Well, then. If a reasonable and unbiased man such as Moore says it should be built, then that should settle it.

If you needed another reminder why the Republicans are going to win in a landslide come November, here comes Michael Moore to seal the deal.

Instead of building it right on ground zero, why not build it right on top of Michael Moore instead? I believe his fat, gelatinous body may provide additional waterproofing at the building base once the synthetic waterproofing breaks down.

I guess Moore realized that his name hadn’t been in the paper for a couple of weeks, so he had to say something really stupid so we could see his mug once again. What a media pig.

The Muslim prohibition of pork prevents them from building on Moore’s property.

writer said:
The Muslim prohibition of pork prevents them from building on Moore’s property.

LOL

You know, I almost agree with him. I was initially in the “just move it out of sensitivity” camp, but as mosque protests have begun to spring up all over the country, now I think moving it just creates the classic slippery slope. The anti-Islam bigots have hardened me into thinking moving the mosque just creates bad precedent.

No, not all protesters or those who disagree with its location are bigots, but I bet a much higher proportion of those protesting publicly are bigoted against Islam than the proportion voting in the polls. I mean, this notion that we’re at war with 25% of the world population just offends me to the core.

lets just abolish all religions then there wouldn’t be anything to fight about

And CNN wonders why it doesn’t have any viewers? Who saw this besides the folks who have sites about news/cable outlets. Not many.

No one really cares what Moore thinks; CNN just doesn’t get it anymore.

The network that claims it’s above it all. Bwahahahaha

“He says that if a family member of his was murdered by someone, he’d love to be on the jury at the trial, but we have rules against that in this country for a reason.”

You think equating jurisprudence as it concerns due process is analogous to our being sensitive to the wishes of families as regards a grave site area?

Moore is 100% correct

jooce81 said:
lets just abolish all religions then there wouldn’t be anything to fight about

Reminds me of a South Park episode where, in the future, several different atheist groups were killing each other over who were the most pure atheists. I think Stone and Parker were spot on in that people will never have a shortage of things to kill each other over.

If Moore is such a supporter of peace and human rights why doesn’t he take his bull horn over to any Muslim country, like say Iran, and start criticizing them for their condemnation and murder of homosexuals and their atrocious record on women’s rights?

He is nothing but a coward.

I’ll make the Muslims a deal, yes, we can have a Mosque on ground zero if:
1. The Christians/Catholics get to build churches in Saudi Arabia with giant crosses, including one next to Mecca.
2. The Muslims stop the practicing honor killings with Muslims they don’t like.
3. Muslims who wish to become Christians are free to do so without being killed by their families.
4. Christians shall be free to proselytize in Muslim countries (a privilege Muslims enjoy all over the western world).
5. Muslim cab drivers promise to pick up people even if they carry dogs or wine bottles.
6. Muslims stop asking for special treatment, such as wearing the hijab in a job where nobody is allowed to wear anything outside the company uniform.
7. Muslims promise not to kill, beat, burn, stab, or otherwise harass people who make Muslim cartoons or movies they deem Islamophobic.

When the Muslim world can do all that, I’ll be fine with a mosque on ground zero. Until then, no mosque, no way!

Michael Moore is a camwhore who is trolling the USA for attention, and that is about the nicest thing I would say about him. No thanks to Wolf for giving him airtime, but then if people wonder why CNN has no viewers, choices like this one explain it. See Mediaite’s other article on FOX, CNN, and MSNBC elsewhere on the site for the details. Needless to say I am not in favor of the Victory Mosque or the Imam…..

Cecelia said:
“He says that if a family member of his was murdered by someone, he’d love to be on the jury at the trial, but we have rules against that in this country for a reason.”

You think equating jurisprudence as it concerns due process is analogous to our being sensitive to the wishes of families as regards a grave site area?

greg454 said:
I’ll make the Muslims a deal, yes, we can have a Mosque on ground zero if:
1. The Christians/Catholics get to build churches in Saudi Arabia with giant crosses, including one next to Mecca.
2. The Muslims stop the practicing honor killings with Muslims they don’t like.
3. Muslims who wish to become Christians are free to do so without being killed by their families.
4. Christians shall be free to proselytize in Muslim countries (a privilege Muslims enjoy all over the western world).
5. Muslim cab drivers promise to pick up people even if they carry dogs or wine bottles.
6. Muslims stop asking for special treatment, such as wearing the hijab in a job where nobody is allowed to wear anything outside the company uniform.
7. Muslims promise not to kill, beat, burn, stab, or otherwise harass people who make Muslim cartoons or movies they deem Islamophobic.

When the Muslim world can do all that, I’ll be fine with a mosque on ground zero. Until then, no mosque, no way!

Well sure. Let’s use their faults as a justification for not living up to the principles of our Constitution.
Let’s not just unjustly connect American citizens to the 9/11 terrorists, let’s also unjustly connect them to every bad thing we can think of that Muslims are doing.

Sorry, Cecelia I didn’t mean to include your post in there and was not responding to your post

greg454 said:
1. The Christians/Catholics get to build churches in Saudi Arabia with giant crosses, including one next to Mecca.

1. that’s a country rule.. difference America is a country of Freedom, Saudi Arabia is NOT!
4. again, laws of that country, difference between a free country and not.

and for the last time it’s not at Ground Zero, its 2 NYC blocks away, and fact is people have no say if its built or not. The only person who can legally say if this gets built or not its the owners. People can go around and say whatever they want, that’s the greatness that is America, you are free to voice your displeasure.. BUT at the end of the day the mosque gets built whether anyone likes it or not.

greg454 said:
I’ll make the Muslims a deal, yes, we can have a Mosque on ground zero if:
1. The Christians/Catholics get to build churches in Saudi Arabia with giant crosses, including one next to Mecca.
2. The Muslims stop the practicing honor killings with Muslims they don’t like.
3. Muslims who wish to become Christians are free to do so without being killed by their families.
4. Christians shall be free to proselytize in Muslim countries (a privilege Muslims enjoy all over the western world).
5. Muslim cab drivers promise to pick up people even if they carry dogs or wine bottles.
6. Muslims stop asking for special treatment, such as wearing the hijab in a job where nobody is allowed to wear anything outside the company uniform.
7. Muslims promise not to kill, beat, burn, stab, or otherwise harass people who make Muslim cartoons or movies they deem Islamophobic.

When the Muslim world can do all that, I’ll be fine with a mosque on ground zero. Until then, no mosque, no way!

Why do you hate America? Why don’t you believe in American exceptionalism? Why must you compare America with Saudi Arabia? If we are truly the greatest country on Earth (which, for the record, I believe we are), then our standards shouldn’t be subject to change based on what happens in other (lesser) countries. Did you burn the flag already today or do you save that for before bed?

libra blue said:
If Moore is such a supporter of peace and human rights why doesn’t he take his bull horn over to any Muslim country, like say Iran, and start criticizing them for their condemnation and murder of homosexuals and their atrocious record on women’s rights?

He is nothing but a coward.

I think common sense would be he’s be shot.. see in America we have Free Speech.. in Iran, Saudi Arabia, N Korea ect they don’t.. pretty simple

CosmosDan said:
Well sure. Let’s use their faults as a justification for not living up to the principles of our Constitution.

You and other libs have beaten that straw man into the ground. I have read not one comment where someone said they didn’t have a right to build a mosque there. The question is sensitivity.

BTW, you need to get a better copy of the Constitution , better yet, READ it. It says nothing about the location of places of worship.

MM, yes, the Koran does mention Jesus and it also mentions Moses both of whom are revered in Islam as God’s messengers.

But explain why so many Muslims not only want to see the destruction of Israel but have tried to destroy it and one Muslim nation in particular calls for its destruction today. This is representative of a peaceful religion?

I think not.

jooce81 said:
1. that’s a country rule.. difference America is a country of Freedom, Saudi Arabia is NOT!
4. again, laws of that country, difference between a free country and not.

True, however, take it a bit further. If, in a a muslim theocracy, any religious symbols outside of islam are outlawed, what does that tell you about islam? The Saudi monarchy is certainly not considered by the mainstream to be “radical”, yet have zero tolerance for anything non-muslim. This is the left’s favorite new victim group. Congratulations. They play you like little marionettes, and would eliminate you if they could.

notsofast said:
You and other libs have beaten that straw man into the ground. I have read not one comment where someone said they didn’t have a right to build a mosque there. The question is sensitivity.

BTW, you need to get a better copy of the Constitution , better yet, READ it. It says nothing about the location of places of worship.

MM, yes, the Koran does mention Jesus and it also mentions Moses both of whom are revered in Islam as God’s messengers.

But explain why so many Muslims not only want to see the destruction of Israel but have tried to destroy it and one Muslim nation in particular calls for its destruction today. This is representative of a peaceful religion?

I think not.

The Westboro Baptist Church celebrates the death of American soldiers. This is representative of a peaceful religion? I think not.

I’m not a Michael Moore fan but I thought I’d link this article

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/08/another-wound-for-muslims_n_709848.html

which is about the Muslim families who lost loved ones ion the 9/11 attack.

“When the subject of the proposed Islamic center near Ground Zero came up in Fahina Chowdhury’s government class recently, the high school freshman at Oklahoma City’s Classen School for Advanced Studies, spoke up.

“Muslim people are victims also,” said Chowdhury’s mother, Baraheen Ashrafi, who moved to Oklahoma in 2002 to live with her sister. “My husband, he never got to see our son.

Talat Hamdani, whose son Salman, a New York City Police cadet and emergency medical technician, was killed 9/11 trying to help the injured, agrees. “We did not kill, we did not attack. We were attacked. We were one of the victims,” she said. “Salman was also murdered, and yet we’ve been carrying the cross since 9/11

Someone tell me how it’s just in any way to tell these Americans citizens that they can’t have a place of worship 2 blocks away because they committed the offense of having the same religion as the people who murdered their family members.

They will build the Mosque in the proposed sight 2 blocks from ground zero.And like all the other Mosques bulit in America nothing will happen.There is 100% certitude that when the ground zero Mosque is opened an all enclusive ceremony will have people from all faiths included so that maybe we can quit bitching about other peoples religions.

notsofast said:
You and other libs have beaten that straw man into the ground. I have read not one comment where someone said they didn’t have a right to build a mosque there. The question is sensitivity.

BTW, you need to get a better copy of the Constitution , better yet, READ it. It says nothing about the location of places of worship.

MM, yes, the Koran does mention Jesus and it also mentions Moses both of whom are revered in Islam as God’s messengers.

