To blame pot and not blame guns is a sure sign of idiocy.

How about blaming Loughner instead of pot or guns? Wow, what a novel concept.

Sometimes Mental illness appears later on. Many people don’t show signs until they reach their twenties. There are small signs mental illness and then they PROGRESSVEly get worse.

Like many of the Liberal posters on here.

Seeing 2012 From My Window said:
How about blaming Loughner instead of pot or guns? Wow, what a novel concept.

Michele, you are right on point here. Guns, pot, Palin eyc are NOT responsible for this. Loughner is. Let’s put the responsibility where it belongs..

Latin2 said:
Sometimes Mental illness appears later on. Many people don’t show signs until they reach their twenties. There are small signs mental illness and then they PROGRESSVEly get worse. Like many of the Liberal posters on here.

Why oh why did you have to end a GREAT post with a slur? Is your hatred of liberals that great that you cannot post a good comment unless you attack me?

Publius219 said:
To blame pot and not blame guns is a sure sign of idiocy.

I’d say that blaming either is probably a sure sign of idiocy.

Just_MC said:
I’d say that blaming either is probably a sure sign of idiocy.

Except by those who know better. Then it’s not idiocy, it’s evil.

BlackWidow said:
Michele, you are right on point here. Guns, pot, Palin eyc are NOT responsible for this. Loughner is. Let’s put the responsibility where it belongs..

That’s difficult to do. He’s likely not rational and carried this act out for reasons that won’t make sense to us. He’s a deranged and disturbed person. Guns and pot are easier to understand. Accepting a that a person could be insane or evil, that’s way more difficult.

Latin2 said:
Sometimes Mental illness appears later on. Many people don’t show signs until they reach their twenties. There are small signs mental illness and then they PROGRESSVEly get worse. Like many of the Liberal posters on here.

The shrinks I’ve heard interviewed suggested this quote is actually correct. I don’t have a lot of confidence in shrinks, but what they do have is a lot of experience observing crazy people. So, it might be worth considering that regardless of when you say people become mentally ill, it may be true that the manifestations of that illness occur more at certain ages than others.

Again, just a thought. I don’t think this should be all that controversial.

Latin2 said:
Sometimes Mental illness appears later on. Many people don’t show signs until they reach their twenties. There are small signs mental illness and then they PROGRESSVEly get worse. Like many of the Liberal posters on here.

BTW, in the interest of fairness, can I agree with BlackWidow on this? The post was excellent. As crazy as some of the people are on this site (regardless of viewpoint), the discussion usually benefits from omitting the jabs.

Was there something in the drugs that affected his brain perhaps?

We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. That each individual is accountable for his or her actions.”
-Ronald Reagan

The shooter loved Anti-Flag, which is like a Rage Against the Machine…AN RADICAL LEFTIST ANARCHIST BAND…from the L.A. Times;

“The Communist Manifesto” is one of the books he favored, and a former high school friend reported on Twitter that Loughner was a “pot head” whose tastes ran to Jimi Hendrix, the Doors and Anti-Flag a radical leftist punk band whose music focuses on themes of corporate greed, U.S. foreign policy and opposition to war.”

Maybe the mixture of Radical LEFTIST Anarchism and mental illness motivated him to shot the highest government official in his district.?

Anarchists are anti-government and want to take to the streets to get revolution and believe in doing it in an aggressive violent manner.

Congresswoman might have been that symbol of government and the shooter in his mental illness could have wanted to do some sort of anarchism.

That could have been the motivate. The mix of anarchism anti-government and mental problems could’ve cause him to go off.

He was watching Ziegest videos on Youtube about how the Illuminati, Haliburton, Bush and the “new order order” and anti-religion and anti-government conspiracies are prevalent.

I am not blaming the music, because the guy was just crazy, but in his own mind that is what he might have been tripping on.

One of his friends said he fancied himself an anarchist, which is popular among many kids on the Left, and he might have just taken to a higher level because of his mental illness.

Anarchism is violent by nature, many teens never take it another level, but when you mix in mental illness, that is all it takes to set someone off.

Latin2 said:
One of his friends said he fancied himself an anarchist, which is popular among many kids on the Left, and he might have just taken to a higher level because of his mental illness.

But I thought the Left love the government and depend on it for everything?

Jesus you people can’t even make up your fucking minds….

LibertySister said:
We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. That each individual is accountable for his or her actions.”
-Ronald Reagan

By this reasoning, Charles Manson should still be out walking the streets.

I am not blaming that movement…even though it is violent. I am blaming MENTAL illness of the shooter and him.

I am just trying to find the motive BASED ON THE FACTS so far, and not like the Liberal Media did when the shooting occurred. You have to wait till more evidence and facts to in to make that judgment.

But to blame the Tea Party and Palin without any evidence first was very wrong. You wait till more facts start coming in like what he watched, what his friends and family say and what was his hobbies, and then you can make that statement.

I think the problem with some on the Left just because he was WHITE and shooter that he was a right winger…THAT IS RACIST.

It might be a form of racism to assume that just because a shooter is WHITE that is automatically a right wing shooter.

In most recent shootings many on the Left have made a rush to judgment that if the shooter is white and a male…he has to be a tea party person or a right winger…but in the last several incidents they turned out to be LEFTISTS.

Latin2 said:
One of his friends said he fancied himself an anarchist, which is popular among many kids on the Left, and he might have just taken to a higher level because of his mental illness.

Are you sure that anarchism is tied to a specific political ideology? Isn’t the whole idea of anarchism to rebel against the establishment and, well, just about everything, including politics? I think you’re letting a personal hatred of liberal politics cloud your judgment and reasoning.

paulmdoro said:
Are you sure that anarchism is tied to a specific political ideology? Isn’t the whole idea of anarchism to rebel against the establishment and, well, just about everything, including politics? I think you’re letting a personal hatred of liberal politics cloud your judgment and reasoning.

I just know that one of his friends said he ‘fancied himself” an anarchist, and his friend was of college age. Many of today’s college students associate ‘anarchism’ with radicalism, but on the Left.

If you ask a college student what is an anarchist,, they will automatically say the radical leftist kind.

Latin2 said:
I just know that one of his friends said he ‘fancied himself” an anarchist, and his friend was of college age. Many of today’s college students associate ‘anarchism’ with radicalism, but on the Left.

If you ask a college student what is an anarchist,, they will automatically say the radical leftist kind.

How do you know this?

Publius219 says: To blame pot and not blame guns is a sure sign of idiocy.

