Also Jane Fonda on Twitter boldly declared “[Sarah Palin] holds responsibility. As does the violence-provoking rhetoric of the Tea Party.”

Sarah Palin’s followers won’t be pleased.

Quote..Already some are racing to suggest the Tea Party, Sarah Palin and others are partially responsible. As a result of this incident, Keith Olbermann already demanded conservative commentators and politicians repudiate their violent rhetoric..end of quote.
Violent rhetoric? Are these right wing commentators insane? Or are you just deaf, dumb and blind? Giffords was a moderate and worked with BOTH parties….wouldn’t you say the violence and vile comments are from the LEFT wing of our society? How can anyone possible connect the tea party, conservatives and moderates to this kind of behavior?
Those who believe this sick rumor are pathetic. Go away !

Georgia999 said:
Quote..Already some are racing to suggest the Tea Party, Sarah Palin and others are partially responsible. As a result of this incident, Keith Olbermann already demanded conservative commentators and politicians repudiate their violent rhetoric..end of quote.Violent rhetoric? Are these LEFT wing commentators insane? Or are you just deaf, dumb and blind? Giffords was a moderate and worked with BOTH parties….wouldn’t you say the violence and vile comments are from the LEFT wing of our society? How can anyone possible connect the tea party, conservatives and moderates to this kind of behavior?Those who believe this sick rumor are pathetic. Go away !

Georgia999 said:
Are these right wing commentators insane?

Yes they are.

Georgia999 said:
Quote..Already some are racing to suggest the Tea Party, Sarah Palin and others are partially responsible. As a result of this incident, Keith Olbermann already demanded conservative commentators and politicians repudiate their violent rhetoric..end of quote.
Violent rhetoric? Are these right wing commentators insane? Or are you just deaf, dumb and blind? Giffords was a moderate and worked with BOTH parties….wouldn’t you say the violence and vile comments are from the LEFT wing of our society? How can anyone possible connect the tea party, conservatives and moderates to this kind of behavior?
Those who believe this sick rumor are pathetic. Go away !

how can anyone possibly connect the progressives, liberals, and left to this kind of behavior?
those who believe this sick accusation are pathetic…go away!

i think it’s totally unfair to blame sara palin for this act of a psychotic person. she is so much more to blame for bringing the intelligence level down with her dumb comments, but to blame her for this isn’t fair.
i agree with rachel sklar when she told howie kurtz this morning that palin isn’t responsible for this but she should act more responsibly when she speaks to her followers.

Of course we want an explanation. It’s not unexplainable. We don’t have all the facts yet and I understand the man who did this is not cooperating with police. But that doesn’t mean it’s just senseless and unexplainable. He may well have been influenced by others’ rhetoric and that may have been part of the reason why he did what he did.

To put it bluntly, I think you’re completely wrong. Words and imagery DO create a “climate of hate.” How do you think people are influenced to join up with hate groups, extremist groups of all kinds, some of which do eventually turn violent? I really don’t understand why you’re not interested to know what factors were in play here.

I see on Meet the Press today, that the talk radio host Congressman Allen West was going to hire as his chief of staff was quoted:

We will use bullets if ballots don’t work.

Fox News: Serving the Freeper community since 1996 said:
Also Jane Fonda on Twitter boldly declared “[Sarah Palin] holds responsibility. As does the violence-provoking rhetoric of the Tea Party.” Sarah Palin’s followers won’t be pleased.

Neither will people who value freedom, honesty, and integrity.

I see you don’t fall into that category.

ChiliPeppersFan said:
how can anyone possibly connect the progressives, liberals, and left to this kind of behavior?those who believe this sick accusation are pathetic…go away!

Because the same standards you use to attack those whom you disagree with politically, leads to the same conclusions. Why was Palin’s map worse than the left’s SAME map? Why was the “targeting” of that district by the right, worse than the left “targeting” that district… or saying that because of a vote, she was “dead to me?”

Additionally, we remember folks like the Discovery Channel hostage taker (who was a radical environmentalist), have seen how the far-left reacts to army recruiting stations in California, and how the Unions will stand on front-lawns protesting bank workers.

But the point isn’t that it’s left, not right… or right, not left… the point is that there are violent loons on both sides, who will do stupid and horrible things without provocation from any political party, or any one individual.

We don’t know all the facts yet, and anyone who says they know FOR SURE one way or another is lying, and trying to make political hay out of a tragedy. If that’s the type of person you are, fine… you must have cashed in your “humanity” card a long time ago.

Fox News: Serving the Freeper community since 1996 said:
Also Jane Fonda on Twitter boldly declared “[Sarah Palin] holds responsibility. As does the violence-provoking rhetoric of the Tea Party.”

Sarah Palin’s followers won’t be pleased.

i bet conservatives as a whole will be upset with jane fonda now. i can hear them now, tearing down their posters of her up on their walls. it’s a shame too because she was so good in that movie ‘monster-in-law’ (didn’t j-lo get an oscar for that?)

ImNotBlue said:
But the point isn’t that it’s left, not right… or right, not left… the point is that there are violent loons on both sides, who will do stupid and horrible things without provocation from any political party, or any one individual.

i totally agree with you. my post was in response to the one left by georgia.

ChiliPeppersFan said:
i bet conservatives as a whole will be upset with jane fonda now. i can hear them now, tearing down their posters of her up on their walls. it’s a shame too because she was so good in that movie ‘monster-in-law’ (didn’t j-lo get an oscar for that?)

Gee… someone with no facts blames someone else for inspiring murder… and you’re SHOCKED, that some other folks would get upset.