But explain why so many Muslims not only want to see the destruction of Israel but have tried to destroy it and one Muslim nation in particular calls for its destruction today. This is representative of a peaceful religion?

I think not.

you make very valid point.. its about sensitivity.. but in the grand scheme of things sensitivity doesn’t mean anything. The owners of the building have the right to be sensitive, just as they have the right to be, in many’s view “insensitive”.

The constitution states that if you own property you can whatever you want as long as it’s not illegal, obviously different states/areas have various zoning laws.

Muslims call for the destruction of Israel because they see them as invaders, settling on their “holy Land” Jews, believe it’s “their” holy land.. they call for the destruction just as a highly gov’t ranked israeli Rabbi called for death to all the Palistinians.. It’s the same game of My God has a bigger dick than your god, and its getting old, and stupid

Publius219 said:
The Westboro Baptist Church celebrates the death of American soldiers. This is representative of a peaceful religion? I think not.

Who have they killed?

I’ll wait!

Mr.Papshmer said:
True, however, take it a bit further. If, in a a muslim theocracy, any religious symbols outside of islam are outlawed, what does that tell you about islam? The Saudi monarchy is certainly not considered by the mainstream to be “radical”, yet have zero tolerance for anything non-muslim. This is the left’s favorite new victim group. Congratulations. They play you like little marionettes, and would eliminate you if they could.

It’s the same with Christianity, where its said there can only be one god, and hes a jealous god. same idea, just practiced in more free countries.. if you wanna good example look at Europe during the Crusades, what happened to countries and civilizations who weren’t Christian, they surrendered to the church or died, look what happened to the Pagen slaves in the name of Christianity.. it’s all the same at the core

Publius219 said:
The Westboro Baptist Church celebrates the death of American soldiers. This is representative of a peaceful religion? I think not.

Also, what country have they called for the destruction of and when was it that they flew planes into a building, and train young kids to wear bomb vests?

Manufacturing Dissent

good documentary about Michael Moore….from a Moore fan, who’s a Canadian.

funny some people mention bigots….Muslims are bigots against non-believers….ok maybe not all, just most. Look up the word, then you can understand. Take a look at Europe. If our “leaders” would stand up and shout that we will not accept what is going on in other countries, and that no religious jurisprudence, will ever trump that of the United States. That there will be no seperate society that are above the rules and regulations of this country.

Then maybe people wouldn’t be as worried, since you can see it EVERY FUCKIN DAY in the world how those who follow Islam behave. Silent Majority will be overrun by a Loud Minority. Fear of retribution is irrelevent. Fight for liberty is a daily task. I’ve known Muslims, interacted with them. But please, call me every name you want. You’ll be wrong.

Muslims: “Don’t blame us for the acts of a few.”

“Lone Pastor Threatens to Burn Koran”

Muslims: “Death to America. Death to America.”

notsofast said:
Also, what country have they called for the destruction of and when was it that they flew planes into a building, and train young kids to wear bomb vests?

they call for the death of anyone who isn’t associated with them. Soldiers, gays, ethic groups, other religions. ect ect.. they are just a bunch of crazies

jooce81 said:
hey call for the death of anyone who isn’t associated with them. Soldiers, gays, ethic groups, other religions. ect ect.. they are just a bunch of crazies

Nice lie!

They are crazy but you need not lie about them like you just did.

notsofast said:
Nice lie!

They are crazy but you need not lie about them like you just did.

“nice lie”? a simple google search shows you all you need to know about that group.

http://www.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=westminster+baptist+church&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1920&bih=887

From “God hates Fags” to “God Hates America” to “God Hates the soldiers” I can keep going.. I mean seriously man are you actually trying to defend Rev Phelps and his bunch…

jooce81 said:
It’s the same with Christianity, where its said there can only be one god, and hes a jealous god. same idea, just practiced in more free countries.. if you wanna good example look at Europe during the Crusades, what happened to countries and civilizations who weren’t Christian, they surrendered to the church or died, look what happened to the Pagen slaves in the name of Christianity.. it’s all the same at the core

I’m not a Christian, but I live in a country where the overwhelming majority of religious people are Christian. I’ve never felt threatened by them, and when the JW’s or the Mormons come to my door, I politely turn them away, and they go. Every time I hear that boring old argument about the crusades or the inquisitions or some such crap, I just want to laugh. This is the 21st century. By the way, regarding the crusades, I think you might want to brush up on your history a little bit.

notsofast said:
Nice lie!

They are crazy but you need not lie about them like you just did.

“Thank God for 9/11″ they actually walked around with those signs at funerals..

It’s only fair, the USA has been turning mosques in to ground zeroes for nearly nine years now.

Mr.Papshmer said:
I’m not a Christian, but I live in a country where the overwhelming majority of religious people are Christian. I’ve never felt threatened by them, and when the JW’s or the Mormons come to my door, I politely turn them away, and they go. Every time I hear that boring old argument about the crusades or the inquisitions or some such crap, I just want to laugh. This is the 21st century. By the way, regarding the crusades, I think you might want to brush up on your history a little bit.

Does it matter when it happened?? fact is it happened, so you cannot brush one religion as evil and discount the history of another, Christians aren’t saints.. no pun intended

jooce81 said:
From “God hates Fags” to “God Hates America” to “God Hates the soldiers” I can keep going.. I mean seriously man are you actually trying to defend Rev Phelps and his bunch…

Again you lie. You have to be a lib!

You said they “they call for the death of anyone who isn’t associated with them.”

That’s a lie, and from what I hear about in Iran, if you are gay, they kill ya.

And you support that!!

How are those apples!

jooce81 said:
“Thank God for 9/11″ they actually walked around with those signs at funerals..

And most likely, the SCOTUS will uphold their right to do so, despite how hateful and deplorable l it is.

notsofast said:
Again you lie. You have to be a lib!

You said they “they call for the death of anyone who isn’t associated with them.”

That’s a lie, and from what I hear about in Iran, if you are gay, they kill ya.

And you support that!!

How are those apples!

You obviously have never heard Rev Phelps speak, or your a supporter of his.. “how are those apples” what are you 12, are we playing a game of 1 up?

jooce81 said:
You obviously have never heard Rev Phelps speak, or your a supporter of his.. “how are those apples” what are you 12, are we playing a game of 1 up?

I showed you were a lying lib. Libs can never make a point without lying and you just proved it again!

and I dont support Iran, thats the point, I’m an American, I care about America, I dont care is Iran and Israel wipe each other off the planet, if they both parrished tonight I wouldnt loose any sleep, I care about this country and this country only.

notsofast said:
I showed you were a lying lib. Libs can never make a point without lying and you just proved it again!

now your not even making sense. not a lib, an independant, used to be a registered Rep until Bush/Cheney, voted for Nader the last 2 elections. but ya got me

“The WBC is not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations. The church describes itself as following Primitive Baptist and Calvinist principles, though mainstream Primitive Baptists reject the WBC and Phelps. In 2007 it had 71 members.”

I’m so glad you are afraid of this nut and his 71 followers.

jooce81 said:
jooce81 says:
September 13, 2010 at 10:20 pm jooce81(Quote)

Show that the WBC “calls for the death of anyone who isn’t associated with them.” You made the claim.

notsofast said:
“The WBC is not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations. The church describes itself as following Primitive Baptist and Calvinist principles, though mainstream Primitive Baptists reject the WBC and Phelps. In 2007 it had 71 members.”

I’m so glad you are afraid of this nut and his 71 followers.

who’s “afraid of them”? you bring up “sensitivity ” when it comes to the mosque but give these clowns a free pass, no ones afraid of these idiots

jooce81 said:
who’s “afraid of them”? you bring up “sensitivity ” when it comes to the mosque but give these clowns a free pass, no ones afraid of these idiots

Show where I gave ‘em a free pass.

I’ll wait. try not to lie this time.

jooce81 said:
Does it matter when it happened??

Yes, it does, and if you fail to understand that, it’s because you’re letting your Jesusphobia get the best of you.

“Hey, nobody locks their doors in Canada! Cuba has the best healthcare in the world; the doctors moonlight as hookers, so you can get the clap and a shot of penicillin in one visit! 911 was an inside job!” This idiot should go dummy up with a donut and leave the serious talk to the grown-ups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e647x8xFKTs < hates comedians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gAnwTWFuyI&feature=related < hates Austrialia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40xeRKdI4fY&feature=related < likes what happened to the VA tech massacre
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6lRrTa49io&feature=related < hates canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKxpcIgEq2k&feature=related < Hates Dick Cheney and his wife
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKxRB4qvHrQ&feature=related < hates the soldiers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sB6UPdI7zw&feature=related < hates america (even created a song about it)

shall we go on?

Mr.Papshmer said:
Yes, it does, and if you fail to understand that, it’s because you’re letting your Jesusphobia get the best of you.

I don’t have “Jesusphobia” I dismiss ALL religions equally, its just the hypocracy thats amusing

notsofast said:
You and other libs have beaten that straw man into the ground. I have read not one comment where someone said they didn’t have a right to build a mosque there. The question is sensitivity.

I’m not buying that anymore. I understood that when the whole thing first came up. Now, after weeks of day after day of accusations on TV and angry protests still going on weeks later, it’s not about asking them to be sensitive.

BTW, you need to get a better copy of the Constitution , better yet, READ it. It says nothing about the location of places of worship.
no it doesn’t. But the objection isn’t about a place of worship being built there from any relgion is it.? It’s only about one religion. That makes it a first amendment issue.

MM, yes, the Koran does mention Jesus and it also mentions Moses both of whom are revered in Islam as God’s messengers.

I think not.
I’m not sure why you even mentioned this. Not relevant to this discussion. This type of comment, demonstrates it’s not about asking fellow Americans to be sensitive. It only applies to Muslims. You can check your dictionary for what that is.

In light of the post I just made regarding Muslim families who lost loved ones at ground zero, and everything else that’s been going on for weeks now I think the call for sensitivity has completely reversed. It now falls on those who want to show there fellow Americans they don’t support bigotry to demonstrate it by supporting Park 51.

jooce81 said:
shall we go on?

Answer the question? Why did you lie when you said they ““calls for the death of anyone who isn’t associated with them.” You made the claim.

This isn’t about the other crazy crap they do- you couldn’t just condemn them for what they do, you found it necessary to lie about them.

I find that kind of pathological need to lie fasinating.

Please explain your need to do so.

And, show where I gave ‘em a free pass.

Yes Canada has less crime, Cuba has better (easier access for all of it’s citizens and they live longer) health care. and Bush said to the CIA briefer “go on now, you have covered you ass” when he was told that Bin Laden wanted to attack the USA. The adults were in charge that is why the USA is in such good shape now?

