This should put the matter to rest. Steele is very effective.

Glynnis MacNicol said:
One gets the sense the next six weeks will an exercise in watching the GOP come to terms with reality of the party they have created.

It matters not. November 2nd (and all the elections that have already taken place – NJ Governor, VA Governor, the GOP Senate races) is 100% a referendum on the last 20 months of Mr. Obama and his obsession with socialized medicine (what passed is not even CLOSE to what he wants, anyone who knows his history knows this) while adding $3,000,000,000,000 to the national debt and screwing the middle class into the ground. His impact on November 2nd and the heavy losses Dems will have is all about Barack. Nothing that happens in the next 6 weeks will change that.

Andy Lamb said:
It matters not. November 2nd (and all the elections that have already taken place – NJ Governor, VA Governor, the GOP Senate races) is 100% a referendum on the last 20 months of Mr. Obama and his obsession with socialized medicine (what passed is not even CLOSE to what he wants, anyone who knows his history knows this) while adding $3,000,000,000,000 to the national debt and screwing the middle class into the ground. His impact on November 2nd and the heavy losses Dems will have is all about Barack. Nothing that happens in the next 6 weeks will change that.

I agree with you 139% Andy-Dandy. It irritates me to no end that the elderly, the poor and children believe they have some right to medical care. If they live long, healthy lives, they will simply be a drain on us. Very well put, Lambsey-Divey!

And of course the GOP is known as the party of the middle class.

paulmdoro said:
And of course the GOP is known as the party of the middle class.

Indeed. If it weren’t for the GOP’s “care” of the middle class, China would not be enjoying the economic boom it is.

The Real Royal King said:
I agree with you 139% Andy-Dandy. It irritates me to no end that the elderly, the poor and children believe they have some right to medical care. If they live long, healthy lives, they will simply be a drain on us. Very well put, Lambsey-Divey!

A little oversimplified King, but I like your sense of humor. Barack “Big O” Obama’s vision for health care is single payer, government run, one option only health care. Sorry, not for me, buddy. Holland is still working on theirs, perhaps you should travel there and check it out. There are still a lot of bugs in the system, but they’re trying to work on them. You might like it there, lots of fun stuff liberals pine for. You can head from your hotel to the local coffee shop and get stoned, then go next door, pick up a hooker, and have sex with her on a park bench. Of course, you have to look older than age 10 to be able to do these things, so make sure not to shave when you go.

One gets the sense the next six weeks will an exercise in watching the GOP come to terms with reality of the party they have created.

No shite Glynnis! The Cat is out of the bag! The RINO party has been exposed!.

Andy Lamb said:
then go next door, pick up a hooker, and have sex with her on a park bench

Wait was David Vitter there?

The Real Royal King said:
Indeed. If it weren’t for the GOP’s “care” of the middle class, China would not be enjoying the economic boom it is.

All Presidents embrace trade. WJ Clinton was the “Real Royal King” of free trade. Our trade defecit with China EXPLODED in the 1990′s under the auspice of Mr. Clinton. He LOVED trade. That, combined with all of the dot.com companies created by the internet, made Willie look like the greatest President of all time! Well, until the end of his term when the bubble burst and we were headed for recession. The “Big O” loves trade too. He doesn’t care where the money comes from, as long as it all goes to the Fed so that he can “spread it around” as he sees fit, he is a happy man.

I said:
then go next door, pick up a hooker, and have sex with her on a park bench

paulmdoro said:
Wait was David Vitter there?

Good one Paulmdoro………if he was, he probably took his hooker back to his hotel room.

Andy Lamb said:
Good one Paulmdoro………if he was, he probably took his hooker back to his hotel room.

Just saying, it’s clearly not just a place that appeals to liberals according to your description.

@The Real Royal King—you dont think that high corporate tax,excessive corporate and environmental regulations,Union wages have anything to do with it?

Andy Lamb said:
A little oversimplified King, but I like your sense of humor.

Man is that nice to hear instead of the usual “typical lib, moron, socialist, marxist, nazi”
I’m smarter than you nana nana boo boo

O’Donnell Opponent: From ‘Bearded Marxist’ to Harry Reid‘s ’Pet’

fter a rousing win in Delaware’s Republican Senatorial primary, Christine O’Donnell is preparing to battle Chris Coons, a one-time county executive with an undergraduate degree in chemistry and political science and two graduate degrees from Yale.

But while Vice President Joe Biden called Coons “well educated” yesterday, that’s not the way Coons once described himself. What term did he use? “Bearded Marxist”

In the Amherst college student newspaper in 1985, Coons authored an article titled “The Making of a Bearded Marxist,” which explains his transformation from the founder of the Amherst College Republicans, to someone who realized his once-held “beliefs in the miracles of free enterprise and the boundless opportunities to be had in America were largely untrue.”

The change occurred after a trip to Kenya, where his website says he was studying at the University of Nairobi.

“[I]t is only too easy to return from Africa glad to be American and smugly thankful for our wealth and freedom,” Coons wrote of the experience. “Instead, Amherst had taught me to question, so in turn I questioned Amherst, and America.”

In the end, however, Politico notes that while Coons “had discovered the faults of his country, he had also ‘returned to loving America.’”

That’s a good thing, since Coons is adored by fellow Democrats, including Harry Reid. In an interview with The Hill yesterday, Reid admitted a fondness for Coons that goes beyond simple support: “I’m going to be very honest with you — Chris Coons, everybody knows him in the Democratic caucus. He’s my pet. He’s my favorite candidate.”

“I‘m glad he’s running. I just think the world of him. He’s my pet,” Reid repeated.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/odonnell-opponent-from-bearded-marxist-to-harry-reids-pet/

Copy and paste is back!

Paul, as I said yesterday, we’re on to your side’s tactic of ridicule, so it doesn’t work as well. But I can see why you and the libs at Mediaite would rather spend another day on O’Donnell rather than talking about the collapse of the housing market..

MichelleF said:
Paul, as I said yesterday, we’re on to your side’s tactic of ridicule, so it doesn’t work as well. But I can see why you and the libs at Mediaite would rather spend another day on O’Donnell rather than talking about the collapse of the housing market..

It’s not about trying to distract anyone from real problems Michelle. But you’re right, I am ridiculing your nonstop copy and pasting of biased, partisan stories. I can see why you’d rather post that than face facts about O’Donnell though.

MichelleF said:
Paul, as I said yesterday, we’re on to your side’s tactic of ridicule, so it doesn’t work as well. But I can see why you and the libs at Mediaite would rather spend another day on O’Donnell rather than talking about the collapse of the housing market..

Wait, wait, wait. So if you make yourself look like an idiot I’m at fault for pointing it out. Wasn’t John McCain the one running a smear campaign during the election. Isn’t ridicule all you people ever do to president Obama? Can’t take the heat? And yes, if a person who has exhibited a history of personal fiscal irresponsibility states they are going to show fiscal responsibility in the senate and their decisions affect me I want to talk about that, it’s important. You should want to talk too because her decisions will affect you.

paulmdoro said:
Copy and paste is back!

And why does it not shock me that she took one from Glenn Beck’s website

paulmdoro said:
It’s not about trying to distract anyone from real problems Michelle. But you’re right, I am ridiculing your nonstop copy and pasting of biased, partisan stories. I can see why you’d rather post that than face facts about O’Donnell though.

You don’t seem to want to face facts about Coons, instead calling them “biased and partisan”, so your complaint falls awfully flat.

What I want to know is, since Royal King is always claiming he’s traveling the world, and he always comes back here telling us how far superior other countries are to us, why doesn’t he just stay in one of those superior countries? He lets on that he’s relatively wealthy, so money wouldn’t be a problem. What’s the hold up?

Ridicule away!!

Pablo said:
You don’t seem to want to face facts about Coons, instead calling them “biased and partisan”, so your complaint falls awfully flat.

What facts? That 25 years ago he called himself a “bearded Marxist”?

MichelleF said:
Ridicule away!!

You make it so easy. It’s like you are asking for it.

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
Wasn’t John McCain the one running a smear campaign during the election.

No. What makes you think he was? Was McCain the one talking about how Obama “doesn’t look like all those other presidents on the dollar bills.”? No. The right was furious with McCain for pulling his punches.

The_Reasonable_Lib says:
September 16, 2010 at 11:13 am The_Reasonable_Lib(Quote)
Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

paulmdoro said:
Copy and paste is back!

And why does it not shock me that she took one from Glenn Beck’s website

So are you disputing the article or can’t so you will just shoot the messenger? Just because the leftist media ignores stories, doesn’t mean they aren’t valid.

Ridicule away!!

paulmdoro said:
What facts? That 25 years ago he called himself a “bearded Marxist”?

That’s one. How many more can you find?

olbermann was hilarious
so much for the ‘big tent’ of the gop…
now if they get a big tent, christine odonnell will make them wash their hands

MichelleF said:
Ridicule away!!

Honestly, what’s with the childishness. Can’t you engage in a debate w/o resorting to distractions and displacement?

MichelleF said:
The_Reasonable_Lib says:
September 16, 2010 at 11:13 am The_Reasonable_Lib(Quote)
Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

paulmdoro said:
Copy and paste is back!

And why does it not shock me that she took one from Glenn Beck’s website

So are you disputing the article or can’t so you will just shoot the messenger? Just because the leftist media ignores stories, doesn’t mean they aren’t valid.

Ridicule away!!