The real question is, if you believe (as you said) that this guy wasn’t left or right, and wasn’t inspired by someone like Palin… then how can you NOT be upset with what Fonda said?

Or are you part of that group that says, “Eh… they probably didn’t have anything to do with it, but if I can attack someone I disagree with, and use death and murder to achieve that goal… well, I’ll sully the dead, but that’s okay.” Is that you?

lighten the fuck up dude!!! it’s people like you and glen beck that love to take what people say and then twist it in to what you want to believe about the person. there is this beautiful concept called sarcasm. look into it.

ChiliPeppersFan said:
i bet conservatives as a whole will be upset with jane fonda now. i can hear them now, tearing down their posters of her up on their walls. it’s a shame too because she was so good in that movie ‘monster-in-law’ (didn’t j-lo get an oscar for that?)

that’s pretty funny, fan, I’ll give you that. yeah, J-Lo. paraphrasing Dorothy Parker, her acting runs the gamut of emotion from A to B.

fact is, it isn’t Palin’s fault and it isn’t the Tea Party’s fault or Keith Olbermann’s or Special Ed Schultz’ or anybody else. this kid was (apparently) an out-and-out nutter whose complicated conspiracy theory had elements of all sorts of political opinion. isn’t this kind of like Son of Sam blaming that dog?

can we possibly talk about personal responsibility and the concept that we shouldn’t shoot people even if we are mad at them, EVEN if someone says we should “target” them in the election?

Olbermann called for cessation of hate speech on both left and right.

danny6114 said:
Olbermann called for cessation of hate speech on both left and right.

but won’t be taking his own advice.

The sooner lefties like Olbermann and Krugman are fired the better it will be for honest political discourse in the United States, these guys are nothing but bomb throwers.

I just asked on my Twitter feed whether we know that the fellow has a television or internet access from home. All of this navel-gazing may serve a purpose for society at large, but all indications are that this was a complete nut — something that’s easy to grow in a desert — and I’ve seen nothing which says any outside stimuli had any effect or that he ever saw any of the things the chattering class are wanting to discuss.

He lived in Arizona. It’s easy to imagine that he didn’t have cable and may used public computers to access the ‘net. After all, though it was a more rural area, but where I lived in the state, you couldn’t get a phone.

OK – I’ve now zoomed-in on his parent’s house and I see that it’s in a dense enough community to have had cable as an option, I don’t know about broadband, but cable would certainly be available.

Of course that doesn’t mean that the family owns a television, subscribes to cable or that the shooter watched, but I now see that at least the concept of cable could have been an option and everyone isn’t just talking out of their hat.

Matt claimed, “To suggest that merely words and imagery creates a “climate of hate” capable of transforming a peaceful sociopath into a violent one is as ludicrous….”

You believe that Matt? Because I have two words for you: Byron Williams. It’s not just words and imagery, Beck uses the word “hate” over and over and over. He has also expressed pride that mental hospitals have to change the channel when Beck comes on because the patients get too excited listening to Beck.

If anything is “ludicrous” Matt, it’s your assertion above. Glenn Beck is a danger to civil society. Doubt that? Then read how Williams responded to Beck’s role as a “progressive hunter.” HUNTER! Not debunker, not exposer, Matt: HUNTER!

Laker says:
“The sooner lefties like Olbermann and Krugman are fired the better it will be for honest political discourse in the United States,….”

Right, Laker, like Beck does not lie on the order of 100 times more often than Olbermann and Krugman put together. Damn it, what f#$king planet do you reactionaries like on, Planet Fox? Oh, right. Of course you do.

It took a lot of work and many hours, but I have finally found something written about this tragedy that was full of clarity and common sense.
There is hope!

Why does anyone pay attention to Hanoi Jane??

The whole lot-Olberman, Fat Ed, Slobbering Chris, Beck, yap dog Hannity and reflex Ingraham-& Pom-Pom Palin should shut up-they have all added to the atmosphere & have no answers-except for the Tingler-who is never wrong and lets everyone know it.

Magister said:
I just asked on my Twitter feed whether we know that the fellow has a television or internet access from home. All of this navel-gazing may serve a purpose for society at large, but all indications are that this was a complete nut — something that’s easy to grow in a desert — and I’ve seen nothing which says any outside stimuli had any effect or that he ever saw any of the things the chattering class are wanting to discuss.

He lived in Arizona. It’s easy to imagine that he didn’t have cable and may used public computers to access the ‘net. After all, though it was a more rural area, but where I lived in the state, you couldn’t get a phone.

he lived in TUCSON, for godsake, man! he wasn’t out on the rez. in Tucson they have phones and computers and even a Starbucks or two, I’m led to believe.

Ruth Gretzinger said:
he lived in TUCSON, for godsake, man! he wasn’t out on the rez. in Tucson they have phones and computers and even a Starbucks or two, I’m led to believe.

That’s why after my initial comment, I used KVOA’s Google Map to zoom-in on his house and added the second comment. Though in my own defense, I’ve known several people who live in Tucson, but they’re actually miles from town. In fact, the place I lived in Arizona had no name and was thirteen miles from the nearest “town”.

Oh, and maybe I’ve missed it, but I don’t believe that I’ve seen any mentions of the fellow’s favorite shows. So, though cable may have been an option and his parents were able to afford the service, it doesn’t mean that he watched.

Ruth Gretzinger said:
he lived in TUCSON, for godsake, man! he wasn’t out on the rez. in Tucson they have phones and computers and even a Starbucks or two, I’m led to believe.

i got a telegraph saying they now have indoor plumbing there.

danny6114 said:
Olbermann called for cessation of hate speech on both left and right.

i’m a fan of his but he needs to lighten up on some of his rhetoric. (something he said he would do)

When are you right wingers going to wake up,for the last 30 years most most of the voilence are from you, not the left,you keep making excuses for the insane among you,oh the left does it too,bullshit.
own up to your voilent rhetoric,tell me which member of congress from the left drew a bulls eye on others,which prominent lefty candidate talked about using guns a means to winning an election,you right wingers are not living in reality. keep making the excuses.