CosmosDan said:
That makes it a first amendment issue.

Wrong!

Nope! nada! Zip! Nil! No such thing!

This is the same guy who touted the superiority of the Cuban healthcare system. Of course he didn’t include any of this footage in his documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25_RgM1jHeo

notsofast said:
Answer the question? Why did you lie when you said they ““calls for the death of anyone who isn’t associated with them.” You made the claim.

This isn’t about the other crazy crap they do- you couldn’t just condemn them for what they do, you found it necessary to lie about them.

I find that kind of pathological need to lie fasinating.

Please explain your need to do so.

And, show where I gave ‘em a free pass.

I think the various videos show that, but if your too thick headed to even realize it, theres really no helping you brother

CosmosDan said:
It now falls on those who want to show there fellow Americans they don’t support bigotry to demonstrate it by supporting Park 51.

Nice pathetic lib talking point!

notsofast said:
Who have they killed?

I’ll wait!

So blaming innocent people for things is okay , providing the blame is somehow associated with a killer?

neat standard you have there

jooce81 said:
I think the various videos show that, but if your too thick headed to even realize it, theres really no helping you brother

Still can’t answer.

Not surprised. You guys are a dime a dozen. Ya just make it up.

notsofast said:
Wrong!

Nope! nada! Zip! Nil! No such thing!

ok give us YOUR understanding of the constitution.. since all you’ve contributed is 1 or 2 words here and there..

CosmosDan said:
So blaming innocent people for things is okay , providing the blame is somehow associated with a killer?

neat standard you have there

You really are sick.

So people carrying despicable signs and doing despicable legal acts is the equivalent of murder?

You have a great liberal mind!

Mr.Papshmer said:
True, however, take it a bit further. If, in a a muslim theocracy, any religious symbols outside of islam are outlawed, what does that tell you about islam? The Saudi monarchy is certainly not considered by the mainstream to be “radical”, yet have zero tolerance for anything non-muslim. This is the left’s favorite new victim group. Congratulations. They play you like little marionettes, and would eliminate you if they could.

It only tells you about how the leaders of that particular country practice Islam, History shows examples of Christians, Jews and Muslims flourishing together. One example. Cordoba Spain.

This mosque controversy really doesn’t mean that much to me, I don’t care that much where the thing is built, if it is or is not built, etc. Do I think it is being proposed to be built to provoke more than it is to build bridges? Pretty much, yeah. But again, I don’t care that much.

What does bother me is when people, as some on this thread have, try to compare Islam and the radical element to Christianity or other religions, and say “all religions have radicals!” Sure they do, but the Muslim world truly has the market cornered on radicalism. It is not even close. In Pakistan, for example, it is estimated that there are over 40,000 madrassas that teach close to 2,000,000 male students each year. These young boys are taught that the west, in particular the U.S., are to be despised and learn about the glories of jihad and martyrdom. Teachers speak with pride of Mullah Omar, Bin Laden and their followers as heros, almost God like. Young boys are taught intolerance and hate at a very, very, very young age.

There are far, far, far, far more Muslims in other countries that revel in the thought of dead Americans than many on here would be willing to admit. Does anyone recall footage from the Palestinian territories when news of the twin towers in flames, crumbling down upon thousands of dead American bodies hit? There were mass celebrations, people parading in the streets. Please, fools, do not compare other religions to Islam when it comes to violence and hatred.

jooce81 said:
ok give us YOUR understanding of the constitution.. since all you’ve contributed is 1 or 2 words here and there..

No, I will let YOU explain the 1st. Amendment- there are over 100 mosques in NYC alone. How is their freedom of speech being violated? They can build at the site they want- how is that a violation of the Constitution?

notsofast said:
You really are sick.

So people carrying despicable signs and doing despicable legal acts is the equivalent of murder?

You have a great liberal mind!

why not, in your thinking every muslim is a terrorist, all 1.5 billion muslims are the same as the 13 assholes who flew planes into building, the same as the few thousand scumbags who train in the desert.. you play the guilt by association card when its convienent

I’m confused; what the heck was Peter Griffin doing on CNN?!

notsofast said:
They can build at the site they want-

THERE YOU GO, you said it, discussion over “They can build at the site they want”

/thread

jooce81 said:
why not, in your thinking every muslim is a terrorist,

Prove it! You just lied again.

jooce81 said:
HERE YOU GO, you said it, discussion over “They can build at the site they want”

How is that a violation of the Constitution?

Answer it

notsofast said:
You and other libs have beaten that straw man into the ground. I have read not one comment where someone said they didn’t have a right to build a mosque there. The question is sensitivity.

Ahhhhhhhh, jooce81- I said that in my first comment.

Tsk, tsk- you are really something, child.

notsofast said:
Nice pathetic lib talking point!

Nice non response.

Tell me how it’s just to tell Muslim American families who lost loved ones at ground zero , that their religion makes them ineligible to have a community center 2 blocks away with a place to pray for lost loved ones.

notsofast said:
How is that a violation of the Constitution?

Answer it

oh geez,. thats the point… seriously are you in like 4th grade. the point is thay CAN build it where ever they want. they dont have to be sensitive to anyone, they own the land they can put in a strip joint if they want. go back and read, you missed the entire point

the education system of this country is seriously fucked up, put the xbox controller down, turn off madden and open a book man

Build it anywhere you like, just so long as you build a second one inside Newt Gingrich’s big mouth.

CosmosDan said:
Tell me how it’s just to tell Muslim American families who lost loved ones at ground zero , that their religion makes them ineligible to have a community center 2 blocks away with a place to pray for lost loved ones.

Now you sound like poor jooce81.

Who said they didn’t have a right to build a mosque there?

They have just as much a right to build a mosque there as I have to say it is insensitive and counterproductive to the stated goals of the Imam without being called a bigot or Islamophobe!

jooce81 said:
the education system of this country is seriously fucked up, put the xbox controller down, turn off madden and open a book man

I agree. Just read your sophomoric comments.

jooce81 said:
you missed the entire point

If you would wear a hat , your would hide your point.

BTW, you DID lie!

well some of us have to work in the morning… goodnight NSF you’ve been a good sparring partner, just remember no more drinking the bong water..k?

nite

jooce81 said:
well some of us have to work in the morning… goodnight NSF you’ve been a good sparring partner, just remember no more drinking the bong water..k?

nite

nite

CosmosDan said:
no it doesn’t. But the objection isn’t about a place of worship being built there from any relgion is it.? It’s only about one religion. That makes it a first amendment issue.

The First Amendment prevents the government from censoring free expression. All of this expression, for and against is protected from government interference by the First Amendment. Only the government can violate First Amendment rights. What part of this do you not understand?

The level of ignorance of Constitutional principles never ceases to amaze me. We’ve been having this very conversation for over a month and still we have people who utterly fail to understand this simple sentence:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

We can all hoot and holler all we like about anything we like, and we can hoot and holler at each other if we care to. We’ve been doing it for ages. It’s the American Way.

Also, why is anyone wasting their time trying to pound sense into this notsofast character? He’s obviously just another rightwing troll who can’t be bothered with facts. You might as well try teaching a brick math.

CosmosDan said:
It only tells you about how the leaders of that particular country practice Islam, History shows examples of Christians, Jews and Muslims flourishing together. One example. Cordoba Spain.

All in the past, man. When I was a young man, Beirut was a vacation paradise. But look what happens when a religion is take over by radicalism. Not just pockets here and there, those who aren’t radical are afraid to speak out against those who are. Some other clown was trying to introduce the crusades as an example of Christian atrocities, but Christians seem to have learned moderation in the last five hundred years or so. Islam, on the other hand had a pretty good run, but their religion is now just a hateful and violent political system.

Terry Canaan said:
Also, why is anyone wasting their time trying to pound sense into this notsofast character? He’s obviously just another rightwing troll who can’t be bothered with facts. You might as well try teaching a brick math.

LOL

Your angry because your mother went though your underwear last night———————–while you were still in ‘em!

LOL

Try again!

jooce81 said:
why not, in your thinking every muslim is a terrorist, all 1.5 billion muslims are the same as the 13 assholes who flew planes into building, the same as the few thousand scumbags who train in the desert.. you play the guilt by association card when its convienent

As I mentioned in the other comments I just posted, I don’t give two shits about this mosque. I really do not think it is being built to build bridges, but again it is not a huge issue to me personally.

However, I do need to correct your comment that radical Islam is only “13 assholes who flew planes into buildings, and a few thousand scumbags who train in the desert.”

Again –
In Pakistan it is estimated that there are over 40,000 madrassas that teach close to 2,000,000 male students each year. These young boys are taught that the west, in particular the U.S., are to be despised and learn about the glories of jihad and martyrdom. Teachers speak with pride of Mullah Omar, Bin Laden and their followers as heros, almost God like. Young boys are taught intolerance and hate at a very, very, very young age.

There are far, far, far, far more Muslims in other countries that revel in the thought of dead Americans than many on here would be willing to admit. Do you recall footage from the Palestinian territories when news of the twin towers in flames, crumbling down upon thousands of dead American bodies hit? There were mass celebrations, people parading in the streets. Not a few people, THOUSANDS, men, women, young, old.

Terry Canaan said:
He’s obviously just another rightwing troll who can’t be bothered with facts.

List the facts, big libby!

jooce81 said:
the education system of this country is seriously fucked up, put the xbox controller down, turn off madden and open a book man

That is just chock full of irony.

notsofast said:
Show where I gave ‘em a free pass.

I’ll wait. try not to lie this time.

Republicans always lie. They’re just better at covering it up. We do not torture. Valarie Plame case. Iraq war- weapons of WMD. Death panels. 9/11 attacks. McCain illegitimate daughter.

Yoda002 said:
Yoda002 says:
September 13, 2010 at 11:01 pm Yoda002(Quote)

Still can’t answer my question , can ya?

You just tried to change the subject1

And which dwarf are you?

notsofast said:
You really are sick.

So people carrying despicable signs and doing despicable legal acts is the equivalent of murder?

You have a great liberal mind!

I actually didn’t say anything remotely like that.

The point is that blaming innocent members of a religion for the horrendous acts of other members they have no control over, is very very wrong.

But just so you know. According to Jesus , that guy in the Bible, spewing hate is the same as murder.
Mat 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

CosmosDan said:
CosmosDan says:
September 13, 2010 at 11:04 pm CosmosDan(Quote)

Now you are just being silly.

try again, my God!

And according to the Koran??

[5:32] Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.