I am not disputing that 25 years ago Coons called himself a “bearded Marxist.” I’m sure O’Donnell and the GOP will soon remind us of this as well.

Pablo said:
No. What makes you think he was? Was McCain the one talking about how Obama “doesn’t look like all those other presidents on the dollar bills.”? No. The right was furious with McCain for pulling his punches.

Pulling punches?!?! what campaign did you witness? The man did everything short of calling him a foreign-born drug addict. Or is that what you wanted?

paul doesn’t like ‘cut and paste’ references. I guess he prefers the Royal King’s style, where you make wild accusations, then throw insults or disappear when asked to provide any proof.

UNreasonable lib, did you even read that post before submitting it? I just posted something and was jumped on and ridiculed by you and Paul. Why don’t you look in the mirror. It’s you and Paul that are trying the tactics of distraction and ridicule to try to shut people down. It’s not going to work though. You can call me whatever you want, I couldn’t possibly care any less.

MichelleF said:
The_Reasonable_Lib says:
September 16, 2010 at 11:13 am The_Reasonable_Lib(Quote)
Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

paulmdoro said:
Copy and paste is back!

And why does it not shock me that she took one from Glenn Beck’s website

So are you disputing the article or can’t so you will just shoot the messenger? Just because the leftist media ignores stories, doesn’t mean they aren’t valid.

Ridicule away!!

No, and just because you find on google that there are 35 radical islamic training centers in the US doesn’t mean it’s valid.

DISTRACT AWAY!!

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
And yes, if a person who has exhibited a history of personal fiscal irresponsibility states they are going to show fiscal responsibility in the senate and their decisions affect me I want to talk about that, it’s important. You should want to talk too because her decisions will affect you.

Holy smokes, it’s a………Reasonable Lib! Taking that name acknowledges that many libs aren’t reasonable, you certainly seem to be one who is. And your point on O’Donnell is a good one. Frankly, I think it’s a shame the choices for DE voters are Coons and O’Donnell. Geez. It’s as bad as the last Presidential election, where the choices were (as the talentless and disliked by most Olbermann would say) worser and worsest.

MichelleF said:
UNreasonable lib, did you even read that post before submitting it? I just posted something and was jumped on and ridiculed by you and Paul. Why don’t you look in the mirror. It’s you and Paul that are trying the tactics of distraction and ridicule to try to shut people down. It’s not going to work though. You can call me whatever you want, I couldn’t possibly care any less.

I certainly don’t prefer RRK’s tactics, and no one is trying to “shut you down” Michelle. I just prefer more of your own thoughts and opinions, and less copy and pasting. There’s certainly a time and place for it, but I think you tend to overuse it.

Andy Lamb said:
And your point on O’Donnell is a good one. Frankly, I think it’s a shame the choices for DE voters are Coons and O’Donnell. Geez.

Indeed. And it’s not “RINOs” criticizing her for this. It’s tried and true conservatives.

Thanks for you opinion on my commenting style, Paul. I’ll take it under advisement. NOT!

MichelleF said:
Thanks for you opinion on my commenting style, Paul. I’ll take it under advisement. NOT!

LOL. I love fifth-grade retorts. Good times. You may have noticed that I said I actually prefer hearing your thoughts and opinions, rather than someone else’s. That was a compliment Michelle.

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
Wait, wait, wait. So if you make yourself look like an idiot I’m at fault for pointing it out.

I just took a look at MichelleF’s original post, ridiculed as a “cut and paste.” It’s not as if she put it on there like the words were her own, she even referenced a website. People on here cut and paste stuff and attempt to portray the comments as their own. That is to be ridiculed, I don’t think that pasting something and then referencing the source qualifies.

MichelleF said:
UNreasonable lib, did you even read that post before submitting it? I just posted something and was jumped on and ridiculed by you and Paul. Why don’t you look in the mirror. It’s you and Paul that are trying the tactics of distraction and ridicule to try to shut people down. It’s not going to work though. You can call me whatever you want, I couldn’t possibly care any less.

Yes, Michelle, I did. I look in the mirror and I see a human being with flaws who tries his best, what about you? You’re the one trying to distract. Rather than debate O’Donnell’s merits, you’re trying to demonize the opponent. That’s distracting. The post isn’t about the opponent, it’s about O’Donnell, stop trying to make it otherwise. If you can’t emphasize her history or merits, simply say so. But if you can’t, don’t come here saying how she’s the best candidate choice when you have no idea what she stands for or what her history is. When you try to say “Oh, you’re just ridiculing me” then it’s just a cop out attempt, say what you want. Then you accuse Paul of wanting to get into long debates when you spend hours debating about not getting into a debate, just answer the question and you’d resolve all of it. You waste more effort being difficult. If you can’t then just say so.

ChiliPeppersFan said:
olbermann was hilarious

You and the other 72 people who watch his pathetic comedy hour ALL think he is hilarious.

Finally, Steele got something right. I guess those shock treatments worked.

notsofast said:
Finally, Steele got something right. I guess those shock treatments worked.

Is that what he was doing while in hiding?

posts from beck are really helpful
yesterday he didn’t talk about odennell because “she’s from delaware and i don’t vote there” but it was obviously because her background seems kinda strange…
and what, he wants to dig around coons’ history because he thinks he can sell him some gold?

UNreasonable libs says:

Yes, Michelle, I did. I look in the mirror and I see a human being with flaws who tries his best, what about you? You’re the one trying to distract. Rather than debate O’Donnell’s merits, you’re trying to demonize the opponent. That’s distracting. The post isn’t about the opponent, it’s about O’Donnell, stop trying to make it otherwise

So the fact that the lib hacks on this site are so focused on O’Donnell and aren’t bothering with her opponent means I should ignore him too? I don’t think so, but nice try!!

Hey Chili, did you hear, Gold is at a record high. Get it while you can!!

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
Pulling punches?!?! what campaign did you witness? The man did everything short of calling him a foreign-born drug addict. Or is that what you wanted?

Quotes, please. Put up or retract.

Andy Lamb said:
Holy smokes, it’s a………Reasonable Lib! Taking that name acknowledges that many libs aren’t reasonable, you certainly seem to be one who is. And your point on O’Donnell is a good one. Frankly, I think it’s a shame the choices for DE voters are Coons and O’Donnell. Geez. It’s as bad as the last Presidential election, where the choices were (as the talentless and disliked by most Olbermann would say) worser and worsest.

Please allow me to claify, when I use reasonable in my name, I mean that I’m always open to new ideas. I’m open to tax cuts for businesses if it brings back our manufacturing sector. I’m a Christian but I don’t think that allowing 2 guys to get married destroys the sanctity of marriage any more than the guy who goes out to cheat and then comes home and gives his wife an STD. Many liberals are reasonable, many conservatives are reasonable, but it seems that our sides have been hijacked by the UNreasonable, the same can be said for islam and christianity. The right thing in the wrong hands always breeds contempt and destruction. If the village fool becomes the only one who can read he can rule, in our world the village fools are the only ones who have the time and means to rule.

MichelleF said:
UNreasonable libs says:

So the fact that the lib hacks on this site are so focused on O’Donnell and aren’t bothering with her opponent means I should ignore him too? I don’t think so, but nice try!!

Does that make you a “conserv hack”?

Yeah, remember when McCain said a few years ago Obama would be fetchin us coffee?

My bad, that was Clinton!

Both sides engage in dirty politics. It’s the world we live in. Getting into squabbles about it is pointless.

Andy Lamb said:
I just took a look at MichelleF’s original post, ridiculed as a “cut and paste.” It’s not as if she put it on there like the words were her own, she even referenced a website. People on here cut and paste stuff and attempt to portray the comments as their own. That is to be ridiculed, I don’t think that pasting something and then referencing the source qualifies.

That’s not why we “ridicule” Michelle. We do so because she refuses to ever actually talk about subjects and spends hours talking about how she doesn’t want to get into hour-long discussions.

paulmdoro says:

Does that make you a “conserv hack”?

Last time I checked Paul, I wasn’t a journOlist trying to convince people I had no agenda.

MichelleF said:
paulmdoro says:

Does that make you a “conserv hack”?

Last time I checked Paul, I wasn’t a journOlist trying to convince people I had no agenda.

Ah, OK then.

ChiliPeppersFan said:
olbermann was hilarious

Yes, KO is MSNBC’s top comedian that no one watches.

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
The post isn’t about the opponent, it’s about O’Donnell, stop trying to make it otherwise.

How dare you talk about O’Donnell’s opponent in the Senate race she’s in!?! We’re here to bash Republicans, damn you!

MichelleF said:
UNreasonable libs says:

Yes, Michelle, I did. I look in the mirror and I see a human being with flaws who tries his best, what about you? You’re the one trying to distract. Rather than debate O’Donnell’s merits, you’re trying to demonize the opponent. That’s distracting. The post isn’t about the opponent, it’s about O’Donnell, stop trying to make it otherwise

So the fact that the lib hacks on this site are so focused on O’Donnell and aren’t bothering with her opponent means I should ignore him too? I don’t think so, but nice try!!

Did I say to ignore? NO! Don’t twist my words. I’m saying thatif you can’t debate the subject then don’t post on it, if you don’t want to then don’t post on it. But if all you’re going to do is b*tch and moan about how things are unfair and how people should focus on other things then you can take your business elsewhere. It’s your right and choice to stay, but if you do, then you cannot be upset that we urge you to stay on topic. The entire matter is in your hands.