INTERESTING: The shooter’s web postings list as one of his favorite books the bible of he lunatic-left: The Communist Manifesto.

IRONIC: giffords’ life was saved by the same healthcare system that she wants to destroy with obozocare.

Listen you finger pointing leftist asses. This BS is Saul Alinsky and “Rules for Radicals” at your worst. You people are bordering on being as evil as the psycho that actually commited the act.

ChiliPeppersFan said:
i got a telegraph saying they now have indoor plumbing there.

On the interstate between Phoenix and Tucson, there used to be a rest area that had no running water and waterless toilets. It’s been a few years since I’ve driven that road, but the internet tells me that the company which manufactured the technology went out of business and the rest area closed.

I say we blame the man who incessantly uses violent rhetoric to advance his political cause.

– “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
– “Get in Their Faces!”
– “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
– “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
– “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“
– Opposition victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
– “It’s time to Fight for it.”
– “Punish your enemies.”
– “I’m itching for a fight.”

Oh, wait. Those quotes were all uttered by our beloved President.

Never mind.

“Yet the craziest thing is racing to politicize a tragedy before the motives of the shooter or any other facts are known, when for at least a short time, there should be universal support and focus on putting insignificant political differences aside and uniting in hope for Giffords speedy recovery. ”

Great post Matt. A bit of sensibility and saneness in an otherwise hate-filled atmosphere of finger pointing and name-calling is a welcome relief. People like Olbermann, Krugmann, and Klein are part of the problem. I doubt anyone takes Hanoi Jane seriously anyways (sorry, she is just so ridiculous I had to make an exception here).

Anyone committing a crime has freedom of choice. Let’s put the blame where it belongs, on the individual that chooses to commit the act, not someone who may or may not have influenced him/her, especially without proof. If we did that we would have to blame literature and the movie and music industry for the rise in violence, drugs, and hate in this country.

“By no means am I advocating Olbermann, Krugman and Fonda silence their true emotions.”

In my opinion, what these people and others, including Hannity, Beck, and even Anderson, are often trying to do is to instigate hate and division, but that is the price we pay for freedom of speech.

ChiliPeppersFan said:
how can anyone possibly connect the progressives, liberals, and left to this kind of behavior?
those who believe this sick accusation are pathetic…go away!

ChiliPeppersFan said:
how can anyone possibly connect the progressives, liberals, and left to this kind of behavior?
those who believe this sick accusation are pathetic…go away!

First of all, from what we are learning about Jared Loughner, he was almost certainly mentally ill. Therefore, his political ideology is virtually non relevant, as mental illness is the likely cause of his actions.

If mental illness is something you want to dismiss out of hand as the main cause of his heinous action, then there is no point in having with you because you either don’t understand the nature of mental illness or you are too obtuse to consider that there may be other more powerful factors at hand then ‘political ideology’.

Secondly, even if Jared Loughner’s political persuasions mattered in this tragic incident, a friend (@caitieparker) of his from High School and beyond, who also was in a band with him, spoke out on her Twitter account yesterday stating the following:

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was “stupid & unintelligent . . . As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy . . . he had a lot of friends until he got alcohol poisoning in ’06, & dropped out of school. Mainly loner very philosophical . . .I haven’t seen him since ’07. Then, he was left wing.”

So for the left-leaning pundits, talking heads, political activists and true believers to be laying this at the feet of Sarah Palin, the Tea Party or anyone BUT Jared Loughner is self-serving, idiot-box, dipsh*t rhetoric at its most banal, amateurish, immature and repulsive worst.

GROW UP AND START BEING LEADERS OF THE FREE WORLD.

BTW, I STRONGLY OPPOSE Sarah Palin and strongly dislike the Tea Partiers for co-opting, corrupting and confusing the Libertarian message.

Doug Ross said:
I say we blame the man who incessantly uses violent rhetoric to advance his political cause. – “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”– “Get in Their Faces!”– “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”– “Hit Back Twice As Hard”– “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“– Opposition victory would mean “hand to hand combat”– “It’s time to Fight for it.”– “Punish your enemies.”– “I’m itching for a fight.” Oh, wait. Those quotes were all uttered by our beloved President. Never mind.

Also,

- We have our boots on their throats
- They have to go to the back of the bus

In my previous post, the paragraph should have read:

“If mental illness is something you want to dismiss out of hand as the main cause of his heinous action, then there is no point in having DISCOURSE with you because you either don’t understand the nature of mental illness or you are too obtuse to consider that there may be other more powerful factors at hand THAN ‘political ideology’.

It would be nice if Mediaite allowed us to edit our comments.

Is Daily Kos to blame for Gifford attack?

There’s no link to the diary entry at Daily Kos that is described in this posting from Hillbuzz. That’s because Kos scrubbed it. Thankfully, several bloggers were able to capture screen shots of the post that used the word “dead” in relation to Rep. Giffords several times.

Diary headline: “My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!” There are also several references to “dead” in the comment thread.