Guns don’t kill people do. It was Loughner not his gun that did the killing, the gun was the tool he used to administer the killing.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy

First definition is “an absence of government.”

Latin2 said:
But to blame the Tea Party and Palin without any evidence first was very wrong. You wait till more facts start coming in like what he watched, what his friends and family say and what was his hobbies, and then you can make that statement.

I think the problem with some on the Left just because he was WHITE and shooter that he was a right winger…THAT IS RACIST.

It had nothing to do with the color of the kids skin. With us rational people it had to do with that she had her office vandalized and received threats after the Health Care vote in which she voted yes.

And you call the Left loons….

Don’t most teabaggers fake idiocy or is it for real?

Latin2 said:
I just know that one of his friends said he ‘fancied himself” an anarchist, and his friend was of college age. Many of today’s college students associate ‘anarchism’ with radicalism, but on the Left.

If you ask a college student what is an anarchist,, they will automatically say the radical leftist kind.

I’m a college student and I don’t think anarchism is left or right.

Crazy like a FOX.

rockloper said:
Don’t most teabaggers fake idiocy or is it for real?

Visit conservapedia and get back to me.

Rants about the government = a crazy nut from the right.

paulmdoro said:
How do you know this?

uh…I know a lot of students. I work with them, and because I watch the news and saw one of the people who knew him say he was into Anarchism…and another friends said he was “radical” and a “leftist”. Ask a college student what an Anarchist is and see what they tell you?

You put those to two “anarchism” and “radical, Leftist” and what you get. Then you add his video of him burning the flag, and listening to Anti-flag, and watching Ziegest movies you start getting a picture of someone who was disturbed AND into Anarchism.

Latin2 said:
The shooter loved Anti-Flag, which is like a Rage Against the Machine…AN RADICAL LEFTIST ANARCHIST BAND…from the L.A. Times;

“The Communist Manifesto” is one of the books he favored, and a former high school friend reported on Twitter that Loughner was a “pot head” whose tastes ran to Jimi Hendrix, the Doors and Anti-Flag a radical leftist punk band whose music focuses on themes of corporate greed, U.S. foreign policy and opposition to war.”

Maybe the mixture of Radical LEFTIST Anarchism and mental illness motivated him to shot the highest government official in his district.?

Anarchists are anti-government and want to take to the streets to get revolution and believe in doing it in an aggressive violent manner.

Congresswoman might have been that symbol of government and the shooter in his mental illness could have wanted to do some sort of anarchism.

That could have been the motivate. The mix of anarchism anti-government and mental problems could’ve cause him to go off.

He was watching Ziegest videos on Youtube about how the Illuminati, Haliburton, Bush and the “new order order” and anti-religion and anti-government conspiracies are prevalent.

I am not blaming the music, because the guy was just crazy, but in his own mind that is what he might have been tripping on.

Well hell if you want to play that game he was also obsessed with the gold standard and despised the Dollar.

Now hmmmm….who does that sound like?

Latin2 said:
uh…I know a lot of students. I work with them, and because I watch the news and saw one of the people who knew him say he was into Anarchism…and another friends said he was “radical” and a “leftist”. Ask a college student what an Anarchist is and see what they tell you?

You put those to two “anarchism” and “radical, Leftist” and what you get. Then you add his video of him burning the flag, and listening to Anti-flag, and watching Ziegest movies you start getting a picture of someone who was disturbed AND into Anarchism.

The definition of anarchism is an absence of government, so how can it be “leftist?”

I know a lot of students too, and my experience is totally different. Your anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

Friends have said he was not political.

Jackie is not faking her insanity.

Wisco said:
By this reasoning, Charles Manson should still be out walking the streets.

Huh?

Jackie_Treehorn said:
Well hell if you want to play that game he was also obsessed with the gold standard and despised the Dollar.

Now hmmmm….who does that sound like?

uh…a Liberal anarchist. I went to watch Ziegest movies on youtube…and they are RADICAL LEFTIST VIDEOS.

One of the videos is of the currency and how BUSH and CHENEY,, the Illumaniti, and the “New World Order” is destroying our currency. The videos are posted YEARS ago.

I guess you haven’t watched any Ziegest movies after it was reported HE WATCHED ZIEGEST movies on youtube.

paulmdoro said:
The definition of anarchism is an absence of government, so how can it be “leftist?”

I know a lot of students too, and my experience is totally different. Your anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

Friends have said he was not political.

In recent years he was not political…as he became more mentally unstable…but in 2007 he was described as RADICAL LEFTIST and into Anarchism…then in the last few years he became withdrawn.

Latin2 said:
uh…a Liberal anarchist. I went to watch Ziegest movies on youtube…and they are RADICAL LEFTIST VIDEOS.

One of the videos is of the currency and how BUSH and CHENEY,, the Illumaniti, and the “New World Order” is destroying our currency. The videos are posted YEARS ago.

I guess you haven’t watched any Ziegest movies after it was reported HE WATCHED ZIEGEST movies on youtube.

Abide by the words of your messiah:
“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions”

Latin2 said:
One of his friends said he fancied himself an anarchist, which is popular among many kids in Hish School

Fixed that for you.

Stephen Hogan said:
Hish School

High School, obviously.

How is what this ditz says relevant? She says she has not dated him in at least 3 years… since he was a teenager when she did and he is now 22…. even a slow person like me can figure that was at least 3 years ago or more likely, longer.
Maybe we can interview his kindergarten teacher for insight.

The guy is wacko. Simple. He is a nut job. Time for the mental institution for 40 years. Close the door and throw away the key and adios wacko.

Eric said:
Rants about the government = a crazy nut from the right.

Yeah, because there is no history before 1-20-09. Nobody ever ranted about the government when whoever that last President was was in office.

writer said:
Jackie is not faking her insanity.

1. He

2. I’ve been making it out for what it’s been….he’s a loon. Not putting him a political party bases off whacky internet videos that have no merit.

Oh wait you’re a rightie. It’s just flat out fact you’re not living in the same reality as the other 6 billion people on this planet.

Latin2 said:
In recent years he was not political…as he became more mentally unstable…but in 2007 he was described as RADICAL LEFTIST and into Anarchism…then in the last few years he became withdrawn.

You can’t be a radical leftist and an anarchist! That is contradictory. Anarchy = absence of government. Is it really that hard to understand?

I wish we could say the same for the King, Dave Noland, SarahP., the Reasonable Lib, Jackie _Treehorn, et al.

Latin2 said:
Sometimes Mental illness appears later on. Many people don’t show signs until they reach their twenties. There are small signs mental illness and then they PROGRESSVEly get worse.

