist command center if Obama is some crazy radical leftist since he’s been friends with some crazy lefties.

MichelleF said:
Marcus says:

Perhaps the truth is that Americans have a hard time accepting other cultures and we attack them until they assimilate into our culture.

Congrats Marcus, you win the prize for the most idiotic post of the day, SO far!!! Don’t get too excited though, I’m sure one of your lib buddies will steal your crown before the day is up.

Thanks for the personal attacks. Perhaps you should read your history and learn what happens through US history in terms of how other cultures were seen by “mainstream America” before the new culture finally assimilated.

MichelleF said:
Um Perm correct me if I”m wrong, but wasn’t it YOU that brought up healthcare?

Michelle, I already brought that up up there. It was an example of the echo chamber being on both sides. Not a debate about health care. A quick glance over what I wrote could lead you to think I was bringing it up to debate about it. But alas, I wasn’t.

Marcus, it wasn’t a personal attack, it’s fact. Your statement was completely idiotic! I don’t hold it against you though, you’re obviously a brainwashed liberal!

NORBIT said:
The lead time used to be of concern, but the way Democrats keeping shooting themselves in the foot over virtually every issue, I’d say 7-8 more weeks will be a good thing! Hey! – How ’bout that “Victory Mosque”!!!!heh – heh – heh!

Playing the “chicken little” game with Islam, as a political tactic, is almost as lame as “counting your chickens before they are hatched”. The parties have not even selected candidates yet.

Permatiltx said:
You do know that those Palestinians dancing outside while our fellow citizens were jumping from the upper floors of the WTC was doing it in the daytime. During the 9/11 attacks, it would’ve been night time out there. A fact that many people missed. Not saying they didn’t dance in the streets, just that the video you saw couldn’t have happened when it was said to have happened.

So long as you concede the point.

Permatiltx said:
But why do they oppose it? It’s tough to answer that question without speaking against the right to freedom of religion. You can do the sensitivity issue all you want. But in twenty to thirty years, when your kids look at the history of what happened, I don’t think we, as Americans, will be judged well. Can you say to your kids or grandkids, “Well, we were scared and we didn’t know what we were scared about, and when you’re scared, it’s okay to give up your beliefs and principles.” Can you say that to them?

That “Scared” argument is getting worn down. No one is scared — there are mosques all over that city. It is about decency. It is about considering the emotions of those who directly lost loved ones, at the hands of those who did so in the name of their faith. I am in no way implicating the Cordoba House members in the attacks, but the hijackers killed that day in the name of Islam, so to have an Islamic center that close is in fact insensitive to a great deal of people.

Try this out: If someone offered to erect a massive cross on the site of the attacks to honor the dead, I would be opposed. Why? Because Muslims, Jews, agnostics, and others lost their lives that day. Christianity should not trump the other faiths involved that day. Same with a mosque on/near the site where thousands perished at the hands of Muslim extremists. It is about decency and the sensitivities of the people involved.

valkyrie101 said:
An accusation of “racism”, which I did not mention or even think of, is something that you came up with yourself. Commonly called a “straw man”. People are afraid of the Islamics, so they oppose the building of the mosque, though they do not have a problem with Churches, strip clubs and delapitdated buildings in the same area.

Okay. I was just applying the left’s own standard definition of “islamophobia” as one that contains an accusation of racism. I retract.

Sean68 said:
So long as you concede the point.

No, I wasn’t saying that it didn’t happen. I don’t know if it did or didn’t. I certainly didn’t assume that from the video they showed. My first thought was, Isn’t it night over there? And then that point got played a bit. I can’t say yes or no because the evidence was not there to support either way. So, no concession, it’s just I would like to have the facts before I say right or wrong.

Chris Lindhartsen said:
*sigh* What happened to the idea that we live in a free nation and people are largely able to do as they wish? If the local people of New York City have an issue with it, let them dispute it in the local market, but this isn’t something that we all must get riled up about. I’m not gonna go to the middle of Kentucky to dispute a random building to be built, so why would I come in your back yard and say this can’t be built. There’s multiple Christian churches, at least one other mosque, a strip club, and plenty of private businesses within a couple blocks of this location, so what difference does this make? Fox News is a terrorist command center if Obama is some crazy radical leftist since he’s been friends with some crazy lefties.

Hey, I’m no redneck from Kentucky, but may I ask when you New Yorkers are gonna rebuild on the WTC site?

Permatiltx said:
No, I wasn’t saying that it didn’t happen. I don’t know if it did or didn’t. I certainly didn’t assume that from the video they showed. My first thought was, Isn’t it night over there? And then that point got played a bit. I can’t say yes or no because the evidence was not there to support either way. So, no concession, it’s just I would like to have the facts before I say right or wrong.

My larger point was that there was widespread approval in the islamic world of the 9/11 attacks. And believe it or not, a good many leftists, particularly in Europe, thought we had it coming.

MichelleF said:
Marcus, it wasn’t a personal attack, it’s fact. Your statement was completely idiotic! I don’t hold it against you though, you’re obviously a brainwashed liberal!

Explain why my statement was idiotic.