CosmosDan said:
But just so you know. According to Jesus , that guy in the Bible, spewing hate is the same as murder.

Do you strive to live your life according to Christian doctrine?

Mr.Papshmer said:
All in the past, man. When I was a young man, Beirut was a vacation paradise. But look what happens when a religion is take over by radicalism. Not just pockets here and there, those who aren’t radical are afraid to speak out against those who are. Some other clown was trying to introduce the crusades as an example of Christian atrocities, but Christians seem to have learned moderation in the last five hundred years or so. Islam, on the other hand had a pretty good run, but their religion is now just a hateful and violent political system.

Fair enough. Lets keep it in current affairs. Does that mean we should now pass judgment on our own citizens because they belong to the same religion? Doesn’t the bigotry that labels all Muslims as the same or similar to the ones who hate us become a se;f fulfilling prophecy?

CosmosDan said:
But just so you know. According to Jesus , that guy in the Bible, spewing hate is the same as murder.
Mat 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

Nice lie.

He said who is angry with his brother will be in danger of judgment. HE DID NOT SAY THAT MURDER AND ANGER WERE EQUAL OR THE SAME!

My God, have you no common sense or decency?

Yoda002 said:
Republicans always lie. They’re just better at covering it up.

This is funny enough by itself. It’s like saying “Republicans are liars, and Democrats tell the truth.” You had me in stitches with that by itself, but then comes your list…….

Yoda002 said:
We do not torture. Valarie Plame case. Iraq war- weapons of WMD. Death panels………… 9/11 attacks………… McCain illegitimate daughter.

No one gives two shits about most of that stuff. Iraq/WMD is a huge deal, but a whole boatload of Democrats also supported the invasion and said Hussein had WMD. BUT, the gem in your list is 9/11 attacks. Are you one of those tools that think GW Bush was responsible for 9/11?? Please, tell me, I need to laugh my ass off one more time before I go to bed.

Mr.Papshmer said:
Do you strive to live your life according to Christian doctrine?

No. I don’t think Christian doctrine really reflects what Jesus taught, but that’s not relevant to this discussion.

The point was that according to the teachings of their own savior Westboro Baptists are indeed murderers.
Besides that I was just yanking his chain.

Remember Folks ;

When Liberals protest/rally/take a stand/ it’s—ACTIVISM .

When Conservatives do so it’s —HATRED

notsofast said:
Nice lie.

He said who is angry with his brother will be in danger of judgment. HE DID NOT SAY THAT MURDER AND ANGER WERE EQUAL OR THE SAME!

My God, have you no common sense or decency?

You read the words I posted right? He said murder was in danger of judgment too. Forget it. It’s irrelevant.

notsofast said:
Now you are just being silly.

try again, my God!

I think your quote machine broke

CosmosDan said:
Does that mean we should now pass judgment on our own citizens because they belong to the same religion?

When that goober Fred Phelps started crashing funerals with his “God hates Fags” banners, Christians were about unanimous in their opposition to his hateful messages. Most Christians are pro-life, yet when some psycho clown bombs an abortion clinic in the south, Christians come out by the millions to denounce it.

To answer your question, yes, I have zero problem indicting islam as a whole. Until I see their people rise up in opposition to their radicals, it’s just a hateful philosophy, as far as I’m concerned. I’m not talking about a few scattered people who get death threats the moment they speak out, I’m talking islam as a whole.

Andy Lamb said:
This mosque controversy really doesn’t mean that much to me, I don’t care that much where the thing is built, if it is or is not built, etc. Do I think it is being proposed to be built to provoke more than it is to build bridges? Pretty much, yeah. But again, I don’t care that much.

What does bother me is when people, as some on this thread have, try to compare Islam and the radical element to Christianity or other religions, and say “all religions have radicals!” Sure they do, but the Muslim world truly has the market cornered on radicalism. It is not even close. In Pakistan, for example, it is estimated that there are over 40,000 madrassas that teach close to 2,000,000 male students each year. These young boys are taught that the west, in particular the U.S., are to be despised and learn about the glories of jihad and martyrdom. Teachers speak with pride of Mullah Omar, Bin Laden and their followers as heros, almost God like. Young boys are taught intolerance and hate at a very, very, very young age.

There are far, far, far, far more Muslims in other countries that revel in the thought of dead Americans than many on here would be willing to admit. Does anyone recall footage from the Palestinian territories when news of the twin towers in flames, crumbling down upon thousands of dead American bodies hit? There were mass celebrations, people parading in the streets. Please, fools, do not compare other religions to Islam when it comes to violence and hatred.

You’re right about this. The comparison is made in an attempt to make the point that associating innocent members of a religion for the heinous acts of other members and treating them as if they are somehow partially to blame, is the wrong thing to do. The point is correct, but perhaps the using Christianity as an example isn’t effective.

Mr.Papshmer said:
When that goober Fred Phelps started crashing funerals with his “God hates Fags” banners, Christians were about unanimous in their opposition to his hateful messages.

And the people who went out and did something about his expression with their own expression, the Patriot Guard Riders, are overwhelmingly conservative.

Mr.Papshmer said:
When that goober Fred Phelps started crashing funerals with his “God hates Fags” banners, Christians were about unanimous in their opposition to his hateful messages. Most Christians are pro-life, yet when some psycho clown bombs an abortion clinic in the south, Christians come out by the millions to denounce it.

To answer your question, yes, I have zero problem indicting islam as a whole. Until I see their people rise up in opposition to their radicals, it’s just a hateful philosophy, as far as I’m concerned. I’m not talking about a few scattered people who get death threats the moment they speak out, I’m talking islam as a whole.

So what do you expect American citizens who are Muslims to do. Once they’ve condemned terrorism and said it’s against their vision of Islam, what else should they do as an average working family?

Andy Lamb said:
This is funny enough by itself. It’s like saying “Republicans are liars, and Democrats tell the truth.” You had me in stitches with that by itself, but then comes your list…….

No one gives two shits about most of that stuff. Iraq/WMD is a huge deal, but a whole boatload of Democrats also supported the invasion and said Hussein had WMD. BUT, the gem in your list is 9/11 attacks. Are you one of those tools that think GW Bush was responsible for 9/11?? Please, tell me, I need to laugh my ass off one more time before I go to bed.

I will bite -I love playing with Republicans
He lied about getting the July 2001 intelligence briefing “Osama bin Laden poised to launch attack against US interest or facilities” and he lied about turning over important information to the 9/11 commission and what his relationship was to the Osama bin Laden family. Iraq had something to do with 9/11. Al Qaeda was in Iraq

I would recommend watching the Fahrenheit 9/11 movie you may learn something.

Yoda002 said:
I would recommend watching the Fahrenheit 9/11 movie you may learn something.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Wait a sec…. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Seriously man, you’re a goober.

I wonder if Michael Moore is ashamed of all the money he made as a Capitalist.

Yoda002 said:
Fahrenheit 9/11

Come on. Everyone knows that Fahrenheit 9/11 was not an honest attempt to portray the events.

I don’t like to say “everyone”, “always”, “never”, etc., but it seems valid here.

Mr B said:
I wonder if Michael Moore is ashamed of all the money he made as a Capitalist.

No, liberlas don’t have “inconsistency” neurons (or whatever). It doesn’t cross their minds much.

As for Moore, he gets a pass because, to them, he is using the evil capitalism against it.

CosmosDan said:
So what do you expect American citizens who are Muslims to do. Once they’ve condemned terrorism and said it’s against their vision of Islam, what else should they do as an average working family?

But that’s the problem. Where are the protests from so-called moderate Muslims? I’ve seen a few on the news who denounce the Victory Mosque, but that’s it.

And when they do their terrorism, many seem to celebrate.

What about the threats? They keep threatening people. Where are the moderates?

Mr.Papshmer said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Wait a sec…. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Seriously man, you’re a goober.

You can call me a goober, but the sad fact is a lot of those things stated in the movie came true. A lot of US, Allied soldiers and innocent Iraq’s lost their lives based on a lie. PEACE

Anderson did a pretty limp interview with Moore tonight on AC360. Moore stepped back his statement about wanting to build a mosque on Ground Zero. He said he was just “making a point”. He went on to say he doesn’t want another “shrine to commerce” built on Ground Zero, he wants a “peace park”. Moore idiotically also compared MLK’s march to Cicero, which never happened, Jackson marched in Cicero, to the building of the mosque near Ground Zero.

Moore is also uninformed if he thinks that those that oppose the building of the mosque near Ground Zero are illiterate or bigots. Most people I know that are against the building of the mosque/cultural center have a college education and are Independents or former Democrats. He better look at those that the Dems lined up to vote for Obama. I’d like to see the average IQ of that bunch.

libra blue said:
He better look at those that the Dems lined up to vote for Obama. I’d like to see the average IQ of that bunch

Yes, I agree with your post. But focusing on what i quoted, It’s not that Obama voters are dumb, it’s that they are wrong. A lot of smart people are wrong. “Smart” doesn’t mean someone is on the right track.

Find some time and watch the talk “How Modern Liberals Think” and you’ll see why they come up with the things they do and why they make so little sense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c

It’s VERY good, but make sure you watch the whole thing, including the Q&A at the end.

Not only is he a lousy director of lousy films, he’s a sociopath.

“Slavery, killing Indians, women not voting”………. hmmm sounds like Islam to me.

This is one naive puppy or just a good old fashioned capitalist attention whore.

Mr B said:
I wonder if Michael Moore is ashamed of all the money he made as a Capitalist.

Nah, I gotta figure he’s just bitter because he’s fat and ugly and no amount of money can change that so the only way he can get his jollies for free is making other people as miserable as possible. Truth be told, I really do feel sorry for Mr. Moore.

CosmosDan said:
So what do you expect American citizens who are Muslims to do.

I expect them to hold rallies where they openly denounce Islamic terrorists by NAME and their sympathizers by NAME, and DEMAND of Imam Rauf that he CANCEL the construction of the GZ mosque. UNTIL that happens, NO Muslim will have any credibility with me–they will just continue being a part of the problem.

What ever happen to the great liberal mantra of “separation of church and state”. If this was a Christian church that is all we would be hearing. Bullsh** from Micheal Moore.

hanoisteve said:
Yes Canada has less crime, Cuba has better (easier access for all of it’s citizens and they live longer) health care. and Bush said to the CIA briefer “go on now, you have covered you ass” when he was told that Bin Laden wanted to attack the USA. The adults were in charge that is why the USA is in such good shape now?

Been on the planet long, have you?

Publius219 said:
The Westboro Baptist Church celebrates the death of American soldiers. This is representative of a peaceful religion? I think not.