I said:
And your point on O’Donnell is a good one. Frankly, I think it’s a shame the choices for DE voters are Coons and O’Donnell. Geez.

paulmdoro said:
Indeed. And it’s not “RINOs” criticizing her for this. It’s tried and true conservatives.

Yes. But, please do recognize that I also included Coons in my statement. I see neither of them as strong candidates, and as I commented I also saw neither of the candidates in the last Presidential election as any good. The 20 month performance of the guy that got elected is proving that my instincts were on the money there.

“Chris Matthews on Wednesday departed from the liberal media conventional wisdom that Tea Party candidate Christine O’Donnell’s defeat of Republican favorite Mike Castle was good news for Democrats and President Obama.

Quite the contrary, the “Hardball” host has become extremely pessimistic about Democrat chances to retain Congress in the upcoming midterm elections, so much so that he likened his Party to the Titanic.

“The boat is sinking,” he told fellow liberal David Corn. “The establishment is sinking.”

When Corn tried to push back on Matthews’ view, the devout liberal said, “I take O`Donnell. How many points are you going to give me?”

The rats are already leaving the ship!

Andy Lamb said:
Yes. But, please do recognize that I also included Coons in my statement. I see neither of them as strong candidates

Word.

Pablo said:
Quotes, please. Put up or retract.

I thought you’d never ask. Shall we go to “the one” ad? Or possibly the britney-paris ad? Maybe all those “experience” ads?

ChiliPeppersFan said:
olbermann was hilarious

notsofast said:
Yes, KO is MSNBC’s top comedian that no one watches.

Now THAT is funny!!!!!

Pablo said:
How dare you talk about O’Donnell’s opponent in the Senate race she’s in!?! We’re here to bash Republicans, damn you!

Nice attempt to twist, you guys are getting good at that. But perhaps if you actually read you’d realize that your twist is baseless.

Oh, my! I just remembered the dirty tricks and smear jobs of the McCain campaign. Is that any way to elevate the discourse?

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
Nice attempt to twist, you guys are getting good at that. But perhaps if you actually read you’d realize that your twist is baseless.

The only thing I’m finding to be baseless are your claims. Put up or shut up.

Sorry RL, I’m not goign anywhere.

You know what’s funny, some days I tell myself I’m not going to get into these childish back and forrth’s with moronic libs just looking for fight. Yesterday for instance, I posted a thoughtful opinion on the subject at hand and it was ridiculed the same as if I copied and pasted. Why would I bother trying to thoughtfully pursuade you of anything when I know it isn’t possible? That’s a complete waste of my time.

Ridicule away!!

Andy Lamb said:
I just took a look at MichelleF’s original post, ridiculed as a “cut and paste.” It’s not as if she put it on there like the words were her own, she even referenced a website. People on here cut and paste stuff and attempt to portray the comments as their own. That is to be ridiculed, I don’t think that pasting something and then referencing the source qualifies.

Indeed. And no one would mistake any of Michelle-in-Utah’s endless copies and pastes as anything she actually wrote. That’s the p[roblem. The value of a site like this is the various individual analyses posters offer. You’re very good at that. Michelle-in-Utah’s C’s and P’s are largely worthless. We could go to any site that primarily provides links, Drudge, Huffington, &c, and get this same information. The analysis of the individual posters is what sets this apart.

paulmdoro said:
Copy and paste is back!

I don’t get the hating on the copy and paste. Why is it wrong for MichelleF or anyone else to bring an article to our attention that has information readers here might not have seen yet?

Those who object to this — are you saying your comments here are entirely based on independent reporting/sourcing you’ve done yourself? Or are you also sharing something you learned from a writer you favor? MichelleF is at least giving attribution to information she’s sharing.

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
I thought you’d never ask. Shall we go to “the one” ad? Or possibly the britney-paris ad? Maybe all those “experience” ads?

Yes, lets. Bring them on and explain to us how they’re smears or vicious attacks.

fanofamerica said:
I don’t get the hating on the copy and paste. Why is it wrong for MichelleF or anyone else to bring an article to our attention that has information readers here might not have seen yet?

They don’t want to hear what they don’t want to hear so they shoot the messenger and ignore the message.

MichelleF said:
Yeah, remember when McCain said a few years ago Obama would be fetchin us coffee?

My bad, that was Clinton!

I love it when conservatives point to game change. Remember all that stuff they said about Palin. Oh wait, you guys so those were lies. Just like people at Glenn Beck’s rally told those who informed that Glenn called Obama a racist were liars.

Pablo said:
The only thing I’m finding to be baseless are your claims. Put up or shut up.

I did. I provided specific attacks which the man used which are common knowledge.

Pablo said:
They don’t want to hear what they don’t want to hear so they shoot the messenger and ignore the message.

Ah, no. Not even close. Talking out of you-know-where. Try again.

I’ve asked before what Obama’s qualifications were to be president, and gotten answers such as “he attended college” and “people voted for him”. So I guess those same qualifications would fit for O’Donnell.

MichelleF said:

You know what’s funny, some days I tell myself I’m not going to get into these childish back and forrth’s with moronic libs just looking for fight.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m not looking for a fight and like I said before, I prefer hearing your thoughts and opinions rather than someone else’s. I certainly don’t think you’re a “moronic conservative.” That’s too bad.

It is time for the attack on this Marxist clown, Coons. He is Reid’s pet. That will help him.

Breitbart is back. LOL Listen to affirmative action Congresswoman Eleanor Holms Norton put the on for a contribution. Another crooked democrat caught by a tape. LOL.

http://biggovernment.com/capitolconfidential/2010/09/15/shock-audio-facing-obligations-from-leadership-democrat-house-member-puts-the-squeeze-on-lobbyist/

writer said:
I’ve asked before what Obama’s qualifications were to be president, and gotten answers such as “he attended college” and “people voted for him”. So I guess those same qualifications would fit for O’Donnell.

If you believe Obama was unqualified, wouldn’t O’Donnell be as well? Even more so since she has never even held elected public office?

Andy Lamb said:
A little oversimplified King, but I like your sense of humor. Barack “Big O” Obama’s vision for health care is single payer, government run, one option only health care. Sorry, not for me, buddy. Holland is still working on theirs, perhaps you should travel there and check it out. There are still a lot of bugs in the system, but they’re trying to work on them. You might like it there, lots of fun stuff liberals pine for. You can head from your hotel to the local coffee shop and get stoned, then go next door, pick up a hooker, and have sex with her on a park bench. Of course, you have to look older than age 10 to be able to do these things, so make sure not to shave when you go.

We’ll have to disagree. Given the reality that there is no viable competition, no free market in which any of the components of our health care system operates, and there never will be, I think single payer is the only viable route to go. And, it will happen here. Inevitably. Maybe 10 years, maybe 20.

I have never been on the Dutch system. I was on SHI in Germany twice, once as a child/teen for ten (10) years, with some breaks during the school year when I returned to New York, and for eight (8) years as an adult. I have high praise for the system. Ultimate care is not necessarily better, but in terms of preventitive care and early diagnosis and treatment, it beats our system hand’s down. And, the system delivers services to all, something our system simply does do until the critical care stages. It will happen.

BTW: There is much I like about the Netherlands, but Amsterdam is not one of my favorites places. Maastricht is a great town, and I enjoy Groningen as well. I admire the Dutch for the balanced lives they live. Hardworkers, but not as work-centric as Americans and Germans, life enjoyers, but not as unproductive as the Italians and the Greeks.

fanofamerica said:
I don’t get the hating on the copy and paste. Why is it wrong for MichelleF or anyone else to bring an article to our attention that has information readers here might not have seen yet? Those who object to this — are you saying your comments here are entirely based on independent reporting/sourcing you’ve done yourself? Or are you also sharing something you learned from a writer you favor? MichelleF is at least giving attribution to information she’s sharing.

If Michelle-in-Utah can’t form an original thought, well and good. Just link.

MichelleF said:
Sorry RL, I’m not goign anywhere.

You know what’s funny, some days I tell myself I’m not going to get into these childish back and forrth’s with moronic libs just looking for fight. Yesterday for instance, I posted a thoughtful opinion on the subject at hand and it was ridiculed the same as if I copied and pasted. Why would I bother trying to thoughtfully pursuade you of anything when I know it isn’t possible? That’s a complete waste of my time.

Ridicule away!!

And as I said, that’s your choice, and it’s my choice to point out your childishness. It is apparent that you don’t like this place, so why come somewhere you don’t like? Where is the logic in that? You’re the one who always starts these. A debate is a simple conversation, you’re the one who refuses to debate, ergo you’re the one starting the back and forths. I’m able to have a simple convo with AndyLamb with no rudeness, why not you? It’s a simple concept. You exemplify what’s wrong with Washington; I just want to have a simple debate and you want to distract. I’m reminded once more of Obama’s forum with House Republicans.

Royal Race-Baiter/Religious Bigot says:

The analysis of the individual posters is what sets this apart.

So where do your daily digs at my religion put you in the hierarchy of thoughtful posters.

gordonbloyershow said:
It is time for the attack on this Marxist clown, Coons. He is Reid’s pet. That will help him.

Breitbart is back. LOL Listen to affirmative action Congresswoman Eleanor Holms Norton put the on for a contribution. Another crooked democrat caught by a tape. LOL.

LOL Breitbart has a NEW TAPE OUT?!?!?! LOL How is this one edited??? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Who believes that jackass anymore?

Zumpano, thanks for provided us with another example of libs not being able to comment on the actual substance and instead shooting the messenger.