MartiniShark said:
That “Scared” argument is getting worn down. No one is scared — there are mosques all over that city. It is about decency. It is about considering the emotions of those who directly lost loved ones, at the hands of those who did so in the name of their faith. I am in no way implicating the Cordoba House members in the attacks, but the hijackers killed that day in the name of Islam, so to have an Islamic center that close is in fact insensitive to a great deal of people.

Try this out: If someone offered to erect a massive cross on the site of the attacks to honor the dead, I would be opposed. Why? Because Muslims, Jews, agnostics, and others lost their lives that day. Christianity should not trump the other faiths involved that day. Same with a mosque on/near the site where thousands perished at the hands of Muslim extremists. It is about decency and the sensitivities of the people involved.

I’m not talking about being scared of Muslims. The fear is about the pain. Yes, it’s going to hurt. But our beliefs, our principles will last a lot longer than the pain. I’ve heard German tourists visit Israel, and the Israelis don’t turn them away or say, Hey be more sensitive. We are scared about what we are going to feel about having the Islamic Center so close to Ground Zero. Thing is, we’ll get over it. But history won’t get over giving up our ideals so that we could be decent and sensitive. What is more important to you? The idea of America? Or a few moments of blissful peace. Now, I have wrestled with this idea. I haven’t let what the right or the left say influence how I feel. I feel for the pain. Hell, I live here. I actually see it. So many people suffered through pain to stand up for what was right. For what our country is supposed to mean. To say, the Hell with pain, this country was built on fundamentals that make us the greatest nation in the world. Look at that speech that Charlton Heston gave. Dear God, he’s right. And I was angry about it back then, and I now regret that. Just like there will be an issue that comes up in the next ten years, when the wound of 9/11 isn’t as deep, and you will say to yourself, Yeah, I was wrong on that. Wounds heal. But some wounds scar. And that’s not what I want in this case.

Snipzor said:
So pretty much it all comes down to how New Yorkers despite their tough and angry disposition, are in the end gigantic cowards and pussies who are willing to justify denial of constitutional rights because they feel uncomfortable. I’m sorry, but that’s not a valid reason for anything, especially when the constitution is fully aware of that. People can’t dictate rights, especially concerning private property, something Americans seemed to have held true up until this one very instance. Point is, you guys are pussies… wait, no there was more to it, but the gist of it is that.

To use your parlance, being a pussy would be shrugging your shoulders and saying “Well, they have a right, what’re ya gunna do”? Standing up and declaring that their desire to built on that location is wrong, and they should not want to build there, takes a bit more stones.

There are no Constitutional rights being denied. No one is saying they cannot practice their religion. Mosques are everywhere in that town, some blocks away. And, oh yea, this is not a mosque after all, so where is the religious conflict anyway? It is about sensitivities, to use a word from the mosque leaders themselves. They are claiming community outreach, but this is in fact a sign of defiance.

(Off topic — did you catch that RiffTrax live show last night?)

Sean68 said:
My larger point was that there was widespread approval in the islamic world of the 9/11 attacks. And believe it or not, a good many leftists, particularly in Europe, thought we had it coming.

Yes, I’ve heard of that. Funny thing is right now, I’m working on a documentary about Israel and Palestine, and the fact that they are not so far apart in attitudes. I’ve looked at the footage, and I thought, Man, this is not what I envisioned a Palestinian to be like at all. They have a very Western look, the wedding had a mix of old customs with new customs. And when the filmmaker talked to them about 9/11, most were upset about it. Saying it painted Islam in a poor light, and that they did believe it shouldn’t have happen. So, a good chunk of the Muslim world didn’t agree with the attacks. And I didn’t get this from polls or video of people dancing in the street. I got this from their mouths. It was a sobering experience and I hope this film gets finished soon. It helped change my mind on Palestine.

Oh, and here’s the big shocker to you. Most of the world doesn’t like us. If something happens in Iran right now, where an attack kills innocents civilians, would your first thought be, “Those poor innocents,” or “Eh, they had it coming.” Seriously, how would you respond? Now, do not take this out of context as if I’m saying We had it coming. No, we did not! No one has this coming! The people that die on the ground in Iran much like the people who died in 9/11 were innocents. We should not be punished for our faith or for our government’s actions. Again, we did not have it coming.

Opposing the community center is the idiotic standpoint. Period.

They have the right to build it there, the space is available for sale, the area is not sacred as evidenced by the commercialization post-9/11. Why aren’t we more upset, as Americans, that almost a decade later, we have yet to rebuild the WTC? That should be more upsetting to us as a Nation.

Members of Islam planned/carried out 9/11. Not the religion itself, but its members. Do you want to say that Catholics are pedophiles or that members of Catholicsm are pedophiles? Some people’s sensitivity over this issue just does not have the weight to defeat the right of the Park51 to build. Period. That’s what America is about.

I don’t have to like what you say, but I have to respect/acknowledge that you have the right to say it. I don’t have to believe in your religion, but you have the right to practice it. I don’t agree with the second amendment, but the right exists and I can’t take that away from anyone.

So, people just need to put on their big kid pants and deal. This is what America and its values are truly about.
———

And yes, Jon Stewart, Fox news is totally a Terrorist Command Center. ;)

Permatiltx said:
I’m not talking about being scared of Muslims. The fear is about the pain. Yes, it’s going to hurt. But our beliefs, our principles will last a lot longer than the pain. I’ve heard German tourists visit Israel, and the Israelis don’t turn them away or say, Hey be more sensitive. We are scared about what we are going to feel about having the Islamic Center so close to Ground Zero. . . .