It’s representative of a microscopically small minority of whom are strenuously admonished by other Christians and especially other Baptists.

Now, please tell us how strenuous is the damning of ALL Islamic terrorist groups, ALL terrorist acts perpetrated by Islamic terrorist groups by Islam? Please tell us how many rallies attended by thousands of Muslims to denounce the terrorist acts by Islamic terrorist groups have been held ANYWHERE in the world? Please tell us how many rallies attended by thousands of Muslims to denounce Islamic terrorists have been held in the US? Please tell us how many Muslims have made it clear that they would NEVER expect ANYONE who does not want to live under Shariah law to be free of its grips?

All added up, you’ve got ZERO.

Now, by the number of thumbs up you will see on my comments, you will know how many people who visit this site join me in DENOUNCING those who sully with their presence and their comments in celebration of the deaths of US soldiers.

So, as you will see, not every person who calls themselves Christians or Jews are worthy of the title, but I will guarantee you that an overwhelming majority are folks who are, through the guidance of God, trying to do the best they can.

@Alz, “Yes, I agree with your post.”

Thanks for the link. I agree there are educated people on both sides, but of course they both “think” they are right. To think you are right and to prove you are right are two different things and that is what is missing from the conversation on both sides. If either side would back up their accusations with facts people would have more faith in the political system, and if journalists would demand the facts from politicians, people would have more faith in the media, but they won’t because the truth is not always entertaining and does not bring in ratings.

However, I do truly believe that these new voters, who never cared about voting before, were brainwashed into thinking Obama is the one who will bring them out of the “wilderness” by those so-called intelligent individuals on the left. For instance, a blue-collar relative of mine, who never had an interest in politics before, has his pre-school kids chanting Obama’s name.

I didn’t agree with everything Sayet says on this video, but some of what he says makes sense. I agree that some Democrats think that the only way to eliminate discrimination is to allow ourselves to become stupid. The Democrats label anyone a bigot that does not agree with them, so now the word bigot is meaningless. They are also willing to throw anyone under the bus, even from their own party, if they don’t toe the party line. Look at what happened to Bill Clinton. That is what I am afraid is happening with the Tea Party. They are in danger of losing seats because they are only supporting candidates with strict conservative views and that is a mistake.

As I said earlier, if Moore had the balls to backup his talk about freedom and human rights, he would take his crusade, his bullhorn, and his camera to Iran or some other Islamic country and start preaching about the rights of homosexuals, which I support, and women’s rights, which I also support. I wonder how long he would last?

America is not perfect, but it is better than anything else out there.

If you are looking for the Michael Moore interview on the AC360 transcript for last night be aware that they have labeled Moore’s responses as Michael “Myers”.

Isn’t that the lunatic murderer in “Halloween”?

Can anyone verify whether or not there was in mosque in the South Tower on the 17th floor?

I used to respect Michel Moore. He is nothing more than a liberal Glenn Beck. Since he has a multi- million dollar mansion, wearing a raggedy t-shirt and standing in front of a run down house to be interviewed is pure BS. He is a total self-promoting fake.

libra blue said:
Thanks for the link. I agree there are educated people on both sides, but of course they both “think” they are right. To think you are right and to prove you are right are two different things and that is what is missing from the conversation on both sides. If either side would back up their accusations with facts people would have more faith in the political system, and if journalists would demand the facts from politicians, people would have more faith in the media, but they won’t because the truth is not always entertaining and does not bring in ratings.

The issue is not facts. The issue is belief systems. Modern Liberals have a different belief system as compared to more traditional people.

Normal people measure success as when things are better or can get better. Modern Liberals measure success as when things are “equal”. It’s a huge difference.

So the problems are very deep and normal reason doesn’t work with liberals. This is why our logic bounces off them.. We’re out there trying to make things better and they hate it!

Watch that video I mentioned.

Oh hey Moore says something considered liberal. I am so shocked.

“Normal people measure success as when things are better or can get better. Modern Liberals measure success as when things are “equal”. It’s a huge difference.”

Modern Republicans only talk about current and future disasters. Plans for a better future or solutions for current problems are only useful for being attacked to prove disaster is inevitable. The best way to campaign is to literally scare people witless.

Moore is running out of his 15 minutes of fame.

Andy Lamb said:

In Pakistan it is estimated that there are over 40,000 madrassas that teach close to 2,000,000 male students each year. These young boys are taught that the west, in particular the U.S., are to be despised and learn about the glories of jihad and martyrdom. Teachers speak with pride of Mullah Omar, Bin Laden and their followers as heros, almost God like. Young boys are taught intolerance and hate at a very, very, very young age.

There are far, far, far, far more Muslims in other countries that revel in the thought of dead Americans than many on here would be willing to admit. Do you recall footage from the Palestinian territories when news of the twin towers in flames, crumbling down upon thousands of dead American bodies hit? There were mass celebrations, people parading in the streets. Not a few people, THOUSANDS, men, women, young, old.

May I ask how you know what these boys in Madrassas are being taught?

Moore’s new diet book is out . He recommends chewing each bite of food at least once . Big Eddie don’t mean no offense .

pyrope said:
I expect them to hold rallies where they openly denounce Islamic terrorists by NAME and their sympathizers by NAME, and DEMAND of Imam Rauf that he CANCEL the construction of the GZ mosque. UNTIL that happens, NO Muslim will have any credibility with me–they will just continue being a part of the problem.

Why? Why by name? How is that better than denouncing terrorism and the killing of innocents? If they truly believe that the killing of innocents is wrong could you understand that they might also see our activities in Iraq and Afghanistan or Israel’s actions in the Palestine as also the killing of innocents.

Why must they agree with you that Cordoba house should be moved? Lot’s of decent American citizens disagree with you on that including families of 9/11 victims.
Earlier in this thread I posted a link to an article about American Muslims who lost loved ones at GZ. How is it just, that these American citizens who also mourn for family members who were victims of a terrorist attack. are told they can’t have a place of prayer 2 blocks from ground zero? How is it just that the families of Muslim Americans who have died serving in our armed forces are told they can’t pray 2 blocks from ground zero?
{but 4 blocks is apparently okay}

Not only that, to all of you who keep pointing out what a violent religion Islam is and that hatred toward America is so widespread, and no moderate Muslims are condemning terrorism enough, if all that is true, why are we still over there spending billions, and losing American lives to try and help two nations of Muslims? I understand going to Afghanistan to kick some ass after 9/11, but why are we still there, and why did we stay? Why not just kick ass in a retaliatory way, and leave them to think about what happens when they attack America?
If Islam is a violent religion and predominantly teaches “Death to America” then why would we give a rats ass about liberating Muslims from a Muslim dictator? Isn’t it better for us if our enemies fight each other?
The contradiction in reasoning just blows me away.
The reasoning before was” we’re fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here,” and George was right and has kept us safe because we haven’t had a terrorist attack here in a years” Now the Times Square incident and the Fort Hood shootings are pointed to to justify condemning Islam as a whole.

The contradiction in logic and reasoning just blows my mind. Maybe we should look at how much blind partisanship hinders our ability to think clearly.

libra blue said:

Moore is also uninformed if he thinks that those that oppose the building of the mosque near Ground Zero are illiterate or bigots. Most people I know that are against the building of the mosque/cultural center have a college education and are Independents or former Democrats. He better look at those that the Dems lined up to vote for Obama. I’d like to see the average IQ of that bunch.

Democrats can also be bigots , and well educated people can also be bigots.

If you watch the Daily show clip that just posted on this site you’ll see JS also pointing out how logic and reason is abandoned because of partisan agendas.

if Michael Moore had his way with this “Islamic Culture Center” to be built right on top of ground zero, it’ll raise more controversy and tensions rather this be built two blocks from ground zero. it will not only be a slap in the face to the families who lost loved ones that day, it’ll also be a victory for the radical muslims who attacked us that day and tell them that America is a weak nation and will appease to radicals, even though the radicals want to destroy America. that insanity is like saying “How about I kill myself just to save you time from killing me and you won’t feel guilty about that”, who on God’s given Earth think that is logical?! Michael Moore will only promote the further destruction of America with policies that not only make no sense, but also are really dangerous. he is saying the only way to save a city from being destroyed is to burn it to the ground and not restoring the city at all, if a city is destroyed, it’s destroyed and a city cannot exist if it is not rebuild to it’s original foundations. Michael Moore wants to burn this shining city to the ground so that he can build a much darker city saying that dark city is “The Shining City”, it makes no sense, plus he only cares about himself and would care less if the human race is extinct. the mosque being built ON Ground Zero will make problems much worse than they are. this whole debate is not about the right of the mosque being built, its about is it right or wrong for the mosque being built two blocks from ground zero with out the permission of the families who lost loved one 9/11, you can’t respect the dead by insulting them and having the mosque being built right on ground zero is in fact a major insult to America

“Why do you hate America?”

—Oh I see, so when people like you where comparing Bush to Hitler you were loving America, but when people like me state 7 points about Islam you can’t deny, we are hating America.

“Why don’t you believe in American exceptionalism? Why must you compare America with Saudi Arabia? If we are truly the greatest country on Earth (which, for the record, I believe we are), then our standards shouldn’t be subject to change based on what happens in other (lesser) countries.”

—-Being the greatest country on earth doesn’t mean we have to support building a mosque on ground zero or two blocks away anymore than black people have to support Klan parades in their neighborhoods. This isn’t about rights, this is about WISDOM. We must protest the mosque because of what that mosque represents.

“Did you burn the flag already today or do you save that for before bed?”

—-No, it’s your Muslims and liberal friends that like burning old glory.

CosmosDan said:
So what do you expect American citizens who are Muslims to do. Once they’ve condemned terrorism and said it’s against their vision of Islam, what else should they do as an average working family?

At this point, and I know it’s going to be called racism/bigotry to say so, but it’s going to take more than just saying “Hey, that’s not us.” (and I’m not religious at all, so please, anyone here, do not try to use the “BUT CHRISTIANS!!!” argument against what I’m saying). The “moderate” Muslims are going to pretty much have to say that they’ll stand up AGAINST the radicals when the nation is threatened or attacked, and be able to assure that non-Muslims will NOT be expected to live under Sharia(h), in order to convince a lot of people out there.

Even then, you’re going to have a lot of people who won’t accept it and will pull out the taqiyya card.