All of it now deleted – something Kos does on a regular basis when he wishes to change history. Kos also seems to have forgotten a posting of his calling for putting a “bullseye” on Giffords’ district. The New York Times insinuated something about Sarah Palin’s use of crosshairs in connection with the shooting, but so far as we have noticed, has not mentioend leftist violent rhetoiric and imagery.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/01/is_daily_kos_to_blame_for_giff.html

BigLeagues said:
Secondly, even if Jared Loughner’s political persuasions mattered in this tragic incident, a friend (@caitieparker) of his from High School and beyond, who also was in a band with him, spoke out on her Twitter account yesterday stating the following:

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was “stupid & unintelligent . . . As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy . . . he had a lot of friends until he got alcohol poisoning in ’06, & dropped out of school. Mainly loner very philosophical . . .I haven’t seen him since ’07. Then, he was left wing.”

I also believe that there’s no political motivation. I could make something of a layman’s profile for the fellow, but I’ve seen nothing to indicate that he even had knowledge of politics, beyond the fact that he reported voted in ’08.

As for the “friend”, a few people have wondered if she’s true. I don’t know and am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but we really don’t know how she defines “left wing”. She could be saying “left-wing” for Arizona, which could mean pro-choice, pro-legalization, perhaps pro-state park or maybe he didn’t like the evangelicals. We really don’t know how she defined it, what led her to that conclusion or whether he has changed in the past three years.

Ignorant, bitter, angry Republiscum will pretend sympathy, empathy, caring, shock – all normal feelings of which they totally LACK. See it unfold. Common BS – from common people.

BigLeagues said:
First of all, from what we are learning about Jared Loughner, he was almost certainly mentally ill. Therefore, his political ideology is virtually non relevant, as mental illness is the likely cause of his actions.

If mental illness is something you want to dismiss out of hand as the main cause of his heinous action, then there is no point in having with you because you either don’t understand the nature of mental illness or you are too obtuse to consider that there may be other more powerful factors at hand then ‘political ideology’.

Secondly, even if Jared Loughner’s political persuasions mattered in this tragic incident, a friend (@caitieparker) of his from High School and beyond, who also was in a band with him, spoke out on her Twitter account yesterday stating the following:

“He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was “stupid & unintelligent . . . As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy . . . he had a lot of friends until he got alcohol poisoning in ’06, & dropped out of school. Mainly loner very philosophical . . .I haven’t seen him since ’07. Then, he was left wing.”

So for the left-leaning pundits, talking heads, political activists and true believers to be laying this at the feet of Sarah Palin, the Tea Party or anyone BUT Jared Loughner is self-serving, idiot-box, dipsh*t rhetoric at its most banal, amateurish, immature and repulsive worst.

GROW UP AND START BEING LEADERS OF THE FREE WORLD.

BTW, I STRONGLY OPPOSE Sarah Palin and strongly dislike the Tea Partiers for co-opting, corrupting and confusing the Libertarian message.

damn, you guys don’t get this whole quote thing that’s available on this site…then again, you used it to respond to my post so either you didn’t read the whole thing, or you failed to understand it…let me show you what i did.

first there was a post by georgia…let me show you.

Georgia999 said:
Quote..Already some are racing to suggest the Tea Party, Sarah Palin and others are partially responsible. As a result of this incident, Keith Olbermann already demanded conservative commentators and politicians repudiate their violent rhetoric..end of quote.
Violent rhetoric? Are these right wing commentators insane? Or are you just deaf, dumb and blind? Giffords was a moderate and worked with BOTH parties….wouldn’t you say the violence and vile comments are from the LEFT wing of our society? How can anyone possible connect the tea party, conservatives and moderates to this kind of behavior?
Those who believe this sick rumor are pathetic. Go away !

see where he said “wouldn’t you say the violence and vile comments are from the LEFT wing of our society? How can anyone possible connect the tea party, conservatives and moderates to this kind of behavior?

now…are you still with me? now in response to that i said…

ChiliPeppersFan said:
how can anyone possibly connect the progressives, liberals, and left to this kind of behavior?
those who believe this sick accusation are pathetic…go away!

see what i did there? i took what he said and turned it around and if you read my other posts, you will see i’ve been consistent with saying that sara palin is not to blame but she should back off such forceful rhetoric.

if i have to explain myself to those of you who can’t keep up, this site will not be as fun as i thought it would be. you call your self big leagues and i will not make the obvious joke. (because you probably wouldn’t get it)

Magister said:
I also believe that there’s no political motivation. I could make something of a layman’s profile for the fellow, but I’ve seen nothing to indicate that he even had knowledge of politics, beyond the fact that he reported voted in ‘08.

As for the “friend”, a few people have wondered if she’s true. I don’t know and am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but we really don’t know how she defines “left wing”. She could be saying “left-wing” for Arizona, which could mean pro-choice, pro-legalization, perhaps pro-state park or maybe he didn’t like the evangelicals. We really don’t know how she defined it, what led her to that conclusion or whether he has changed in the past three years.

I agree . . . Left Wing (just as Right Wing) means a lot of different things to different people, particularly when factoring in region and youth and inexperience. Certainly a left leaning person in the Northeast is a different species from a left leaning person in the Southeast, for example.

As for her credibility, we all know that the networks often race to get the story without vetting their guests, but I think its rather easy to establish whether or not Catie Parker was a classmate of Loughner’s or not. Yearbooks are typically kept at public libraries, not to mention no one from Loughner’s school has called her out for not being who she says she is.

The tragedy is fresh, but the story is still in its infancy. I just wish more people would learn to cut through the opportunism and interference and see the important facts as they come to light.

hey magister
let me ask you because you come across as a very intelligent person who has been around and knows a lot about computers. have i been unclear at all in my posts or should i do something differently? first it was my joke about jane fonda being a hero to the right and now this guy.