I still say there is not a fear behind it. There is no compromising of our principles. The motivation behind it is the central issue. They claim it is meant as a symbol of community outreach, but when a large number of people are saying this is offensive the orginizers behind the construction or obstinate. Then how are they reaching out?

When Greg Gutfeld announced his plans for the neighboring gay bar he tried to sit down and talk with the orginizers. They refused, saying he wouldn’t be having an open dialogue. Their words: If you won’t consider the sensibilities of Muslims, you’re not going to build dialog. Those are THEIR OWN standards, but Americans who are having their sensibilities offended by this building going up should just accept this as normal.

So the leaders of the mosque can justify offense when their sensibilities are in play, but American sensibilities are to be disregarded.

Sean68 said:
Hey, I’m no redneck from Kentucky, but may I ask when you New Yorkers are gonna rebuild on the WTC site?

I wish I knew. There has to be something local there that holds this up, whether that be contractors, regulations, or possibly that office space is not in grave need, I don’t know the area so I couldn’t say. The thing that troubles me is that if most of the people complaining are saying that states rights should be front and center, which appears to be one of the major flags for the Repubs/Cons, then why can’t this ‘mosque’ issue be the exact same thing?

Permatiltx said:
Yes, I’ve heard of that. Funny thing is right now, I’m working on a documentary about Israel and Palestine, and the fact that they are not so far apart in attitudes. I’ve looked at the footage, and I thought, Man, this is not what I envisioned a Palestinian to be like at all. They have a very Western look, the wedding had a mix of old customs with new customs. And when the filmmaker talked to them about 9/11, most were upset about it. Saying it painted Islam in a poor light, and that they did believe it shouldn’t have happen. So, a good chunk of the Muslim world didn’t agree with the attacks. And I didn’t get this from polls or video of people dancing in the street. I got this from their mouths. It was a sobering experience and I hope this film gets finished soon. It helped change my mind on Palestine. Oh, and here’s the big shocker to you. Most of the world doesn’t like us. If something happens in Iran right now, where an attack kills innocents civilians, would your first thought be, “Those poor innocents,” or “Eh, they had it coming.” Seriously, how would you respond? Now, do not take this out of context as if I’m saying We had it coming. No, we did not! No one has this coming! The people that die on the ground in Iran much like the people who died in 9/11 were innocents. We should not be punished for our faith or for our government’s actions. Again, we did not have it coming.

So you’re saying we had it coming! Just kidding. At any rate, as a documentarian, you might consider that your subjects will not always be entirely truthful with you–such as when Palestinians are answering questions about (some of) their shameful spontaneous joy at the murder of 3,000 of your fellow citizens, even when the American asking the questions really, really understands why the world might not like us so much.

Marcus says:

Perhaps the truth is that Americans have a hard time accepting other cultures and we attack them until they assimilate into our culture.

I think the idiocy speaks for itself. I don’t think anyone outside the “hate America first” liberals would agree with that statement.

Sean68 said:
So you’re saying we had it coming! Just kidding. At any rate, as a documentarian, you might consider that your subjects will not always be entirely truthful with you–such as when Palestinians are answering questions about (some of) their shameful spontaneous joy at the murder of 3,000 of your fellow citizens, even when the American asking the questions really, really understands why the world might not like us so much.

I’m actually just editing some pieces, not the documentarian. The documentarian is actually a German. She does live here in America, but I don’t know if she introduced her as an American or a German or anything. First look with her accent and look, she doesn’t look like an American.

Chris Lindhartsen said:
I wish I knew. There has to be something local there that holds this up, whether that be contractors, regulations, or possibly that office space is not in grave need, I don’t know the area so I couldn’t say. The thing that troubles me is that if most of the people complaining are saying that states rights should be front and center, which appears to be one of the major flags for the Repubs/Cons, then why can’t this ‘mosque’ issue be the exact same thing?

People are just expressing their opinions. They have a right. I don’t see anybody standing in front of that building with weapons preventing anyone from building shit. And you may not be aware of it, but people from across the country died on that day (and yes indeed people from all over the world), not just New Yorkers. And since 9/11, a great many of those stupid flyover states have sent a good many of their sons and daughters to Afghanistan in response to that attack, which wasn’t just on NYC, but on the entire nation (and symbolically the West as it exists as a monolith in the minds of the islamists).

Sean68 said:
Okay. I was just applying the left’s own standard definition of “islamophobia” as one that contains an accusation of racism. I retract.

You are a gentleman and a fair man, sean. Like Stewart, I understand the right’s argument, it has some merit, but I still believe that going the extra mile to show the moderate Islamics that we have nothing against their religion when practiced within the law, is a better, more American approach.

After all that’s said and done, the rightwing people are going to have to look at their stuff-prejudice, bigotry and general stupidity. Imam Rauf is a well respected Sufi and I advise that those not familiar with Sufism to educate themselves a bit. Sufis are anathema to Islamic fundamentalists and are regularly killed in middle eastern countries. He is a strong moderate, etc. President Obama is obviously not a Muslim. The sooner the rightwing gets over their craziness the sooner we will start making serious progress in moving our country forward.