This is hilarious. You would NEVER find O’DOnnell at a Bondage club. What makes her think she’ll fit in with the RNC or the “young guns”? LOL

With no husband or children, but her own views it’s safe to say she’s NEVER HAD AN ORGASM.

Would you trust someone that old with no orgasm? REally??

How about her professional life of running for senate for the past three elections. SHE’S A PROFESSIONAL CANDIDATE WHO LIES.

She has conned all the baggers out there, because for them history started on Jan 20th 2009.

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
I did. I provided specific attacks which the man used which are common knowledge.

No, you didn’t. You briefly mentioned ads McCain ran against him. Well, no shit, Sherlock. It was a campaign after all. What you didn’t do is provide anything that looks anything like this:

The man did everything short of calling him a foreign-born drug addict.

Would you like to try again, or should we just embrace your fail now?

MichelleF said:
Zumpano, thanks for provided us with another example of libs not being able to comment on the actual substance and instead shooting the messenger.

Kind of like how you attack mediaite on a consistent basis for being “Liberal hacks” rather than debating? Or the consistent attacks on rachel maddow and sexual orientation rather than debating? Or maybe the consistent attacks on Jon Stewart rather than debating? You’re attempting to portray a human characteristic as a vice reserved only to liberals once more.

paul, I’m just saying that if we compare qualifications to hold office, O’Donnell and Obama are roughly equivalent. The voters will decide the rest.

writer said:
paul, I’m just saying that if we compare qualifications to hold office, O’Donnell and Obama are roughly equivalent.

Not really. O’Donnell has never been elected to public office and hasn’t even had a full-time, steady job in recent years.

I was going to say that one of her qualifications is she knows her way around a refrigerator. But that’s Rosie O’Donnell. Oops. Was that a distraction?

Pablo said:
No, you didn’t. You briefly mentioned ads McCain ran against him. Well, no shit, Sherlock. It was a campaign after all. What you didn’t do is provide anything that looks anything like this:

Would you like to try again, or should we just embrace your fail now?

OOOHHHH, “fail” and internet bullying. Shall I rise to the occasion? I believe so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zDnyrp20O8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_vVN0UwUyo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ocngIAeXjQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b0pSXmT10I&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kft4l9nw4zc&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVLQhRiEXZs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgbS-vy9_Sk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dlnt9maBJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONfJ7YSXE5w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FseX_3mT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsE8GbLM8U

The Real Royal King said:
If Michelle-in-Utah can’t form an original thought, well and good. Just link.

So what you post here are your original thoughts based on your independent reporting using sources you’ve culled and established? I think not. Just like us commoners, you rely on others reporting and form opinions based on the information you gather in that way. Again, no different than copy and paste, except doing that actually gives proper attribution.

The Real Royal King said:
We’ll have to disagree. Given the reality that there is no viable competition, no free market in which any of the components of our health care system operates, and there never will be, I think single payer is the only viable route to go. And, it will happen here. Inevitably. Maybe 10 years, maybe 20.

I guess we’ll see. Some agree with you, others don’t. I remember when I was in 5th grade, my teacher told me that we needed to learn the metric system because by the time I was an adult the U.S. will surely have fully adopted it. Again, we’ll see what happens.

The Real Royal King said:
I admire the Dutch for the balanced lives they live. Hardworkers, but not as work-centric as Americans and Germans, life enjoyers, but not as unproductive as the Italians and the Greeks.

Reading this reminded me of the All in the Family episode when Archie and Mike were arguing about stereotypes, because Archie was on one of his “Irish are drunks, Polacks are stupid, Jews are cheap, etc.” rants. I’m not saying you’re like that King, just enjoying some laughs as your comments made me think of Archie.

gordonbloyershow said:
Marxist clown

gordonbloyershow said:
affirmative action Congresswoman

Gordon, that’s just dumbass. No I’m not going to explain how you’re wrong to use those terms. It’s up to you to justify their usage if you want to be taken seriously. And I know you DO want to be taken seriously… but sprinkling “marxist” and “affirmative action” on every liberal like seasonings in your stew of hate, is just juvenile and a giant billboard to the world that you are not to be taken seriously.

Wanna take Hannity’s job? You ain’t gettin’ there like that, Blarney. ;-)

Say it ain’t so Joe!!

“On the heels of Christine O’Donnell’s primary win in Delaware Tuesday, Vice President Biden tonight had a straightforward message to progressives: “Get in gear, man.”

With the midterm elections quickly approaching, Biden said the Democratic Party’s base needs to take seriously the challenge from tea party candidates and their supporters.

“I think it’s time for our base to say, ‘Hey man, take a look. This opposition is for real,’” he said. “

Paul, I hate to break it to you, but it was Coons who called HIMSELF, the bearded marxist.

Shame on you Gordon for breaking the 11th commandment, thou shalt not use a liberals OWN words against him.

Andy, some stereotypes make the King laugh, while others make him cry. Check with him on the rules.

zumpano said:
She has conned all the baggers out there, because for them history started on Jan 20th 2009.

Not really all of history, just a very shitty part of it. But, no worries. You’ll get a good taste of what the country thinks of Obama on November 2nd. The voting that day will be MUCH more about him than the candidates actually running.

fanofamerica said:
So what you post here are your original thoughts based on your independent reporting using sources you’ve culled and established? I think not. Just like us commoners, you rely on others reporting and form opinions based on the information you gather in that way. Again, no different than copy and paste, except doing that actually gives proper attribution.

Copy and pasting, as I have said, has its place. I do it, too. I think there is a tendency though to rely on it too much though. Like I told Michelle, even though she believes I am a liberal moron, I do not think she is a moron and I actually want to hear what she thinks/believes.

MichelleF said:
Paul, I hate to break it to you, but it was Coons who called HIMSELF, the bearded marxist.

Shame on you Gordon for breaking the 11th commandment, thou shalt not use a liberals OWN words against him.

I know that Michelle.

The 11th commandment is Reagan’s declaration to not speak ill of fellow Republicans isn’t it?

Paul, I don’t put you in the liberal moron category. Now Royal Race-Baiter/Religious Bigot, Ted, Iris, DonnaK, BFD, zumpano are charter members of the liberal moron club.

That comment was for Paul Westlake, not you. He was complaining that someone called Coons a marxist, when it was Coons himself that said it.

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
OOOHHHH, “fail” and internet bullying. Shall I rise to the occasion? I believe so:

OK, when are you going to do it? Where’s the smears? Where’s something just short of “foreign born drug addict” in any of those ads?

Where’s the bullying, BTW? Is it bullying to expect you to back your argument up?

Oh, right. Liberal. Disagreement is hate, argument is bullying.

You fail. Again.

MichelleF said:
That comment was for Paul Westlake, not you. He was complaining that someone called Coons a marxist, when it was Coons himself that said it.

Oh sorry. OK. And I’m glad you don’t think I’m a moron.

writer said:
Andy, some stereotypes make the King laugh, while others make him cry. Check with him on the rules.

Every time I start to take a shine to the King, he brings me back full circle by saying something derogatory (and thus incorrect) about Reagan. As I’ve said on here before, if Presidents were soldiers, Reagan is Alvin York and Obama is Gomer Pyle. Heart in the right place, head up his ass. There are going to be a bunch of unemployed Democrats on November 3rd thanks to Mr. Obama.

It’s been tried, Andy. Michelle used to try to speak civilly with him, but every post would end up with him letting her know just how much smarter he was than her. It’s like that old story about picking up a rattlesnake and sheltering it from the cold. Be aware of what it is before you start.

Andy Lamb said:
A little oversimplified King, but I like your sense of humor. Barack “Big O” Obama’s vision for health care is single payer, government run, one option only health care. Sorry, not for me, buddy. Holland is still working on theirs, perhaps you should travel there and check it out. There are still a lot of bugs in the system, but they’re trying to work on them. You might like it there, lots of fun stuff liberals pine for. You can head from your hotel to the local coffee shop and get stoned, then go next door, pick up a hooker, and have sex with her on a park bench. Of course, you have to look older than age 10 to be able to do these things, so make sure not to shave when you go.

Talk about oversimplified! We already have a single payer system that works at a third of the cost of the typical HMO, called Medicare. Even with pervasive fraud and abuse, it’s still WAY cheaper than private insurance. But reactionary talking points make conservatives feel cool, I guess.

As for Holland, nice sneering condemnation of ALL liberals as deviants and anti-social perverts. (Holland is perfectly happy not to have your business, btw.)

My turn… ;-)

All conservatives are rage-filled, small-minded, cowardly racists, sexists, and self-hating, closeted homosexuals and/or pedophiles, who hate themselves so much they’d rather destroy the country, indeed the entire world, to prevent anyone from finding out how hateful, frightened, and insecure they are ALL THE TIME! Now, instead of lashing out at me, why don’t you do what conservatives ALWAYS do instead – go kill a small animal or beat your wife/girlfriend/child senseless. That’ll teach us!

We can play this all day long, and I’m pretty sure I won’t run out of vocabulary before you do. I constantly hear from cons how they hate being stereotyped, right before AND after stereotyping liberals with demeaning language. Well, OK, if we must. But like I said, I can play this all day without cracking the thesaurus. ;-)

Paul Westlake said:
Talk about oversimplified! We already have a single payer system that works at a third of the cost of the typical HMO, called Medicare. Even with pervasive fraud and abuse, it’s still WAY cheaper than private insurance. But reactionary talking points make conservatives feel cool, I guess.