ChiliPeppersFan said:

see what i did there? i took what he said and turned it around and if you read my other posts, you will see i’ve been consistent with saying that sara palin is not to blame but she should back off such forceful rhetoric.

if i have to explain myself to those of you who can’t keep up, this site will not be as fun as i thought it would be. you call your self big leagues and i will not make the obvious joke. (because you probably wouldn’t get it)

ChiliPeps: listen, sometimes people aren’t very good at expressing sarcasm in writing, particularly on the internet. Additionally, many people who write quick comments to other comments ASSUME that everyone is reading everything that they write. You should consider that when writing your quips.

Since we apparently agree on the central point of the discussion occurring here, it’s usually best to politely point out, rather than take a backhanded slap at that person (namely me).

So now, I’m forced to take the high road and express regret for not being better informed about your comment-for-comment position before writing my post.

I’m truly sorry for hurting your feelings.

Fox News: Serving the Freeper community since 1996 said:
Yes they are.

And Ed Shultz is the epitome of rationale thinking.

Nachi said:
Ignorant, bitter, angry Republiscum will pretend sympathy, empathy, caring, shock – all normal feelings of which they totally LACK. See it unfold. Common BS – from common people.

What we see here is a perfect example of the ugly rejecting the ugly.

Nachi renders an opinion about what he or she perceives as ‘the opposition” who are apparently devoid and/or incapable of empathy, insight, thought, and intelligence, by expressing his or herself in a manner which is devoid of empathy, insight, thought, and intelligence.

Game. Set. Match.

I don’t understand the Sarah Palin blaming going around. Is there any evidence that this guy liked Sarah Palin? From the looks of it, he is an anti religious conspiracy theorist. Not exactly Palinesque.

BigLeagues said:
ChiliPeps: listen, sometimes people aren’t very good at expressing sarcasm in writing, particularly on the internet. Additionally, many people who write quick comments to other comments ASSUME that everyone is reading everything that they write. You should consider that when writing your quips.

Since we apparently agree on the central point of the discussion occurring here, it’s usually best to politely point out, rather than take a backhanded slap at that person (namely me).

So now, I’m forced to take the high road and express regret for not being better informed about your comment-for-comment position before writing my post.

I’m truly sorry for hurting your feelings.

thank you for your post big league and i honestly will take into consideration what you have pointed out about my sarcastic remarks…you are correct that it is hard to express it in this form. my remark to you was primarily out of frustration and i appreciate your response.

TeaPartyPatriot says:
“INTERESTING: The shooter’s web postings list as one of his favorite books the bible of he lunatic-left: The Communist Manifesto.”

Nice cherry picking. Who did you learn that from, Beck? (He does this routinely.) Loughners also listed Mein Kampf and an Any Rand book. Hmmmm.

Can we agree that he was mentally disturbed?

GlennBeckReview said:
TeaPartyPatriot says:
“INTERESTING: The shooter’s web postings list as one of his favorite books the bible of he lunatic-left: The Communist Manifesto.”

Nice cherry picking. Who did you learn that from, Beck? (He does this routinely.) Loughners also listed Mein Kampf and an Any Rand book. Hmmmm.

Can we agree that he was mentally disturbed?

Having watched all of his recent Youtube videos and read accounts of people who know Loughner, I am inclined to believe that he is mentally ill. I’m not a psychiatric professional but seeing his words, he’s either mentally ill, or brilliantly sinister in crafting an alibi for an attack that is completely senseless.

TeaPartyPatriot said:
INTERESTING: The shooter’s web postings list as one of his favorite books the bible of he lunatic-left: The Communist Manifesto.

IRONIC: giffords’ life was saved by the same healthcare system that she wants to destroy with obozocare.

She has private insurance? Good to know. Thanks.

GlennBeckReview said:
TeaPartyPatriot says:
“INTERESTING: The shooter’s web postings list as one of his favorite books the bible of he lunatic-left: The Communist Manifesto.”

Nice cherry picking. Who did you learn that from, Beck? (He does this routinely.) Loughners also listed Mein Kampf and an Any Rand book. Hmmmm.

Can we agree that he was mentally disturbed?

It seems the shooter is a kind of Ted Kaczynsk Leftist.

dlauf87 said:
I don’t understand the Sarah Palin blaming going around. Is there any evidence that this guy liked Sarah Palin? From the looks of it, he is an anti religious conspiracy theorist. Not exactly Palinesque.

The Left needs to pin this on Palin like Clinton worked hard to say the Oklahoma Bombing was due to Rush. It’s just liberal Standard Operating Procedure to use any sort of story to their advantage.

If it is shown that the shooter is a liberal (and it sticks in the news), then the liberals will change their tune and claim he is a victim. But it’s highly this will happen because the media has been biased from the start.

ChiliPeppersFan said:
i totally agree with you. my post was in response to the one left by georgia.

Then why don’t people like Palin and the tea party and all other people try and not provoke these nuts??

A guy who hates the IRS flies a small airplane into a federal building. Immediately the news media blames right wing talk shows. Turns out he’s an Obama supporter. The story vanishes from the airways. This guy kills a bunch of people and severely injures a sitting congresswoman. Immediately the Left blames Sarah Palin and right wing talk. It is coming out more and more that he actually an unbalanced – insane? – person who has hated Ms Giffords for a while, and whose favorite reading material includes the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf, not exactly items on the Tea Party reading list. It appears that some gun control advocates are going to use the shootings to try to pass some anti-gun legislation, but other than that I predict the shelf life of this story will be about the same as your average loaf of white bread – unlike if he had actually been a Tea Partier.

Alz says:
“It seems the shooter is a kind of Ted Kaczynsk Leftist.”