Val, you really confuse me. You are SO understanding and apologetic towards an Imam who would like Sharia Law imposted here, but completely hateful to mormons. People might take you seriously if you weren’t such a huge HYPOCRITE!!!

MartiniShark said:
I still say there is not a fear behind it. There is no compromising of our principles. The motivation behind it is the central issue. They claim it is meant as a symbol of community outreach, but when a large number of people are saying this is offensive the orginizers behind the construction or obstinate. Then how are they reaching out?

That’s a good point. And it’s funny how before this got into the national dialogue, people supported it. So, really, was it them reaching out, or did we just say Fuck you, and we fucked up the initial message. Of course, now, they have to build somewhere else. And it sucks, because they bought the property and now they have to sell it, and possibly lose money from it. Is it their fault, or ours?

MartiniShark said:When Greg Gutfeld announced his plans for the neighboring gay bar he tried to sit down and talk with the orginizers. They refused, saying he wouldn’t be having an open dialogue. Their words: If you won’t consider the sensibilities of Muslims, you’re not going to build dialog. Those are THEIR OWN standards, but Americans who are having their sensibilities offended by this building going up should just accept this as normal.

So the leaders of the mosque can justify offense when their sensibilities are in play, but American sensibilities are to be disregarded.

Do you see the difference? Now, is Greg doing this because he really wants to build a gay bar there and really wants to have the bar serve as an outreach? Or is he doing to paint Muslims as hypocrites or embarrass the leaders? Now, if its the latter, would you want to talk to the guy? I think you’re missing out on what the sensibilities they are talking about it. Is it a joke or does he legitimately want to build a gay bar for the gay community? Now, if it is the second part, then yes, the Imam is wrong in this case. If it’s the first part, then no, he’s not wrong.

Permatiltx said:
I’m actually just editing some pieces, not the documentarian. The documentarian is actually a German. She does live here in America, but I don’t know if she introduced her as an American or a German or anything. First look with her accent and look, she doesn’t look like an American.

In any case, you can imagine that when someone has their face in a camera and their asked something like this, they’re going to choose their words VERY carefully. As I said in the other post, polls taken in the islamic world showed shockingly high numbers of people who thought the 9/11 attacks as justified.

I can sit around with 50 Chomskies who can explain to me the Why of that attitude—actually they don’t need to explain it to me: I know the arguments well–but I don’t have to like it or regard it as something to be opposed. For the record, I am NOT a defender of israel. So far they’ve been successful in conning the shit out of this country and many of us are getting fed up with it. But israel was a secondary reason for the 9/11 reason. Actually, it was part of a post hoc justification.

valkyrie101 said:
You are a gentleman and a fair man, sean. Like Stewart, I understand the right’s argument, it has some merit, but I still believe that going the extra mile to show the moderate Islamics that we have nothing against their religion when practiced within the law, is a better, more American approach.

I try, Val. I usually just come on here to vent. So when I’m here and commenting, I’m at my worst.

MichelleF said:
Marcus says:

Perhaps the truth is that Americans have a hard time accepting other cultures and we attack them until they assimilate into our culture.

I think the idiocy speaks for itself. I don’t think anyone outside the “hate America first” liberals would agree with that statement.

Just quick question, seeing as in this argument I am more on the liberal side of the argument. Does this mean I hate America? Or is it just a certain type of liberal that hates American and you were using the phrase as an adjective? Either way, no side hates America. No right, no left. We are fighting for what we believe our country should represent. The right are worried about defending the security of this country. The left are focused more on the ideals and the belief systems established during the early years of our founding. For the most part, they are fighting for what they believe America should be. There’s no hate America in that. And news flash, there are a lot of skeletons in our closets, things that this country should be and is ashamed of (Slavery, treatment of Native Americans, discrimination against women, Vietnam). If I bring those up, does that mean I hate America? I call bullshit on that.

Sean68 said:
I try, Val. I usually just come on here to vent. So when I’m here and commenting, I’m at my worst.

That may be the most honest assessment I’ve heard about commenting here. And you know, I think we’re all guilty of that. Me included. Douchbag! (That last sentence was a joke. :) )

Perm,
I based my comment on your comment:

Perhaps the truth is that Americans have a hard time accepting other cultures and we attack them until they assimilate into our culture.

I never said that anyone who disagrees with me is Unamerican, nor do I think that. Why don’t you take a minute to reflect on your statement and maybe you can see why someone would say what I did about you.

Permatiltx said:
That may be the most honest assessment I’ve heard about commenting here. And you know, I think we’re all guilty of that. Me included. Douchbag! (That last sentence was a joke. :) )

LOL. “Douchebag!” A comments section classic!

MichelleF said:
Perm,
I based my comment on your comment:

Perhaps the truth is that Americans have a hard time accepting other cultures and we attack them until they assimilate into our culture.

I never said that anyone who disagrees with me is Unamerican, nor do I think that. Why don’t you take a minute to reflect on your statement and maybe you can see why someone would say what I did about you.

You might be confused. I didn’t say that. I know, lots of comments on here, easy to forget who said what. :) I just saw the “hate America first” liberal comment. Didn’t realize it was contextual. I get really mad when someone says one side of the argument hates America. I think it’s bullshit is all.