Like many of the Liberal posters on here.

Schizophrenia tends to develop between the age range of 18 to 25. It’s pretty rare for the disease to manifest outside of that range.

Latin2 said:
If you ask a college student what is an anarchist,, they will automatically say the radical leftist kind.

I just asked a college student and she said that you’re retarded…RADICALLY RETARDED.

Latin2 said:
uh…a Liberal anarchist. I went to watch Ziegest movies on youtube…and they are RADICAL LEFTIST VIDEOS.

One of the videos is of the currency and how BUSH and CHENEY,, the Illumaniti, and the “New World Order” is destroying our currency. The videos are posted YEARS ago.

I guess you haven’t watched any Ziegest movies after it was reported HE WATCHED ZIEGEST movies on youtube.

And anarchists favor the gold standard how again?

The_Reasonable_Lib said:
Abide by the words of your messiah:
“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions”

I guess you didn’t read my posts. I said he is guilty and it is because of his mental illness, but there are things that make a crazy person target certain things.

As his friends say he started to get more and more into watching Ziegest movies on youtbe…uh…do you even know what those are?

I watched some last night after it was said by one of his friends that the shooter really got into them…and I have not seen ONE of those videos with Tea Party people, or Fox New…in fact in one they attack Fox News.

philipjames said:
How is what this ditz says relevant? She says she has not dated him in at least 3 years… since he was a teenager when she did and he is now 22…. even a slow person like me can figure that was at least 3 years ago or more likely, longer.
Maybe we can interview his kindergarten teacher for insight.

Right. Loughner is at the tail end of the usual time of onset for paranoid schizophrenia. He could well have been relatively normal a few years ago, and completely out of his gourd now. Which she sort of notes:

That said, Figueroa admits that, when she last saw Loughner three or four months ago, he was a “different person” than the boy she dated as a teen.

Then there’s the fact that he’s not going to meet the legal definition of insanity which that that he was unable to determine right from wrong. That letter they found will cook his goose in that regard. He knew what he was doing.

Hugo Daun said:
I just asked a college student and she said that you’re retarded…RADICALLY RETARDED.

That is because you’re a liar…lol

Jackie says:

Well hell if you want to play that game he was also obsessed with the gold standard and despised the Dollar.

Now hmmmm….who does that sound like?

Ah, George Soros actually.

One of my high school friends who was very intelligent experimented with drugs and shrooms in his first year in college and basically became schizophrenic just like Loughner. He could function for the most part at a low level in society and many people wouldn’t know he had problems, but as I reconnected with him when he came home he began telling me these fantastic stories of these adventures he had which were utterly impossible. I was a young kid at the time, but mutual friends had warned me that he wasn’t the same kid we went to school with and that he was crazy. Once I picked him up to go to a party and his father pulled me aside and told me that if he began acting weird to bring him home immediately. We were around the same age as Loughner at the time. So after reading about Loughner, I don’t have any doubts that he lost grips with reality and became schizophrenic. I’ve seen it first hand.

Here saying the BUSH and our government was behind 9/11;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_E4N5YIycI

Here saying that Christianity is fake;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw&feature=related

Note that the movies were posted in 2007

…when WHO was in office?

Wisco said:

LibertySister said:
We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. That each individual is accountable for his or her actions.”
-Ronald Reagan

By this reasoning, Charles Manson should still be out walking the streets.

Truly one of the least intelligent responses ever. Manson was the person who conceived, planned and ordered his clan to kill everyone at Tate’s residence and even participated in the choosing and tying up of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca before having his clan murder them.

The above movies are only a few of the Ziestgest movies on youtube…POSTED ON YOUTUBE IN 2007….not 2009 or 2010

Seeing 2012 From My Window said:
Jackie says:

Well hell if you want to play that game he was also obsessed with the gold standard and despised the Dollar.

Now hmmmm….who does that sound like?

Ah, George Soros actually.

Or someone that whores out the gold standard twice a day to millions of lunatics like yourself.

Now once again because you righties are so edumacated…..how do anarchists favor the gold standard?

philipjames said:
How is what this ditz says relevant? She says she has not dated him in at least 3 years… since he was a teenager when she did and he is now 22…. even a slow person like me can figure that was at least 3 years ago or more likely, longer.
Maybe we can interview his kindergarten teacher for insight.

The guy is wacko. Simple. He is a nut job. Time for the mental institution for 40 years. Close the door and throw away the key and adios wacko.

You didnt have any problem believing any of the other people who knew him years ago that said things that fit your narrative……now you got a problem with this girl…..hahahaha….truth is he was a right wing radical conservative…..just like you

Defination of ANARCHISM:

Anarchism is a political philosophy which considers the state undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful, and instead promotes a stateless society, or anarchy.[1][2] It seeks to diminish or even abolish authority in the conduct of human relations.[3] Anarchists widely disagree on what additional criteria are required in anarchism. The Oxford Companion to Philosophy says, “there is no single defining position that all anarchists hold, and those considered anarchists at best share a certain family resemblance.”[4]

There are many types and traditions of anarchism, some of which are mutually exclusive.[5] Strains of anarchism have been divided into the categories of social and individualist anarchism or similar dual classifications.[6][7] Anarchism is often considered to be a radical left-wing ideology,[8][9] and much of anarchist economics and anarchist legal philosophy reflect anti-statist interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism or participatory economics. However, anarchism has always included an individualist strain [10] supporting a market economy and private property, or morally unrestrained egoism.[11][12] Some individualist anarchists are also socialists.[13][14]

doesn’t that sound like the shooter’s interests?

I think one of the issues not being touched on is the way we treat our mentally ill. Frankly, we do not do a good job.

The stigma is still very prevalent and we do not have a significant public mental health system. Instead, many of our mentally ill are either in prison because of drug use (frequently as a means of self-medication) or behavior that could have been prevented through treatment, or they make up the 50% of our homeless.

For a third time…..he favored the gold standard over the dollar. Economic systems are a major part of anarchism.

Now where do anarchists favor the gold standard?

If she was that guy’s girlfriend, then she must be a nut also,

That said, Figueroa admits that, when she last saw Loughner three or four months ago, he was a “different person” than the boy she dated as a teen.”

Dear, he was a teen 3 years ago- anything can happen in 3 years.