Medicare?

The single most obtrusive unfunded liability of our government, to the tune of $100,000,000,000,000?

That great “way cheaper” single payer system?

MichelleF said:
Paul, I hate to break it to you, but it was Coons who called HIMSELF, the bearded marxist.

It was an ironic statement in the title -which I know is a challenge for the no-irony zone that is conservative America, but nonetheless, that is the case. In the end of the essay in question, he comes full circle and reaffirms his love for the “American way,” eerily similar to Sherrod coming full circle in the speech Breitbart mauled to conform with his conservative propaganda. The problem here is not that liberals have moments of self doubt and introspection about their motives, it’s that conservatives DON’T! And you can’t even be bothered to pay attention long enough to get the end of the story. It’s called intermittent listening, a mild form of attention deficit disorder. And it’s OBVIOUS! This isn’t pop psychology – this is as plain as the nose on your face. Anyone with a conscience can see right through the juvenile equivocations of conservative propaganda.

But thanks for playing. ;-)

kairos said:
$100,000,000,000,000?

One hundred trillion dollars? OK, Skippy. LOL!

Paul Westlake said:
All conservatives are rage-filled, small-minded, cowardly racists, sexists, and self-hating, closeted homosexuals and/or pedophiles, who hate themselves so much they’d rather destroy the country, indeed the entire world, to prevent anyone from finding out how hateful, frightened, and insecure they are ALL THE TIME!

Nice projection!

What’s the difference between a group of terrorists and a group of libs?

One wants to destroy America, tear down it’s institutions, destroy everything that makes it great, and make it a world pariah.

The other group flies planes into buildings, straps on bombs and wants the destruction of Israel.

DEFENDER-90 said:
@The Real Royal King—you dont think that high corporate tax,excessive corporate and environmental regulations,Union wages have anything to do with it?

How about makinig fair for every one – flat for citizens – same deal with corps
I’ve seen Oil defended, but Exxon paid no tax in US – billions to countries that allow them shelter

I’ve owned my own business for over 20 years and have paid more taxes that the company with the largest profit ever recorded

MichelleF said:
Zumpano, thanks for provided us with another example of libs not being able to comment on the actual substance and instead shooting the messenger.

What substance? The clips on the cutting room floor? We’ll never see those. How could we comment?

bugspot1 said:
Man is that nice to hear instead of the usual “typical lib, moron, socialist, marxist, nazi”
I’m smarter than you nana nana boo boo

I’m gonna have to believe the 4 thumbs down are part of the nana nana boo boo crowd

Paul Westlake said:
As for Holland, nice sneering condemnation of ALL liberals as deviants and anti-social perverts. (Holland is perfectly happy not to have your business, btw.)

I’ve e-mailed Holland to find out if this is true. They should recognize a little satire when they read it!

Paul Westlake said:
All conservatives are rage-filled, small-minded, cowardly racists, sexists, and self-hating, closeted homosexuals and/or pedophiles, who hate themselves so much they’d rather destroy the country, indeed the entire world, to prevent anyone from finding out how hateful, frightened, and insecure they are ALL THE TIME! Now, instead of lashing out at me, why don’t you do what conservatives ALWAYS do instead – go kill a small animal or beat your wife/girlfriend/child senseless. That’ll teach us!

How dare you call me closeted!!!

Paul Westlake said:
We can play this all day long, and I’m pretty sure I won’t run out of vocabulary before you do. I constantly hear from cons how they hate being stereotyped, right before AND after stereotyping liberals with demeaning language. Well, OK, if we must. But like I said, I can play this all day without cracking the thesaurus. ;-)

Kidding aside, I was just having a little fun with the RRK. Banter with him is a different animal, slings and barbs are a required part of dialogue.

Paul Westlake said:
One hundred trillion dollars? OK, Skippy. LOL!

Oh….I’m sorry

$89,000,000,000,000

I was rounding

writer said:
It’s been tried, Andy. Michelle used to try to speak civilly with him, but every post would end up with him letting her know just how much smarter he was than her. It’s like that old story about picking up a rattlesnake and sheltering it from the cold. Be aware of what it is before you start.

King does seem to have a fixation on MichelleF and his responses to her have an uncomfortable tone. I don’t know if it’s because he objects to her Mormon religion, or maybe he doesn’t like being challenged by an intelligent woman who manages to outwit him quite often. Either way, his weird attention to her is an awkward thing.

notsofast said:
Nice projection!

You wish!

notsofast said:
What’s the difference between a group of terrorists and a group of libs?

According to conservatives? Nothing. I don’t know why you bothered to make any distinction at all. LOL!

Let’s see, one abortion doctor shot? Check. One IRS building flown into? Check. One Tennessee mosque firebombed? Check. Several Democratic congressional office vandalized? Check.

Oh wait.. Lou Dobbs’ wife was shot at, wasn’t she? Well, maybe, if you think deer hunters deep in the woods behind his house have such terrible aim that they missed her by two stories and hit the attic with a slug that didn’t even dent the vinyl siding. But hey, if it FEELS like a war out there, it MUST be true.

Wow… just wow.

Andy Lamb said:
Every time I start to take a shine to the King, he brings me back full circle by saying something derogatory (and thus incorrect) about Reagan. As I’ve said on here before, if Presidents were soldiers, Reagan is Alvin York and Obama is Gomer Pyle. Heart in the right place, head up his ass. There are going to be a bunch of unemployed Democrats on November 3rd thanks to Mr. Obama.

I’ll be the first to admit, I utterly loathed Raygun. On reflection, however, I’d take a boatload of Raygun’s over one Tea Partier.

Curiously, since you seem to have fond recollections of Raygun, in deference to you, President Reagan, how do you think he’d “play” today? I ask that for two (2) reasons: I think President Reagan was very much a man of his time. He wasn’t locked in the past, and he had a rather short field of vision. On the plus side, that made him very comfortable with himself, which is a most endearing quality. Could he still be a man of us time today, or would his baggage make him a reactionary? More importantly, I don’t think President Reagan would pass the Republican sniff test today. Republicans in 2010 would view him as far too liberal, I believe.

If you have time, I would be interested in your thoughts.

Andy Lamb said:
Holy smokes, it’s a………Reasonable Lib! Taking that name acknowledges that many libs aren’t reasonable, you certainly seem to be one who is. And your point on O’Donnell is a good one. Frankly, I think it’s a shame the choices for DE voters are Coons and O’Donnell. Geez. It’s as bad as the last Presidential election, where the choices were (as the talentless and disliked by most Olbermann would say) worser and worsest.

Yes absolutely – everyone seems to be defending because shes a pretty republican, but how many conservatives would not jump on the anti-maturbate thing for bringing the thought police into my home

worse/worser – how bout more than 2 choices?
hate dem/rep – which side has more money to elect someone because they know someone

bugspot1 said:
Yes absolutely – everyone seems to be defending because shes a pretty republican, but how many conservatives would not jump on the anti-maturbate thing for bringing the thought police into my home

worse/worser – how bout more than 2 choices?
hate dem/rep – which side has more money to elect someone because they know someone

She also said she believes you can/should legislate morality.

kairos said:
$89,000,000,000,000

Oh, OK. I didn’t realize you were citing projections a hundred years out. Yeah, that number is right, in that context. However, nearly 30% of that cost is Medicare Part D, which funnels public money to private insurance. Whenever we let the private sector administrate public funds, costs skyrocket, not to ignore the chronic systemic problems in the program. But that’s really beside the point, funded or not, Medicare IS more efficient than HMOs, always. The main reason Medicare costs so much is because it can’t deny care. HMOs find any excuse under the sun to save a buck and deny payouts, but Medicare doesn’t have that luxury. Ultimately, the question boils down to priorities – is our priority to maintain a profit center for the private sector at the expense of American lives and wellbeing, or do we find a better way to provide health care to ALL Americans without breaking the bank? My priority is on health care for all.

paulmdoro said:
Ah, OK then.

: )

bugspot1 says:
September 16, 2010 at 12:52 pm bugspot1(Quote)
0 0
DEFENDER-90 said:
@The Real Royal King—you dont think that high corporate tax,excessive corporate and environmental regulations,Union wages have anything to do with it?

How about makinig fair for every one – flat for citizens – same deal with corps
I’ve seen Oil defended, but Exxon paid no tax in US – billions to countries that allow them shelter

I’ve owned my own business for over 20 years and have paid more taxes that the company with the largest profit ever recorded

—

I agree with much of what you both said. I’d even go one step further and add that by minimizing and in some instances effectively eliminating taxes for large corporations, we have made these corporations the largest welfare recipients in America.

I can’t support a flat tax rate because of its regressiveness. But, I do think the income tax is too burdensome on the government and on businesses and indivudals, too expensive to administer and unsusceptible to reform. The Tea Partiers can rant as much as they want, but we have an entrenched power structure in America (as do most industrial nations) that is not going anywhere. I personally favor elimination of the income tax and replacement with a modified VAT-style tax which taxes at lower rates “necessaries” and at much higher rates such luxury items as high-end transport, alcohol (and I do love the fermented fruit of the vine) and cigarettes.

I disagree with the notion that environmental regulations are too stringent. However, given the fact that most of America is third world in terms of public transportation, I do not support draconian gasoline taxes.

Andy Lamb said:
How dare you call me closeted!!!