Permatiltx said:
That’s a good point. And it’s funny how before this got into the national dialogue, people supported it. So, really, was it them reaching out, or did we just say Fuck you, and we fucked up the initial message. Of course, now, they have to build somewhere else. And it sucks, because they bought the property and now they have to sell it, and possibly lose money from it. Is it their fault, or ours? Do you see the difference? Now, is Greg doing this because he really wants to build a gay bar there and really wants to have the bar serve as an outreach? Or is he doing to paint Muslims as hypocrites or embarrass the leaders? Now, if its the latter, would you want to talk to the guy? I think you’re missing out on what the sensibilities they are talking about it. Is it a joke or does he legitimately want to build a gay bar for the gay community? Now, if it is the second part, then yes, the Imam is wrong in this case. If it’s the first part, then no, he’s not wrong.

Most of the conflict over this is focused on the religious aspect, when really it is about the location. If that same center is built anywhere else in town there is ZERO uproar. In fact — speaking of them selling — I read someplace recently they may have gotten a cut price on the location because of the damage incurred during 9/11. That is unconfirmed though.

The reason I think Greg’s move with the gay bar is brilliant is that his motivations are so similar. He wants to build there to send a message, he gives the same explanation as far as reaching out and creating dialogue, and when there is conflict over it he is not allowed the same argument as the center’s leaders. I think it is so telling that he is accused of not considering their sensibilies, but that is the very reason there is a mosque controversy. He is being provocative, but building a mosque/center at that location is not, somehow. And again, the builders justify not speaking with him because of their sensibilies — our own sensibilities be damned.

Sean68 said:
Wouldn’t it have been a great “symbolic” gesture of to quickly acknowledge the sensitivities involved and accept another location?

That’s the same argument JFK made to civil rights leaders back in the 1960s. “The civill rights community should acknowlledge and respect the “sensitivity” of the American people and allow civil rights legislation to move slowly so as not to offend the sensibilities that currently exist.”

JFK was wrong and so is the argument you posted!

Sorry, Perm, no it wasn’t your comment, but my assessment was directed at that specific comment. If you don’t agree with his comment, my comments weren’t directed toward you. If you do agree with him, then yes, my comments also apply to you.

“AT FOX “REPORTING” THE “NEWS”
IS NOUNDERTAKING,
JUST RECITE A FEW LIES,
IT’S ALL SIMPLY FAKING.”…rrealroyaljking

This why the ratings are 4 to 7 times better for Fox than for any other station in the cable
world…no one of any intelligence or consequence is watching the most American hater,
Stewart.

The “mosque” at the Pentagon is a chapel used by all religions that need it. Talk about twisting the truth!!

Michael_T said:
That’s the same argument JFK made to civil rights leaders back in the 1960s. “The civill rights community should acknowlledge and respect the “sensitivity” of the American people and allow civil rights legislation to move slowly so as not to offend the sensibilities that currently exist.” JFK was wrong and so is the argument you posted!

I don’t find that an apt comparison at all. You’re the first person I’ve heard make it.

Wasn’t it the people behind this mosque themselves who described their purpose as one of peace, tolerance and concilliation? I was just taking them at their word.

MartiniShark said:
Most of the conflict over this is focused on the religious aspect, when really it is about the location. If that same center is built anywhere else in town there is ZERO uproar. In fact — speaking of them selling — I read someplace recently they may have gotten a cut price on the location because of the damage incurred during 9/11. That is unconfirmed though.

Here’s the funny thing about the location. This has been in the NY papers this week, don’t know if it got to rest of the country yet. The developer Sharif el-Gamal saw this kid on American Inventor. He liked him so much that he got the kid to help him broker a deal with landlords. The kid gave Sharif a list of properties, and it just so happens that among the properties was this one. Sharif chose this one from the list because they were showing it the next day. He thought it was a sign from God (Allah) and took the property the next day. Actually, it wasn’t a cut rate deal, it was, as Sharif believed, destiny. The kid at the time says that he didn’t know what they were going to build there, he was just there to help broker the deal. Now, as you can imagine, when you are a religious man and you believe something is a sign from God, it’s kind of hard to not want to drive that point home. You tend to not give up easily. Who knows how much is true, this is a new story that’s making it’s rounds around here as far as how the site was chosen. Less cut rate price, more sign from above.

MartiniShark said: The reason I think Greg’s move with the gay bar is brilliant is that his motivations are so similar. He wants to build there to send a message, he gives the same explanation as far as reaching out and creating dialogue, and when there is conflict over it he is not allowed the same argument as the center’s leaders. I think it is so telling that he is accused of not considering their sensibilies, but that is the very reason there is a mosque controversy. He is being provocative, but building a mosque/center at that location is not, somehow. And again, the builders justify not speaking with him because of their sensibilies — our own sensibilities be damned.

That may be so, but it really seems more of a joke and a direct slap in the face. I can see not wanting to have a dialog. Perhaps they should have the dialog, people should speak. Maybe a compromise could come out of it. I don’t know if it’s brilliant, but I get his idea.

Permatillx, the “developer” bought the property at a steal of under $5 million…he has been offered 4x (twenty million for the math challenged) and turned that down. Then according to Geraldo, they’ll accept somekind of deal but with conditions…bottomline? It’s the money stupid!