In the end, it’s going to take time and personal experience before people are going to know whether American Muslims are going to stand with their Country first, or with Radicals of their own religion first.

greg454 says:

I’ll make the Muslims a deal, yes, we can have a Mosque on ground zero if:
1. The Christians/Catholics get to build churches in Saudi Arabia with giant crosses, including one next to Mecca.
4. Christians shall be free to proselytize in Muslim countries (a privilege Muslims enjoy all over the western world).
When the Muslim world can do all that, I’ll be fine with a mosque on ground zero. Until then, no mosque, no way!

sorry – If you want to argue tolerance in Muslim countries (Mecca, Saudia Arabia) you need to move to a muslim country. We live in the wonderful free UNITED STATES.

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bug, we don’t need to move to Saudi Arabia. Muslims here believe the same things as the ones there. And while the left will gladly bash away at any perceived intolerance in Christianity, such as views on homosexuality, or women’s rights, they’ll gladly ignore that Islam is one of the most intolerant religions on earth. That kid glove treatment is as much if not more irksome than the building of the mosque.

“sorry – If you want to argue tolerance in Muslim countries (Mecca, Saudia Arabia) you need to move to a muslim country. We live in the wonderful free UNITED STATES.”

—-Since the entire world loves bitching about the USA I don’t see why I shouldn’t return the favor. Besides, as an American I have the right to criticize Islam and the building of mosques where they don’t belong.

writer says:

bug, we don’t need to move to Saudi Arabia. Muslims here believe the same things as the ones there. And while the left will gladly bash away at any perceived intolerance in Christianity, such as views on homosexuality, or women’s rights, they’ll gladly ignore that Islam is one of the most intolerant religions on earth. That kid glove treatment is as much if not more irksome than the building of the mosque.

UNDERSTAND
if you want to argue that lefties suck – ok – probably MANY things to agree upon there
I was reading comments about whether or not a Mosque should be built upon US soil

greg454 says:

—-Since the entire world loves bitching about the USA I don’t see why I shouldn’t return the favor. Besides, as an American I have the right to criticize Islam and the building of mosques where they don’t belong.

I believe that was my point – we are free to agree or disagree HERE
but I believe YOUR point is you can BITCH about other COUNTRIES
not whether we can build a Church, or MCDONALDS, or ….
in another country

HANOISTEVE “Cauba has better (easier acces for all it’s citizens) health care”.Thats y Castro had a specialist flown in from Spain when he needed hart surgery a while back ,thees are the comments you expect frome some one ho admires communist Vietnam. You (Hanoisteve) should go to Cuba or Vietnam live there and DEFEND THE REVOLUTION.

“not whether we can build a Church, or MCDONALDS, or ….
in another country”

—Why not? Imam Rauf is threatening us with terrorism if we don’t build the ground zero mosque, Muslims in foreign countries are protesting against us, Christians in Indonesia got beat up,
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/09/12/assailants-stab-beat-christian-worshippers-outside-indonesias-capital/

So, if the entire world is going to tell us what to do, why not return the favor? The fact is that Muslims don’t practice the tolerance they preach.

bug, I’ve never said the Muslims don’t have a right to build the mosque. When anyone buys a piece of property, they have the right to do whatever they want with it. (considering zoning and building codes, of course) While I think building the mosque near ground zero shows some insensitivity, they have every right to do it. But when it comes to religion, I believe South Park had it right. If you’re going to mock one, mock them all. Don’t treat some of them with kid gloves out of political correctness.

Kitsune said:
At this point, and I know it’s going to be called racism/bigotry to say so, but it’s going to take more than just saying “Hey, that’s not us.” (and I’m not religious at all, so please, anyone here, do not try to use the “BUT CHRISTIANS!!!” argument against what I’m saying). The “moderate” Muslims are going to pretty much have to say that they’ll stand up AGAINST the radicals when the nation is threatened or attacked, and be able to assure that non-Muslims will NOT be expected to live under Sharia(h), in order to convince a lot of people out there. Even then, you’re going to have a lot of people who won’t accept it and will pull out the taqiyya card. In the end, it’s going to take time and personal experience before people are going to know whether American Muslims are going to stand with their Country first, or with Radicals of their own religion first.

Could someone please enlighten me as to “who” these people are that are going to “make us live under Sharia law”?

Please, this is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. First off they are a minority in this country. How do we get from one site of worship to all of a sudden the US being and Islamic Theocracy….I call BULLSHIT!

Kitsune said:
At this point, and I know it’s going to be called racism/bigotry to say so, but it’s going to take more than just saying “Hey, that’s not us.” The “moderate” Muslims are going to pretty much have to say that they’ll stand up AGAINST the radicals when the nation is threatened or attacked, and be able to assure that non-Muslims will NOT be expected to live under Sharia(h), in order to convince a lot of people out there.

I agree but I wonder if that will be accepted. Muslim Americans die in our armed forces. I posted an article about the Muslim Americans who lost family members at GZ. Look at the latest Jon Stewart post here. Imam Rauf {and others}has condemned terrorism repeatedly. Look at the latest Jon Stewart link here. He points out that Imam Rauf promises to reveal funding, to not take funding from terrorist organizations, condemns terrorism again, and acknowledges that Hamas has committed terrorist acts, but when he uses language similar to the warnings of our own Gen Patreus, it’s described as threats. What utter bullshit. We have to stop letting extreme partisanship from letting us look at serious issues with some logic and reason.
Muslims condemn terrorism , but as soon as they exercise the same free speech we celebrate and try to point out that we’ve made mistakes in the Middle East , as any American might, then they stop being Americans in peoples eyes and become those dirty Muslims again. We seem okay with major media outlets blatantly fanning the fires of bigotry and refuse to condemn , or at least turn of, the duplicitous crap they spew.

In the end, it’s going to take time and personal experience before people are going to know whether American Muslims are going to stand with their Country first, or with Radicals of their own religion first. I think that’s reasonable but we as Americans should also be condemning blatant bigotry aimed at Muslim American citizens. The Mosque proposed in TN has nothing to do with terrorism, and yet the same organization that started pushing the GZM story is promoting that.

It’s unreasonable to think Muslim Americans must go the extra mile to prove loyalty while we aren’t required to live by the principles we keep spouting.

SpineCrusher said:
Could someone please enlighten me as to “who” these people are that are going to “make us live under Sharia law”?

Please, this is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. First off they are a minority in this country. How do we get from one site of worship to all of a sudden the US being and Islamic Theocracy….I call BULLSHIT!

It is complete and utter bullshit slung by the fear mongers. I’m sure we’ve had 200+ years of fundamentalist Christians trying to impose their moral beliefs on us and so far they have failed. They have far. far more numbers than Muslims have.
In fact I think over time rigid fundamentalists have faded in number. I expect the same thing to happen as Muslims spend more time in the west, generation after generation.

WITER—-I see no difference in those protesting the building of the Mosqe/comunity center and those protesting the builing of a wall Mart,both sets of protesters exercising there right.

writer said:
bug, we don’t need to move to Saudi Arabia. Muslims here believe the same things as the ones there. And while the left will gladly bash away at any perceived intolerance in Christianity, such as views on homosexuality, or women’s rights, they’ll gladly ignore that Islam is one of the most intolerant religions on earth. That kid glove treatment is as much if not more irksome than the building of the mosque.

This simply isn’t true. Most of the left is supporting fundamental civil liberties, just as they would for Christianity.
One founding principle is the freedom of worship. That’s the specific point being defended. Freedom of worship for everyone, including Muslims.
Getting into the specifics of doctrinal beliefs I think most liberals will condemn the attitudes about homosexuals in both religions. We’re not supporting specific doctrine by defending their religious freedom or speaking out against bigotry.

CosmosDan said:
Why? Why by name? How is that better than denouncing terrorism and the killing of innocents? If they truly believe that the killing of innocents is wrong could you understand that they might also see our activities in Iraq and Afghanistan or Israel’s actions in the Palestine as also the killing of innocents.

Part of what I tell you here is stuff I wish I did NOT know.

When I say “by name” I am referring to organizations like “Hammas,” “Taliban,” “al Qaeda,” “CAIR,” etc.; I am referring to countries like Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, Lybia, Sudan, and others who fund and harbor those in the above groups. To make generalized statements like “I am against terrorism” just doesn’t cut it with me; naming names does–in fact, it’s the only thing that does.

Yes, I do understand that Muslims feel strongly about “innocents” being killed, but on the whole, I think no one has done more than the United States to employ surgical strikes against terrorist targets.

Yet, even though the terrorists may have killed some Muslims in their numerous attacks against the US, they did so knowing that the majority of casualties would be their perceived enemies.

In another part of my life, I know that command decisions were made to kill the enemy knowing that some of our own would be killed, too, and this is the stuff I wish I didn’t know…but that’s the way of war.

CosmosDan said:
Why must they agree with you that Cordoba house should be moved? Lot’s of decent American citizens disagree with you on that including families of 9/11 victims.

The victims of 9/11 are within their rights to say they believe the GZ mosque does not offend them. Perhaps they have a greater capacity to forgive the murderers of their loved ones than I have. I, however, do not have that capacity for forgiveness. I am not perfect.

greg454 says:

—Why not? Imam Rauf is threatening us with terrorism if we don’t build the ground zero mosque, Muslims in foreign countries are protesting against us, Christians in Indonesia got beat up,
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/09/12/assailants-stab-beat-christian-worshippers-outside-indonesias-capital/

So, if the entire world is going to tell us what to do, why not return the favor? The fact is that Muslims don’t practice the tolerance they preach.

once again – you can argue what you want, THIS is a free country

Cant have a Mcdonald near Mecca – lets get rid of Curry?
they are not tolerant, so neither should we?
they don’t have free elections so…….

I thought Americans were exceptional. I thought we were better than them. Sounds like you are arguing to be just like them

BBC news Sharlaw in UK is “unavoidable” DR Williams argues that adopting part of Islamic law would help maintain social cohesion. He says Muslims should not have to choose between”the stark alternatives of cyltural or STATE LOYALTY.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk-news/723266.stm

pyrope said:
Part of what I tell you here is stuff I wish I did NOT know.

When I say “by name” I am referring to organizations like “Hammas,” “Taliban,” “al Qaeda,” “CAIR,” etc.; I am referring to countries like Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, Lybia, Sudan, and others who fund and harbor those in the above groups. To make generalized statements like “I am against terrorism” just doesn’t cut it with me; naming names does–in fact, it’s the only thing that does.

Okay. I do hope you allow them to disagree with you on some points without resorting to the” terrorist sympathizer” label.

Yes, I do understand that Muslims feel strongly about “innocents” being killed, but on the whole, I think no one has done more than the United States to employ surgical strikes against terrorist targets.