OxyCon said:
One of my high school friends who was very intelligent experimented with drugs and shrooms in his first year in college and basically became schizophrenic just like Loughner. He could function for the most part at a low level in society and many people wouldn’t know he had problems, but as I reconnected with him when he came home he began telling me these fantastic stories of these adventures he had which were utterly impossible. I was a young kid at the time, but mutual friends had warned me that he wasn’t the same kid we went to school with and that he was crazy. Once I picked him up to go to a party and his father pulled me aside and told me that if he began acting weird to bring him home immediately. We were around the same age as Loughner at the time. So after reading about Loughner, I don’t have any doubts that he lost grips with reality and became schizophrenic. I’ve seen it first hand.

I’d like to make it clear that doing drugs does not cause people to become schizophrenic. The exact cause of the illness is not known, but it does have a strong genetic component, occurs in 1% of the population regardless of culture, and is correlated to respiratory issues on part of the mother during the 2nd trimester.

Drugs CAN cause psychosis, but it is usually occurs in extreme addicts and only lasts for a short period of time. Alcohol withdrawal, for example, can cause psychosis. So can acute methamphetamine and cocaine abuse. But there is no evidence that drug use can cause schizophrenia, an extremely debilitating life-long illness.

Jackie_Treehorn said:
For a third time…..he favored the gold standard over the dollar. Economic systems are a major part of anarchism.

Now where do anarchists favor the gold standard?

well my dear….right here…on this Zietgest video put up on 2007;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A&feature=related

You see the Anarchists BLAME THE BANKERS, who they say control the government…you know the CAPITALISTS. The “international” Bankers who want WAR for profits….now what does that sound like? How our government used ‘false flag’ and set ups to get into wars. All our wars, like the current one, is for the CAPITALIST bankers.

In this video you see it for yourself…probably the same Zietgest video the shooter watched.

..and how we are not using the gold standard and our country uses wars for those greedy CAPITALIST BANKERS.

The 15 minutes of the “left-wing pothead” is up. Let’s move on.

BlackWidow said:
Guns, pot, Palin eyc are NOT responsible for this. Loughner is. Let’s put the responsibility where it belongs..

I’m sick of the hate speech. Pretty soon, there’s going to be people calling for Loughner’s death.

Stephen Hogan said:
I’d like to make it clear that doing drugs does not cause people to become schizophrenic.

Ha!

Next thing ya know, you will be claiming that vaccinations don’t cause Autism.

You see…when you start gathering the FACTS of what his friends and family said you can see he was not into any CONSERVATIVE rhetoric, but was totally into radical Leftist anarchism.

His friends and acquaintances say he was interested in watching Zietgest videos and so far ever video is against Capitalism and Christianity. All one has to do is follow the facts as they are reported.

Just because the shooter mentioned “the gold standard” does mean he was a Conservative…you see Leftists were also interested in the gold standard but have a different conclusion, as you can see in the video. The Leftists blame CAPITALISM and bankers for the fall of the gold standard and how they control the government.

At the end of the video you can see that they blame CAPITALISTS for wars and all the banking problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A&feature=related

ProObamaAgenda says:

You didnt have any problem believing any of the other people who knew him years ago that said things that fit your narrative

And you had not problem believing the, “Palin is a murderer” meme pushed by the left.

The major contributing factor to these sorts of events in our society is this proposterously asinine pop culture that has been engendered by the likes of all of the liberals in this country that think anything goes. The medium of entertainment be it television of big screen is absolutely sodden with violence and the the wholesale application of armed force to resolve problems. I am not a gamer, too old, but I can guess these youngsters being fed a daily diet of visual garbage can hardly expect not to be affected in some way. Children killing their parents, their siblings, their neighbors seemingly without remorse. Bruce Willis, a B-actor at best , is a multi-millionaire having ridden this garbage truck to riches. The worst howlers about social conditons in this country are the very ones that have engendered them. The onset of the sixties was the startline of decline and morality in this country. Remember? A new generation with a new explanation. That explanation has as much value as Mao’s great leap forward. Drugs, crime, irresponsiblity, a population possessed of an ignorance beyond believe or description. Believe me, I know – I am a non-participating member of the original cast. That ignorance is going to be the noose around our cultural neck. Don’t believe it? Do you own home work. These things didn’t happen when I was a lad.

notsofast said:
Ha!

Next thing ya know, you will be claiming that vaccinations don’t cause Autism.

Ha!

The old drugs claim again, if this were true most people in this country would have went on violent rampages that periled in comparison to this one due to the large amounts of cannabis and mushrooms we ingested during our youth.

Latin2 said:
You see…when you start gathering the FACTS of what his friends and family said you can see he was not into any CONSERVATIVE rhetoric, but was totally into radical Leftist anarchism.

That’s your opinion, and the evidence is flimsy. His friends say he was not into politics and he was an independent. Anarchists don’t bother with political parties. You get an A for effort though. You are really trying to convince yourself that he was a “radical leftist.” If that helps you sleep at night…

Latin2 said:
The Leftists blame CAPITALISM and bankers for the fall of the gold standard and how they control the government.

Speaking as a lefty, most of us don’t have any issue with capitalism. In fact, many of us, such as myself, are firm proponents of capitalism. However, we tend to take issue with corporate capitalism.

Stephen Hogan said:
Speaking as a lefty, most of us don’t have any issue with capitalism. In fact, many of us, such as myself, are firm proponents of capitalism. However, we tend to take issue with corporate capitalism.

Exactly. Doesn’t fit with Latin’s worldview though.

Most truly insane people have and extremely difficult time formulating and implementing a plan such as this attack. Mentally ill – probably. Insane to the point of being unable to recognize the consequences of his actions and aid his own defense – that will take some acting.

Jackie_Treehorn said:
Well hell if you want to play that game he was also obsessed with the gold standard and despised the Dollar.
Now hmmmm….who does that sound like?

George Soros? Maybe?

paulmdoro said:
That’s your opinion, and the evidence is flimsy. His friends say he was not into politics and he was an independent. Anarchists don’t bother with political parties. You get an A for effort though. You are really trying to convince yourself that he was a “radical leftist.” If that helps you sleep at night…

lol…not really, one friend said he did not listen to talk radio or watch tv.

One aquintance said he tried to get him into politics…and that was 6 months ago (the guy with the pin hair)

One friend said he thought he of himself as an ANARCHIST.

One friend said he liked to watch Zietgest (so I went and watched Zietgest movies on youtube)

One girl who knew him said he was Radical, a Leftist, and quite Liberal.

So if you look at that. It shows before he went on his mental spiral downward…he was a Radical Leftist.

So much for him being apolitical, he shot a politician, HELLO!

ABQ said:
Most truly insane people have and extremely difficult time formulating and implementing a plan such as this attack.