MichelleF said:
Val, you really confuse me. You are SO understanding and apologetic towards an Imam who would like Sharia Law imposted here, but completely hateful to mormons. People might take you seriously if you weren’t such a huge HYPOCRITE!!!

Nice. Like a momma bear. :-) I love Mormons, and I think they are a very good credit to the value of leading a religious life. They are greatly respected, for their outstanding contribution to Amercan society. They are unique and beautiful. Everybody knows that. I mean that. Even in sports Mormon athletes get respect for their ability to work as a team. Mormons are great. In a live and let live society, they are a work of art. I have no problem with them. I love them. I mean that. But there is a branch of Mormonism, and even growing among the branches of the whole tree, a people that predict, based on Mormon prophetic teaching, among scholars and religious leaders, over the past years, that these are the last days and America will/must meltdown before the return of Christ and the resurrection of Mormons to ever lasting glory. So it fair to ask Mitt, in my opinion, do you believe these are the “last days”, and do you forsee America melting down in the near future? I would also want to know whether he has a bomb shelter, store of weapons, gold, or any of those last days seeds, too.

Sue said:
“AT FOX “REPORTING” THE “NEWS”
IS NOUNDERTAKING,
JUST RECITE A FEW LIES,
IT’S ALL SIMPLY FAKING.”…rrealroyaljking

This why the ratings are 4 to 7 times better for Fox than for any other station in the cable
world…no one of any intelligence or consequence is watching the most American hater,
Stewart.

The “mosque” at the Pentagon is a chapel used by all religions that need it. Talk about twisting the truth!!

First, the higher ratings thing has been shown to be an logical fallacy (called ad populem, or as I like to say, “50 million Elvis fans can be wrong.”) Therefore, it has no basis in the argument. Below is the description of this fallacy from logicalfallacies.info:

Appeals to popularity suggest that an idea must be true simply because it is widely held. This is a fallacy because popular opinion can be, and quite often is, mistaken. Hindsight makes this clear: there were times when the majority of the population believed that the Earth is the still centre of the universe, and that diseases are caused by evil spirits; neither of these ideas was true, despite its popularity.
Example
(1) Most people believe in a god or ‘higher power’.
Therefore:
(2) God, or at least a higher power, must exist.
This argument is an appeal to popularity because it suggests that God must exist based solely on the popularity of belief in God. An atheist could, however, accept the premise of this argument (the claim that belief in God is widespread) but reject its conclusion without inconsistency.

If someone disagrees with you, it does not make them an American hater. This is an argument that also has no weight. (It’s a fallacy called Ad Hominem aka Personal Attack.) My feelings toward this tend to move more to the liberal side of the argument. My argument is about putting the American ideals and beliefs ahead of everything. I love this country. Jon Stewart loves this country. Glenn Beck loves this country. It’s a fight for it’s very soul. Saying a liberal or left hates America is again, unfounded. If they hated America, they would be fine with them just saying Go Fuck Yourself, and leaving. Again, doesn’t hold water.

Third, I don’t like the mosque in the Pentagon as an argument for the left either. Doesn’t hold water at all. First, not a mosque. (Though technically this isn’t a mosque either but an Islamic Center.) Second, the Pentagon, if they have a religious area, has to make it open to all faiths. That’s just smart, since we are a secular nation. But, Sue, would you be okay if the Islamic Community Center had a room that allowed all types of prayer and faiths in there?

I guess what I love the most in the whole world is how many hours the Uberlefty, Leftys and Liberals spend watching Fox…from dawn to dusk, huh? There must be some serious brain bombs throughout the left world….it is not equipped to deal with actual factual truths without twisting and pretzelizing every word, event and moment like the rest of the Lame stream media.. From several sources, I understand that Prez Obama blows his fuses on a regular basis, not to mention the “private” meeting he had with Fox prior to the election….he was pontificating, flailing his arms and pointing fingers in some agitation….wonder where his angst comes from? They wouldn’t bend over for him. That is why is ended up coming on O’Reilly’s program…not because he liked Fox, but ever the “politician”, he knew he had to reach the viewers in America. I mean when there are over 2,000,000 viewers in a given hour to 174,000 for CNN and the others not much better, what can you expect!

alamo2
There are over 300,000,000 Americans. About 10,000,000 of us served in Nam. The rest can wave a flag and be patriots if they chose. That is just one of the rights we fought for.
As for Gutfeld’s Ground Zero bar, I intend to be there opening night.

That is some story on the location. One thing I can say for sure — that kid that brokered the deal is a self-loathing anti-American extremist ! ! ! (That was a joke everyone, ease of the the thumb-button)

Being a local you may know something about this, and say how true it is: I recently heard that the plans for this building show that they will be able to look down directly on Ground-Zero from their roof. Not that such would prove anything, apart from diluting the message that this location is “nowhere near G-0!” I have to run out, but I’ll check back if you have info on that.

And with Greg, he said he is completely serious. He’s taking meetings with investors on this, he stated. he has admitted he is doing this partly out of provocation, but given the lack of true dialogue from the Cordoba House leadership that is partly what is behind the building of the mosque as well. It isn’t only Gutfeld, they blew off the governor as well when he wanted to discuss things with them.