I think that’s true as well, but it’s hard to convince Muslims when it’s their country being blown to shit and their friends and neighbors, women and children, dead in the streets. I think we have to try and gain some perspective and try to imagine how we as humans might respond to what they are experiencing.
We want them to share our outrage at terrorists but we seem unconcerned about theirs and barely consider it. What do you suppose the comparison is of Muslims killing civilians in America, and Americans killing Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yet, even though the terrorists may have killed some Muslims in their numerous attacks against the US, they did so knowing that the majority of casualties would be their perceived enemies.

Why do you assume American Muslims weren’t their perceived enemy? Radical Muslims seem to think any Muslim who doesn’t agree with them is the enemy and Western sympathizers. Are we going to reflect the same thinking?
If you don’t hate your fellow Muslims as much as we do then you must be a secret terrorist sympathizer. Is that it?

pyrope said:
The victims of 9/11 are within their rights to say they believe the GZ mosque does not offend them. Perhaps they have a greater capacity to forgive the murderers of their loved ones than I have. I, however, do not have that capacity for forgiveness. I am not perfect.

Who is asking you to forgive murderers? Nobody. What’s being asked is that you don’t blame innocent Muslims for something they had nothing to do with.

If it’s about sensitivity, then which is the most sensitive? The desire to heal and move away from hatred, and misplaced blame and anger, or keeping the wound open and feeding the fires of misplaced blame and bigotry.
On the wikki page about Park 51 I read the comments from 9/11 families both for and against. The comments for seem to be headed toward healing much more than the comments against.

Cosmos, I’ve already said that when someone pays for property, they can do what they want with it. My gripe with the left is their inconsistency. Christianity is against gays? Condemn it as bigoted. Muslims are against gays? Stay silent. White racists hate Jews and are for segregation? Blast them. Black Muslims practice the same things? Stay silent. If something’s wrong, then it’s wrong. Enough of the political correctness on which groups can be criticized and which can’t.

“This is, of course, a totally reasonable thing to say…if you’re intending to cause a whole bunch of controversy and get a lot of press.”

Uhhh, looks like he’s been taking a page out of Glenn Beck’s notebook.

http://www.sharethisurlaboutglennbeck.com/2010/07/beck-claims-to-be-radical-revolutionary.html
or better:
http://www.sharethisurlaboutglennbeck.com/2010/07/glenn-beck-as-jesus-insane-quotes-and.html

DEFENDER-90 said:
BBC news Sharlaw in UK is “unavoidable” DR Williams argues that adopting part of Islamic law would help maintain social cohesion. He says Muslims should not have to choose between”the stark alternatives of cyltural or STATE LOYALTY.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk-news/723266.stm

Look, Christians here have been told for over 200 years that they are to obey God first and foremost. Christians are still trying to impose their religious beliefs into our legal system. So far society hasn’t crumbled. There is no way Muslims will impose Shariah law on any country that has long had a democracy, even if they wanted to. It’s a non argument

writer said:
Cosmos, I’ve already said that when someone pays for property, they can do what they want with it. My gripe with the left is their inconsistency. Christianity is against gays? Condemn it as bigoted. Muslims are against gays? Stay silent. White racists hate Jews and are for segregation? Blast them. Black Muslims practice the same things? Stay silent. If something’s wrong, then it’s wrong. Enough of the political correctness on which groups can be criticized and which can’t.

I agree with you 100% that principles should remain consistent and sometimes human bias gets in the way. That can be seen in the left and the right. Being reasonable though, you can’t expect people to address every issue in every conversation. Christians have a much larger voice in America than Muslims and are much more visible and vocal on the issue of gay rights. That’s why people who disagree have spoken up. If American Muslims make a similar noise I believe you’ll hear a similar dissent from liberals. Have you heard a liberal remain silent when asked specifically about Islam’s attitude concerning homosexuality? Silence on a subject not be talked about, is not support or hypocrisy. We have to learn to separate the issues and focus on the discussion at hand.

Religious freedom for all religions is a separate subject from specific points of doctrine.
If the subject of discussion is football you have no reason to assume how I feel about soccer. You find out when soccer is the subject of discussion. Does that make sense?

But that’s part of the problem, Cosmos. Even when something is a fact and there is no assumption (Muslim attitudes on gays and women’s rights) the left won’t discuss it. I’ll use Keith Olbermann as being representative of the extreme far left. He spent a month bashing Carrie Prejean for saying she was against gay marriage. Obama said the same thing. Where was the month-long Obama bashing? Keith mocks those ‘right wing religious nuts’ for being against gays. Ever hear him mock Islam? But if you were to ask him about these stances, you’d be dismissed as a racist for mentioning Obama and a bigoted xenophobe for mentioning Islam.

writer said:
But that’s part of the problem, Cosmos. Even when something is a fact and there is no assumption (Muslim attitudes on gays and women’s rights) the left won’t discuss it. I’ll use Keith Olbermann as being representative of the extreme far left. He spent a month bashing Carrie Prejean for saying she was against gay marriage. Obama said the same thing. Where was the month-long Obama bashing? Keith mocks those ‘right wing religious nuts’ for being against gays. Ever hear him mock Islam? But if you were to ask him about these stances, you’d be dismissed as a racist for mentioning Obama and a bigoted xenophobe for mentioning Islam.

yup

I get the feeling Michael Moore was mistreated by his peers as a child? That’s why he has a constant craving for attention, and that would probably account for his overeating problem as well. Poor guy…somebody, put a cheeseburger in his mouth so he’ll shut up for awhile…

writer says: “I’ll use Keith Olbermann as being representative of the extreme far left. ”

Right: corporate media ALWAYS use people of the “extreme far left.” Olbermann is a strident liberal/progressive. He is to the right of Micheal Moore, Wallerstein and basically every socialist and Communist in the country.

“extreme for left:” where did you get your political “education,” Fox Noise?

writer said:
But that’s part of the problem, Cosmos. Even when something is a fact and there is no assumption (Muslim attitudes on gays and women’s rights) the left won’t discuss it. I’ll use Keith Olbermann as being representative of the extreme far left. He spent a month bashing Carrie Prejean for saying she was against gay marriage. Obama said the same thing. Where was the month-long Obama bashing? Keith mocks those ‘right wing religious nuts’ for being against gays. Ever hear him mock Islam? But if you were to ask him about these stances, you’d be dismissed as a racist for mentioning Obama and a bigoted xenophobe for mentioning Islam.

Stop saying “the Left” and then talking about one person. He’s one guy with an opinion and a show and he gets to decide what he wants to talk about. That’s not a representation of the entire “left”
Do you get upset when conservative pundits don’t give equal time to the other side of the story? They’re talking heads.

I think the bigger problem is using sweeping generalizations as if they are accurate. I object to conservatives and liberals using language that suggests all liberals or conservatives think and act the same. They don’t.

I keep reminding people that this is not a team sport where one team is playing a game against the other team. This is OUR country and we’re all on the same team. We need to learn how to communicate with each other politely and reasonably without sweeping inaccurate generalities and insults. I was just on HuufPo giving the liberals there criticism because it seemed all they had to offer was snide remarks and insults. It doesn’t help and we’re not kids who get to claim “he started it” {not accusing you, just ranting}
I’d rather see news channels giving decent coverage to both sides of a story or issue but that doesn’t always happen. Pundits usually present a biased view. That’s okay, because I trust I can get the other side of story someplace else. If you want to know what someone thinks about something you can ask.
It’s like I said writer, one subject at a time. I happen to support equal rights for gays. If I’m talking to or about how our large population of Christians are suppressing gay rights that doesn’t mean I’m purposely avoiding Muslim attitudes about it. It doesn’t mean I’m defending Islam and picking on Christians.

Cosmos, see GBR’s comment to see what I mean about the ‘far left’. Every word Fox News says is a lie. The thing is, shows like O’Reilly’s, Hannity’s, and Beck’s are opinion shows. And since far leftists such as GBR disagree with the opinions expressed, then they must be ‘lies’. I don’t claim that Olbermann, Maddow, Schultz and others are lying just because I disagree with their politics. But just look at posts from Royal King, GBR, BFD and other far leftists on this site. If you disagree with Obama, you’re a racist. If you’re against people entering the country illegally, you’re a xenophobe. If you want to bash Christians for being against gays, fine. Just don’t say anything about Islam. Not every liberal on here is a raving lunatic. But guys like GBR, Royal King, BFD, Ted, Iris, Roxy, etc. can, I believe fairly, be included in with the Olbermann crowd.

writer said:
Cosmos, see GBR’s comment to see what I mean about the ‘far left’. Every word Fox News says is a lie. The thing is, shows like O’Reilly’s, Hannity’s, and Beck’s are opinion shows. And since far leftists such as GBR disagree with the opinions expressed, then they must be ‘lies’. I don’t claim that Olbermann, Maddow, Schultz and others are lying just because I disagree with their politics. But just look at posts from Royal King, GBR, BFD and other far leftists on this site. If you disagree with Obama, you’re a racist. If you’re against people entering the country illegally, you’re a xenophobe. If you want to bash Christians for being against gays, fine. Just don’t say anything about Islam. Not every liberal on here is a raving lunatic. But guys like GBR, Royal King, BFD, Ted, Iris, Roxy, etc. can, I believe fairly, be included in with the Olbermann crowd.

You cited an opinion show didn’t you? You are correct in that Fox noise, or Faux News, is an unnecessary generalization. I just watched the clip posted here where their new anchor was questioning the GOP and I thought it was quite good. I watched Chris Wallace last Sunday and it was a good balanced discussion. Just so you know where I stand though, I do think Fox regularly blurs the line between news and opinion and far too often present a very biased view with distorted information. Too many news channels speculate about things with sketchy information. If it’s news then stop speculating. report what you know is true.
Look at Jon Stewart’s recent piece here piece here about Rev Jones and Imam Rauf being covered in the news. It’s a good example. Rauf makes observations very similar to what our own Gen. Patreus said and Fox employees are commenting that it’s a threat. Not very fair or balanced there.
Somebody commented that it’s okay for a pundit to give his opinion but they should still try and present the facts and in a reasonably balanced way. I agree with that. IMO Hannity and Beck intentionally distort the facts. I don’t care for Olberman’s style. I kinda like Rachael Maddow. She mocks the right too much for me, but I do think she sincerely researches her facts and makes decent points. But, they are all pundits after all,
I see people criticizing and mocking because the “left” gets their news from Jon Stewart, {which isn’t true} but I worry more about people taking a pundit like Beck too seriously. Don’t be fooled and think everything he says is true and researched.