Yeah, loading a gun and pulling the trigger… That takes precise planning.

The friend did not say that he didn’t go on the computer and not watch videos. He just said he did not listen to TALK RADIO or watch TV.

Latin2 said:
lol…not really, one friend said he did not listen to talk radio or watch tv.

One aquintance said he tried to get him into politics…and that was 6 months ago (the guy with the pin hair)

One friend said he thought he of himself as an ANARCHIST.

One friend said he liked to watch Zietgest (so I went and watched Zietgest movies on youtube)

One girl who knew him said he was Radical, a Leftist, and quite Liberal.

So if you look at that. It shows before he went on his mental spiral downward…he was a Radical Leftist.

Only in your mind is that true. Reality isn’t in alignment with that. If it makes you feel better though, believe what you want. The truth is not your primary concern here. Taking partisan cheap shots is.

…oops or watch NEWS on TV.

Many of my Liberal acquaintances don’t watch Cable News TV or news because they believe it is controlled BY THE RIGHT, and they definitely HATE talk radio and don’t listen to that.

paulmdoro said:
Only in your mind is that true. Reality isn’t in alignment with that. If it makes you feel better though, believe what you want. The truth is not your primary concern here. Taking partisan cheap shots is.

lol….no.

That is what HAS BEEN REPORTED..

For someone who trolls on a cable news site…you sure don’t watch or listen to the news.

LOL

Latin2 said:
You see…when you start gathering the FACTS of what his friends and family said you can see he was not into any CONSERVATIVE rhetoric, but was totally into radical Leftist anarchism.

His friends and acquaintances say he was interested in watching Zietgest videos and so far ever video is against Capitalism and Christianity. All one has to do is follow the facts as they are reported.

Just because the shooter mentioned “the gold standard” does mean he was a Conservative…you see Leftists were also interested in the gold standard but have a different conclusion, as you can see in the video. The Leftists blame CAPITALISM and bankers for the fall of the gold standard and how they control the government.

At the end of the video you can see that they blame CAPITALISTS for wars and all the banking problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A&feature=related

But anarchists dont. Anarchists use Mutuialism as their economic standard. not the dollar nor gold.

Wow blew that one right out of the water….

Latin2 said:
lol….no.

That is what HAS BEEN REPORTED..

For someone who trolls on a cable news site…you sure don’t watch or listen to the news.

LOL

Your posts speak for themselves. You only look for evidence that might support what you already believe, that he was a “radical leftist.” You discount anything else and it doesn’t matter how flimsy the evidence is.

Jackie_Treehorn said:
But anarchists dont. Anarchists use Mutuialism as their economic standard. not the dollar nor gold.

Wow blew that one right out of the water….

Still trying…did you happen to see the END OF THAT VIDEO?

Who did ZIETGEST blame? Did he blame the government? No, he blamed the BANKERS and CAPITALISTS.

wow, I guess Liberalism IS a mental disorder…it stops them from seeing the truth.

paulmdoro said:
Your posts speak for themselves. You only look for evidence that might support what you already believe, that he was a “radical leftist.” You discount anything else and it doesn’t matter how flimsy the evidence is.

LOL!!!

I use the evidence gathered…unlikel the Liberals and the Liberal MSM who went after Palin and Conservatives WITHOUT ANY PROOF.

Liberalism IS a mental disorder…it prevents them from seeing the truth.

writer said:
Jackie is not faking her insanity.

You got that right. The problem is, the shock treatments are not working.

Jackie_Treehorn said:
1. He 2. I’ve been making it out for what it’s been….he’s a loon. Not putting him a political party bases off whacky internet videos that have no merit. Oh wait you’re a rightie. It’s just flat out fact you’re not living in the same reality as the other 6 billion people on this planet.

You not only hide behind a Palin photo, you hide behind a female name. Looks like INSANITY to me.

Latin2 said:
LOL!!!

I use the evidence gathered…unlikel the Liberals and the Liberal MSM who went after Palin and Conservatives WITHOUT ANY PROOF.

Liberalism IS a mental disorder…it prevents them from seeing the truth.

You sure like all caps and name-calling.

What about the evidence that suggests he was not political or affiliated with any political party? The evidence does not prove he was a “radical leftist.” It proves he was disturbed. You just want to believe he’s a “radical leftist” because it allows you to take cheap shots and make sweeping generalizations. You also like anecdotal evidence like “when I was a college student they said…” which proves absolutely nothing.

Latin2 said:
..and how we are not using the gold standard and our country uses wars for those greedy CAPITALIST BANKERS.

Just as Palin isn’t to blame for the acts of a madman, neither is any philosophy or ideology. You could make the case that Loughner was AGAINST whatever he perceived that Giffords stands for. But you can’t make much of a case that he was ideologically opposed to what the 9 year old girl stood for. And if I understand the facts correctly, he shot that poor, innocent chid at point blank range.

With that aside, what are you talking about in the sentence I quoted? It sounds like you don’t knonw what the gold standard actually was. At one time, the value of a dollar was pegged to a FIXED WEIGHT of gold. You could take 20 paper dollars and redeem them for an ounce of gold. When this was the case, government COULD NOT counterfeit money, as they do now, because they needed gold for every dollar that was in circulation. Meaning, they could not print money or create electronic account funds out of thin air.

Now, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury create money out of thin air and call it “monetary policy.” And every time they do it, the value of every dollar falls, and it STEALS from everyone who holds any dollars. They will land on you with 4 feet if you counterfeit money, but they do it all the time, on a massive scale.

This is why the dollar didn’t lose all that much value during the gold standard, and since the creation of the Fed in 1913, the dollar has lost about 97% of its value, and is losing more every day. People don’t notice much when inflation doesn’t move too quickly, but they will in a couple years when a hot dog costs $20.

As for whether the bankers own the government, take a look at the bailouts. Who won? Who lost? Who got what they wanted? The banks won. The taxpayers got taken to the cleaners.

As for war as a for-profit industry, it is HUGE. Undeniably huge. Since 2001, we’re spending an extra couple hundred billion a per year, no? Trust me, if you don’t think people are all over this money like leeches, you just don’t know what happens in a 50 mile radius of DC.

Ever heard a guy running a business say “last quarter was terrible, we need to get this war cranked back up”, all with a big grin on his face? I have. There are a lot of people who just want the money to roll in. And they are quite willing to abuse our brave young men and women, sending them into meat grinders, just to keep the money rolling in. They’re happy to uncritically accept any nonsense propaganda about the common good and security. Just make sure the checks clear. Oh yeah, and to do that, please go print some more money out of thin air.