Well played! LOL

Andy Lamb said:
Kidding aside, I was just having a little fun with the RRK. Banter with him is a different animal, slings and barbs are a required part of dialogue.

OK. I’ll take your word for that. I’ve only been posting here for a couple weeks and I know there’s a LOT of water under the bridges around here.

Standing down. ;-)

gordonbloyershow said:
It is time for the attack on this Marxist clown, Coons. He is Reid’s pet. That will help him.

Breitbart is back. LOL Listen to affirmative action Congresswoman Eleanor Holms Norton put the on for a contribution. Another crooked democrat caught by a tape. LOL.

http://biggovernment.com/capitolconfidential/2010/09/15/shock-audio-facing-obligations-from-leadership-democrat-house-member-puts-the-squeeze-on-lobbyist/

Oh goodie
BREITBART

Andy Lamb said:
I guess we’ll see. Some agree with you, others don’t. I remember when I was in 5th grade, my teacher told me that we needed to learn the metric system because by the time I was an adult the U.S. will surely have fully adopted it. Again, we’ll see what happens.

funny

Paul Westlake said:
Gordon, that’s just dumbass. No I’m not going to explain how you’re wrong to use those terms. It’s up to you to justify their usage if you want to be taken seriously. And I know you DO want to be taken seriously… but sprinkling “marxist” and “affirmative action” on every liberal like seasonings in your stew of hate, is just juvenile and a giant billboard to the world that you are not to be taken seriously.

Wanna take Hannity’s job? You ain’t gettin’ there like that, Blarney. ;-)

funny

Paul Westlake said:
Oh, OK. I didn’t realize you were citing projections a hundred years out. Yeah, that number is right, in that context. However, nearly 30% of that cost is Medicare Part D, which funnels public money to private insurance. Whenever we let the private sector administrate public funds, costs skyrocket, not to ignore the chronic systemic problems in the program. But that’s really beside the point, funded or not, Medicare IS more efficient than HMOs, always. The main reason Medicare costs so much is because it can’t deny care. HMOs find any excuse under the sun to save a buck and deny payouts, but Medicare doesn’t have that luxury. Ultimately, the question boils down to priorities – is our priority to maintain a profit center for the private sector at the expense of American lives and wellbeing, or do we find a better way to provide health care to ALL Americans without breaking the bank? My priority is on health care for all.

That’s not an assumed projection….it’s already contracted promises. Those aren’t a maybe, those are a definitely. I can’t help it if you refuse to accept a ledger liability that exists.

I also want the best health care system possible for this country. However, unlike you, I think that government run monopoly programs that are replete with waste, corruption, and unaccountability are simply a disasterous and repugnant way of dealing with things…including health care.

I’d much rather have a profit driven free market option where waste is minimal, corruption is counterproductive, and accountability is actual. If the government actually allowed full competition in the free market, that system would serve the people best IMO.

But if you actually believe your government run programs are efficient and cost-effective, then what can I do?

Trying to open the eyes of the blind just let’s in light that can’t be seen.

notsofast said:
It was an ironic statement in the title -which I know is a challenge for the no-irony zone that is conservative America, but nonetheless, that is the case. In the end of the essay in question, he comes full circle and reaffirms his love for the “American way,” eerily similar to Sherrod coming full circle in the speech Breitbart mauled to conform with his conservative propaganda. The problem here is not that liberals have moments of self doubt and introspection about their motives, it’s that conservatives DON’T! And you can’t even be bothered to pay attention long enough to get the end of the story. It’s called intermittent listening, a mild form of attention deficit disorder. And it’s OBVIOUS! This isn’t pop psychology – this is as plain as the nose on your face. Anyone with a conscience can see right through the juvenile equivocations of conservative propaganda.

past the humor, his point is it’s kind of hard to get the “other side” to agree with you when you call them marxis, stalinist, nazi, socialits idiots – i know your’e stupid so i’ll explain it slowly- note my other nana nana boo boo comment

here is one of my personal favoritesnotsofast said:
Like you, you fking cocksucking asshole homo?

Did your boyfried give ya a “hot lunch” or a “pearl necklace” today?

You are the natural cause of rectal prolapse!

The Real Royal King said:
bugspot1 says:
September 16, 2010 at 12:52 pm bugspot1(Quote)
0 0
DEFENDER-90 said:
@The Real Royal King—you dont think that high corporate tax,excessive corporate and environmental regulations,Union wages have anything to do with it?

How about makinig fair for every one – flat for citizens – same deal with corps
I’ve seen Oil defended, but Exxon paid no tax in US – billions to countries that allow them shelter

I’ve owned my own business for over 20 years and have paid more taxes that the company with the largest profit ever recorded

—

I agree with much of what you both said. I’d even go one step further and add that by minimizing and in some instances effectively eliminating taxes for large corporations, we have made these corporations the largest welfare recipients in America.

I can’t support a flat tax rate because of its regressiveness. But, I do think the income tax is too burdensome on the government and on businesses and indivudals, too expensive to administer and unsusceptible to reform. The Tea Partiers can rant as much as they want, but we have an entrenched power structure in America (as do most industrial nations) that is not going anywhere. I personally favor elimination of the income tax and replacement with a modified VAT-style tax which taxes at lower rates “necessaries” and at much higher rates such luxury items as high-end transport, alcohol (and I do love the fermented fruit of the vine) and cigarettes.

I disagree with the notion that environmental regulations are too stringent. However, given the fact that most of America is third world in terms of public transportation, I do not support draconian gasoline taxes.

wow – reasonable arguments – how many here are going to insult him now?

To quote Dick Tuck, “The people have spoken — the bastards!”

Too many Republicans are blaming the voters, when they should be embracing the enthusiasm of these new voters. The tea party movement is a phenomenon which will most likely die out after the election, but the people involved will remember whether the Republican establishment was on their side or not.

notsofast said:
Nice projection!

What’s the difference between a group of terrorists and a group of libs?

One wants to destroy America, tear down it’s institutions, destroy everything that makes it great, and make it a world pariah.

The other group flies planes into buildings, straps on bombs and wants the destruction of Israel.

oops
was re this

notsofast said:
Nice projection!

What’s the difference between a group of terrorists and a group of libs?

One wants to destroy America, tear down it’s institutions, destroy everything that makes it great, and make it a world pariah.

The other group flies planes into buildings, straps on bombs and wants the destruction of Israel.

past the humor, his point is it’s kind of hard to get the “other side” to agree with you when you call them marxis, stalinist, nazi, socialits idiots – i know your’e stupid so i’ll explain it slowly- note my other nana nana boo boo comment

here is one of my personal favoritesnotsofast said:
Like you, you fking cocksucking asshole homo?

Did your boyfried give ya a “hot lunch” or a “pearl necklace” today?

You are the natural cause of rectal prolapse

kairos said:
That’s not an assumed projection….it’s already contracted promises. Those aren’t a maybe, those are a definitely. I can’t help it if you refuse to accept a ledger liability that exists.

They’re projections based on life-expectancy. Nothing is written in stone… ever.

kairos said:
However, unlike you, I think that government run monopoly programs that are replete with waste, corruption, and unaccountability are simply a disasterous and repugnant way of dealing with things…including health care.

I acknowledged the waste, fraud, and abuse in Medicare, and pointed out that even with all that it’s STILL more efficient and lower-cost than private insurance. And Medicare doesn’t have actual death panels, like insurance companies. People worried about government bureaucrats making treatment decisions seem perfectly fine with corporate bureaucrats in the same role. Mystifying.

kairos said:
I’d much rather have a profit driven free market option where waste is minimal, corruption is counterproductive, and accountability is actual. If the government actually allowed full competition in the free market, that system would serve the people best IMO.

So you’re in favor of rescinding the anti-trust exemption health insurance companies currently enjoy? Excellent, so am I. Now let’s get the HMOs on board. But there is one flaw in that design – profit margins are low or non-existent with rare, expensive to treat maladies. Insurance companies already deny coverage to children with terminal conditions as a waste of money. I don’t think anyone considers their own child a waste of money, no matter what’s at stake, but insurance companies make that decision every day. The reason we have a government is to protect all citizens from the abuse of others, including other individuals, other governments, and other private interests. Government may not do a great job at it, but that’s their mission and we have the power to remake the composition of government every two and four years. We have no such control over private enterprise and granting them power over life and death is a recipe for death only.

kairos said:
But if you actually believe your government run programs are efficient and cost-effective, then what can I do?

You could start by reading what I actually wrote. I don’t believe the government is perfect, but I KNOW the private sector is corrupt and abusive. If health insurance companies thought they could compete and make a profit on a level playing field, they wouldn’t have demanded anti-trust exemption in the first place. To believe that corporations have your interests at heart is the apex of naivete. I don’t thin government is the only solution, but it’s the only one I have a vote in. That matters.

kairos said:
Trying to open the eyes of the blind just let’s in light that can’t be seen.

I could easily have made a similar remark about your comments but I chose to answer you point for point instead. If you want to be taken seriously, don’t say asshole shit like this.

@bugspot1———Good day bugspot1.You will always fined exception,but the essential truth is we are losing our manufacturing base.Look at whats happend to our auto industry,steele mills,textile industry.now Cannondal,Trek and Specialized bicycles are mostly made in Asia.

My asshole shit was based just a reflection of how I figured you wanted to converse….considering your first reply to me was “ok skippy, LOL”….or did i take that wrong? I’ll refrain if you do….just don’t be a hypocrite.