That’s a perfect example of biased assimilation. Your understanding has less to do with the facts that with your bias. Jared Lee Loughner was a confused and disturbed man. He wasn’t left or right, but much of his YouTube posting comes off as paranoid, a feature of reactionaries more than leftists. It also comes off as semi-illiterate, an irony few have noted. That is ironic because he bitches about others not being smart or literate.

Until and unless he starts talking, we won’t know what he thought of Giffords or why he targeted her. A mentally stable assassin doesn’t keep shooting at innocent victims. He will most likely spend the rest of his life in a mental hospital where his damn parents should have had him after the college he was attending barred him until after he got psychological help. I hold his parents more responsible than the rhetoric on the right…this time. Unless reactionaries like Beck, Limbaugh and Palin tone it down, this assault on our democratic order will continue. Hopefully, someone at MediaFight is listening to Beck now on the radio and won’t let him off the hook for inciting violence.

I think the rush to report the shooting was less a fail than the rush to blame. The media certainly must take the utmost care to report the facts straight, but as a chaotic event like the shooting unfolded, I don’t think people should go off the deep end because NPR and some other outlets mistakenly said the congresswoman had passed. A big mistake, no doubt.

The rush to blame, on the other hand, is a huge fail. Before any facts about the shooter were known, fingers were being pointed. Anyone still following the story now knows the guy is psychotic. However, if you stopped following the story Saturday night or Sunday morning, you probably are left feeling that the political rhetoric over the last few years is the primary reason why the guy went nuts.

Even more of a fail, is the rush to pardon political rhetoric totally or condemn it absolutely. I’d really be more interested in hearing what a psychologist or sociologist has to say, or even a political scientist. For sure, political rhetoric CAN and HAS incited violence. Need I mention the unmentionable names of the last century’s most despicable tyrants and point to their persistent use of rhetoric to achieve their malicious goals? Even in America, a few well-regarded politicians and media types have been able to create havoc with their rhetoric. Rhetoric can inflame passions and passions can lead to violence (“Give me Liberty or Give me Death”).

Lost in all of this is the fact that there are mentally ill people in America, and even a fully functional mental health system cannot prevent the odd oddball from doing something tragic.

In addition, we are a free society and enjoy freedom of speech, so there is equally very little to be done about over the top rhetoric.

We just should be thankful that most people don’t get too overheated when their leaders and the talking heads fan the flames. We should also be thankful that must psychotics aren’t running around shooting people.

As far as Saturday’s tragedy, I’m not sure there is a “problem” that can be “fixed”.

It business as usual. The left spew hate and when something happens they blame everyone except taking a look at themselves. I did not hear the outcry of the left when the movie of assanation of President Bush or talking about Limbaug eyes bugging out and watching him die. It is really pathetic to point fingers instead of coming to together for solutions. The left is haters and Olberman and Krugeman are no suprise. I have never heard the tea party advocate for anything but responsiblity but the left. If you do not agree with them you are a racist bigot. It is those who spew this hate that are the racist and bigots. They are the ones always screaming the loudest.

WaltinMD says:
“In addition, we are a free society and enjoy freedom of speech, so there is equally very little to be done about over the top rhetoric.”

There is little the gov’t can or should do, but people responsible for the individuals engaged in the hateful vitriol can and should fire those engaged. First and foremost Glenn Beck must go. Fox and Premier Radio Networks could let this dangerous clown go before the next Byron Williams commits mass murder in Glenn Beck’s name…and even greater dishonor than he already demonstrates.

Sharon Johnson says:
“It business as usual. The left spew hate and when something happens they blame everyone except taking a look at themselves.”

What hate? You need to listen to Beck for a week if you want to really hear someone “spew hate.” By your logic, that makes him the racist bigot, and in that you’re not too far off. Beck is the anti-racist racist, a lie he may actually believe.

JARED LEE LOUGHNER was confused politically with Libertarian, fascist and communists books listed as his favorites. Newsflash for you reactionary propagandist, “the left” is not racist or bigoted. Those qualities belong nearly exclusively to the right and more so to the extreme, reactionary far right, from the KKK to the Nazis.

GlennBeckReview said:
Those qualities belong nearly exclusively to the right and more so to the extreme, reactionary far right, from the KKK to the Nazis.

The KKK was a Democrat institution and the Nazis were National SOCIALISTS. You are demented.

GlennBeckReview said:
Alz says:
“It seems the shooter is a kind of Ted Kaczynsk Leftist.”

That’s a perfect example of biased assimilation. Your understanding has less to do with the facts that with your bias. Jared Lee Loughner was a confused and disturbed man. He wasn’t left or right, but much of his YouTube posting comes off as paranoid, a feature of reactionaries more than leftists. It also comes off as semi-illiterate, an irony few have noted. That is ironic because he bitches about others not being smart or literate.

Until and unless he starts talking, we won’t know what he thought of Giffords or why he targeted her. A mentally stable assassin doesn’t keep shooting at innocent victims. He will most likely spend the rest of his life in a mental hospital where his damn parents should have had him after the college he was attending barred him until after he got psychological help. I hold his parents more responsible than the rhetoric on the right…this time. Unless reactionaries like Beck, Limbaugh and Palin tone it down, this assault on our democratic order will continue. Hopefully, someone at MediaFight is listening to Beck now on the radio and won’t let him off the hook for inciting violence.

I just made a statement of what I think. I compared him to another sick person.

On the other hand, the left says Palin had blood on her hands and has been going berserk. I am the one who is ore reasoned and I said “seems” not a definitive. We’ll see what happens but you should be complaining about the liberals.