I suspect that if anarchists want the gold standard, they do so for the same reason the Founders did. It serves to keep a control on the value of currency so nobody, including banks and governments, may counterfeit it. When banks, governments, or anyone else can get away with creating money out of thin air, they do, and they ultimately destroy that currency.

None of which has anythind to do with the rationale of anyone who would deliberately murder an innocent nine-year-old girl at point blank range. If Loughner was truly committed to some ideology, he’d have killed someone who represents that ideology and not a bunch of innocents. His insane selection of victims reveals the insanity of his motivation. If he shoots some politician and nobody else, the debate on this could be different.

BTW, I should have mentioned “capitalism” in the post above. Capitalism is the only moral approach to economics. Basically, it means that people OWN the fruits of their own labor. If you work for pay, you own the pay you receive. If you run a business that makes something, you own the products that business creates. And if you sell those products, you OWN the money you got from selling them.

All of which is different from banking cartels. ALL of the banks we have are in a cartel under the Federal Reserve, whether they like it or not. There are pleny of people in banking who just want to make an honest living providing banking services to people. That’s great, and they should earn what the market will bear. But the Federal Reserrve system allows for counterfeiting, pure and simple. Conterfeiting is NOT CAPITALISM, it is in fact, the very opposite of capitalism.

So, when people speak of 1.greedy 2.capitalist 3; bankers, people need to sort this one out properly. Anyone can be greedy. Who cares? Make me a good burger at a price I’m willing to pay and I will pay it. If you are greedy, I couldn’t care less. You produced something of value that I willingly bought. Greed doesn’t matter, what you DO matters.

Some bankers are capitalists. They should be able to make a living based on pleasing willing customers. No problem. That’s a profit they earn like anyone else.

The banking cartel under the Federal Reserve does not earn when it creates money out of thin air. Rather, it simply takes from the value of the money everyone else holds. Capitalism says those people OWNED THEIR MONEY, and thus that they are victims of theft, and that the Federal Reserve system is STEALING. So, you have to look closely at the bankers. Honest banking is an honest profession. The Federal Reserve cartel and a lack of sound money are the problems, and those problems are NOT capitalism, they are the opposite of capitalism.

Latin2 said:
The shooter loved Anti-Flag, which is like a Rage Against the Machine…AN RADICAL LEFTIST ANARCHIST BAND…from the L.A. Times;

“The Communist Manifesto” is one of the books he favored, and a former high school friend reported on Twitter that Loughner was a “pot head” whose tastes ran to Jimi Hendrix, the Doors and Anti-Flag a radical leftist punk band whose music focuses on themes of corporate greed, U.S. foreign policy and opposition to war.”

Maybe the mixture of Radical LEFTIST Anarchism and mental illness motivated him to shot the highest government official in his district.?

Anarchists are anti-government and want to take to the streets to get revolution and believe in doing it in an aggressive violent manner.

Congresswoman might have been that symbol of government and the shooter in his mental illness could have wanted to do some sort of anarchism.

That could have been the motivate. The mix of anarchism anti-government and mental problems could’ve cause him to go off.

He was watching Ziegest videos on Youtube about how the Illuminati, Haliburton, Bush and the “new order order” and anti-religion and anti-government conspiracies are prevalent.

I am not blaming the music, because the guy was just crazy, but in his own mind that is what he might have been tripping on.

Yeah if I were you I would be real worried too, I think this ex girlfriend is gonna spill the beans on his politics and you guys are going crazy doing damage control. If I were you I would probably be doing the same thing, I don’t really blame you. But really Jared Loughner’s politics are going to come out eventually and when they do, look out teabags.

Anarchism is a wisp of fantasy in the minds of idiots. It’s nothing but a transition from something that exists to something that the so-called “anarchists” would like to exist, in this case, (although most of the “anarchists” don’t even know) an oligarchy of Ivy League elitists. Never has a culture sank to anarchy, where some small group just didn’t just happen to be there to “bring order”. It’s the way these things work. Go figure. The idiots who have fun painting their cute little circle “A”s on stuff are so unaware of harsh reality. Pathetic little morons, really.

Mr.Papshmer said:
Anarchism is a wisp of fantasy in the minds of idiots. It’s nothing but a transition from something that exists to something that the so-called “anarchists” would like to exist, in this case, (although most of the “anarchists” don’t even know) an oligarchy of Ivy League elitists. Never has a culture sank to anarchy, where some small group just didn’t just happen to be there to “bring order”. It’s the way these things work. Go figure. The idiots who have fun painting their cute little circle “A”s on stuff are so unaware of harsh reality. Pathetic little morons, really.

Agreed. I have seen two sorts of anarchists far more than any kid. (To be fair, the two groups I have most often observed probably give true anarchists a bad name.) The first group says only what it are against, and not what it is for. The second don’t even know what ‘anarchy’ means. If you get them to talk about what they want, one can only conclude they think ‘anarchist’ is an edgy way to say ‘socialist’.. The latter group is particularly fond of drawing little ‘A’s on everthing.

Again, my apologies to true anarchists. It IS annoying when idiots co-opt words.

LOL, I SERIOUSLY need an edit function. And to replace my broken ‘N’ key. Let me try that again.

Agreed. I have seen two sorts of anarchists far more than any kind. (To be fair, the two groups I have most often observed probably give true anarchists a bad name.) The first group says only what it is against, and not what it is for. The second group doesn’t even know what ‘anarchy’ means. If you get them to talk about what they want, one can only conclude they think ‘anarchist’ is an edgy way to say ’socialist’. The latter group is particularly fond of drawing little ‘A’s on everthing.

Again, my apologies to true anarchists. It IS annoying when idiots co-opt words. And symbols, for that matter.

Trying to rationalize and irrational act is futile. His behavior was unstable and despite claims either Left or Right – he clearly went to the extreme end of both, throw in paranoia, mix in his personal interaction, previously with Gabrielle Gifford and you get a toxic mix.
This ex-girlfriend dated him as a teenager! -hardly the age of solid radical political thought. Even she admitted that he was different than she remembered – so anything she says is irrelevant ,except to prove how far off he eventually had become.
The media is on overdrive to interview and undercover anyone who has ever interacted with Jared. Next up, will no doubt be his preschool teacher that will claim he wouldn’t share the building blocks.

Research has shown that the pot of today could make deranged people psychotics. As well he was apparently smoking Salvia which is more potent than LSD according to research.