Sue said:
Permatillx, the “developer” bought the property at a steal of under $5 million…he has been offered 4x (twenty million for the math challenged) and turned that down. Then according to Geraldo, they’ll accept somekind of deal but with conditions…bottomline? It’s the money stupid!

Why did you put developer in quotes?

Yes, this new story just started this week. Who knows how honest it is? But it does fit the religious narrative. But then again, when was the last time someone hid behind religion to make some cash? (I’m going to say about five minutes ago.)

Hey, permatillx, don’t tell me that, talk to the companies/agencies/television stations/advertisers/producers etc., etc. that use that stuff you call “ad populem”…..but, I know what you mean.. actually using an argument ad populem is precisely what the Uber,Left and Liberal does. I did not say Liberals, etc all hate America, I said Stewart was…”the most American hater…”; additionally, I understand that there are a group of people, not only in America, but the world that think they can do better by controlling people’s every movement, thought and life….about 24-30%….about the same percentage of kooks in every country. And finally, if the Islamic world did not adhere to to the tenets of the Koran so strictly then perhaps I could overlook their use of taquiyya to achieve their goals. I don’t care where they put their 101st mosque in New York…just stay the hell away from the cemetery known as the Twin Towers!!

Nice attempt at back-tracking Val, but using the whole of your posting history on the subject, you are indeed a religious bigot. Now, that’s all I have to say on the subject. I couldn’t care less if you hate mormons or not.

MichelleF said:
Nice attempt at back-tracking Val, but using the whole of your posting history on the subject, you are indeed a religious bigot. Now, that’s all I have to say on the subject. I couldn’t care less if you hate mormons or not.

I’m happy with my posts, and I know that Dr. Laura would approve, at least.

MartiniShark said:
That is some story on the location. One thing I can say for sure — that kid that brokered the deal is a self-loathing anti-American extremist ! ! ! (That was a joke everyone, ease of the the thumb-button)

Being a local you may know something about this, and say how true it is: I recently heard that the plans for this building show that they will be able to look down directly on Ground-Zero from their roof. Not that such would prove anything, apart from diluting the message that this location is “nowhere near G-0!” I have to run out, but I’ll check back if you have info on that.

And with Greg, he said he is completely serious. He’s taking meetings with investors on this, he stated. he has admitted he is doing this partly out of provocation, but given the lack of true dialogue from the Cordoba House leadership that is partly what is behind the building of the mosque as well. It isn’t only Gutfeld, they blew off the governor as well when he wanted to discuss things with them.

I don’t know about the roof thing. There is a building in between it and Ground Zero, so I don’t think they can see it from the roof or anywhere on that building. I’ve been by that site and you wouldn’t know Ground Zero is near it just from looking.

And the Imam, right or not, probably shouldn’t be blowing anyone off. A discussion should be had.

Sue said:
Hey, permatillx, don’t tell me that, talk to the companies/agencies/television stations/advertisers/producers etc., etc. that use that stuff you call “ad populem”…..but, I know what you mean.. actually using an argument ad populem is precisely what the Uber,Left and Liberal does. I did not say Liberals, etc all hate America, I said Stewart was…”the most American hater…”; additionally, I understand that there are a group of people, not only in America, but the world that think they can do better by controlling people’s every movement, thought and life….about 24-30%….about the same percentage of kooks in every country. And finally, if the Islamic world did not adhere to to the tenets of the Koran so strictly then perhaps I could overlook their use of taquiyya to achieve their goals. I don’t care where they put their 101st mosque in New York…just stay the hell away from the cemetery known as the Twin Towers!!

I don’t think Jon Stewart hates America. He’s a satirist, and yes, it’s going to ruffle a few feathers. But his arguments tend to evolve around what he (and the Daily Show writers) feel are American ideals. Unless, you mean of all the haters, then he’s the most American. He doesn’t like stupid people and there are a lot of stupid people in America (as in other countries.)

So, the big question: How far away?

ChuckfromTacoma said:
alamo2There are over 300,000,000 Americans. About 10,000,000 of us served in Nam. The rest can wave a flag and be patriots if they chose. That is just one of the rights we fought for.As for Gutfeld’s Ground Zero bar, I intend to be there opening night.

Dude, they have a 200 foot rule in NYC on selling alcohol near religious buildings. But only a block away is a strip club that is having an Islamic ladies night, every wednsday.

Sean68 said:
I don’t find that an apt comparison at all. You’re the first person I’ve heard make it.

Glenn Greenwald (salon.com) made that point yesterday during a video interview with Howard Dean.
http://tinyurl.com/26ny57q

Mr. Greenwald’s comment (re: JFK, civil rights & the public’s sensitivity) resonated with me as I try to sort out an issue that has good arguments, by well intentioned people, on both sides.

There have been lots of great discussion points made for this topic, much more than usually happens on this website. Outside of a few nuts calling each other bigots and racists and liars (from the right and left), for the most part, the discussion has been respectful. I’m impressed. I’ve even changed my mind a little bit about this whole issue. Isn’t America great, that it will allow diverse opinions to be spoken?

permatillx……anywhere outside the “zone” they have as a condition. And, yes to Stewart as a hater…comedy does two things, tell some very hard truths and tries to make people laugh. Stewart is great with the second part by using his hatred. And I put ” ” around the word developer, because I presume that is what he is, but I don’t know what he is in fact. I am the very first to agree that there are lots of stupid people, not only in America, but the world. All a decent, caring, loving human needs do is watch and listen….I enjoy both occupations.