Over the last couple of weeks I’ve decided to try and talk to individuals about specific issues without insults and without labels group labels and preconceptions.
If a subject comes up, you and I ought to able to talk about it and express what we think and how we feel about that one issue without using phrases like “well you libs always do X” or “all you conservatives keep whatever” Talk to that one3 person about that one issue without all the generalities and find out what they think as an individual and tell them what you think as an individual. Leave the stereotypes out of it.

Observe how little it takes to stir up the Little People. We really must begin to purge ourselves of these communist Republicants.

writer said:
The Muslim prohibition of pork prevents them from building on Moore’s property.

Bwaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha…Stop my side hurts! ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha……..

CosmosDan said:
If you don’t hate your fellow Muslims as much as we do then you must be a secret terrorist sympathizer. Is that it?

Thanks for your reasoned discours on this.

My first expectations of ALL Muslims is that they either stand up and denounce terrorism in no uncertain terms (as previously described) or be prepared to be known by all Americans for what they are. For me, when it comes to patriotism (and, if I failed to mention it, I am a naturalized citizen of this country, born in Greece), you are either for the US or you are its enemy. (Please don’t get me confused for one of the “my country right or wrong” crowd, that is NOT who I am, I am merely saying that each individual citizen must never be unclear in their denunciation of the enemies of our country. For one reason or another though, we see a LOT of Muslims (most of them in fact) who are silent or on the fence, and a good many of the “on the fence” ones are Muslim clerics–the leaders of the Muslim community.

Never hate your enemy; it clouds your thinking.

An old Arab proverb (actually what’s better described as a corollary) reads: “The friend of my enemy is my enemy.” Other derivations of this are “The enemy of my enemy is my friend,” etc., but you get the drift.

So, I guess when you get down to it, I would say that anyone who sides with my enemies are my enemy. To take it a bit further, I would say that anyone whom I have not identified as my friend is my potential enemy. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but since we are the sum of our experiences, my experience are that this bit of caution has kept me alive…thus far.

errata

“NOT who i am), I am…”

and

“sum of our experiences, my experience is…”

pyrope said:
Thanks for your reasoned discours on this.

You’re quite qelcome. Thank you as well.

My first expectations of ALL Muslims is that they either stand up and denounce terrorism in no uncertain terms (as previously described) or be prepared to be known by all Americans for what they are. For me, when it comes to patriotism (and, if I failed to mention it, I am a naturalized citizen of this country, born in Greece), you are either for the US or you are its enemy. (Please don’t get me confused for one of the “my country right or wrong” crowd, that is NOT who I am, I am merely saying that each individual citizen must never be unclear in their denunciation of the enemies of our country. For one reason or another though, we see a LOT of Muslims (most of them in fact) who are silent or on the fence, and a good many of the “on the fence” ones are Muslim clerics–the leaders of the Muslim community.

I agree. I think people who choose to come here and live here and raise a family need to have loyalty to this nation. Keep in mind though that this is a nation where dissent and criticizing government policies is our right as citizens and part of what makes us a great country. Any attitude that American Muslims don’t have that right should be corrected.

hate your enemy; it clouds your thinking.

That’s plain to see these days. We see hate that is aimed at an entire religion including people who are not our enemies. I Agree that Muslim leaders, the clerics and Imams, need to take a clear stance against terrorism. I think something is required of us as well. Imam Rauf , an American citizen who has lived here for decades has already taken a a clear stance against terrorism, speaks out against Hamas and is accused of threatening us. He exercises his right to voice an opinion and is branded a terrorist sympathizer. We must make sure we still stand for the principles of freedom in our actions and words. If we stand for justice and liberty, then we must try to be consistent and not pick out a group that has forfeited their rights because of religion. Look at protests against Mosques in other states far from Ground Zero. If we expect Muslims to be clear in denouncing terrorism shouldn’t we be clear about the religious freedom we’re supposed to offer? Shouldn’t we be clear about denouncing bigotry?

An old Arab proverb (actually what’s better described as a corollary) reads: “The friend of my enemy is my enemy.” Other derivations of this are “The enemy of my enemy is my friend,” etc., but you get the drift.
So, I guess when you get down to it, I would say that anyone who sides with my enemies are my enemy. To take it a bit further, I would say that anyone whom I have not identified as my friend is my potential enemy. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but since we are the sum of our experiences, my experience are that this bit of caution has kept me alive…thus far.

I understand and I agree when it comes to dealing with Muslim nations. Dealing with American citizens is different. We have professional agencies like the FBI and Department of homeland security for internal security. What we don’t need is media outlets fanning the fires of anti Muslim sentiment feeding fear and bigotry to make things worse. If an American Muslim says they are against terrorism then they deserve the benefit of the doubt. They certainly should be allowed to build a house of worship without being harassed for their faith. That is clearly not what we are supposed to stand for as a free country.

CosmosDan said:
I understand and I agree when it comes to dealing with Muslim nations. Dealing with American citizens is different.

The Rosenbergs were US citizens and look at the crap they started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg

I admire the FBI, and lots of folks at State, but you may recall that Janet Reno built a fence that kept the FBI, CIA, and NSA from sharing information. Meanwhile, Madeline “Halfbright” gutted our intel infrastructure in the Middle East, and more than half of those whom she appointed to be in charge of what was left had no idea what Islam was all about nor could they speak Farsi or Arabic.

In a former life, I worked closely with DHS–from the time Tom Ridge led it until November of ’08. (I retired immediately after the election because I knew Chertoff was toast.) If you look up

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/about/offices/fcd1.pdf

you will gain some insight on what my responsibilities might have been. Not bragging, just providing some qualifying information as to what I’m going to say next.

DHS made a lot of mistakes early on–with all due respects, Mr. Ridge was in waaaaay over his head, and that is not a comment about his being short in stature. He constructed what I called a “mud fence;” it went up fast but it was not strong…or pretty. Michael Chertoff was bright enough but a lot of his time was taken up in undoing some of the crap Ridge did.

I say all that to say this: The US has enemies both within and around the globe. This country’s most dangerous enemies are within it’s borders. A lot–MOST, if you will–have no clue just how dangerous times are.

While I’m at it, I would also warn you that even still, TSA couldn’t find its arse with both hands and a flashlight. They are, however, pretty good at harrassing passengers, but one would have to be pretty stupid to not be able to blow up a plane.

I agree that we do not need the media fanning the flames of bigotry, but I’ll go you one better: We don’t need the politicians using things like this to make political hay. Our government would be pretty good if it weren’t for most of the politicians.

Thanks for your remarks.

CD and pyrope….. in case you read this just wanted you to know that I appreciate your civil exchange …. and then there was this…

Nachi said:
Observe how little it takes to stir up the Little People. We really must begin to purge ourselves of these communist Republicants.

lmfao…….
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btw CD…

CosmosDan said:
If an American Muslim says they are against terrorism then they deserve the benefit of the doubt

I agree completely. By the same token I believe this is true as well…

IF A TEA PARTY PATRIOT SAYS THEY ARE AGAINST RACISM THEN THEY DESERVE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

FearMonger said:
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btw CD…

I agree completely. By the same token I believe this is true as well…

IF A TEA PARTY PATRIOT SAYS THEY ARE AGAINST RACISM THEN THEY DESERVE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

I agree. I think they’ve done a really good job of policing themselves. They’ve actually ejected some members who were blatantly racist. I think it’s wrong to assume racism or bigotry. If you suspect it, keep your mouth shut unless there’s some blatant expression of it, and give people the benefit of the doubt. We should discuss the specifics of the issues and not try to read each others minds concerning motives.

pyrope said:
The Rosenbergs were US citizens and look at the crap they started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg

I admire the FBI, and lots of folks at State, but you may recall that Janet Reno built a fence that kept the FBI, CIA, and NSA from sharing information. Meanwhile, Madeline “Halfbright” gutted our intel infrastructure in the Middle East, and more than half of those whom she appointed to be in charge of what was left had no idea what Islam was all about nor could they speak Farsi or Arabic.

In a former life, I worked closely with DHS–from the time Tom Ridge led it until November of ‘08. (I retired immediately after the election because I knew Chertoff was toast.) If you look up

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/about/offices/fcd1.pdf

you will gain some insight on what my responsibilities might have been. Not bragging, just providing some qualifying information as to what I’m going to say next.

DHS made a lot of mistakes early on–with all due respects, Mr. Ridge was in waaaaay over his head, and that is not a comment about his being short in stature. He constructed what I called a “mud fence;” it went up fast but it was not strong…or pretty. Michael Chertoff was bright enough but a lot of his time was taken up in undoing some of the crap Ridge did.

I say all that to say this: The US has enemies both within and around the globe. This country’s most dangerous enemies are within it’s borders. A lot–MOST, if you will–have no clue just how dangerous times are.

While I’m at it, I would also warn you that even still, TSA couldn’t find its arse with both hands and a flashlight. They are, however, pretty good at harrassing passengers, but one would have to be pretty stupid to not be able to blow up a plane.

I agree that we do not need the media fanning the flames of bigotry, but I’ll go you one better: We don’t need the politicians using things like this to make political hay. Our government would be pretty good if it weren’t for most of the politicians.

Thanks for your remarks.

Thank you as well sir. I learned something.

I agree we have to be aware of the very real danger of enemies within. I think bigotry and media encouragement of it is one of those enemies.Mutual hatred becomes a self fulfilling prophesy leaning toward violence.
I agree that politicians irresponsibly and sometimes immorally use fear and division for political ends. While we’re talking about lower Manhattan we’re not talking about the far more serious issue of political funding and politicians being owned by various groups.

First of all, Michael Moore is an idiot so I don’t know why he’s even a celebrity. Secondly, if anything at all ever gets build on ground zero it’s a slap in the face to all the families of the people who died there, not to mention a piece of American History and a reminder of what blind hate can do to you. Just like the concentration camps, just like Pearl Harbor, just like the The Medieval Torture Museum in Italy, and all the history taught in schools. The idea is to learn from the mistakes of the past to keep the future generations from repeating them. I don’t mind that a mosque is going to be built 2 blocks away. The majority of Muslims cannot be grouped with the crazies who kill themselves and others because they believe they are at war or believe that they will be rewarded. I do not agree with the Muslim religion or many of the practices they have, and don’t agree with the crazy section of them, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t have their mosque, or practice their religion as long as it is within the laws (no killing, abusing, maiming, etc.) Each person has to decide what they believe. I believe in God, Jesus his son, and heaven and hell. Almost every religion believes that each person will stand judgment one day. Leave people to practice what they believe. AND LEAVE GROUND ZERO ALONE.