“Faking insanity” to whom? I thought the guy wasn’t talking.

ok moving on…the boy had problems…did not trust government….now government job is to bring back trust

I don’t know if he’s insane or not, but that great big GRIN on his face says that he knows something that none of the rest of us do and he’s laughing at us. This whole affair being weird and quite possibly a “false flag operation”, maybe what he knows is that he won’t really get in trouble. Either he’ll go join Tim McVeigh on that island sipping drinks with umbrellas in it (no, Tim was never executed) or he might even get the John Wilkes Booth treatment, being sent to China for a new life there (No, he wasn’t executed, either, and one of his relatives even wrote a book about it.)

Whoever has been pushing the mouth pieces to the brink is responsible and they are in hiding as usually happens. The worst thing any of us can do is speak while emotionally hurt, disappointed, angry or just not even rested. We all speak more accurate when we feel pleasant and are not in need of anything. Yesterday, while just sitting in the recliner meditating, I began to think of this shooting situation in Arizona, every time they show a photo of the shooter, they show the one of him that looks like a smiling clown or mentally challenged with a weird expression on his face. This face seems to be hammered continually without other photos that could have been shown along with others.
None of us want media censorship by the government, but in this case I would question, is the news media censoring their own reporting by zeroing in on making this guy look crazier than he really is? If so, this would be a travesty of justice, trying to make this guy look crazier which would help him in his defense, allowing an easy way out of the death penalty and receiving a lighter sentence because of a predetermined mental sickness. The news media, one of the richest businesses in the entire world, through censoring their own reporting, can influence whether a person looks guilty or innocent. This can help a killer to escape justice from media poor reporting.
I would like to know if the shooter and/or his parents voted and if so, were they Democrats or Republicans. Why do I ask this? When questioned about my political affiliations in a strange crowd I profess to be an independent, this will stop a person from hammering me for being a Republican or Democrat. This is my security protection until I know if I am talking to a nut case person or an intelligent, fair minded individual especially if you are at a gathering where alcohol drinks are served.
I also know you can tick a person off on the telephone without fear of physical contact. You can tick a person off through a TV broadcasting using an anchor or commentator without fear of physical contact.
My past life exposure tell me, if you are part of a group or organization and you do something stupid, aggressive or blaming the entire group will look bad because of you actions. This is why I believe some bad mouth news anchor and commentator on radio and TV, including roaming groups of political activist with guns, nasty words, signs and actions, may not realize it but they are spreading fear which breeds hate and retribution. Many of these same people are Christians, especially Sarah Palin, They should all know; “a kind work turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger.”
Anger in some or many people will take you to all the wrong places.

Campus police at Pima County Community College collected 51 pages of reports on Mr. Loughner in his last two years at the school. He began to frighten teachers and other students, speaking of blowing up babies and argueing incoherently in class. The boy’s nuts!

Jackie_Treehorn said:
But I thought the Left love the government and depend on it for everything?

Jesus you people can’t even make up your fucking minds….

To be real there are people on both the “Extreme Left” and Extreme Right” that would love nothing better than a little bit of well placed violence to an all out war for the same and opposite reason. Both sides of the extreme feel the government isn’t moving fast enough in one direction or another. I feel for the most part the reason you don’t see more violence protect and outright violence is because neither side wants to be blamed for jumping first and failing. And by failing I mean losing he PR battle of the press and American people to whatever cause they claim to support.

The vase majority of people are sane enough to know an armed revolution is serious business and needs a popular support.that’s not so easy to get. And to get that support conditions have to be either perceived to be really really bad or are really really bad. I mean we all know even in the Great Depression which was practically the worse time of our history. Especially combined with one of our worst weather / man made ecological disasters called the “Dust Bowl” and we did not have an armed revolution. After the dismal failure of Hoover’s tariffs and other inactions and wrong policies the people voted out the Republican in Congress and the Presidency between 1930 and 1932. Just so you know Roosevelt did some good but in my opinion was probably even a more dismal failure than Hoover because he and his administration had more time to do more harm. With the help of congress the federal government grew several fold. But to the point, the people decided not a gun. The sanity of the majority of all sides hold any extreme groups in check.

So even if some extreme groups out there wants to have a brawl or 2 or even an all out war they know the fight at this time would not even come close to having popular support. But both groups left or right have those more than a few disparate and or frustrated quacks and individuals could act alone. There is nothing in a free society to prevent that. Believe it or not if these individuals are part of an extreme group the group themselves would try to hold that individual in check for the time being. But neither group couldn’t stop an unknown insane sympathizer of their cause from acting.

Now, given our history an armed civil war is not likely unless things get really really bad. One way for things to get that bad is for us as a country to go broke to the point no one or no country will lend us any more credit. That’s it, no more access to money other than extreme cuts and or printing money. Government would be forced to cut so deep they would be force to shut down many parts of government and lay-off federal employees in recorded numbers. People would be getting only some portions of whatever government dole they were own whether it be social-security checks or welfare checks or earned government petitions from the military or any other part of government. Or they could print a massive amounts of money. One, the cuts, would lead to protest, some violent, and riots and would have a lot of pissed people on their hands. The other remedy would be to print a massive of amount of money and cause hyper-inflation which would piss off even more people than the cuts would. And if both are done it would piss off everybody. The perceived or real instability caused by either of these actions may cause the government to act in other ways. Like limiting freedoms like speech, the right to strike, the right to peaceful assemble, the right to guns further pissing off more people and more radicals.

The more people because hungry, disparate and scared the more toward violence they may turn. Then the people either learn that what the bigger government gets the more power they control and what they once provided can be taken away and that includes all the doles from unemployment, welfare, social security to our freedoms. We cold start moving away from big government control back to smaller Federal Government and more States rights and sovereignty or we can keep going along thinking the Big Government is the answer but just a different kind of big Government. That other kind of big government is generally called Marxism. That when we becomes slaves or if not a slave a puppet used by the government. Either that or they throw you in jail.

The problem of some liberals is that they think conservatives are generally feeble minded. Even those only 20% of Americans voters call themselves liberals they at least in part believe they know best, they are the ones with the so called intellectuals on there side. The professors all over academia and teachers all over the public schools and the liberal press are the largest group of liberals that feel conservatives are stupid. The other liberals are the people that have over the years become dependent on government or know they will be dependent on them soon. One liberal / socialist strategy to get as many people beholding to government as possibly. And to the extreme break the system from within by allowing our government debt to sky rocket. The problem conservative have is that they themselves have been just as guilty of the same over spending as they accuse the liberal of doing.