Good thinking. I like it! A cesspool center for Republisum.

Just curious. How many people here have been to lower Manhattan and are familar with the area?

MichelleF said:
Marcus says:

Perhaps the truth is that Americans have a hard time accepting other cultures and we attack them until they assimilate into our culture.

I think the idiocy speaks for itself. I don’t think anyone outside the “hate America first” liberals would agree with that statement.

I’m sorry Michelle, but while the idea that we would attack people for not being assimiliated is idiotic, it is the truth of immigration for as long as we have been a country. It’s not hating America to note that people need to assimilate into our culture before they are truly accepted. Perhaps you take the usage of attacked offensive. If that is the case than my apologizes; I don’t mean the literal definition of attack. It is more meant as not accepted and xenophobic. All new cultures went through it, and it seems apparent to me that people are still xenophobic and understandably so.

gordonbloyershow said:
The Mosque will never be built in that location. Stewart loses, I win. America wins. The people win.

Hooray, the Right wins another wedge issue and loses another demographic of voters.

Keep on winning!!!

alamo2 said:
There have been lots of great discussion points made for this topic, much more than usually happens on this website. Outside of a few nuts calling each other bigots and racists and liars (from the right and left), for the most part, the discussion has been respectful. I’m impressed. I’ve even changed my mind a little bit about this whole issue. Isn’t America great, that it will allow diverse opinions to be spoken?

Perfectly true… perhaps Mediaite folks can create a social contract… agree to only respond to the posting of actual arguments and ignore the attack posts… it has gotten quite ugly around here… much less a public sphere than would honor the space… kudos to all…

The real winner in all of this is the dead squirrel atop Gordon Bloyer’s thick skull.

MediaWhore said:
The real winner in all of this is the dead squirrel atop Gordon Bloyer’s thick skull.

Gordon has been posting the same thing on various articles for days, might be time to resist the urge for response… perhaps this will force him to promote his views in a more instructive manner… depriving him of any incentive.

adel said:
Perfectly true… perhaps Mediaite folks can create a social contract… agree to only respond to the posting of actual arguments and ignore the attack posts… it has gotten quite ugly around here… much less a public sphere than would honor the space… kudos to all…

It’s extremist [insert vulgarity] like you who want to limit [random civil right]! You [unwarranted personal identifier] always [exagerrated social restriction] on the rest of us! Whenever [mass generalized group] start talking about [unresearched Constitutional claim] you know that was a talking-point from [polarizing media figure] and you just parrot whatever the [party affiliation] tell you to say! Pathetic!! That is typical [insult to the lack of poster's intelligence], and frankly we [unproven claim to own intelligence] laugh whenever you post [expletive] like that! Why don’t you just [direction to partake in a child-like activity] and leave the discussion to the adults! In fact, why don’t you [invitation to engage in an impossible physical activity] and leave us alone!

[refuse to address the subject of thread]
[crow about own intelligence]

MartiniShark said:
It’s extremist [insert vulgarity] like you who want to limit [random civil right]! You [unwarranted personal identifier] always [exagerrated social restriction] on the rest of us! Whenever [mass generalized group] start talking about [unresearched Constitutional claim] you know that was a talking-point from [polarizing media figure] and you just parrot whatever the [party affiliation] tell you to say! Pathetic!! That is typical [insult to the lack of poster's intelligence], and frankly we [unproven claim to own intelligence] laugh whenever you post [expletive] like that! Why don’t you just [direction to partake in a child-like activity] and leave the discussion to the adults! In fact, why don’t you [invitation to engage in an impossible physical activity] and leave us alone! [refuse to address the subject of thread][crow about own intelligence]

That was pretty good, shark. Very creative :-)

Gotta love John Stewart. I hope he runs for office someday… we could all use someone with a sense of humor out there. Good job John

Stewart ftw once more.

gordonbloyershow said:
The Mosque will never be built in that location. Stewart loses, I win. America wins. The people win.

It’s not a Mosque, Mr. Blowhard. It’s a Community Center, there’s a Mosque just two blocks from that building. There are 100 Mosques in NYC.

Sue said:
. I don’t care where they put their 101st mosque in New York…just stay the hell away from the cemetery known as the Twin Towers!!

Like the White Man stayed away from the Native American burial grounds and other Native American land when there was gold or silver found on that land?

Interesting how these wingnuts miss the point.

We real new Yorkers remember that day that Rudy told Rupert Murdoch’s Saudi prince partner to take his check and shove it after he lectured Rudy on how 9/11 was our fault.

Rudy toe up his check and it was well documented.

Exit question – why do the people at Faux News believe this condescending Prince is liberal and why is he a stake holder in the most watched American news network????

Why is this prince allowed to criticize us and get a pass???

Wingnuts – can you hear me????

Answers please – if you dare.

If the funding of this place is truly an issue and we are worried it may become a terrorist training hub – then what earthly difference will moving it further from GZ make?

Jon Stewart exposes Fox Not News Channel for the propaganda outlet it truly is. “Stewart Connects The (