Based on life expectancy, yes…..which will more likely go up instead of decline….and this doesn’t account for immigration demand, which shows no sign of reversing. So basically those projections if wrong, are going to be wrong by underestimating, not overestimating.

Yes the government would unquestionably ration(you can call it death panels if you want)…..they have to ration because they can’t fund their program and would be forced to drastic measures just based on logic and uncaring pragmatism. Sorry, I simply do not trust our government to have the general welfare of the people in mind….they show me the opposite every chance they get. And as far as corporate denials go….they deny insurance to pay for health care….they do not deny health care….that’s where the government comes in and I’m fine with it….the government can provide for those who have no alternative. It’s still not perfect but better than the government actually having control over everyone’s health care….again I do not trust the government, they are not accountable. Furthermore, if the government runs the system and rations(which they will), then they will actually be denying CARE, not just funding for care…..truly a profound difference which I want to avoid.

Yes…..I’m fine with reasonable anti-trust regulation…..I do not believe in monopolization, even if I’m an ardent free market proponent.

Free market competition is the best way to eliminate waste and corruption, period. It is also the strongest form of accountability. You believe in government, I don’t. I actually think of your POV in regards to that is the “apex of naivete”….so we agree to disagree.

DEFENDER-90 said:
@bugspot1———Good day bugspot1.You will always fined exception,but the essential truth is we are losing our manufacturing base.Look at whats happend to our auto industry,steele mills,textile industry.now Cannondal,Trek and Specialized bicycles are mostly made in Asia.

just lost my bike store
schwinn started having bikes built in taiwan 30 years ago – that company (Giant) makes most bikes in the world today – cannondale was last holdout until 2008?2009 when they were bought

what is this comment re?

Gotta love the GOP circular firing squad. They should have won the mid terms easily. Instead the base of the party showed up .

bugspot1 said:
just lost my bike store
schwinn started having bikes built in taiwan 30 years ago – that company (Giant) makes most bikes in the world today – cannondale was last holdout until 2008?2009 when they were bought

what is this comment re?

btw – don’t believe trek when claim us- have all the parts made overseas, but assembled here does not count in my opinion

DEFENDER-90 said:
@bugspot1———Good day bugspot1..

pardon my lack of decorum – good day to you

kairos said:
considering your first reply to me was “ok skippy, LOL”….or did i take that wrong? I’ll refrain if you do….just don’t be a hypocrite.

I admit I jumped the gun. Re-reading your initial comment, it wasn’t as aggressive as my response. Must’ve just finished writing to Gordon… my bad. ;-)

kairos said:
So basically those projections if wrong, are going to be wrong by underestimating, not overestimating.

Only if you looking at the raw numbers. What isn’t included in that projection are gains from efficiencies that always emerge. For instance, computerizing records has already shown to be a cost-saver that exceeds even the rosiest claims. There will be an initial outlay for a lot of things, but as efficiencies improve, costs go down, sometimes dramatically. I’m not saying Medicare isn’t a problem at all, just that it isn’t the bogieman conservative pundits make it out to be.

kairos said:
Yes the government would unquestionably ration

Here’s where I think conservatives have it totally wrong. Government can deficit spend, insurance companies cannot. Government has an INCENTIVE to deficit spend, called elections. Insurance companies do not. IF government were to attempt to institute a rationing system based on life expectancy and productivity, the outcry from all directions would be so severe and traumatizing to the pols that they would literally piss themselves to squash the idea. Whereas insurance companies can make those decisions in secret and nobody has any recourse but to suffer. I don’t trust government, but at least I have a vote. I don’t trust corporations and there’s nothing I can do about them, especially the ones with anti-trust exemption.

kairos said:
Yes…..I’m fine with reasonable anti-trust regulation…..I do not believe in monopolization, even if I’m an ardent free market proponent.

Right on! ;-)

kairos said:
Free market competition is the best way to eliminate waste and corruption, period. It is also the strongest form of accountability.

It is in some instances, not in others. A private police force would be costly, inefficient, and even more brutal to those of lesser means than it already is. We actually did have private fire departments back in the 19th century, part of the fire insurance coverage one got. But the fire companies were terrible at the job and deeply corrupt and most structures that were supposed to be saved just burned to the ground. Really, it actually happened that way in America. So we know from experience that there areas of civic life that simply do not lend themselves to efficient operation by private interests.

I believe very strongly in the free enterprise system, but also that it needs cops on the beat. Adam Smith never described the free hand as being totally unfettered. Even he made it clear that regulation was necessary to foster the kind of dynamic competition that creates the most vibrant advancement. Right now, we’re in an era of rapid technological advancement and old industries don’t like the new competition. The history of the Pullman braking system is instructive on this point. It took an act of Congress to mandate hydraulic braking on trains, which was justified by saving lives, but that also led to an explosion in railroad profits, which the railroads themselves were to myopic to understand. It’s difficult to make a man understand something when his paycheck depends on his not understanding it. That’s the private sector in a nutshell.

kairos said:
I actually think of your POV in regards to that is the “apex of naivete”….so we agree to disagree.

I know you do, ergo my preemptive strike. ;-) But I think we ultimately want the same thing – reasonable solutions to real problems that everyone wants to fix. We disagree on how that happens, but only somewhat. I don’t think government can or SHOULD do everything. As a true progressive, I believe public/private partnerships are often the most efficient and accountable – and not necessarily a 50/50 split. The saddest aspect in our current national discourse, to my mind, is the zero-sum attitude (fostered by the press) that suggests being “for” one thing automatically means being “against” something else. We’re more sophisticated as nation than those definitions acknowledge… as conversations like this illustrate. ;-)

Paul Westlake said:
The saddest aspect in our current national discourse, to my mind, is the zero-sum attitude (fostered by the press) that suggests being “for” one thing automatically means being “against” something else. We’re more sophisticated as nation than those definitions acknowledge… as conversations like this illustrate. ;-)

kudos

Paul Westlake said:
Only if you looking at the raw numbers. What isn’t included in that projection are gains from efficiencies that always emerge. For instance, computerizing records has already shown to be a cost-saver that exceeds even the rosiest claims. There will be an initial outlay for a lot of things, but as efficiencies improve, costs go down, sometimes dramatically. I’m not saying Medicare isn’t a problem at all, just that it isn’t the bogieman conservative pundits make it out to be.

Yes….those points have been expressed…..but the same points were expressed in regards to medicare. Originally medicare’s liabilities were minimal, but in following years those costs were adjusted upwards based simply on miscalculations. I’m sure there will be some cost saving aspects, but I’m also sure there will be cost-adding aspects that have not been revealed yet and that they will out way the savings substantially…..it’s just how things always tend to progress when government is involved.

Paul Westlake said:
Here’s where I think conservatives have it totally wrong. Government can deficit spend, insurance companies cannot. Government has an INCENTIVE to deficit spend, called elections. Insurance companies do not. IF government were to attempt to institute a rationing system based on life expectancy and productivity, the outcry from all directions would be so severe and traumatizing to the pols that they would literally piss themselves to squash the idea. Whereas insurance companies can make those decisions in secret and nobody has any recourse but to suffer. I don’t trust government, but at least I have a vote. I don’t trust corporations and there’s nothing I can do about them, especially the ones with anti-trust exemption.

They have an incentive to deficit spend called elections? These upcoming ‘cleansing’ elections and the anti-establishment peoples movement are a referendum against deficit spending in particular. People want fiscal responsibility….so deficit spending may actually be a disincentive. At best, it’s a weak incentive, because the government(at least up until now) has been insulated from peoples anger….they took voting for granted and just played to their lobbies’ interests…..maybe if we’re lucky that is a dynamic that is changing right now, starting this November. And in a true free market paradigm, people DO have alternatives besides suffering…..they have less corrupt or uncaring corporations to turn to if the one they have treats them wrong. And again yes…..it’s more effective without anti-trust exemptions….I agree. Bottom line is I trust government less than I trust the corporations.

Paul Westlake said:
I believe very strongly in the free enterprise system, but also that it needs cops on the beat. Adam Smith never described the free hand as being totally unfettered. Even he made it clear that regulation was necessary to foster the kind of dynamic competition that creates the most vibrant advancement.

I agree with this, basically…and understand those examples yuo referred to. Some regulation to curb unethical activity and to assure competition is fine and probably necessary. However that is a totally different animal than the government actually running certain industries. I and adamantly against the government running anything besides what is absolutely necessary(and called for by the constitution), such as the military and emergency public services(ie police and fire). I do not want the government “running” anything else….again, my experience is that the government is inherently corrupt and self serving and the less involved it is in anything, the better.

Paul Westlake said:
I know you do, ergo my preemptive strike. ;-) But I think we ultimately want the same thing – reasonable solutions to real problems that everyone wants to fix. We disagree on how that happens, but only somewhat. I don’t think government can or SHOULD do everything. As a true progressive, I believe public/private partnerships are often the most efficient and accountable – and not necessarily a 50/50 split. The saddest aspect in our current national discourse, to my mind, is the zero-sum attitude (fostered by the press) that suggests being “for” one thing automatically means being “against” something else. We’re more sophisticated as nation than those definitions acknowledge… as conversations like this illustrate. ;-)

I do believe that you generally want the same things I do, and it’s a matter of means where we differ. I do have to say I don’t agree with your general perspective on what’s the better approach, but at least I feel you’re reasonable enough to actually try to see my point of view, which is good. I feel the same way about the political “zero sum” bullshit that is our current national paradigm…..it’s sad to me. Hopefully we are about to see some change in that respect….I’m hoping this current uprising is more about making government accountable and thus disarming the pure partisanship that suffocates everything…..we’ll see

Anyway….I’d rather have a discussion like this than hurling shit…..thanks for that.