We are at the point where we can not grow ourselves out of this hole or in this political climate cut enough to get out of this hole. We most do both. Now the only way to get enough growth to even come close to what we need is to crap the current income tax system and replacing with the Fair Tax. This is the only tax plan being proposed that would bring manufacturing back to our country in a big way and provide sufficient growth to start
our country’s come back. We would still necessarily have to cut spending but the cuts would not be as painful.

For those of you who do not know enough about the Fair Tax Google it and or buy “The Fair Tax” book. If we are serious about competing with the rest of the world the FairTax is the best single thing we could do. Unlike the VAT (the value added tax) proposal which taxes production and keeps the current income systems in place the FairTax eliminates all federal income tax withholding including the Social Security and Medicare withholding and places a 23% tax on all retail purchases of new items and services and completely eliminates the need for the IRS. Now before any one starts criticizing the plan read about it first. There are a surprising number of so called liberals or people who lean to the left that like this plan. And yes there are features that keep the poor from paying taxes. It’s not a perfect plan to everyone but is the best for the vase majority of us. I too had many questions but in my research I know this is one of our answers to getting this country back to work .

Liberty_Hound said:
To be real there are people on both the “Extreme Left” and Extreme Right” that would love nothing better than a little bit of well placed violence to an all out war for the same and opposite reason. Both sides of the extreme feel the government isn’t moving fast enough in one direction or another. I feel for the most part the reason you don’t see more violence protect and outright violence is because neither side wants to be blamed for jumping first and failing. And by failing I mean losing he PR battle of the press and American people to whatever cause they claim to support. The vase majority of people are sane enough to know an armed revolution is serious business and needs a popular support.that’s not so easy to get. And to get that support conditions have to be either perceived to be really really bad or are really really bad. I mean we all know even in the Great Depression which was practically the worse time of our history. Especially combined with one of our worst weather / man made ecological disasters called the “Dust Bowl” and we did not have an armed revolution. After the dismal failure of Hoover’s tariffs and other inactions and wrong policies the people voted out the Republican in Congress and the Presidency between 1930 and 1932. Just so you know Roosevelt did some good but in my opinion was probably even a more dismal failure than Hoover because he and his administration had more time to do more harm. With the help of congress the federal government grew several fold. But to the point, the people decided not a gun. The sanity of the majority of all sides hold any extreme groups in check. So even if some extreme groups out there wants to have a brawl or 2 or even an all out war they know the fight at this time would not even come close to having popular support. But both groups left or right have those more than a few disparate and or frustrated quacks and individuals could act alone. There is nothing in a free society to prevent that. Believe it or not if these individuals are part of an extreme group the group themselves would try to hold that individual in check for the time being. But neither group couldn’t stop an unknown insane sympathizer of their cause from acting. Now, given our history an armed civil war is not likely unless things get really really bad. One way for things to get that bad is for us as a country to go broke to the point no one or no country will lend us any more credit. That’s it, no more access to money other than extreme cuts and or printing money. Government would be forced to cut so deep they would be force to shut down many parts of government and lay-off federal employees in recorded numbers. People would be getting only some portions of whatever government dole they were own whether it be social-security checks or welfare checks or earned government petitions from the military or any other part of government. Or they could print a massive amounts of money. One, the cuts, would lead to protest, some violent, and riots and would have a lot of pissed people on their hands. The other remedy would be to print a massive of amount of money and cause hyper-inflation which would piss off even more people than the cuts would. And if both are done it would piss off everybody. The perceived or real instability caused by either of these actions may cause the government to act in other ways. Like limiting freedoms like speech, the right to strike, the right to peaceful assemble, the right to guns further pissing off more people and more radicals. The more people because hungry, disparate and scared the more toward violence they may turn. Then the people either learn that what the bigger government gets the more power they control and what they once provided can be taken away and that includes all the doles from unemployment, welfare, social security to our freedoms. We cold start moving away from big government control back to smaller Federal Government and more States rights and sovereignty or we can keep going along thinking the Big Government is the answer but just a different kind of big Government. That other kind of big government is generally called Marxism. That when we becomes slaves or if not a slave a puppet used by the government. Either that or they throw you in jail. The problem of some liberals is that they think conservatives are generally feeble minded. Even those only 20% of Americans voters call themselves liberals they at least in part believe they know best, they are the ones with the so called intellectuals on there side. The professors all over academia and teachers all over the public schools and the liberal press are the largest group of liberals that feel conservatives are stupid. The other liberals are the people that have over the years become dependent on government or know they will be dependent on them soon. One liberal / socialist strategy to get as many people beholding to government as possibly. And to the extreme break the system from within by allowing our government debt to sky rocket. The problem conservative have is that they themselves have been just as guilty of the same over spending as they accuse the liberal of doing. We are at the point where we can not grow ourselves out of this hole or in this political climate cut enough to get out of this hole. We most do both. Now the only way to get enough growth to even come close to what we need is to crap the current income tax system and replacing with the Fair Tax. This is the only tax plan being proposed that would bring manufacturing back to our country in a big way and provide sufficient growth to startour country’s come back. We would still necessarily have to cut spending but the cuts would not be as painful. For those of you who do not know enough about the Fair Tax Google it and or buy “The Fair Tax” book. If we are serious about competing with the rest of the world the FairTax is the best single thing we could do. Unlike the VAT (the value added tax) proposal which taxes production and keeps the current income systems in place the FairTax eliminates all federal income tax withholding including the Social Security and Medicare withholding and places a 23% tax on all retail purchases of new items and services and completely eliminates the need for the IRS. Now before any one starts criticizing the plan read about it first. There are a surprising number of so called liberals or people who lean to the left that like this plan. And yes there are features that keep the poor from paying taxes. It’s not a perfect plan to everyone but is the best for the vase majority of us. I too had many questions but in my research I know this is one of our answers to getting this country back to work .

Great post. I’m with you on everything except the “fair tax.” Short reason why is that if you think about government taxation like you would an overhead rate in business, what is killing us is the percentage of our economy that is directed into unproductive use. The “fair tax” keeps the bloated government waste funded. What needs to happen is massive cuts to that overhead rate, massive cuts to the nonproductive part of the economy.

Now, if you’re saying the Fair Tax will encourage the right things and government will gradually shrink, I hear you but I am skeptical.

A good article on this is here, though it takes its time getting to the punchline, as most people don’t even know what is in the two proposals, much less the pros and cons: http://mises.org/daily/3389

That said, I am with you that the Fair Tax would be far better than what we have today, but I don’t think it gets us there. More key is the cutting side. But SIMPLE taxes would definitely help a lot. Great post.

Faking insanity?

A stake in the heart of the defense.