Dax Shepard Argues With Podcast Guest After She Says He Fat-Shamed His Audience: ‘I Have Not Told Anyone They Need to Lose Weight’

Dax Shepard argued with his podcast guest, author Cathy O’Neil over the idea of fat-shaming.

On Thursday’s episode of Armchair Expert, Shepard asked O’Neil, who recently published a book on shame titled, The Shame Machine, about a time when his fans accused him of perpetuating fat shaming.

Shepard said, “I’ve been criticized because we had a show called Race to 270. So one of my friends, recently sober, has not been paying attention to his health for fourteen years, two years sober. He’s got kids. He wants to live. He wants to lose weight. He started at 330.”

“My friend, Charlie (Curtis), he owns a CrossFit gym. He’s a gym nut. So I sat like a $10,000 prize. If Charlie could get to 270 first, he would get it. And Aaron (Weakley) could get down to 270 first. And it was this comedic 10 episode thing,” he continued. “And I got all these really angry comments from people going, ‘This is diet culture.’ ‘I have an eating disorder, you’re perpetuating.’ And just like all this rage and anger that this show with these two people who wanted to do this, did it. And me who wanted to observe it.”

Shepard asked, “What’s your take on that? Do you see their point of view?”

O’Neil said, “Oh sure. First of all, a lot of people don’t recognize fat-shaming, even when they’re doing it. But I do think you were fat-shaming the audience because you’re framing it as a choice.”

O’Neil continued, “And the answer is it’s inappropriate. If the person that you’re shaming has no voice or no choice.”

“Well, that’s not the case,” Shepard argued. “So the person is on the show. They’ve expressed this interest. I’ve not told anyone they need to lose weight. So that right there, just your first criteria has not been met.”

O’Neil clarified, “Let me define choice. Everybody has a choice to go on a diet. You’re right. And many people can maintain a diet and even lose a lot of weight for some amount of time. The statistics on success of diets are nonexistent.”

She added, “And it’s just a fact, a statistical fact that almost nobody successfully diets long term, almost nobody.”

“Okay. So can I just push back on that? So I’m a raging addict, very openly raging addict. The success rate of people trying to recover is fucking abysmal. It’s very low,” Shepard said. “I’m not ever gonna say people can’t get sober. I’m not gonna ever say people shouldn’t try to get sober. It sounds to me like you’re saying you can’t lose weight. So when you imply you can, you’re gonna make someone feel bad. I don’t believe you should call addicts morally repugnant, not having willpower, that shouldn’t be done. That’s shaming, but to acknowledge that people can get sober, I’m not seeing that that’s a problem from the thing I have.”

He added, “If someone wanted to have a drinking show, I would have to choose to think they’re shaming me somehow that they love drinking. Like I can’t drink, I can’t do it.”

“Right,” O’Neil agreed.

Shepard continued, “You could have any show you’d want about drinking.”

O’Neil said, “There are various levels of choice and I’m not claiming that there’s no choice ever at all with anything. Some people very, very few statistically can lose weight. Very few.”

After listing more examples like smoking being difficult to quit, she said, “If you make it seem like, hmmm, just a choice you’re making. And if you’re not making the right choice, it’s on you. That’s shaming to those people who can’t quit.”

O’Neil began to explain that the shame results from people assuming a certain task is easy to accomplish. “It’s assuming it’s an easier choice than it actually is. Back to your example. It’s like, Hey, this is fun. My friend wants to do it. It’s a fun choice for him to make. It’s the healthy choice. If you frame it that way, then the people are like — ‘I really don’t appreciate you making this seem like it’s an enjoyable entertainment.'”

Shepard chimed in to say, “See, that’s where we will fundamentally disagree. I’m not making a show about you, person who’s saying that. This isn’t a show about you. Not unlike. If you have a show that’s called, what do they do? They do, uh, Sober October. I’m not sitting at home going. You’re saying I could just quit in January. They’re not talking about me. I have nothing to do with that.”

Listen above via Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard.