Muslim groups should apologize for radical Islam.

He has a delusional Messiah complex as it was mentioned in an earlier article, so he thinks he can utter any rubbish he wishes against different Religions. First it was the Mormons, now it’s the Muslims, tomorrow the Jews or Catholics? lay your bets.

gordonbloyershow said:
Muslim groups should apologize for radical Islam.

You should apologize to America for avoiding your call of duty.

skyfet said:
gordonbloyershow said:
Muslim groups should apologize for radical Islam.

You should apologize to America for avoiding your call of duty.

Actually, it makes me feel a bit safer that Marceaux, I mean Blower, dodged the draft.

skyfet said:
You should apologize to America for avoiding your call of duty.

You answered your call to duty- emptying out the bedpans at the old folks home, son.

The Real Royal King said:
Actually, it makes me feel a bit safer that Marceaux, I mean Blower, dodged the draft.

So did our current VP and Blower served in the same branch of the military that BHO did.

The Real Royal King said:
Actually, it makes me feel a bit safer that Marceaux, I mean Blower, dodged the draft.

Thats true, he might have spill the secrets to the Vietcong, if they refuse him his favorite meal.

notsofast said:
So did our current VP and Blower served in the same branch of the military that BHO did.

BHO was a child during the draft, dummy. Do I have to educate you about that also, simple math.

Where the heck did he come up with that ‘infidel’ word in the first place?

skyfet said:
BHO was a child during the draft, dummy. Do I have to educate you about that also, simple math.

LMAO

man are YOU stupid. I nver said BHO dodged the draft, I said Biden did.

LOL

You ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO STUPID!

notsofast said:
So did our current VP and Blower served in the same branch of the military that BHO did.

OK. Let’s be completely fair. Biden and Cheney both got the same number of student deferments. Later, Biden got a 4F for asthma. True, that doesn’t rise to the same level as Limbaugh’s butt boil, but still a 4F.

By the time our President was eligible to serve, we had an all-volunteer force.

There is, however, a general principle which holds here.

The Real Royal King said:
By the time our President was eligible to serve, we had an all-volunteer force.

And?

I couldn’t find an insult in what Huckabee said. So what does he have to apologize for? He stated his opinion that a Christian church dedicated to Christ should not let a Muslim group worship in their building. So what. It is his right to have that opinion.

Your own words against yourself, while you dig yourself deeper into the ignorant hole.

notsofast said:
Blower served in the same branch of the military that BHO did.

Trying to let Blower off by comparing his lack of service to BHO, which doesn’t hold water since the age gap is quite significant.

notsofast said:
LMAO

man are YOU stupid. I nver said BHO dodged the draft, I said Biden did.

LOL

You ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO STUPID!

Over here, you are trying to cover your embarrassment, by calling names and deflecting only on Biden, but it’s too late.

writer said:
Where the heck did he come up with that ‘infidel’ word in the first place?

The same place where he found fit to cast Mittens into the everlasting lake of fire.

In other words, Huckabee’s own compassionate buyble thumping.

writer said:
Where the heck did he come up with that ‘infidel’ word in the first place?

It’s obviously a Latin word, likely infedelis, most likely into English from French, probably infidele, but more likely infidèle, meaning something like “pagan”, and co-opted by Christians and Muslims to refer to non-believers.

You think C.A.I.R. might be exploiting religion to impose their left-wing Anti-American agenda?
- Like the NAACP does with race?
- Like LaRaza does with ethnicity?

skyfet said:
Trying to let Blower off by comparing his lack of service to BHO, which doesn’t hold water since the age gap is quite significant.

So Barry didn’t serve his country because he wasn’t FORCED to?
That’s even worse!

YOU ARE STILL SOOOOOOOOOOOO STUPID AND YOU ALWAYS WILL BE, SON!

What a relief. I couldn’t imagine Muslims ever referring to anyone as an infidel.

The Real Royal King said:
It’s obviously a Latin word, likely infedelis, most likely into English from French, probably infidele, but more likely infidèle, meaning something like “pagan”, and co-opted by Christians and Muslims to refer to non-believers.

He needs to pay you for the free education, or maybe next time he can just buy himself a dictionary.

notsofast said:
So Barry didn’t serve his country because he wasn’t FORCED to?
That’s even worse!

YOU ARE STILL SOOOOOOOOOOOO STUPID AND YOU ALWAYS WILL BE, SON!

Keep digging, keep embarrassing yourself.

Speaking of CAIR, here’s a delightful little clip of Allen West schooling their South Florida executive director on…Islam.

skyfet said:
skyfet says:
February 22, 2011 at 1:40 pm skyfet(Quote)
Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

YOU ARE THE EPITOME OF STUPIDITY, SON!

skyfet, as long as no one accuses Muslims of ever using that word, I’m good with it.

skyfet said:
He has a delusional Messiah complex as it was mentioned in an earlier article, so he thinks he can utter any rubbish he wishes against different Religions. First it was the Mormons, now it’s the Muslims, tomorrow the Jews or Catholics? lay your bets.

He’s got a ways to go to catch up to Maher. Question: Do Muslims refer to westerners as “infadels”?

Hey, did ya hear when people said Biden avoided the draft, Skyfet said “that’s because he likes bottled beer!”

LOL

Fuckabee should tell CAIR he’ll apologize just as soon as they call for religious equality in Saudi Arabia.

writer said:
skyfet, as long as no one accuses Muslims of ever using that word, I’m good with it.

Right. They use “kafir.”

infidel: one who does not believe in religion or who adheres to a religion other than one’s own.
From one infidel to another. apologize now or “I’ll kill you”. LMAO

gordonbloyershow said:
Muslim groups should apologize for radical Islam.

And your mother should apologize for your sad existence. How do you get through the day filled with that much hate?

writer said:
skyfet, as long as no one accuses Muslims of ever using that word, I’m good with it.

I’ve never heard Muslims refer to Jesus Christ as an Infidel. You can never (guarantee) you’d never come across such a statement. What next are you going to do to the Jews, who do not Believe Jesus was the Messiah.
Should we be expecting an American Inquisition?

The Huck make things up, am surprised people are defending him on this big lie of his. I didn’t see a lot of the phonies defend him when he was bashing the Mormons. I guess it’s an acceptable bigotry now in America to bash the Muslims.

So much for Freedom of Religion! Good luck to the Muslims in America, with a Political figure like the Huckstar in office, God knows what kind of legislation would be coming down.

NORBIT Jr. said:
You think C.A.I.R. might be exploiting religion to impose their left-wing Anti-American agenda?
- Like the NAACP does with race?
- Like LaRaza does with ethnicity?

Like NASCAR does with turning left?
Like A&P does with coffee?

NORBIT Jr. said:
You think C.A.I.R. might be exploiting religion to impose their left-wing Anti-American agenda?
- Like the NAACP does with race?
- Like LaRaza does with ethnicity?

Here we go again.

More of the same ignorant tripe claiming anyone not-white and non-xtian must be Anti-American.

No wonder the Fox gNOpig Propaganda Network is the pen of the birfhers.

skyfet said:
I’ve never heard Muslims refer to Jesus Christ as an Infidel. You can never (guarantee) you’d never come across such a statement. What next are you going to do to the Jews, who do not Believe Jesus was the Messiah.
Should we be expecting an American Inquisition?

The Huck make things up, am surprised people are defending him on this big lie of his. I didn’t see a lot of the phonies defend him when he was bashing the Mormons. I guess it’s an acceptable bigotry now in America to bash the Muslims.

So much for Freedom of Religion! Good luck to the Muslims in America, with a Political figure like the Huckstar in office, God knows what kind of legislation would be coming down.

In fact, while Islam does not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, it does recognize the historic Jesus as a prophet.

King, when you’re posting as Bovine, could you at least explain what a gNOPig is?

The Real Royal King said:
In fact, while Islam does not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, it does recognize the historic Jesus as a prophet.

I think they recognize him as the Messiah, try to google it. Huckabees action is not a surprise, he still has that hardcore evangelical trait in him. Someone needs to educate him before he runs for President that Article of the constitution separates the Church from state. Separation of Church and state is something that he has clearly forgotten. He needs to make up his mind, if he wants to be at the pulpit or in the white house.

skyfet said:
You should apologize to America for avoiding your call of duty.

Why do you lie all the time? Remember I use my REAL name so people can easily check that you are a liar. You just make yourself look stupid, sorry you are stupid.

GlennBovineKoldys said:
Here we go again. More of the same ignorant tripe claiming anyone not-white and non-xtian must be Anti-American. No wonder the Fox gNOpig Propaganda Network is the pen of the birfhers.

Nice Democratic talking point, but it’s irrelevant to what was posted.

Here’s an example of the “EXPLOITATION” (hint: key word) of Race by the naacp – The TV ad they paid for claiming black churches would burn if Republicans were elected.

GOP – Why are these blatantly partisan groups still tax-exempt?

I don’t think Huckabee owes a HAMAS supporting group any reply, since everyone knows HAMAS is an Islamic terrorist organization.

In 2007 the organization (C.A.I.R) was named by U.S. Federal prosecutors, along with 245 others, as an unindicted co-conspirator in a Hamas funding case involving the Holy Land Foundation,[2] which caused the FBI to cease working with CAIR outside of criminal investigations due to its designation,

gordonbloyershow said:
Why do you lie all the time? Remember I use my REAL name so people can easily check that you are a liar. You just make yourself look stupid, sorry you are stupid.

Why are you sorry, don’t be! What lie did I tell? I simply told you to apologize to America for avoiding the call to duty.

It’s a call on you to do the right thing, not a statement of fact or false statement.

skyfet said:
BHO was a child during the draft, dummy. Do I have to educate you about that also, simple math.

Why don’t you quit hiding behind that phony name so the folks here can find out what country that you served in the military? Was it N. Korea, N. Vietnam, Libya, France or Russia?

I agree with Huckabee. People worship in different places.

A Church is a church and a Mosque is a mosque.

There are differences.

The forcefiull removal of a women’s clitoris, the beheadings of those that have diffrent faith, the continuation of a nearly 1000 year jehad that has killed thousands mabe millions, a religion founded by a guy that married a 6 year old child (making him a pedophile), the encouraged rapings of wife’s, the encouraged disfigurment of wife’s and little girl’s, the encouraged dehumanizing of women in general, the encouraging of those that don’t know better to blow them self’s up, ISLAM is a BARBARIC CULT.

gordonbloyershow said:
Why don’t you quit hiding behind that phony name so the folks here can find out what country that you served in the military? Was it N. Korea, N. Vietnam, Libya, France or Russia?

If I did serve for any of those ‘axis of evil’ at least I was fighting, you can’t claim that.

can ya?

skyfet said:
Why are you sorry, don’t be! What lie did I tell? I simply told you to apologize to America for avoiding the call to duty. It’s a call on you to do the right thing, not a statement of fact or false statement.

Of course you lied and everyone knows it. I enlisted in the U.S. Army, we all want to know your name so we can check what countries army you enlisted in? Was it China, Cambodia, Cuba or Iraq?

writer said:
King, when you’re posting as Bovine, could you at least explain what a gNOPig is?

Well, you and the gNOpigs have about the same low level of intelligence and feel they are under attack from their own shadows (R).

Non-believers think the two are equal.

skyfet said:
If I did serve for any of those ‘axis of evil’ at least I was fighting, you can’t claim that. can ya?

So if I wasn’t fighting I avoided my countries call? LOL you better not tell that to the nine out of ten people in the military that backed up the troops at the front. You just keep putting your foot in your mouth.

gordonbloyershow said:
Of course you lied and everyone knows it. I enlisted in the U.S. Army, we all want to know your name so we can check what countries army you enlisted in? Was it China, Cambodia, Cuba or Iraq?

Same story about you enlisting, but, but, but, but..

I’m sick of hearing that crap Gordon, enough is enough.

Apologize now, or shut it forever more.

Capiche!

gordonbloyershow said:
So if I wasn’t fighting I avoided my countries call? LOL you better not tell that to the nine out of ten people in the military that backed up the troops at the front. You just keep putting your foot in your mouth.

So what did you tell them to avoid the deployment to the front line?

Caphice…you either believe in shared private property or you don’t.

I don’t see the the Imams sharing.

notsofast said:
LMAO man are YOU stupid. I nver said BHO dodged the draft, I said Biden did. LOL You ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO STUPID!

“man are you STUPID. I nver…”. Who is STUPID?

When both religions do not believe in either “breaking” or “bending”.

Who is correct?

The Real Royal King said:
By the time our President was eligible to serve, we had an all-volunteer force.
There is, however, a general principle which holds here.

Yes there is and you don’t know what it is do you?

First, a draft dodger has to have been drafted to avoid the draft.
Second, people that enlist in the Guard are not draft dodgers and did not avoid service.
Third, if you serve and did not go to Vietnam you did not dodge the war.
Fourth, if you are rejected because of a physical problem, you did not dodge the dratt or avoid service.
Fifth, you are NOT a draft dodger if you had legitimate deferment. In WWII people that worked in coal mines, steel mills and other war industries were defered.

You ARE a draft dodger if you were drafted and went to Canada.
You are a draft dodger if you used a phony doctor to get an excuse to get out of being drafted.
You are a draft dodger if you used influence to get a phony deferment. (Clinton)

The loony left that wanted to stop the war did all the draft dodging and today they are the ones calling others draft dodgers. Skyfet and YOU have no leg to stand on calling others draft dodgers when you are such cowards that you can’t even use your real name.

gordonbloyershow said:

You ARE a draft dodger if you were drafted and went to Canada.
You are a draft dodger if you used a phony doctor to get an excuse to get out of being drafted.
You are a draft dodger if you used influence to get a phony deferment. (Clinton)

.

I have a question Gordon! which one of the methods mentioned above did you use?

Hey Gordo,

I didn’t fight because I was a Canuck. and saw multiple kids flee the war and then became a citizen of the US.

Sometimes, it is ok to argue a point without challenging someone’s history.

lazzzlo said:
Sometimes, it is ok to argue a point without challenging someone’s history.

Also, I was 12 to 16 when I lived in Canada during Vietnam.

lazzzlo said:
Also, I was 12 to 16 when I lived in Canada during Vietnam.

Actually, it was more like 8-12

This criminally insane behavior, Shariah law, the barbaric, seventh-century legal system Islamists are hell-bent on imposing on the entire world.

A hardline Muslim cleric who sparked anger across the U.S. with his anti-American comments in a television interview this month is to hold a protest outside the White House. British extremist Anjem Choudary – who once said ‘the flag of Islam will fly over the White House’ – has announced he will lead a demonstration calling on Muslims to establish the Sharia law across America.
The rally, planned for March 3.

NORBIT Jr. said:
You think C.A.I.R. might be exploiting religion to impose their left-wing Anti-American agenda?- Like the NAACP does with race?- Like LaRaza does with ethnicity?

GlennBovineKoldys said:
Here we go again. More of the same ignorant tripe claiming anyone not-white and non-xtian must be Anti-American. No wonder the Fox gNOpig Propaganda Network is the pen of the birfhers.

When is C.A.I.R every middle eastern person
When is NAACP every person of the black races
When is LaRaza representative of all Latin Americans.
These organizations are not representative of the races so how does your statement make any sense. C.A.I.R. and its members are very left wing and LaRaza is anti-american, they are for a takeover. I am not sure I would say NAACP is anti-American however. But at any rate the statement did not accuse any races of being anti-American only organizations. .

jo hoochie said:
Shariah law,

That doesn’t surprise me. But when I was a kid during the Vietnam protests; I was more concerned about making my bicycle “groove with hockey trading cards”.

Maybe I’m just a dumb f*ck, but I’m pretty sure most people can figure out facts.

It’s the sharia, stupid!

gordonbloyershow said:
can’t even use your real name.

Your a nut job why in the world would anyone give you their real name.How many guns do you own nut job?

ndanielson said:
It’s the sharia, stupid!

Actually, it is local government.

Huckabee does not strike me as an ignorant man.I’m sure he knew the back lash that would come once he made this comment.

BlueBunny said:
How many guns do you own nut job?

I have a bunch of guns, all legal.

I hate to disappoint, but I’m not a nut job.

gordonbloyershow said:
Why don’t you quit hiding behind that phony name so the folks here can find out what country that you served in the military? Was it N. Korea, N. Vietnam, Libya, France or Russia?

OK. Bloyer has run out of index cards to copy and has resorted to his demand for real names. It must be near his nap time. For anyone new here, Bloyer resorts to his obsession over screen names when he realizes he cannot present any logical debate.

lazzzlo said:
I was more concerned about making my bicycle “groove with hockey trading cards”.

LOL Good times!

http://www.educationnews.org/breaking_news/news/108243.html

American Bar Association (ABA) has decided to undertake the fight for Sharia law. Coming to a local government near you.

I was also just recently thinking about “legal stuff” that I don’t own.

You should check out what a “Whippet” is.

The police taught me about what that shotgun could do.

BlueBunny said:
LOL Good times!

I wasn’t sure if I could explain that correctly.

Wow, this sounds just like how liberals would run a country: “In reality, Islamic law is the most radical and intolerant system of governance on the face of the earth. It denies the freedom of speech (shut down Limbaugh, Fox News), the freedom of conscience(forcing Christian doctors to abort babies), and legal equality for women (around the world) and non-Muslims (ie., Christians, Jews, etc, are infidels).”

Impolitic Huckabee was… inaccurate NOT.

WHarropson said:
Impolitic Huckabee was… inaccurate NOT.

Exactly!

To bluebunny, I used Stan Mikita, Bobby Orr and Phil/Tony Esposito playing cards.

I’m also sure I used Maurice Richard as well.

BlueBunny said:
Huckabee does not strike me as an ignorant man.I’m sure he knew the back lash that would come once he made this comment.

I believe he even mentioned it.

jo hoochie said:
The rally, planned for March 3.

and of course this will be allowed and even encouraged by our muslim loving administration and all other left wing nuts. maybe whoopi and joy can lead the demonstration….

ndanielson said:
Wow, this sounds just like how liberals would run a country: “In reality, Islamic law is the most radical and intolerant system of governance on the face of the earth. It denies the freedom of speech (shut down Limbaugh, Fox News), the freedom of conscience(forcing Christian doctors to abort babies), and legal equality for women (around the world) and non-Muslims (ie., Christians, Jews, etc, are infidels).”

They will like it until it hits where they live in their home with their family.
Is this what we want for America? No!!

After a 14-year-old Bangladeshi girl named Hena Begum was forcibly raped, kicking and screaming, by a 40-year-old married man on Sunday, Jan. 30, a Shariah court the next day sentenced her – the rape victim – to receive 100 lashes for having engaged in an illicit “affair.” Henna was given no chance to appeal, and the sentence was carried out immediately. After between 70 and 80 lashes, the little girl collapsed into unconsciousness and was taken to the hospital – where she bled to death.

Islamic apologists will tell you such an atrocity is an abuse of Shariah law, or the excess of some remote, rural tribal council. Hogwash. Rape victims are frequently flogged and imprisoned under Shariah, as when a Saudi court in early 2009 sentenced a 23-year-old female who had been gang-raped by five men to 100 lashes and a year in jail. Her crime? Accepting a lift from a man who drove her against her will to his house and took turns, with four of his friends, raping her. Same with a 2007 case where the Saudi Justice Ministry sentenced a girl gang-raped by seven men to six months in prison and 200 lashes.

ndanielson said:
http://www.educationnews.org/breaking_news/news/108243.html American Bar Association (ABA) has decided to undertake the fight for Sharia law. Coming to a local government near you.

this is truly frightening.

justanotherconservative said:
and of course this will be allowed and even encouraged by our muslim loving administration and all other left wing nuts. maybe whoopi and joy can lead the demonstration….

Won’t hear a peep from them. Maybe they want to wear burka’s but being submissive to a man then they might rebel.

jo hoochie said:
Is this what we want for America? No!!

i dont know…. maybe some americans want this. it certainly seems this way. nobody seems to be terribly concerned about the idea of shariah law being practiced here.

skyfet said:
He has a delusional Messiah complex as it was mentioned in an earlier article, so he thinks he can utter any rubbish he wishes against different Religions. First it was the Mormons, now it’s the Muslims, tomorrow the Jews or Catholics? lay your bets.</blockquoa

are you fucking insane? we arent supposed to speak out against the violent, bloodthirsty brand of islamic extremism? does it insult you? i am sooooo sorry.

justanotherconservative said:
i dont know…. maybe some americans want this. it certainly seems this way. nobody seems to be terribly concerned about the idea of shariah law being practiced here.

If not they should be.

justanotherconservative said:
i dont know…. maybe some americans want this. it certainly seems this way. nobody seems to be terribly concerned about the idea of shariah law being practiced here.

The Brits didn’t think it could happen. They are being overrun. Now all those paying taxes can no longer afford to have kids, but the Muslim immigrants are coming in and having 8-10 kids and living on welfare. They are swamping the system, getting more voting rights and taking over.

The biggest foothold they get is when they enact their blasphemy laws (think: hate speech, hate crimes, thought crimes) and then you cannot even call the prophet pedophile, a pedophile! You cannot say, then, that subjugating women is wrong, beating them is wrong, raping your wife is wrong, or stoning them for adultery is wrong. Don’t believe it? Look at the cartoonist from WA who went into hiding for wanting a draw Mohammed day! Just threatening to burn their book starts the talk of death threats in EVERY PART of the world! Yet, Piss Christ is art.

Another verse in the Quran states: “Behold! The angels said: ‘O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and in (the company of) those nearest to God’” (3:45).

The Quran shows Jesus speaking from the cradle and, with God’s permission, curing lepers and the blind. (5:110) God also states in the Quran: “We gave (Jesus) the Gospel and put compassion and mercy into the hearts of his followers” (57:27).

skyfet said:
I think they recognize him as the Messiah,

Total 100% rubbish like ALL the things you say.

I challenge you ndanielson to back up your hateful rhetoric with quotes from the Quran.

SpineCrusher said:
I challenge you ndanielson to back up your hateful rhetoric with quotes from the Quran.

Of course you do, sweetpea, because you are too stupid to listen to the news, find your own evidence, and see reality. Some people just don’t have that ability. Besides, I don’t think you’d have the capacity to believe it or understand it anyway. To do so would take some foundation of reality, history and critical thinking, as opposed to blind liberal ideology. Good luck with that, sweetpea.

skyfet said:
I have a question Gordon! which one of the methods mentioned above did you use?

I notice how you always avoid telling us your REAL name so we can check on YOU? Just what are you hiding? Were you a Cpl Klinger?

gordonbloyershow said:
Muslim groups should apologize for radical Islam.

Right, because people generally should make apologies for things they are not personally responsible for!

BlueBunny said:
Your a nut job why in the world would anyone give you their real name.How many guns do you own nut job?

Anyone that is not a coward, like you, would stand behind what they say. People here that don’t attack others don’t have to use their real name because they don’t have anything to defend. Most people hide because they are liars or because they are just here to attack others and they could not stand the ridicule they would get from their friends or family.

Anyone who thinks gomer huckleberry and his fundamental allies wouldn’t have women in burkas if they could get away with it are just shitting themselves. The current war on women by the repugs would just be scratching the surface if they had their way. Now all you fox rubes be sure and run out and vote for this baptist imam.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Right, because people generally should make apologies for things they are not personally responsible for!

Never.

Keeva said:
OK. Bloyer has run out of index cards to copy and has resorted to his demand for real names. It must be near his nap time. For anyone new here, Bloyer resorts to his obsession over screen names when he realizes he cannot present any logical debate.

LOL, I resort to calling you cowards out and you can’t stand it. That is why it bugs you so much. Everyone here knows you folks are cowards.

SpineCrusher said:
I challenge you ndanielson to back up your hateful rhetoric with quotes from the Quran.

Of course you do, sweetpea, because you are incapable of doing your own research, let alone come to any conclusions on your own, so you are really not worth the time to prove anything to. In fact, it would be about as worthwhile as trying to teach 0bama that America is a constitutional republic.

ndanielson said:
http://www.educationnews.org/breaking_news/news/108243.html

American Bar Association (ABA) has decided to undertake the fight for Sharia law. Coming to a local government near you.

You keep harping on about Shari’ah law and making it out to be some bogeyman. Do you know the differences between Shari’ah, fiqh, and hudud? It doesn’t seem so. And anyone who reads the actual text of any of anti-Shari’ah legislation proposals would realize that the intent is not to prevent injustice, or protect human rights, or prevent the introduction of “foreign law” into the US, or nay other laudable goal, stated or otherwise.

The real intent is to single out a specific group(Muslims) for discrimination, based on their religion. Plain and simple. It’s all in the assumed definitions of Shari’ah. You should read some of the proposed legislation before making any presumptuous judgements simply because Westerners have managed to twist the meaning of Shari’ah into a buzz word with negative connotation.

It’s not too late to escape from the Paranoid Fear Dome, where everything of non-Western origin is to be looked upon with culturalist derision, suspicion, or unwarranted fear of something foreign that intends to “destroy our way of life”

gordonbloyershow said:
LOL, I resort to calling you cowards out and you can’t stand it. That is why it bugs you so much. Everyone here knows you folks are cowards.

Sorry, but not all of us are radio superstars with your courage and convictions. Is everybody here a coward besides you? Or just us libtards? Also, how does one book a guest appearance on your show? Do you sic feral dogs on libtards as the credits roll? If so, I will be sure to bring my protective gear.

You may scorn liberals like me with the fire of a thousand suns, but I think you are awesome. Really.

lazzzlo said:
Never.

Dude i was being sarcastic. The person i was responding to seems to want to attach collectivee guilt on all Muslims for so-called radical Muslim groups. I habitually apologize for things that aren’t my fault, don’t you? :)

gordonbloyershow said:
Most people hide because they are liars or because they are just here to attack others and they could not stand the ridicule they would get from their friends or family.

You mean like most of your conservative friends here who lie and attack.Hmmm sounds like FOX Entertainment channel has gotten in your pea brain.Sweetpea!

ndanielson said:
The Brits didn’t think it could happen. They are being overrun. Now all those paying taxes can no longer afford to have kids, but the Muslim immigrants are coming in and having 8-10 kids and living on welfare. They are swamping the system, getting more voting rights and taking over.

Spoken like a true xenophobe. Keep ‘em coming, your quips and uneducated commentary brighten my day with their comedic value, while simultaneously saddening me when i I think that people who think like this still exist in the 21st century; in a so-called liberal, democratic and free Western country no less

ndanielson said:
Of course you do, sweetpea, because you are incapable of doing your own research, let alone come to any conclusions on your own, so you are really not worth the time to prove anything to. In fact, it would be about as worthwhile as trying to teach 0bama that America is a constitutional republic.

That’s a nice deflection! I too await the Quranic support for your arguments

Cool! I just knew Fox would get some mileage out of the opinion they paid Huckabee to have. I’m pretty sure he got the outrageous comment bonus too. What a guy! What a network!

ndanielson said:
Of course you do, sweetpea, because you are incapable of doing your own research, let alone come to any conclusions on your own, so you are really not worth the time to prove anything to. In fact, it would be about as worthwhile as trying to teach 0bama that America is a constitutional republic.

P-p-p-p-pussy

jo hoochie said:
After a 14-year-old Bangladeshi girl named Hena Begum was forcibly raped, kicking and screaming, by a 40-year-old married man on Sunday, Jan. 30, a Shariah court the next day sentenced her – the rape victim – to receive 100 lashes for having engaged in an illicit “affair.” Henna was given no chance to appeal, and the sentence was carried out immediately. After between 70 and 80 lashes, the little girl collapsed into unconsciousness and was taken to the hospital – where she bled to death.

Islamic apologists will tell you such an atrocity is an abuse of Shariah law, or the excess of some remote, rural tribal council. Hogwash. Rape victims are frequently flogged and imprisoned under Shariah, as when a Saudi court in early 2009 sentenced a 23-year-old female who had been gang-raped by five men to 100 lashes and a year in jail. Her crime? Accepting a lift from a man who drove her against her will to his house and took turns, with four of his friends, raping her. Same with a 2007 case where the Saudi Justice Ministry sentenced a girl gang-raped by seven men to six months in prison and 200 lashes.

No what is real hogwash is your own conclusion. If you think that this passes for a reasoned understanding of the issues involved then you are mistaken. First you will need to show verses from the Qur’an that explicitly state that women who are raped are guilty of adultery and fornication, therefore subject to hadd punishments. Second you will need to discuss the socoicultural conditions that give rise to this type of behavior. You will have to discuss the concept of “honor” and how it is understood in these countries and how Islam is twisted. to legitimize such behavior, simply because all actions are seen as needing a legitimate Islamic foundation. Can’t find one? Well then just invent an Islamic connection for unIslamic behavior.

Furthermore you will have to have to sift through all the relevant ahadith on the subject to see that:

1.a woman’s testimony in accusations of rape holds more weight than a man’s.
2. Proving that an alleged rape was in fact a cover up for an illicit affair is extremely difficult.
3. It is impermissible to give a sentence handed out for zina(adultery or fornication) to a proven rape victim.

Finally, you will have to discuss how autocratic, despotic Muslim leaders introduce draconian, anachronistic laws and punishments, attaching a seemingly Islamic veneer to them, to both bolster their regime’s legitimacy by appealing to the public’s sense of understood “Islamicness” , and to crack down on dissidence, while distracting from the corruptness of their regime’s policies.

Therefore, something else is going on in these countries. I am not trying to whitewash them, as the stories cause revulsion to arise in me, but a more nuanced understanding that would result from proper research is what is needed. I have grown weary of the anti-Islam crowd’s superficial scholarship and investigation of all things Islamic in, order to buttress pre-conceivedd notions of “Islamic inferiority”. so it is in fact exactly as described, an atrocity that is “an abuse of Shariah law, or the excess of some remote, rural tribal council”

notsofast said:
Total 100% rubbish like ALL the things you say.

As usual, more superficial understanding. Many Christians will inevitably say that Muslims don’t believe in Jesus or they don’t believe he is the Messiah. The logic goes, “if you don’t believe in him in the exact way that we do, then you don’t believe in him at all.” Now that is what is rubbish!

Kind of like a republican saying to a democrat” we don’t believe the same things about democracy, therefore you don’t believe in democracy at all”.

As for the Qur’an which is the actual source of what Muslim believe about Jesus being the Messiah:

Quran : Chapter: 3 (Al-`Imran), Verse:46

[3:46] When the angels said, ‘O Mary, God gives thee glad tidings of a son through a Word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;

Quran : Chapter: 4 (Al-Nisa’), Verse:158

[4:158] And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.

Quran : Chapter: 4 (Al-Nisa’), Verse:172

[4:172] O People of the Book! exceed not the limits in your religion, and say not of God anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and a fulfilment of His word which He has sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, God is the only One God. Holy is He, far above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a guardian.

Chapter: 4 (Al-Nisa’), Verse:173

[4:173] Surely, the Messiah disdains not to be a servant of God, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoso disdains to worship Him and is proud, He will gather them all to Himself.

.
Quran : Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma’idah), Verse:18

[5:18] They indeed have disbelieved who say, ‘Surely Allah – He is the Messiah, son of Mary.’ Say, ‘Who then has any power against God, if He desired to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother and all those that are in the earth?’ And to Allah belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them. He creates what He pleases and God has power over all things.

Quran : Chapter: 9 (Al-Taubah), Verse:31

[9:31] They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides Allah. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but He. Holy is He far above what they associate with Him!

Qur’an: Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma’idah), Verse:73

[5:73] Indeed, they are disbelievers who say, ‘God, He is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ whereas the Messiah himself said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God Who is my Lord and your Lord.’ Surely, whoso associates partners with God, him has Allah forbidden Heaven, and the Fire will be his resort. And the wrongdoers shall have no helpers.

Quran : Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma’idah), Verse:76

[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

Quran : Chapter: 9 (Al-Taubah), Verse:30

[9:30] And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of God,’ and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is the son of God;’ that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. God’s curse be on them! How they are turned away.

Pablo said:
Speaking of CAIR, here’s a delightful little clip of Allen West schooling their South Florida executive director on…Islam.

You are completely delusional if you think that Allen West schooled Nezar Hamze on Islam. Police-blotter discourse and information is no substitute for knowledge or scholarship. If you think listing criminal and evil acts and linking them inextricably to Islam while ignoring other factors, and without without presenting a causal link beyond “Muslims are doing it” represents a display of knowledge of Islam then i got a bridge to sell you.

You actually believe West? He couldn’t even get the story about the Battle of the Trenches correct! And all the people clapping and cheering, we’re supposed to believe that they have all read all the relevant Quranic surahs and ahadith, instead of just tuning in to Fox News for their info on Islam?

All that we are seeing here is a lone Muslim(brave or stupid?) wandering into a gathering of a bunch of Islamophobes who will cheer West on, without paying attention to what he is actually saying, just for the sake of providing moral support for an ally when it appears he is winning an argument against a Muslim.

It’s like American media portrayals of Blacks and Hispanics, Arabs and Muslims. If you swallow the police-blotter style tactics and rhetoric as truth then you would end up thinking all Blacks and Hispanics are either criminals or uniquely prone to criminality. Or all Muslims are terrorists. Or even all terrorists are Muslims. Or all Arabs are Muslims. Or all Muslims are Arabs. I could go on and on about media portrayals and the perpetuation of stereotypes.

For all the bashing I got by saying Huckabee should have kept his mouth shut, isn’t so interesting that Huckabee is going to have to apologize?

Interesting how that one worked out, right? Bad political move, right?

Here’s one of my many comments on the issue from this topic;
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/mike-huckabee-infuriated-by-christian-church-allowing-muslims-to-pray-there/comment-page-5/#comments

Huckabee is completely within his rights to say that the purpose of HIS church is to push forth the gospel of Jesus Christ but in saying this he is essentially defining the ROLE (as I explained earlier) of each OTHER denomination as being the same as his church. Like he’s plain old, vanilla Christian and therefore everyone else is as well. I was personally raised Catholic when I was younger and have attended services in many other churches, including having been in mosques and temples as well. The function of a church is to be decided by whomever established the church. The leader of this particular church that Huckabee is railing against is obviously perfectly alright with having Muslims worship god (note the lowercase ‘g’) in the public house of worship.

What I then went on to say was that, as a politician, it’s stupid (i.e. not illegal but severely misguided) of him to tell people, many of whom he would have to win the votes of to assume office, that their religion should essentially be like HIS religion. That’s not religious freedom, that’s saying “you’re either with me or against me”. I also said that I know he stated that he understood the autonomy of each church and that, as I repeated several times, he did NOT mean to incite any violence nor hatred.

Huckabee then goes on to say;
“Then you have a Muslim group that says that Jesus Christ and all the people who follow him are a bunch of infidels who should be, essentially, obliterated”

This is where I begin to lose all respect for him and what he said. This is a false statement. As many people have pointed out on this website already (including myself) Jesus (Isa) is a prophet according to the Qu’ran. For a “Muslim group” to say “Jesus should be, essentially, obliterated” would be blasphemy by THEIR religion. Mike Huckabee is NOT a Muslim scholar and clearly needs to learn a little more about their faith. He’s using his stature as a Baptist minister and his degree in Religion as a way to confuse the audience of the TV program who aren’t obligated to know these details when they’re watching their NEWS program. NEWS. When he opens his mouth he is RESPONSIBLE to give factual statements unless he states that it is his OPINION. He does not state that it’s his opinion and is therefore lying to the audience. To knowingly lie is called slander and is an exception to the first amendment. I didn’t mention this before in my statements because I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that it may possibly have slipped out or that he was confused and wasn’t knowingly slandering Islam.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
You keep harping on about Shari’ah law and making it out to be some bogeyman. Do you know the differences between Shari’ah, fiqh, and hudud? It doesn’t seem so. And anyone who reads the actual text of any of anti-Shari’ah legislation proposals would realize that the intent is not to prevent injustice, or protect human rights, or prevent the introduction of “foreign law” into the US, or nay other laudable goal, stated or otherwise.

The real intent is to single out a specific group(Muslims) for discrimination, based on their religion. Plain and simple. It’s all in the assumed definitions of Shari’ah. You should read some of the proposed legislation before making any presumptuous judgements simply because Westerners have managed to twist the meaning of Shari’ah into a buzz word with negative connotation.

It’s not too late to escape from the Paranoid Fear Dome, where everything of non-Western origin is to be looked upon with culturalist derision, suspicion, or unwarranted fear of something foreign that intends to “destroy our way of life”

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Spoken like a true xenophobe. Keep ‘em coming, your quips and uneducated commentary brighten my day with their comedic value, while simultaneously saddening me when i I think that people who think like this still exist in the 21st century; in a so-called liberal, democratic and free Western country no less

Of course, cupcake, they are the religion of peace. Don’t worry your pretty little head about no sharia.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
You are completely delusional if you think that Allen West schooled Nezar Hamze on Islam. Police-blotter discourse and information is no substitute for knowledge or scholarship. If you think listing criminal and evil acts and linking them inextricably to Islam while ignoring other factors, and without without presenting a causal link beyond “Muslims are doing it” represents a display of knowledge of Islam then i got a bridge to sell you.

You actually believe West? He couldn’t even get the story about the Battle of the Trenches correct! And all the people clapping and cheering, we’re supposed to believe that they have all read all the relevant Quranic surahs and ahadith, instead of just tuning in to Fox News for their info on Islam?

All that we are seeing here is a lone Muslim(brave or stupid?) wandering into a gathering of a bunch of Islamophobes who will cheer West on, without paying attention to what he is actually saying, just for the sake of providing moral support for an ally when it appears he is winning an argument against a Muslim.

It’s like American media portrayals of Blacks and Hispanics, Arabs and Muslims. If you swallow the police-blotter style tactics and rhetoric as truth then you would end up thinking all Blacks and Hispanics are either criminals or uniquely prone to criminality. Or all Muslims are terrorists. Or even all terrorists are Muslims. Or all Arabs are Muslims. Or all Muslims are Arabs. I could go on and on about media portrayals and the perpetuation of stereotypes.

Looked like unfair schooling to me. The religion of peace needs no schooling. Pablo is practicing taqiyya without a permit. Isn’t that blasphemy for an infidel? When you pronounce mahammmakckede does it sound like you are hacking a hairball? Also, is it blasphemy to not capitalize mahchkammed?

muhammad abd al haqq said:
You are completely delusional if you think that Allen West schooled Nezar Hamze on Islam. Police-blotter discourse and information is no substitute for knowledge or scholarship. If you think listing criminal and evil acts and linking them inextricably to Islam while ignoring other factors, and without without presenting a causal link beyond “Muslims are doing it” represents a display of knowledge of Islam then i got a bridge to sell you.

You actually believe West? He couldn’t even get the story about the Battle of the Trenches correct! And all the people clapping and cheering, we’re supposed to believe that they have all read all the relevant Quranic surahs and ahadith, instead of just tuning in to Fox News for their info on Islam?

All that we are seeing here is a lone Muslim(brave or stupid?) wandering into a gathering of a bunch of Islamophobes who will cheer West on, without paying attention to what he is actually saying, just for the sake of providing moral support for an ally when it appears he is winning an argument against a Muslim.

It’s like American media portrayals of Blacks and Hispanics, Arabs and Muslims. If you swallow the police-blotter style tactics and rhetoric as truth then you would end up thinking all Blacks and Hispanics are either criminals or uniquely prone to criminality. Or all Muslims are terrorists. Or even all terrorists are Muslims. Or all Arabs are Muslims. Or all Muslims are Arabs. I could go on and on about media portrayals and the perpetuation of stereotypes.

Hey, are you a CAIR clown??? Alan West did school that punk, too. Soundly. And the crowd dug it!

Hey check out this freak, he says that the flag of islam will one day fly on the White House! Can you believe that??? What a freak! Muslims don’t really believe that crap do they??? Why would they want to rule a bunch of infidels!?

muhammad abd al haqq said:
You are completely delusional if you think that Allen West schooled Nezar Hamze on Islam. Police-blotter discourse and information is no substitute for knowledge or scholarship. If you think listing criminal and evil acts and linking them inextricably to Islam while ignoring other factors, and without without presenting a causal link beyond “Muslims are doing it” represents a display of knowledge of Islam then i got a bridge to sell you.

You actually believe West? He couldn’t even get the story about the Battle of the Trenches correct! And all the people clapping and cheering, we’re supposed to believe that they have all read all the relevant Quranic surahs and ahadith, instead of just tuning in to Fox News for their info on Islam?

All that we are seeing here is a lone Muslim(brave or stupid?) wandering into a gathering of a bunch of Islamophobes who will cheer West on, without paying attention to what he is actually saying, just for the sake of providing moral support for an ally when it appears he is winning an argument against a Muslim.

It’s like American media portrayals of Blacks and Hispanics, Arabs and Muslims. If you swallow the police-blotter style tactics and rhetoric as truth then you would end up thinking all Blacks and Hispanics are either criminals or uniquely prone to criminality. Or all Muslims are terrorists. Or even all terrorists are Muslims. Or all Arabs are Muslims. Or all Muslims are Arabs. I could go on and on about media portrayals and the perpetuation of stereotypes.

Hey, are you a CAIR clown??? Alan West did school that punk, too. Soundly. And the crowd dug it!

Hey check out this freak, he says that the flag of islam will one day fly on the White House! Can you believe that??? What a freak! Muslims don’t really believe that crap do they??? Why would they want to rule a bunch of infidels!?

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/the-flag-of-islam-will-one-day-fly-over-the-white-house-video_10042010

Hey look a cartoon of mohammed! :-{0>

Hey, take the Qur’an challenge! http://clancop.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/steven-crowders-challenge-mohammeds-lifestyle-versus-the-rest/

muhammad abd al haqq said:
No what is real hogwash is your own conclusion. If you think that this passes for a reasoned understanding of the issues involved then you are mistaken. First you will need to show verses from the Qur’an that explicitly state that women who are raped are guilty of adultery and fornication, therefore subject to hadd punishments. Second you will need to discuss the socoicultural conditions that give rise to this type of behavior. You will have to discuss the concept of “honor” and how it is understood in these countries and how Islam is twisted. to legitimize such behavior, simply because all actions are seen as needing a legitimate Islamic foundation. Can’t find one? Well then just invent an Islamic connection for unIslamic behavior. Furthermore you will have to have to sift through all the relevant ahadith on the subject to see that: 1.a woman’s testimony in accusations of rape holds more weight than a man’s.2. Proving that an alleged rape was in fact a cover up for an illicit affair is extremely difficult.3. It is impermissible to give a sentence handed out for zina(adultery or fornication) to a proven rape victim. Finally, you will have to discuss how autocratic, despotic Muslim leaders introduce draconian, anachronistic laws and punishments, attaching a seemingly Islamic veneer to them, to both bolster their regime’s legitimacy by appealing to the public’s sense of understood “Islamicness” , and to crack down on dissidence, while distracting from the corruptness of their regime’s policies. Therefore, something else is going on in these countries. I am not trying to whitewash them, as the stories cause revulsion to arise in me, but a more nuanced understanding that would result from proper research is what is needed. I have grown weary of the anti-Islam crowd’s superficial scholarship and investigation of all things Islamic in, order to buttress pre-conceivedd notions of “Islamic inferiority”. so it is in fact exactly as described, an atrocity that is “an abuse of Shariah law, or the excess of some remote, rural tribal council”

Ouch, Did I rub your Quran the wrong way?? Since you must be a Muslim and know more than me when it comes to this subject so be it. I don’t trust Muslims nor their Shariah law just from what I have seen and read and I don’t want a Shariah law in the U.S. period. I don’t want to see an Islamic flag flying over the White House. Why should I, this is America and I would like it to stay that way. I have been reading and trying to understand more about the Muslim faith and so far I haven’t seen anything good about it. I don’t know any Muslims so all I have is the Internet and TV so instead of quoting your Quran maybe you can explain why I should like the idea of having a Shariah law and Islamic flag flying in the U.S?

jo hoochie said:
. I don’t know any Muslims so all I have is the Internet and TV so instead of quoting your Quran maybe you can explain why I should like the idea of having a Shariah law and Islamic flag flying in the U.S?

Who in this thread said you should?

Maybe since you admit you don’t know any Muslims and don’t know much about Islam except a few things you’ve read on the web, you should just hold back on being so judgmental.

gordonbloyershow said:
I notice how you always avoid telling us your REAL name so we can check on YOU? Just what are you hiding? Were you a Cpl Klinger?

PLEASE GET OFF THE NAME THING. I don’t like a thing he says and I don’t care what his name is. I like the anonymity not giving my name affords me. I like knowing that what I say will not affect my relationships at work because I would like not to get in a fight at work over a comment about abortion or religion or my issues with Obamacare. Politics and religion don’t have a place there but if someone from my job reads my comments it could destroy a working relationship. Here I can have those conversations without fear. If I get in an argument over those politics no one at work will be offended. If you come to these sites you are accepting being offended by someone and don’t have to see them at work the next day and be the one upset either. My cube mate could be the one who just called me an idiot and it doesn’t have to affect my work. Please quit. And please get off going on and on with others over name calling.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
As usual, more superficial understanding. Many Christians will inevitably say that Muslims don’t believe in Jesus or they don’t believe he is the Messiah. The logic goes, “if you don’t believe in him in the exact way that we do, then you don’t believe in him at all.” Now that is what is rubbish!

Just wanted you to know your input and information is appreciated. We’re not all Islamaphobes.

ndanielson said:
Of course, cupcake, they are the religion of peace. Don’t worry your pretty little head about no sharia.

Yeah, we don’t want anyone coming in here and teaching us anything new , or sharing pertinent information. This is America dam it, and we stand up for our rights to stereotype others.

CosmosDan said:
Just wanted you to know your input and information is appreciated. We’re not all Islamaphobes.

Nope, the only thing liberals are afraid of is Fox News. It’s all taqiyya to them.

ndanielson said: It’s all taqiyya to them.

I’ll take a shot of Padrone

Taqiyya: Conditions to lie set by Muhammad
In his Sira, Muhammad authorized lying to improve the chances of successful assassinations, for example in the case of Shaaban Ibn Khalid al-Hazly and Bin Kaab.
Muhammad said: “Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie to an enemy, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people” [Ahmad, 6.459. H]

Wow, so Muhhackkmed, who can’t you lie to? What if you hate your boss??? He’s your enemy then, no? Your neighbor? Americans? Christians?

CosmosDan said:
Who in this thread said you should? Maybe since you admit you don’t know any Muslims and don’t know much about Islam except a few things you’ve read on the web, you should just hold back on being so judgmental.

The same way you are never judgemental about what other people write on here?

jo hoochie said:
Ouch, Did I rub your Quran the wrong way?? Since you must be a Muslim and know more than me when it comes to this subject so be it. I don’t trust Muslims nor their Shariah law just from what I have seen and read and I don’t want a Shariah law in the U.S. period. I don’t want to see an Islamic flag flying over the White House. Why should I, this is America and I would like it to stay that way. I have been reading and trying to understand more about the Muslim faith and so far I haven’t seen anything good about it. I don’t know any Muslims so all I have is the Internet and TV so instead of quoting your Quran maybe you can explain why I should like the idea of having a Shariah law and Islamic flag flying in the U.S?

C’mon man you can’t be this ignorant. I usually have more faith in my fellow human beings, but…i have a task for you: Google “six principles of shari’ah”, then come back and tell me how much you don’t wan’t shari’ah law in the US. I think you, like all Islamophobes are guilty of conflating shari’ah(divine law) with fiqh(islamic jurisprudence, a human endeavor), and hudud( roughly translated as capital punishments). I am sure if you actually surveyed actual Muslims you would find a majority are opposed to draconian, anachronistic punishments being equated to shari’ah. Many things thought of as “Shari’ah” by Westerners are thought of as unIslamic by Muslims. Go figure.

Every time a Muslim prays, that’s Shari’ah in action. When people say that don’t want Shari’ah in the US, they are merely regurgitation the rhetoric of their evil leaders, who know full well that no Shari’ah=No Islam=No Muslims=no religious freedom for Muslims. They are fooling you into supporting religous apartheid, and later, even more evil measures. Don’t be a sheeple. rejoin humanity, we will forgive you.

How am i to beleive you have been reading and trying to learn about the Islamic faith, when you say most of your knowledge comes from Tv and the internet? What sites do you go on? Which TV programs and stations do you rely on for Islamic info?

And how would i explain the Shari’ah to you without quoting from the Qur’an? Seems an unreasonable request to me!And the fact that you don’t know any Muslims is definitely a factor. The cure for Islamophobia is getting to know actual Muslims instead of the caricatures and stereotypes some media like to portray.

Btw, you could never rub my Qur’an the wrong way..it’s your Qur’an you are rubbing the wrong way, get it?

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Every time a Muslim prays, that’s Shari’ah in action. When people say that don’t want Shari’ah in the US, they are merely regurgitation the rhetoric of their evil leaders, who know full well that no Shari’ah=No Islam=No Muslims=no religious freedom for Muslims. They are fooling you into supporting religous apartheid, and later, even more evil measures. Don’t be a sheeple. rejoin humanity, we will forgive you.

.
Where do I start?

I know! I’ll quit being a “sheeple” by rejecting my “evil leaders” who are “fooling” me into “religious apartheid…and even more evil”. If i will only do that why then I will be accepted (wonder of wonders) back into “humanity” and even “forgiven”.

Have I got that part right?

If that is your attitude when trying to persuade from a position of weakness – as opposed to a position of power – you will forgive me if I am not quite sanguine about exactly what behavior I could expect from you if you were in a position of power.

muhammad abd al haqq said:so-called liberal, democratic and free Western country
…
Westerners have managed to twist the meaning
…
When people say that don’t want Shari’ah in the US, they are merely regurgitation the rhetoric of their evil leaders
…
It’s like American media portrayals of Blacks and Hispanics, Arabs and Muslims.

You sound like a real big fan of America and western culture.

We should all listen to you and belive everything you say because you’re one of the good ones. Us Americans are the evil ones who portray everyone dishonestly, and twist the meanings of innocent people here in our so-called Liberal Democracy.

CosmosDan said:
Just wanted you to know your input and information is appreciated. We’re not all Islamaphobes.

Useful idiot. I’m sure you both feel the same way about America.

Grammie said:
.
Where do I start?

I know! I’ll quit being a “sheeple” by rejecting my “evil leaders” who are “fooling” me into “religious apartheid…and even more evil”. If i will only do that why then I will be accepted (wonder of wonders) back into “humanity” and even “forgiven”.

Have I got that part right?

If that is your attitude when trying to persuade from a position of weakness – as opposed to a position of power – you will forgive me if I am not quite sanguine about exactly what behavior I could expect from you if you were in a position of power.

Lol Grammie. These Muslims always reveal themselves don’t they. I’ve seen this kind of crap so many times. They are so earnest in their attempts to convince people not to believe what their ears and eyes are hearing ans seeing. But if you take a close look at what they’re saying, it’s always the same old bullshit that westerners are evil, blah, blah, blah.
But what can you expect from a religion that was founded by deceit and murder? There’s a reason why lying (taqqiya) is a virtue in Islam…Satan is known as the Great Deceiver. No amount of lying and bullshit is ever going to change my mind.
There are many of Muslims in America who fled the shitholes in the mid-east and came here because they wanted to escape the insanity of their homes countries. They embrace western culture because they love their families and want to live in a safe, great society. These people will always be welcome here.
But the fanatics who immigrate here thinking they are going to make America change and they are going to change our laws can go to Hell where they belong.

OxyCon said: “There’s a reason why lying (taqqiya) is a virtue in Islam…Satan is known as the Great Deceiver.”

Yes, in Islam Satan is known as a whisperer – one who whispers lies and false promises into the ears of those who might listen. But to say that “taqiyya” is a virtue in Islam is simply not true. Yes, Islam “permits” white lies to bring together two hostile factions, but in Islam permission does not imply desirability (there is in Islam the obligatory, the necessary, the praiseworthy, the permissible, the disliked, the prohibitively disliked, and the forbidden). Extremists of both camps exaggerate such a notion of “white lies” without regard to the many Qur’anic verses obliging Muslims to be honest and upright. Here is, in fact, part of a general legal opinion (with Islamic references) by a Muslim scholar reminding Muslims of their obligation to adhere to binding contracts and avoiding any sort of treachery. Again, this is a ruling intended for a Muslim reader, not for general consumption by non-Muslims:

Citizenship and Visas: Binding Covenants

Muslims are commanded according to Sacred Law [shari'a] to honor and fulfill all covenants and contracts, as Allah Most High unequivocally states, “O believers, fulfill your covenants.” (5:1)

Citizenship and visitor visas are legal contracts ['uqud aman] between an individual and the state; the individual agrees to abide by all laws of the state in return for the right to live there in security and peace. Muslims in non-Muslim lands must fulfill these covenants by respecting and following the laws of those lands, the foremost of which are respecting the life, property and honor of their fellow citizens. Muslim governments must do the same with non-Muslims in their lands, that is, respect and secure their life, property and honor.
These rules are binding, unequivocal, and absolute. They are affirmed by major classical texts of all four schools of Islamic law, amounting to scholarly consensus [ijma'].

[For details of 'aqd aman and 'aqd al-dhimma, see in the Hanafi school: Marghinani, Hidaya; Kasani, Bada'i al-Sana'i; Sarakhsi, Mabsut. In the Maliki school: Sawi, Hashiyat al-Sawi ala l-Sharh al-Saghir. In the Shafi'i school: Ibn Hajar al-Haytami/Nawawi, Tuhfat al-Muhtaj fi Sharh al-Minhaj. In the Hanbali school: Buhuti, Kashshaf al-Qina`; Ibn Qudama, Al-Mughni]

It states in the Kuwaiti Fiqh Encyclopedia [which was authored in the last century by a council of scholars and jurists, and which is based on classical legal works of all four schools of Sunni Islam]:
“It is unlawful for a Muslim that enters non-Muslim lands with a covenant of security to be treacherous, because they [the non-Muslim government] only granted the Muslim the covenant of security [f: such as a visa or citizenship] with the condition that the Muslim not be treacherous, even if that condition is not explicitly mentioned in the contract, since it is understood in context [f: which is the case with citizenship, as there is no explicit contract but rather an implied agreement of mutual security that is akin to a contract and which is just as binding]. For that same reason, if a non-Muslim comes into our lands with a security covenant and then proves treacherous [by attacking civilians], he would have broken his covenant.

Based on this principle, a Muslim that enters non-Muslim lands with a covenant of security may not be treacherous towards non-Muslims since that entails deception, which has no place in our religion. Our Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] said, ‘Muslims are bound by the conditions of their contracts.’ [Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan Daraqutni, Mustadrak Hakim]”

It also states later: “Such a contract [i.e., visa or citizenship] protects both life and property, and necessitates withholding from any sort of violence.”

The Qur’an on Covenants and Treachery

In many verses, Allah Most High both commands believers to fulfill covenants and harshly condemns those who break them, such as:

“And fulfill every covenant. Verily, covenants will be reckoned.” (17:34)

“Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers.” (2:27)

“Or is it that every time they make a covenant, a group among them casts it aside. Nay, rather most of them are not true believers.” (2:100)

“Those with whom you made a treaty, and then at every opportunity they break their treaty, and they do not fear [Allah with respect to covenants].” (8:56)

These and other primary texts were used by jurists classically to formulate the above rulings regarding the absolute binding nature of citizenship and visa contracts, irrespective of whether the contracts are among Muslims or between Muslims and non-Muslims.

Hadiths on Treachery

Our Beloved Messenger [peace and blessings be upon him] also sternly emphasized the enormity entailed in deception and treachery, whether by an individual towards society or by a government towards an individual.
The Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] listed among the signs of a hypocrite, “When he enters into a contract, he breaks it treacherously.” [Sahih Bukhari]

He [peace and blessings be upon him] also stated, “When Allah gathers the first and last of humanity on the Day of Resurrection, every treacherous person will be given a huge raised banner and it will be announced, ‘This is the treachery of so-and-so.’” [Sahih Muslim]
This particular hadith is cited frequently by jurists when discussing the enormity of breaking covenants of mutual security, whether with Muslims or non-Muslims. One narration of the hadith actually ends with, “And there is no treachery greater than that of the national government.”

Commentators explain that the significance of the large banner is to humiliate such people in front of all of humanity. One narration has the addition, “It will be raised commensurate to his treachery,” and yet in another narration, “It will come out of his anus” – the absolute epitome of disgrace, shame and humiliation. The enormous crime of treachery – a sin based on secrecy – is fittingly met with a gross punishment for all eyes to see.

[Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalani, Fath al-Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari; Ibn Battal, Sharh al-Bukhari; Ibn Daqiq al-'Id, Ihkam al-Ahkam Sharh `Umdat al-Ahkam]

Corey Brand said:
Muslim governments must do the same with non-Muslims in their lands, that is, respect and secure their life, property and honor.

.
I read recently in my wanderings over the net to get a better idea of what Islam* encompasses that this tenet is frequently not followed by custom and application of “civil” law in majority/predominantly Muslim countries.

There were no laws on the books that called for hanging a black man for looking the wrong way at a white woman in the deep South but that is poor comfort to all the black men and their families who were lynched with impunity for many years.

That is one concern of many that I have.

.
* I realize that Islam is an almost infinite area with many parts but I am interested mainly in what is common among the different sects/schools or most of them in custom, law and the application of law.

Corey Brand said:
Yes, in Islam Satan is known as a whisperer – one who whispers lies and false promises into the ears of those who might listen. But to say that “taqiyya” is a virtue in Islam is simply not true. Yes, Islam “permit

Blah, blah blah, and in America Mohamed is a pedophile prophet. Live with it.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
As usual, more superficial understanding. Many Christians will inevitably say that Muslims don’t believe in Jesus or they don’t believe he is the Messiah. The logic goes, “if you don’t believe in him in the exact way that we do, then you don’t believe in him at all.” Now that is what is rubbish!

Kind of like a republican saying to a democrat” we don’t believe the same things about democracy, therefore you don’t believe in democracy at all”.

As for the Qur’an which is the actual source of what Muslim believe about Jesus being the Messiah:

Quran : Chapter: 3 (Al-`Imran), Verse:46

[3:46] When the angels said, ‘O Mary, God gives thee glad tidings of a son through a Word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;

Quran : Chapter: 4 (Al-Nisa’), Verse:158

[4:158] And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.

Quran : Chapter: 4 (Al-Nisa’), Verse:172

[4:172] O People of the Book! exceed not the limits in your religion, and say not of God anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and a fulfilment of His word which He has sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, God is the only One God. Holy is He, far above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a guardian.

Chapter: 4 (Al-Nisa’), Verse:173

[4:173] Surely, the Messiah disdains not to be a servant of God, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoso disdains to worship Him and is proud, He will gather them all to Himself.

.
Quran : Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma’idah), Verse:18

[5:18] They indeed have disbelieved who say, ‘Surely Allah – He is the Messiah, son of Mary.’ Say, ‘Who then has any power against God, if He desired to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother and all those that are in the earth?’ And to Allah belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them. He creates what He pleases and God has power over all things.

Quran : Chapter: 9 (Al-Taubah), Verse:31

[9:31] They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides Allah. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but He. Holy is He far above what they associate with Him!

Qur’an: Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma’idah), Verse:73

[5:73] Indeed, they are disbelievers who say, ‘God, He is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ whereas the Messiah himself said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God Who is my Lord and your Lord.’ Surely, whoso associates partners with God, him has Allah forbidden Heaven, and the Fire will be his resort. And the wrongdoers shall have no helpers.

Quran : Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma’idah), Verse:76

[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

Quran : Chapter: 9 (Al-Taubah), Verse:30

[9:30] And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of God,’ and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is the son of God;’ that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. God’s curse be on them! How they are turned away.

Most liberals don’t believe in Jesus, dum-dum, so what’s your point after that???

Grammie said:
.
I read recently in my wanderings over the net to get a better idea of what Islam* encompasses that this tenet is frequently not followed by custom and application of “civil” law in majority/predominantly Muslim countries.

There were no laws on the books that called for hanging a black man for looking the wrong way at a white woman in the deep South but that is poor comfort to all the black men and their families who were lynched with impunity for many years.
=

omg this is absolutely hilarious! if you seriously believe that Muslim countries offer greater human rights than America does, you’re quite simply out of your mind. I can only imagine which websites you selected to learn from!

michiganruth said:
omg this is absolutely hilarious! if you seriously believe that Muslim countries offer greater human rights than America does, you’re quite simply out of your mind. I can only imagine which websites you selected to learn from!

.
Huh? Are you related to reasonable Lib by any chance?

Did you actually read the quote I commenting on? It was this:

Grammie said:
Corey Brand said:
Muslim governments must do the same with non-Muslims in their lands, that is, respect and secure their life, property and honor.

Now put those two things together and we can talk.

You might also want to check out my comment at

Grammie said:
Grammie says:
February 22, 2011 at 8:14 pm

Qur’an verses about Taqqiyah
A Muslim does not have to maintain his oath (faith) as long as what’s in his heart is true.

Wow, he can always rely on the faith of his heart. He need only look up to himself. And ask himself for forgiveness. Wow.

ndanielson said:
Qur’an verses about Taqqiyah
A Muslim does not have to maintain his oath (faith) as long as what’s in his heart is true.

Wow, he can always rely on the faith of his heart. He need only look up to himself. And ask himself for forgiveness. Wow.

A religion made for liberals if there ever was one. Maybe we are screwed.

Corey Brand said:
Yes, Islam “permits” white lies to bring together two hostile factions

And it allows for lying to your wife, but more importantly it allows for lying to your enemies, otherwise know as “infidels”, and Muhammad was a champ at it. As a matter of fact, that’s how Islam was spread, through deceit and murder, as Muhammad would sign a truce with his adversaries, then he’d secretly break the truce until he gained the advantage and then he’d slaughter everyone.
Sounds like God’s kinda guy doesn’t it?

@OxyCon

Did you actually read what I posted? Telling your wife her (less than stellar) cooking is the best you’ve ever tasted is one thing; treachery is another. Please re-read my post, especially the legal opinion.

Islam was was spread through truth and defense against those who made war against the truth. Muhammad signed treaties and upheld those treaties unless the other party broke them first. Muhammad gained the advantage because truth and uprightness should prevail over falsehood and treachery. Muhammad forgave his enemies. Thirteen assassination attempts against his life, and he forgave them all.

Peace.

ndanielson said:
http://www.educationnews.org/breaking_news/news/108243.html

American Bar Association (ABA) has decided to undertake the fight for Sharia law. Coming to a local government near you.

This is incorrect. “The American Bar Association has taken no action in support of, or in opposition to, judges considering Islamic law or Sharia. … The actions of a few interested members within one section are not and cannot be interpreted to be those of the entire American Bar Association. Claims to the contrary are erroneous.”
http://www.abanow.org/2011/02/correction-to-information-on-section-of-international-law-task-force/

Judge Mental said:
This is incorrect. “The American Bar Association has taken no action in support of, or in opposition to, judges considering Islamic law or Sharia. … The actions of a few interested members within one section are not and cannot be interpreted to be those of the entire American Bar Association. Claims to the contrary are erroneous.”
http://www.abanow.org/2011/02/correction-to-information-on-section-of-international-law-task-force/

People OF the ABA are currently taking up fights FOR sharia. Better?

Nothing gets me gladder when I read comments ripping a religion apart, but throwing personal insults out there isn’t the way to get your point through.

ndanielson said:
Most liberals don’t believe in Jesus, dum-dum, so what’s your point after that???

You are embarrassing yourself. The point is pretty obvious , but again, we wouldn’t want you to be in danger of learning something. It has nothing to do with being liberal. Let’s ad that your statement about liberals not believing in Jesus is bullshit to begin with.

OxyCon said:
Useful idiot. I’m sure you both feel the same way about America.

You mean we both love America and it’s virtues but are not blind to it’s flaws? That’s true for me.
You mean we both prefer to see people being educated with accurate information rather than buying into xenophobic bullshit. Also true for me.
You mean we both would prefer not to see more violence fostered by that ignorance and xenophobia and would like to see America try a little harder to live up to it’s noble principles? You got me again.

CosmosDan said:
You are embarrassing yourself. The point is pretty obvious , but again, we wouldn’t want you to be in danger of learning something. It has nothing to do with being liberal. Let’s ad that your statement about liberals not believing in Jesus is bullshit to begin with.

Most don’t believe in Jesus, God, church, the bible, the pledge of allegiance, saying Merry Christmas, the flag, America, the Constitution, the will of the people, democracy when it goes against them, crosses on public display, crosses worn by teachers in classrooms, the nativity scene in public places, the ten commandments displayed in court houses, the words to our national anthem, reading bills before they pass them, the rights of doctors to refuse abortion on demand, our Founding Fathers, the federalist papers…

jo hoochie said:
The same way you are never judgemental about what other people write on here?

I try hard not to judge what people write when I’m not familiar with the subject they are writing about. Getting properly informed is my recommendation.

CosmosDan said:
You mean we both love America and it’s virtues but are not blind to it’s flaws? That’s true for me.
You mean we both prefer to see people being educated with accurate information rather than buying into xenophobic bullshit. Also true for me.
You mean we both would prefer not to see more violence fostered by that ignorance and xenophobia and would like to see America try a little harder to live up to it’s noble principles? You got me again.

You are a class act as a clown. How many crimes against Jews occur in America as compared to Muslims? Who is xenophobic, clown???

CosmosDan said:
I try hard not to judge what people write when I’m not familiar with the subject they are writing about. Getting properly informed is my recommendation.

So how do you remain so woefully ill informed?

ndanielson said:
Most don’t believe in Jesus, God, church, the bible, the pledge of allegiance, saying Merry Christmas, the flag, America, the Constitution, the will of the people, democracy when it goes against them, crosses on public display, crosses worn by teachers in classrooms, the nativity scene in public places, the ten commandments displayed in court houses, the words to our national anthem, reading bills before they pass them, the rights of doctors to refuse abortion on demand, our Founding Fathers, the federalist papers…

You’re giving lip service to something you can’t back up. It’s stereotypical nonsense not based in facts.

ndanielson said:
So how do you remain so woefully ill informed?

Back up your BS, before you call other ill informed. I’ll check back.

ndanielson said:
Taqiyya: Conditions to lie set by Muhammad
In his Sira, Muhammad authorized lying to improve the chances of successful assassinations, for example in the case of Shaaban Ibn Khalid al-Hazly and Bin Kaab.
Muhammad said: “Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie to an enemy, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people” [Ahmad, 6.459. H]

Wow, so Muhhackkmed, who can’t you lie to? What if you hate your boss??? He’s your enemy then, no? Your neighbor? Americans? Christians?

Are you being a complete douche on purpose because you know you cannot offer reasoned responses? Your firsy sentence should be “According to the Sira written by Ibn Ishaq”. You are trying to deceive readers into thinking that Muhammad is the author of that text, and that it holds some sort of paramount religious significance to all Muslims. Are you familiar with the term provenance? Or the Arabic Islamic term isnad? Can’t be or you would be posting that as “proof” that Muhammad(saws) authorized lying to facilitate assassinations. And then immediately posting a hadith from Ahmad the founder of the Hanbali school of jurisprudence without discussing the difference between sira and books of hadith, classically disingenuous.

And taqiyya is just another Islamic term whose meaning has been twisted by Islamophobes to turn it into a buzz word with negative connotations. Your entire post clearly shows you wouldn’t know taqiyya if you were the one engaging in it.

Your efforts at deflection are simply unbelievable. When will you properly engage actual issues? When will we replace the principle “he who has the best argument speaks the truth” with ” he who has the truth has the best argument”?You are so blinded by your bigotry.

Grammie said:
.
Where do I start?

I know! I’ll quit being a “sheeple” by rejecting my “evil leaders” who are “fooling” me into “religious apartheid…and even more evil”. If i will only do that why then I will be accepted (wonder of wonders) back into “humanity” and even “forgiven”.

Have I got that part right?

If that is your attitude when trying to persuade from a position of weakness – as opposed to a position of power – you will forgive me if I am not quite sanguine about exactly what behavior I could expect from you if you were in a position of power.

Uh…no…you got it all wrong. You have displayed that your a master of twisting words and intentions to create your own, bogus rhetorical narrative. That called demagoguery, by the way. How about addressing the issue of the real intent behind “banning Shari’ah law” rather than engaging in obfuscation? Position of weakness? Lol that’s classic Islamophobe speak. You believe that when Muslims are in a state of weakness they say one thing, but if in a position of power, will do the opposite, am i right? Based on your twisted understanding of taqiyya and ideas about a “stealth jihad”, am i right? LOL

When someone knows the truth yet conceals it to dupe his followers into supporting his nefarious agenda, that’s evil, am i right? The leaders of the Islamophobesphere are counting on the average non-Muslims either to have a lack of basic knowledge of Islam and Arabic, or to be too lazy to do their own research. They are banking on the “sheeple mentality” that accepts police-blotter reporting and argumentum ad populum to do their work for them. Evidence? Just read what some one who agrees with you wrote. Supposedly the proof is “what their ears and eyes are hearing and seeing”. Do you not understand that everything that is seen and heard is filtered through a prism in order to create an interpretation. You honestly expect me to believe that news reports of every day occurences of “bad Muslim behavior convinces” people that Islam is evil, rather than people who already fear and/or hate Islam use news reports as proof that is Islam is evil. It’s a chicken before the egg thing, no?

OxyCon said:
You sound like a real big fan of America and western culture.

We should all listen to you and belive everything you say because you’re one of the good ones. Us Americans are the evil ones who portray everyone dishonestly, and twist the meanings of innocent people here in our so-called Liberal Democracy.

Useful idiot. I’m sure you both feel the same way about America.

Nice of you to be presumptuous. Is being a fan of ‘western culture” a prerequisite for being a “good person”. Sound like culturalist bias to me. Any criticism of America or “western culture” means I hate it, right? America and western culture is not only better than all other countries and cultures but both are perfect and beyond criticism. Right?

Whoever said anything about all Americans being evil? And speaking of twisting..re-read your hyperbolic comments in response to me again and see who is actually guilty of twisting meanings and dishonest portrayal. All this to avoid engaging the issues?!

OxyCon said:
But what can you expect from a religion that was founded by deceit and murder? There’s a reason why lying (taqqiya) is a virtue in Islam…Satan is known as the Great Deceiver. No amount of lying and bullshit is ever going to change my mind.
There are many of Muslims in America who fled the shitholes in the mid-east and came here because they wanted to escape the insanity of their homes countries. They embrace western culture because they love their families and want to live in a safe, great society. These people will always be welcome here.
But the fanatics who immigrate here thinking they are going to make America change and they are going to change our laws can go to Hell where they belong.

Right. So we are supoposed to believe someone who does not have a degree in Islamic studies, doesn’t know Arabic, hasn’t read Qur’an in Arabic, isn’t a mujtahid, mufassir, muhaddith, or any other type of Islamic scholar over a devout practicing Muslim that what you say about taqiyya? When you Islamophobes cry taqiyya it is nothing more than an intellectual cop out to prevent from critically engaging the issues. Taqiyya isn’t a virtue in Islam. Stop lying yourself. Especially about ‘founded on deceit and murder”.

Here’s one for you. The narratives of the Extremists and the Mainstream Muslims are diametrically opposed to each other. If tayiyya does in fact mean lying to spread, protect, and preserve the faith, which group is telling the truth?. When Extremists say Islam is about taking over the world, force converting kuffar, establishing a global caliphate, killing people just for not being Muslims, or abusing and discriminating against women, are they lying or telling the truth? You can’t play both sides of the fence. If both groups are Muslims and lying is an integral part of the faith, how do you reconcile this state of affairs?

And supposedly, among those Muslims who embrace western culture, who are the good ones, and those who want to “change our laws”, one group will be in Hell, even though both groups are Muslims? Seems then the problem is not Islam. And what exactly is embracing Western Culture? Abandoning an Islamic identity? What makes that a good in and of itself and a prerequisite for being welcomed in America? I thought that in a pluralistic society the prerequisite was obeying the laws, not subsuming ethnic and religious identities. Correct me if i’m wrong about pluralism, and liberalism.

And you have a decidedly ahistorical understanding of the world if you think people “escaped” MidEastern Countries because of Islam rather than because of sociopolitical and sociocultural factors. Otherwise why leave these countries and continue to practice Islam here in the West, if the problem for them was Islam? There are no Islamic states in the world, just Muslim-majority countries so your argument is fallacious. Most Muslim immigrants in this country are not Arabs. And most Arab immigrants in the US are not Muslims either.

CosmosDan said:
You mean we both love America and it’s virtues but are not blind to it’s flaws? That’s true for me.
You mean we both prefer to see people being educated with accurate information rather than buying into xenophobic bullshit. Also true for me.
You mean we both would prefer not to see more violence fostered by that ignorance and xenophobia and would like to see America try a little harder to live up to it’s noble principles? You got me again.

Thank you for all your comments CosmosDan.

And yes love I America and it’s virtues but am not blind to it’s flaws.I prefer to see people being educated with accurate information on Islam rather than buying into xenophobic bullshit. And I prefer not to see more violence fostered by that ignorance and xenophobia and would like to see America try a little harder to live up to it’s noble principles. How presumptuous of people to think otherwise because they can’t stomach valid criticism.

CosmosDan said:
You’re giving lip service to something you can’t back up. It’s stereotypical nonsense not based in facts.

Back up your BS, before you call other ill informed. I’ll check back.

Observation, sweetpea. Judging the evidence.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Are you being a complete douche on purpose because you know you cannot offer reasoned responses? Your firsy sentence should be “According to the Sira written by Ibn Ishaq”. You are trying to deceive readers into thinking that Muhammad is the author of that text, and that it holds some sort of paramount religious significance to all Muslims. Are you familiar with the term provenance? Or the Arabic Islamic term isnad? Can’t be or you would be posting that as “proof” that Muhammad(saws) authorized lying to facilitate assassinations. And then immediately posting a hadith from Ahmad the founder of the Hanbali school of jurisprudence without discussing the difference between sira and books of hadith, classically disingenuous.

And taqiyya is just another Islamic term whose meaning has been twisted by Islamophobes to turn it into a buzz word with negative connotations. Your entire post clearly shows you wouldn’t know taqiyya if you were the one engaging in it.

Your efforts at deflection are simply unbelievable. When will you properly engage actual issues? When will we replace the principle “he who has the best argument speaks the truth” with ” he who has the truth has the best argument”?You are so blinded by your bigotry.

And your prophet is a pedophile. Did I mention that?

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Uh…no…you got it all wrong. You have displayed that your a master of twisting words and intentions to create your own, bogus rhetorical narrative. That called demagoguery, by the way. How about addressing the issue of the real intent behind “banning Shari’ah law” rather than engaging in obfuscation? Position of weakness? Lol that’s classic Islamophobe speak. You believe that when Muslims are in a state of weakness they say one thing, but if in a position of power, will do the opposite, am i right? Based on your twisted understanding of taqiyya and ideas about a “stealth jihad”, am i right? LOL

When someone knows the truth yet conceals it to dupe his followers into supporting his nefarious agenda, that’s evil, am i right? The leaders of the Islamophobesphere are counting on the average non-Muslims either to have a lack of basic knowledge of Islam and Arabic, or to be too lazy to do their own research. They are banking on the “sheeple mentality” that accepts police-blotter reporting and argumentum ad populum to do their work for them. Evidence? Just read what some one who agrees with you wrote. Supposedly the proof is “what their ears and eyes are hearing and seeing”. Do you not understand that everything that is seen and heard is filtered through a prism in order to create an interpretation. You honestly expect me to believe that news reports of every day occurences of “bad Muslim behavior convinces” people that Islam is evil, rather than people who already fear and/or hate Islam use news reports as proof that is Islam is evil. It’s a chicken before the egg thing, no?

And your prophet is a pedophile.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Nice of you to be presumptuous. Is being a fan of ‘western culture” a prerequisite for being a “good person”. Sound like culturalist bias to me. Any criticism of America or “western culture” means I hate it, right? America and western culture is not only better than all other countries and cultures but both are perfect and beyond criticism. Right?

Whoever said anything about all Americans being evil? And speaking of twisting..re-read your hyperbolic comments in response to me again and see who is actually guilty of twisting meanings and dishonest portrayal. All this to avoid engaging the issues?!

As a fan of Western culture, we do not like pedophiles, as prophets or otherwise.

ndanielson said:
And your prophet is a pedophile. Did I mention that?

Thank you for proving my point with you childish responses. There must be a reason why you shout out insults and refuse to critically engage the issues, or provide a proper, reasoned response.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Thank you for all your comments CosmosDan.

And yes love I America and it’s virtues but am not blind to it’s flaws.I prefer to see people being educated with accurate information on Islam rather than buying into xenophobic bullshit. And I prefer not to see more violence fostered by that ignorance and xenophobia and would like to see America try a little harder to live up to it’s noble principles. How presumptuous of people to think otherwise because they can’t stomach valid criticism.

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَاصِمٍ عَنْ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ عَنْ ابْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ عَنْ ذَكْوَانَ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهَا قَالَتْ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ الْبِكْرُ تُسْتَأْذَنُ قُلْتُ إِنَّ الْبِكْرَ تَسْتَحْيِي قَالَ إِذْنُهَا صُمَاتُهَا وَقَالَ بَعْضُ النَّاسِ إِنْ هَوِيَ رَجُلٌ جَارِيَةً يَتِيمَةً أَوْ بِكْرًا فَأَبَتْ فَاحْتَالَ فَجَاءَ بِشَاهِدَيْ زُورٍ عَلَى أَنَّهُ تَزَوَّجَهَا فَأَدْرَكَتْ فَرَضِيَتْ الْيَتِيمَةُ فَقَبِلَ الْقَاضِي شَهَادَةَ الزُّورِ وَالزَّوْجُ يَعْلَمُ بِبُطْلَانِ ذَلِكَ حَلَّ لَهُ الْوَطْءُ

“Abu Asem told us from Ibn Goreh, from the son of Abi Molaika, from Zokwan, from Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) that: Allah’s apostle (PBUH) said that a virgin’s consent is taken. I said: “A virgin feels shy”. He said, ”Her silence is her consent.” And some people said that if a man falls in love with an orphan odalisque or a virgin and she refuses him. Then, he does a trick by bringing two false witnesses that he married her and the orphan realized it (the trick) and gave her consent and the judge acknowledged the false witnesses and the husband is aware of its falsehood, then is lawful for him to copulate with her.”

Lying is an integral part of the teachings of the pedophile prophet. Just like liberal thinking, the ends justify the means.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Thank you for proving my point with you childish responses. There must be a reason why you shout out insults and refuse to critically engage the issues, or provide a proper, reasoned response.

Just where do you start, after the fact that your prophet was into 6 year olds???

The fine art of lying is integral to Islam.

Surah al-Imran 3:118 mentions Taqqiya.
(unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, “We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them. Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, “The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection. Allah said

Muslims need to appologize for 9/11 and all of the other murderous acts they are guilty of and pay reparations to the victims and their families.  Then we an sit down and talk about their so called grievences.  That unfortunately, will never happen.  They instead attack everybody else claiming that somebody, somewhere at sometime did something to them that they didn’t like use that argument to go on silly little jihads and worst they ravage the countryside like vermin.  Please, stop your hate and murderous ways.  Repent and ask the world for forgiveness and if you mean it we will forgive you.

@Dem4Ever

Which Muslims must apologize and pay reparations?

ndanielson said:
Abu Asem told us from Ibn Goreh, from the son of Abi Molaika, from Zokwan, from Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) that: Allah’s apostle (PBUH) said that a virgin’s consent is taken. I said: “A virgin feels shy”. He said, ”Her silence is her consent.” And some people said that if a man falls in love with an orphan odalisque or a virgin and she refuses him. Then, he does a trick by bringing two false witnesses that he married her and the orphan realized it (the trick) and gave her consent and the judge acknowledged the false witnesses and the husband is aware of its falsehood, then is lawful for him to copulate with her.”

Why are you such a liar and deceiver? Surely if Islam is so bad there would be no need to lie about it to discredit it, no? I see you have been on wikiislam. Everything you post is word for word from their site. It’s interesting thought that you did not post the source of this hadith but posted Arabic text to add to your “legitimacy”. Why is that?

Did you read the ahadith before you copy/pasted? All of the elements of the hadith show:

1. it is truncated, ie incomplete
2. It was recorded for the purpose of establishing a legal precedent . Why is there a discussion of a judge while the Prophet(“as) was still alive?

Nowhere in the hadith do we have the Prophet condoning the behavior or encouraging it. In fact the very beginning of the hadith says:

Allah’s apostle (PBUH) said that a virgin’s consent is taken

The end says:

And some people said

Where is the Prophet’s response to what “some people said”

Nice try. Accusing someone of lying and then lying yourself. Next!

ndanielson said:
The fine art of lying is integral to Islam.

Surah al-Imran 3:118 mentions Taqqiya.
(unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, “We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them. Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, “The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection. Allah said

No the fine art of lying is an integral part of your debate tactic when it comes to Islam. BTW, that previous hadith you posted is so obviously a translation, and your posting of the Arabic first to hide that fact is duly noted. Why not post the transliteration also. Here’s a clue for you: the letters PBUH indicates that the translator substituted this for “sallahu alaihi wassalam.”

The word taqqiya, which doesn’t mean lying by the way, is not to be found in Qur’an 3:118. Neither is the word lie, or any of it’s derivatives or conjugations.

Here is Qur’an 3:118 with transliteration and three English translations, selected for their diversity.

Transliteration:
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la tattakhithoo bitanatan min doonikum la ya/loonakum khabalan waddoo ma AAanittum qad badati albaghdao min afwahihim wama tukhfee sudooruhum akbaru qad bayyanna lakumu al-ayati in kuntum taAAqiloona

Muhammad Asad:
O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take for your bosom-friends people who are not of your kind. They spare no effort to corrupt you; they would love to see you in distress. Vehement hatred has already come into the open from out of their mouths, but what their hearts conceal is yet worse. We have indeed made the signs [thereof] clear unto you, if you would but use your reason.

Abdel Haleem:
You who believe, do not take for your intimates such outsiders as spare no effort to ruin you and want to see you suffer: their hatred is evident from their mouths, but what their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made Our revelations clear for you; will you not use your reason?

Ahmed Ali:
You, you those who believed, do not take a confidant from other than you, they do not slacken/relax in (causing) degeneration/corruption (to) you, they loved/wished what you suffered (from) exertion/burden . The intense, hatred/animosity appeared from their mouths, and what their chests (innermosts) hide (is) greater/bigger. We have clarified to you the signs/verses/evidences if you were/are understanding .

Maybe you thought that “tattakhithoo” is is the same as “taqiyya” because of similar spelling and pronounciation? “Tattakhithoo” means “take for yourselves”.

Or maybe what happened is you confused that verse with 3:28?

[Qur'an 3:28]

Transliteration:
La yattakhithi almu/minoona alkafireena awliyaa min dooni almu/mineena waman yafAAal thalika falaysa mina Allahi fee shay-in illa an tattaqoo minhum tuqatan wayuhaththirukumu Allahu nafsahu wa-ila Allahi almaseeru

Muhammad Asad:
LET NOT the believers take those who deny the truth for their allies in preference to the believers – since he who does this cuts himself off from God in everything – unless it be to protect yourselves against them in this way. But God warns you to beware of Him: for with God is all journeys’ end. ⇨

Abdel Haleem:
The believers should not make the disbelievers their allies rather than other believers- anyone who does such a thing will isolate himself completely from God- except when you need to protect yourselves from them. God warns you to beware of Him: the Final Return is to God.

Ahmed Ali:
The believers do not take the disbelievers (as) guardians/friends from other than the believers, and who does that, so he is not from God in a thing, except that you fear from them fear/fright , and God cautions/warns you (of) Himself, and to God (is) the end/destination .

This is obviously the most likely reason for your “mistake”(i mean besides careless cherry-picking and copy/pasting), since what follows is a commentary on the verse from Ibn Kathir. Let it be noted that, just as in the other verse, the word taqiyya is not there in this verse. “Yattakhithi” means “take those” not “lie/deceive/dissimulate(the real meaning of taqiyya, btw)”. Also bear in mind that contrary to what wikiislam and other Islamophobes claim, there is no such official position in the Muslim world allowing for a mufassir to be declared as THE authority on tafsir. A commentator’s opinion is just that and must be looked at in it’s historical context. Stop trying to pass off a commentator’s opinion as official Islamic doctrine.

For a fuller discussion on directly refutes your nonsensical ideas about taqiyya see:

http://abdalhaqq.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/taqiyya-and-lying-in-islam/

Stop lying about Islam!

Dem4Ever said:
Muslims need to appologize for 9/11 and all of the other murderous acts they are guilty of and pay reparations to the victims and their families.  Then we an sit down and talk about their so called grievences.  That unfortunately, will never happen.  They instead attack everybody else claiming that somebody, somewhere at sometime did something to them that they didn’t like use that argument to go on silly little jihads and worst they ravage the countryside like vermin.  Please, stop your hate and murderous ways.  Repent and ask the world for forgiveness and if you mean it we will forgive you.

Let me see if i got this right, by way of 9/11 as an example. Since those who perpetuated that crime are dead, it is now incumbent on the Muslims who had nothing to do with it, or who do not believe the act was Islamically justified, to apologize? Am i right? Apologize for something i wasn’t responsible for? Shouldn’t only the individuals who committed those acts be compelled to apologize and pay reparations. You believe in collective guilt by association?

muhammad abd al haqq said:
For a fuller discussion on directly refutes your nonsensical ideas about taqiyya see:

*For a fuller discussion on the subject that directly refutes your nonsensical ideas about taqiyya

I have to respectfully disagree. Jesus went to places to aid those that needed aiding. Clearly the Muslim faith needs aiding. You can’t bring someone from Christ by staying away from them, you need to engage in a non-threatening way. So here now is an opportunity to do just that. Through these good deeds, who knows how many seeds are being planted that may some day resulting in these Muslims converting to Chrisitanity.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
And I prefer not to see more violence fostered by that ignorance and xenophobia and would like to see America try a little harder to live up to it’s noble principles.

Most generally, I believe you would find Americans living up to their noble principles when it becomes clear that all the rest of a group does not sympathize with a faction of that group. The people who attacked the US on 11 September, who bombed various places in the Middle East, who murdered US citizens aboard an airliner over Scotland, and who torpedoed the USS Cole were Muslims, but I have yet to see one Imam, Ayotollah, or Muslim leader denounce those attacks. For that matter, I have yet to see or hear one Muslim stand up and denounce–IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS–the attacks and the organizations to which the attackers represented. I don’t believe we’ve seen any Muslims pointing out where the attackers are hiding, either. After all, our so-called “friends” in Afghanistan are still hiding bin Laden. There is an old Arabic saying that goes like this: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Well, there’s an old American saying that goes like this: You’re either for us or you’re against us. Which are you?

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Apologize for something i wasn’t responsible for?

No one is asking that you apologize for something you did not do. All I expect is that you stand up like a man who is well-fitted with a pair of testicles and denounce the crimes committed by those of your faith.

You may call me “Haql as Fasioli” if you prefer.

Corey Brand said:
@Dem4Ever

Which Muslims must apologize and pay reparations?

Every last one!

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Let me see if i got this right, by way of 9/11 as an example. Since those who perpetuated that crime are dead, it is now incumbent on the Muslims who had nothing to do with it, or who do not believe the act was Islamically justified, to apologize? Am i right? Apologize for something i wasn’t responsible for? Shouldn’t only the individuals who committed those acts be compelled to apologize and pay reparations. You believe in collective guilt by association?

…and don’t forget to ask us for forgiveness, my friend.

Dem4Ever said:
…and don’t forget to ask us for forgiveness, my friend.

I hope you realize what a big joke you are! Should Muslims be waiting for every American to apologize for invading Iraq and killing and displacing hundreds of thousands of civilians. Should Americans collectively feel guilty for all the civilians it’s military killed in other Muslims majority countries? Should all Jews apologize for Zionist crimes? Every time someone is murdered or raped in the US should all Americans apologize to the victims or families of the victims? Get a clue, there is a reason why there are US laws to punish GUILTY offenders. You cannot make someone apologize, ask forgiveness for, or bear the brunt of a punishment, for an act that they did not commit. It’s irrational.

X-3 said:
Most generally, I believe you would find Americans living up to their noble principles when it becomes clear that all the rest of a group does not sympathize with a faction of that group. The people who attacked the US on 11 September, who bombed various places in the Middle East, who murdered US citizens aboard an airliner over Scotland, and who torpedoed the USS Cole were Muslims, but I have yet to see one Imam, Ayotollah, or Muslim leader denounce those attacks. For that matter, I have yet to see or hear one Muslim stand up and denounce–IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS–the attacks and the organizations to which the attackers represented. I don’t believe we’ve seen any Muslims pointing out where the attackers are hiding, either. After all, our so-called “friends” in Afghanistan are still hiding bin Laden. There is an old Arabic saying that goes like this: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Well, there’s an old American saying that goes like this: You’re either for us or you’re against us. Which are you?

No one is asking that you apologize for something you did not do. All I expect is that you stand up like a man who is well-fitted with a pair of testicles and denounce the crimes committed by those of your faith.

You may call me “Haql as Fasioli” if you prefer.

Ah i get it, the paranoia of if we do not denounce something in the way you believe it must be denounced then we Muslims must secretly sympathize with criminals who are our coreligionists. The paranoia of claiming to not be aware of Muslims denouncing terrorism and other despicable acts because the “unbiased” media is not reporting them. Anyone who makes these claims either doesn’t know Muslims personally, has never been to a masjid(mosque) and listened to the countless khutbahs(sermons) denouncing such acts, has never read a fatwa, or numerous fatwas, by prominent Imams denouncing the same acts and organizations, has never read any books by prominent Islamic scholars denouncing these acts, is unaware of the stringent measures in Muslim-majority countries that seek to severely punish acts of terrorism(even in Wahhabi Saudi Arabia of all places), has never been on the thousands of Islamic websites that denounce terrorism generally and specifically when certain incidents occur, has never heard of the countless organizations with the express purpose of denouncing and combating terrorists, or is willfully ignorant or simply just doesn’t believe it when Muslims do denounce such acts.

It’s that taqiyya catch 22 that’s preventing real dialogue and understanding. What you really want is reassurance. You want someone to do the work for you. And right now police-blotter reporting, biased media, argumentum ad populum, and other logical fallacies and assigning collective guilt are enough for you. You won’t do the real legwork necessary to find out about Muslims from Muslims, for yourself. I find that usually this call for condemnation of other Muslims isn’t really a call for Muslims to denounce terrorism and other despicable acts and distance ourselves from its perpetrators. Rather it is a call for Muslims to denounce certain aspects of Islam that certain Islamophobic Westerners find unpalatable. That is why people like you will never be satisfied with anything Muslims do or say. That comment about “IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS” is proof and case in point because you deliberately use subjective, ambiguous phraseology, indicating only according to your terms and not a mutual understanding

As far as “There is an old Arabic saying that goes like this: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Well, there’s an old American saying that goes like this: You’re either for us or you’re against us. Which are you?”
I should remind you that not all Muslims are Arabs, not all Arabs are Muslims. The first saying is not an Islamic one. And the last saying is just pure nonsense. Muslims live by the code ” We are for you when you are right. We will oppose you when you are in error. We only follow Alllah, not mankind as mankind is prone to err”.

That is what leads to righteousness and justice, not blindly adhering to a side with an us versus them dichotomous, sectarian, mentality. All humanity is one, as the Qur’an says. Stop with your hyperbolic insinuations please,

muhammad abd al haqq said:
Ah i get it, the paranoia of if we do not denounce something in the way you believe it must be denounced then we Muslims must secretly sympathize with criminals who are our coreligionists.

It’s not paranoia, it’s asking you to man up. If you can’t do that, I have no use for you.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
I should remind you that not all Muslims are Arabs, not all Arabs are Muslims. The first saying is not an Islamic one. And the last saying is just pure nonsense. Muslims live by the code ” We are for you when you are right. We will oppose you when you are in error. We only follow Alllah, not mankind as mankind is prone to err”.

I fully realize that not all Muslims are Arabs, etc. but Arabic is a common language used by Muslims. Most speak it or Farsi. As far as being “right” is concerned, you might apply that to your brothers who strap bombs on themselves and murder innocents so they can get their 72 virgins. Do you call that “right?” Do you oppose that or see it as being in error? If Allah is telling you to murder innocents, then you’d better have your hearing checked for you are most likely hearing the voice of Satan.

Again, you either denounce and prosecute the terrorists of your faith or you are a hypocrite.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
That is what leads to righteousness and justice, not blindly adhering to a side with an us versus them dichotomous, sectarian, mentality. All humanity is one, as the Qur’an says. Stop with your hyperbolic insinuations please,

You should be preaching this camel dung to your jihadists.

X-3 said:
All I expect is that you stand up like a man who is well-fitted with a pair of testicles and denounce the crimes committed by those of your faith.

I see that i am talking to a brick wall. First it was not one single Muslim denounces crimes committed by terrorists. Now it seems you are suggesting that i personally don’t denounce crimes committed by Muslims, correct me if i am wrong. Yet we have this:

Anyone who makes these claims either doesn’t know Muslims personally, has never been to a masjid(mosque) and listened to the countless khutbahs(sermons) denouncing such acts, has never read a fatwa, or numerous fatwas, by prominent Imams denouncing the same acts and organizations, has never read any books by prominent Islamic scholars denouncing these acts, is unaware of the stringent measures in Muslim-majority countries that seek to severely punish acts of terrorism(even in Wahhabi Saudi Arabia of all places), has never been on the thousands of Islamic websites that denounce terrorism generally and specifically when certain incidents occur, has never heard of the countless organizations with the express purpose of denouncing and combating terrorists.

And it was completely bypassed to suggest that i don’t personally denounce terrorism, since the above would destroy any of your claims that Muslims don’t denounce terrorism. Or maybe You have been to a masjid and listened to a sermon? Or maybe you personally know quite a few Muslims from all walks of life? Or you have read all the fatwas denouncing terrorism? Or maybe you have read some of the books by prominent Islamic scholars denouncing terrorism? Or maybe you are aware that all Muslim majority countries, even Wahhabi dominated Saudi Arabia, severely prosecute terrorists? Or you have been to the thousands of Islamic websites denouncing terrorism, and have heard of the countless Muslim organization formed with the expressed intent of combating terrorism? And still concluded that we don’t denounce terrorism. Or maybe your are just willfully ignorant or simply just do not believe it when Muslims do denounce such acts?

Then it seemed you ignored my use of language:

“criminals”, “despicable acts”.

And suggested that i “stand up like a man who is well-fitted with a pair of testicles and denounce the crimes committed by those of your faith.”

It should be clear to you that not only do the vast majority of Muslims hate terrorism, but i personally denounce such acts as “despicable” and “criminal”.

“I fully realize that not all Muslims are Arabs, etc. but Arabic is a common language used by Muslims. Most speak it or Farsi.”

C’mon ! You were trying to suggest that a saying that is culturally Arab is by extension Islamic, when that is not necessarily the case. Most Muslims who are not Arabs, but who speak Arabic, use it for religious purposes. They are not culturally Arab. Most Muslims Speak Indonesian, an African language, or even English before Arabic.

“As far as being “right” is concerned, you might apply that to your brothers who strap bombs on themselves and murder innocents so they can get their 72 virgins. Do you call that “right?” Do you oppose that or see it as being in error? If Allah is telling you to murder innocents, then you’d better have your hearing checked for you are most likely hearing the voice of Satan.”

With all due respect i think it is you who needs to have his hearing checked. Everything a Muslim does isn’t Islamic or motivated by Islam; especially not just because they say it is. Strapping bombs to yourself commit suicide and receive 72 virgins in heaven is not Islamic. There is no Islamic text suggesting such. Killing innocents is completely against Islamic texts and teachings. So yes i oppose it and condemn it like the vast majority of the world’s Muslims.

There is a book, written by a high level Al-Qaida member, who is an Islamic scholar. In his book he not only denounces terrorism, but elucidates how terrorists are doctrinally incorrect. He describes how such groups brainwash and indoctrinate ignorant fellow Muslims into committing acts of terror. If killing oneself was an act of martyrdom, that guaranteed entrance into heaven with 72 virgins as a reward, ever wonder why Osama bin Laden wasn’t one of the first to do it? Anyway, google the book, if you aren’t afraid to step out of your comfort zone or Fear Dome and learn something. i am done indulging you.

“Again, you either denounce and prosecute the terrorists of your faith or you are a hypocrite.”

At least we can agree on something.

muhammad abd al haqq said:
high level Al-Qaida member

*a former high level Al-Qaida member,

lest anyone twist my words and accuse me of supporting Al-Qaida!

muhammad abd al haqq said:
I see that i am talking to a brick wall.

You’re correct in assuming you are talking to a brick wall but in reading your remarks, I see that you are as nebulous as smoke. The fact that I am a brick wall means I am unforgiving of those who have murdered my countrymen. That their acts were, in their twisted little minds, a means to exact some twisted brand of justice for a crime that was never committed by America or the innocent Americans they murdered makes me wonder whether all Muslims secretly feel the same way.

Unless a Muslim as an individual is willing to denounce crimes committed by their fellow Muslims, and unless all those who have the capacity to do so work to bring the twisted Muslims to justice, they are no better than the Muslims who committed those acts of war, they are, in fact, only sympathizers to the terrorists cause.

OK, you say you denounce those crimes; good for you. And for your denouncement, I will acknowlege my appreciation and acceptance that you feel as I do, that the Muslims guilty of terrorism have perverted your faith. But, you are the exception to the rule.

As a Christain, I denounce without reservation the acts of hate perpetrated by other Christains, no matter against whom those acts of hatred have been perpetrated, and THIS is the difference I see between Christains and Muslims.

You never acknowleged whether you know my name. In Arabic, it is the anglicized meaning for Haql al Fasioli

X-3 said:
in reading your remarks, I see that you are as nebulous as smoke.

… unless all those who have the capacity to do so work to bring the twisted Muslims to justice, they are no better than the Muslims who committed those acts of war, they are, in fact, only sympathizers to the terrorists cause. OK, you say you denounce those crimes; good for you. And for your denouncement, I will acknowlege my appreciation and acceptance that you feel as I do, that the Muslims guilty of terrorism have perverted your faith. But, you are the exception to the rule.

As a Christain, I denounce without reservation the acts of hate perpetrated by other Christains, no matter against whom those acts of hatred have been perpetrated, and THIS is the difference I see between Christains and Muslims.

You never acknowleged whether you know my name. In Arabic, it is the anglicized meaning for Haql al Fasioli

I don’t know what you mean by “nebulous as smoke”. What is unclear to you? As for my denouncement being the exception to the rule, i beg to differ. Refer to my previous comments and do the research to see just how much the vast majority of Muslims hate and denounce terrorism. How many Muslims do you know personally?

You are right about one thing, though. Some Muslims are hesitant or silent when it comes to denouncing terrorism for many reasons. And many do in fact secretly( and not so secretly) feel that Americans deserved some of the things perpetrated against them by some Muslims. i despise this sort of thinking, as do many Muslims. Again, the vast majority of Muslims condemn “without reservation the acts of hate perpetrated by other (Muslims), no matter against whom those acts of hatred have been perpetrated”. There is no difference between Christians and Muslims in this regard. I am sorry that your personal experience has not lead you to this conclusion.

As far as “Haql al-Fasioli” is concerned, i am aware that “haql” means “field’ in Arabic, but, other than that, i confess i do not know what you are talking about. Maybe you will enlighten me?

Haql al fasioli, roughly translated is “bean farmer” which is the Anglo Saxon interpretation of my surname.

I have, from time to time, worked closely with perhaps a dozen men of Muslim faith. Most were Sunni, a few were Shiite, one was Sufi, and one was of what I was led to believe a fringe group. The spelling might be wrong but it sounded like Ally Hack. The Sunnis and Shiites don’t seem to like one another except when a Christian or Sufi was around, and they certainly didn’t like the member of the last group! I take it the Sufi are sort of like “esoterics” and the Ally Hacks are a really way out bunch.

I’m a fairly tolerant person, but the Shiite who was also what is referred to as a “twelver” really rankled me. I rather think the others didn’t like him all that well, but he allegedly had some connections and had been known to cause trouble for some of his fellow Muslims who were not fundamentalist enough for his liking.

As it turns out, the Sufi was easiest for me to get along with; the Ally Hack was just plain wierd.

One gentleman I met from The Sudan seemed to think the US “deserved” the terrorist attacks but when you get down to it, only a coward attacks innocents when their beef is with someone else. For instance, if I had a beef with some man, I would not attack his sister, yet this is precisely what terrorists do, and for people of the western culture, it defies understanding as to how anyone, of any faith, can see that as an OK thing to do.

There are a few other things that westerners have difficulty with when it comes to Islam. Shariah is one but the suggestion that westerners must live under Shariah is totally unacceptable. We also have a bit of trouble with the fact that some Muslims think mutilating female genitalia is OK and that honor killings are understandable.

In the US, you are living in the freest country in the world. If you want to suffer through the fasting of Ramadan, we will support you and we will wish you a joyous Eid, but don’t expect us to join in. Finally, as for the multi-culturalism thing, the US is a “melting pot” of many cultures; if you want to be accepted, become a PART of our culture and do not isolate yourselves from that culture–it’s all about America here.

I am perfectly aware that some who claim to be Christians have persecuted Muslims and I believe there are millions like me who strenuously denounce such actions and in no uncertain terms. This is a major difference we see between our respective cultures–westerners make a lot of noise followed by decisive actions when that happens.

America is not perfect–I don’t claim it to be–but given a choice, I would rather be in this country than any that has ever existed. In the end, Americans are the most tolerant of all cultures, whereas those countries where Muslims are the majority are the least tolerant. But it is definitely a mistake to associate our tolerance with weakness.

I hope you’ve gained something of value here.

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