BigLeagues said:
First of all, from what we are learning about Jared Loughner, he was almost certainly mentally ill. Therefore, his political ideology is virtually non relevant, as mental illness is the likely cause of his actions. If mental illness is something you want to dismiss out of hand as the main cause of his heinous action, then there is no point in having with you because you either don’t understand the nature of mental illness or you are too obtuse to consider that there may be other more powerful factors at hand then ‘political ideology’. Secondly, even if Jared Loughner’s political persuasions mattered in this tragic incident, a friend (@caitieparker) of his from High School and beyond, who also was in a band with him, spoke out on her Twitter account yesterday stating the following: “He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was “stupid & unintelligent . . . As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy . . . he had a lot of friends until he got alcohol poisoning in ’06, & dropped out of school. Mainly loner very philosophical . . .I haven’t seen him since ’07. Then, he was left wing.” So for the left-leaning pundits, talking heads, political activists and true believers to be laying this at the feet of Sarah Palin, the Tea Party or anyone BUT Jared Loughner is self-serving, idiot-box, dipsh*t rhetoric at its most banal, amateurish, immature and repulsive worst. GROW UP AND START BEING LEADERS OF THE FREE WORLD. BTW, I STRONGLY OPPOSE Sarah Palin and strongly dislike the Tea Partiers for co-opting, corrupting and confusing the Libertarian message.

Hey, I’m with you on virtually everything. But I would ask one thing, devoted libertarian to another. I agree and I despise those who are trying to co-opt the Tea Party movement. But the movement contains a lot of things. I think a lot of people who support the Tea Party movement are principally motivated by anger at government abuse. But they haven’t spent the time you and I have studying the real nature of that abuse. So, they have their political pitchforks and torches out, but don’t know to whose door to march.

So while I could not agree more with your sentiment, I think in the interest of blocking co-option, uncorrupting, and untangling the libertarian message, we need to make the distinctions, and not treat the complex amalgam of parts known as the Tea Party movement as a homogeneous entity. Surely it is not, and as with so many things we libertarians try to do, unraveling complex messes is the difficult but necessary road.

If that came off wrong, I apologize in advance. It’s a nuanced point but a useful one in my view. Keep the faith.

For the field, since there is so much “left versus right” arguing going on.

If you believe in the “left versus right” you are being duped. The useful political spectrum runs from totalitariansim to individual liberty. The Nazis and the Soviets were totalitarian. The Taliban is totalitarian. The Khmer Rouge were totalitarian. The Saudis are totalitarian. These are POLICE STATES.

The history of the entire world is a tale of one government abuse after another. One of the precious few exceptions was the early Unites States. A place where the government was truly, in large measure, subservient to the people. The government could not take your life, liberty, or property withoutt due process of law, including fair compensation. The government could not tax one man and give to another. The government could not search you without a warrant, signed off by an impartial judge attesting that probable cause for suspicion was WARRANTED. The government could not seize your weapons. The government could not curb your speech or restrict your freedom of assembly.

Three great paradoxes existed in these States. Slavery, the suboordination of women, and the limit of voting power to landowners. The third of those went the easiest I think. But sadly, in the elimination of slavery we destroyed State Sovereignty. Something we should attempt to restore. The suffrage movement, best I can tell, came with no such great penalty.

Remnants of our liberty remain, but they are remnants. The government can now read all your email and listen to phone calls with no warrant from neutral judge. It can monitor all your banking transactions. It can listen to your phone calls. And it can seamlessly take any amount of your wealth and redirect it to anyone.

Just as it is wrong to allow a 51% vote to rape your sister to be law, so many other things we allow by 51% vote are wrong. The government HAS NO AUTHORITY in many areas, and the Constitution, a CONTRACT between government and the People, is routinely trampled by the government.

Q: Why should a government that won’t hold up its end of a contract expect obedience from the People?
A: It shouldn’t. (And it doesn’t. Which is why it becomes more of a police state every day. The government knows full well it has grown to a criminal enterprise in many respects, and it intends to maintain its wolf status through CONTROL OF FORCE.)

Just_MC said:
For the field, since there is so much “left versus right” arguing going on.

If you believe in the “left versus right” you are being duped. The useful political spectrum runs from totalitariansim to individual liberty. The Nazis and the Soviets were totalitarian. The Taliban is totalitarian. The Khmer Rouge were totalitarian. The Saudis are totalitarian. These are POLICE STATES.

The history of the entire world is a tale of one government abuse after another. One of the precious few exceptions was the early Unites States. A place where the government was truly, in large measure, subservient to the people. The government could not take your life, liberty, or property withoutt due process of law, including fair compensation. The government could not tax one man and give to another. The government could not search you without a warrant, signed off by an impartial judge attesting that probable cause for suspicion was WARRANTED. The government could not seize your weapons. The government could not curb your speech or restrict your freedom of assembly.

Three great paradoxes existed in these States. Slavery, the suboordination of women, and the limit of voting power to landowners. The third of those went the easiest I think. But sadly, in the elimination of slavery we destroyed State Sovereignty. Something we should attempt to restore. The suffrage movement, best I can tell, came with no such great penalty.

Remnants of our liberty remain, but they are remnants. The government can now read all your email and listen to phone calls with no warrant from neutral judge. It can monitor all your banking transactions. It can listen to your phone calls. And it can seamlessly take any amount of your wealth and redirect it to anyone.

Just as it is wrong to allow a 51% vote to rape your sister to be law, so many other things we allow by 51% vote are wrong. The government HAS NO AUTHORITY in many areas, and the Constitution, a CONTRACT between government and the People, is routinely trampled by the government.

Q: Why should a government that won’t hold up its end of a contract expect obedience from the People?
A: It shouldn’t. (And it doesn’t. Which is why it becomes more of a police state every day. The government knows full well it has grown to a criminal enterprise in many respects, and it intends to maintain its wolf status through CONTROL OF FORCE.)