I gotta run

bugspot1—–I worked at NEW UINITED MOTOR MANUFACTURING,inc In Fremont,California for 17+years.
When GM decide to pullout toyota asked us to open up the contract early to save our jobs,My Union UAW 2244 was against this ,but we the members were not ,so UAW 2244 said we will have a vote at the Union hall for 3300+but they did not work to hard to tell everyone,so 500+showed up my self included.The Union faithful voted no 400+and everyone else yes,weeks later Toyota said the plant will close in 7months.ITdid 4.1.2010.Maybe if UAW 2244 opened up the contract I might have my JOB.

DEFENDER-90 said:
bugspot1—–I worked at NEW UINITED MOTOR MANUFACTURING,inc In Fremont,California for 17+years.
When GM decide to pullout toyota asked us to open up the contract early to save our jobs,My Union UAW 2244 was against this ,but we the members were not ,so UAW 2244 said we will have a vote at the Union hall for 3300+but they did not work to hard to tell everyone,so 500+showed up my self included.The Union faithful voted no 400+and everyone else yes,weeks later Toyota said the plant will close in 7months.ITdid 4.1.2010.Maybe if UAW 2244 opened up the contract I might have my JOB.

SAD
I used to travel the country fixing computer for a company that paid people to pick product from shelves to ship.
1 store out of over 50 had Union com and and almost doubled wages, and you could not get people to work as hard. Not enough though, went on strike, and Company closed that store.

I lost my bikeshop not only from downturn in economy, but city road project that did not allow traffic to store.
With no traffic, noone wanted to buy the building (aside from HUGE drop in Commercial RE value) even for less than I paid, so lost that too.

Paul Westlake said:
Let’s see, one abortion doctor shot? Check. One IRS building flown into? Check. One Tennessee mosque firebombed? Check. Several Democratic congressional office vandalized? Check.

A doctor who was killing babies in the final trimester- Check!
The guy who flew a plane into the IRS was a liberal.Check!
Many churches fired bombed in the South. Check!
Democratic offices vandalized by Dems. Check!

Democratic Party Headquarters Vandalized”

DENVER — At least two people smashed windows bearing health-care reform posters at the Colorado Democratic headquarters in Denver.

Party officials are calling it an act of political vandalism.

Nearly every window of the office on Santa Fe Drive was smashed with hammers. A very early estimate on the amount of damage caused at the office was about $10,000.

Police arrested Maurice Schwenkler, 25, after they said he tried to flee on his bicycle. A second suspect escaped. Police said Schwenkler was wearing a blue hooded sweatshirt, a shirt covering his face, blue jeans, and latex gloves.

The Denver Post reported in its Wednesday editions that Schwenkler had Democratic ties. He received $500 in November 2008 to walk door-to-door in support of Democrat Mollie Cullom, who lost her race to Republican state Rep. David Balmer of Centennial, according to The Post.

Balmer said he suspects the vandalism might have been intended to make the Republican Party look bad.

“This sounds like the type of Democratic tactic from the left fringe trying to make Republicans look mean-spirited,” Balmer said. “In this case, it blew up in their face.”

Campaign records show Schwenkler was among dozens of canvassers paid by a political committee called the Colorado Citizens’ Coalition. He was also arrested on a charge of unlawful assembly while protesting outside the 2008 Republican National Convention in St. Paul.

[

bugspot1 said:
bugspot1 says:
September 16, 2010 at 1:40 pm bugspot1(Quote)
Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

Like you, you fking cocksucking asshole homo?

Did your boyfried give ya a “hot lunch” or a “pearl necklace” today?

You are the natural cause of rectal prolapse

notsofast, how dare you try to confuse Paul W with the facts! Low blow, man!

notsofast said:
A doctor who was killing babies in the final trimester- Check!
The guy who flew a plane into the IRS was a liberal.Check!
Many churches fired bombed in the South. Check!
Democratic offices vandalized by Dems. Check!

Thank you for showing us your true colors. Yes, the IRS plane bomber wrote a semi-liberal manifesto (more rambling persecution tirade but somewhat liberal). And in your mind, that’s liberal terrorism, but shooting a doctor who performs abortions (fetuses are not babies and it’s none of your business anyway) is A-OK with you because that’s not terrorism, that’s freedom fighting as far as you’re concerned. You try to justify radical actions with more radical actions – mosque for church, tit for tat, never seeing your role in the escalation. And you cherry-pick an incident that represents a small portion of the type of dirty tricks that both parties have engaged in since the first campaigns (guess you don’t remember Cantor and Dobbs trying to turn random incidents into acts of political intimidation), while ignoring the fact that actual Americans agree with the merits of using “second amendment remedies” if they don’t get their way at the ballot box, and some of them are already beginning to show it: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/35040.html

So thanks for showing us that you’re always willing to defend the indefensible, as long as it’s bears the conservative logo, and that you think all things liberal are intrinsically evil, regardless of intent or outcome. I can now safely ignore you from now on.

MichelleF said:
notsofast, how dare you try to confuse Paul W with the facts! Low blow, man!

Really?

heh heh

notsofast said:
Like you, you fking cocksucking asshole homo?

Did your boyfried give ya a “hot lunch” or a “pearl necklace” today?

You are the natural cause of rectal prolapse

I believe I already stated that is my personal favorite

notsofast said:
Like you, you fking cocksucking asshole homo?

Did your boyfried give ya a “hot lunch” or a “pearl necklace” today?

You are the natural cause of rectal prolapse

In fact if you were to read the post, I was arguing how do you convince a Liberal of your views when there is insults and name calling,

but hey, what do I know – maybe your way is better – gotten any Liberals to agree with you

btw – I believe in lower taxes, less government and no more wars of choice – as I recall you will now call me a typical lib asshole

bugspot1 said:
In fact if you were to read the post, I was arguing how do you convince a Liberal of your views when there is insults and name calling,

but hey, what do I know – maybe your way is better – gotten any Liberals to agree with you

btw – I believe in lower taxes, less government and no more wars of choice – as I recall you will now call me a typical lib asshole

and I forgot – suck my nut libby

@bugspot1-It’s bad all the way around.
To bad that you lost your bikeshop,sad times sad times.

DEFENDER-90 said:
@bugspot1-It’s bad all the way around.
To bad that you lost your bikeshop,sad times sad times.

yeah – the building is the killer – that was our retirement package, not to mention the debt to try and save it at $8500/ month

what were we talking about last night?

bugspot1 said:
DEFENDER-90 said:
@bugspot1-It’s bad all the way around.
To bad that you lost your bikeshop,sad times sad times.

yeah – the building is the killer – that was our retirement package, not to mention the debt to try and save it at $8500/ month

Sorry to hear that, Bug, I hope things turn around for you.

Patrick Henry said:
Sorry to hear that, Bug, I hope things turn around for you.

thanks
and good evening to you

Paul Westlake said:
but shooting a doctor who performs abortions (fetuses are not babies and it’s none of your business anyway) is A-OK with you because that’s not terrorism,

Paul, I just wanted to say as a conservative, I believe that fetus is a human life and aborting it is killing, but there in no justification for murdering a doctor who performs abortions. I think most conservatives think that way.

Good evening to you as well, Bug.

Patrick Henry said:
Paul, I just wanted to say as a conservative, I believe that fetus is a human life and aborting it is killing, but there in no justification for murdering a doctor who performs abortions.

I appreciate your perspective. I also believe a fetus is a human life, just not a baby, and I don’t like seeing that terminology used because it makes an already traumatic moment in a woman’s life that much more difficult. There may be some instances of women using abortion as birth control, but given the cost and invasiveness of the procedure, it’s probably extremely rare. When conservatives use terminology that paints abortion rights supporters as “baby killers” (not accusing you of that at all), it is based on the erroneous assumption that women make that decision casually. And that’s more than wrong, it’s cruel.

Patrick Henry said:
I think most conservatives think that way.

I wish I could agree with you but I don’t… not in this climate. I think too many conservatives have been emboldened by Tea Party candidates who believe all abortion should be banned, even for rape, incest, AND life of the mother. Rigidly adhering to pure ideology may win elections, but it’s no way to run a society. And tarring all women who have had or may be considering an abortion as cold-blooded murderers is all too common in conservative ranks right now. I wish there more like you out there, but I just don’t see many. ;-)

@Patrick Henry
@Paul Westlake

Civilized discourse – I LOVE IT

I did not read all the posts so maybe this was covered above:

What Mr. Steele (and a good many of the establishment Republicans!!!) is missing is the fact that it is a NEW DAY in conservative politics.

Mr. Steele was perhaps bing coy in not coming out with both barrels blazing against Ms. O’Donnell early on, but neither was he giving her viability as a bona fide candidate much in the way of credibility. In fact, it was the RNC who were at first saying she would get no funding AFTER she won the primary!!!!

Ms. O’Donnell may lose this election–the competition is considerable–but if she loses it because she was not adequately supported by the RNC, I believe the anger of many conservative-thinking independents and Republicans will be such that the RNC will have lost the rest of its credibility with those of us who live out here in flyover country.

bugspot1 said:
@Patrick Henry
@Paul Westlake

Civilized discourse – I LOVE IT

Thanks! Me too! ;-)