That’s very good. Thanks for taking the time. This is a pretty good video on the subject: Types of Government Republic vs Democracy vs Oligarchy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRQ76FYvw7M

As you point out, the key variable along the continuum is the level of government.

One of the biggest problems is how the Progressives pawned the term “Fascism” to the Right after Hitler’s atrocities (which were partially based off of Progressive Eugenics) became known.

“You know that Republicans will yell about the evils of partisanship whenever anyone tries to make a connection between the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc. and the violence I fear we’re going to see in the months and years ahead. But violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate. And it’s long past time for the GOP’s leaders to take a stand against the hate-mongers.”

Here’s a great place to start:

http://www.stentorian.com/Obama/

pyrope said:
“You know that Republicans will yell about the evils of partisanship whenever anyone tries to make a connection between the rhetoric of Beck, Limbaugh, etc. and the violence I fear we’re going to see in the months and years ahead. But violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate. And it’s long past time for the GOP’s leaders to take a stand against the hate-mongers.” Here’s a great place to start: http://www.stentorian.com/Obama/

I know what you mean. But I would as you to consider something. Government does EVERYTHING it does by the ultimate threat of killing the disobedient citizen. If you don’t follow what I mean on that, let me know and I will elaborate.

But with that in mind, a government that shows contempt for the restraints of the Constitution is inherently threatening its people with violence, forcing them to wonder if they dare challenge it and how. After all, what mercy and consideration does one expect when the government is blithely violating its written contract with the people?

Now, to be clear, both the Democratic party and the establishment of the GOP, which is still most of it by far, are guilty of trashing the Constitution and moving ever closer to a totalitarian state. So don’t take my views as partisan nonsense.

But when you talk about a climate of hate, consider that a government that blatantly disregards the limitations in its own contract is a scary thing that theatens the liberties of its citizens, backed with the threat of ultimate violence. As such, government overreach IS, ITSELF, a tremendous climate of hate.

Imagine Congress sitting down and saying, “okay, let;s now debate a bill to allow us to rape your sister once a week. Everybody stay civil. Don’t engage in hate speech. You’d better accept our decision and abide by it. (implicit in this is that if you resist absolutely you will ultimately be killed.) And don’t act like it’s not fair. It;s all done by a proper vote. We’ll probably end up with a compromise anyway, if you just join the peaceful political process, and we’ll only raper her once ever two weeks.”

Some things, most in fact, are BARRED from the federal government’s jurisdiction altogether. The Feds run roughshod over these. Ridiculously so if it were not to scary.

So, circling back to your discussion of a climate of hate from the GOP, I think we have a climate of hate from the Democrats AND the establishment GOP. The Tea Party movement is full of people who HATE such abuses of government, and the pattern of behavior that suggests it won’t stop unless it IS stopped.

A pretty scary and threatening scenario for the truly little people.

Pablo said:
The KKK was a Democrat institution and the Nazis were National SOCIALISTS. You are demented.

Thank you for responding to this. In addition, the most terrible totalitarian regime in history–the USSR–a Marxist/Leninist state.

However, there are plenty of examples on the other side. Hate, racism, jingoism is a human characteristic unfortunately universal to people of all political stripes.

Again, debating this stuff, however, has little to do with Saturday’s tragedy. The shooter was nuts.

Pablo says:
“You are demented.”

Beck once had a psychologist on and he was trying to get the guy to claim that Obama is a narcissist. To his credit, the shrink would not make a determination without a one on one interview.

Of course for reactionaries like you who have no professional restraints or ethics of any sort, making a determination of my mental state based upon your misunderstanding of political philosophy fall in line with the idiocy we see here from other reactionaries like Gordontheblowhardwithashow, Smart Alec, Just 4 the fax, etc.

Ad hominen attacks, especially on someone who is far more educated and grounded than you, Pablo (sock puppet) just make you out to be as intellectually shallow and childish as you actually seem in your exchanges with others on the left.

Carry on.

Just_MC said:
I know what you mean. But I would as you to consider something. Government does EVERYTHING it does by the ultimate threat of killing the disobedient citizen. If you don’t follow what I mean on that, let me know and I will elaborate.

Thank you for opening a rational dialogue. I assume you followed the link I provided to see that what is lately being called “hate speech” comes from both the left and the right. But, is this truly hate speech or is it sometimes metaphorical when we say we want to “target this” or “crush that?” I think such metaphors are used–by both the left and the right–to add emphasis for concentrating one’s cause and the hypersensitive people (or, perhaps those who are looking for an excuse to be appalled by some unfavorable comment) transfer their own meaning to whatever it is their political opponents say. This is how we got trapped into the political correctness snare that wastes resources and infringes upon the liberties of law-abiding Americans.

Life is NOT gradeschool, life is dealing with realities and acting on what we see. If we take actions based on anyone’s unfounded speculations or phobia, we are in the trap of political correctness and thus more likely to be victimized because our ability to scrutinize is limited to the resources we allocate to doing so. At some point, I believe an economist would tell us we need to weigh our resources allocated to scrutiny in such a way that we do not approach the status of diminishing returns. This, of course, should be weighted in favor of potential outcomes for not taking enough scrutiny, but that’s a consideration for another day. The point I’m trying to make is that government is not our nanny, nor should it be.

In your assessment that government does what it does under the threat of killing the disobedient citizen seems to imply you think that government would crush anyone engaged in insurrection–and especially if that “anyone” were trying to rise up against tyranny. I agree, and this is why the citizen must realize the meaning of sic pacaem, para bellum.

Glenn Beck has got to go!