Ron Paul On NYC Mosque: Should We Blame Christianity For McVeigh’s Actions?

video

by Colby Hall | 12:34 pm, August 24th, 2010

» 96 comments

It’s been said before, and it will probably be said again: Ron Paul is not your typical Republican politician. Appearing on AC 360 last night, fill-in host Sanjay Gupta sought comment from the former Presidential candidate on the controversy surrounding what many are calling the “Ground Zero Mosque.” Paul made clear his frustration in blaming the whole of Islam with the acts of a small radical sect, and compared to the bombing of the Murrow building in Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh.

Paul was booked because of a statement he released last week regarding what he called the “Demagogy of the NYC Mosque,” the full statement of which can be read after the following video clip. The heart of that statement, and his appearance on CNN last night though, can best be summed up by the following rough transcript. Paul said:

Al Qaeda was responsible. Several hundred al Qaeda existed at that time. Maybe there are still several hundred more. That doesn’t mean the whole Muslim religion should be indicted. That was my complaint. McVeigh probably was a Christian, and he bombed the Oklahoma Federal building. Does that mean a Christian church can’t be built near there, and Christianity is to blame? I don’t like that broad brush. That doesn’t mean we should destroy the whole concept of the Muslim religion, if they can bring this out, whether the Mosque is stopped or not, the implication here is that Islam caused 9/11, not a narrow branch of the al Qaeda. To me, that is crucial, because it deals with our foreign policy, it deals with — even in that clip earlier on, Madeleine Albright admitted, she said, well, 500,000 people are killed so be it. If that’s what it takes. So is the Muslim have justification for their worries and concerns.

Update – a loyal reader astutely points out that McVeigh was not in fact an avowed Christian, but claimed to be agnostic in his religious beliefs.

The statement:

Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?

It has been said, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned.” Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are “fiddling while the economy burns.”

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”

Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

The nineteen suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don’t want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be “sensitive” and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.

This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.

Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.

It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives’ aggressive wars.

The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.

Al Qaeda, Ground Zerp Mosque, Park51, Ron Paul, Sanjay Gupta, Timothy McVeigh

Pablo

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

1. There is no ban, period. There is only opposition, protected by the First Amendment.

2. If they’d flown those planes into the towers while screaming “GOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLL!” then opposition to the soccer field would make sense.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Josh-Feldman/1158574704 Josh Feldman

This is why I’m so surprised the Tea Party opposes the mosque. This isn’t just about religious liberty, it’s about following the Constitution even when it’s inconvenient.
AngelPeters

Thank you, Ron Paul, for being the conservative voice of calm and reason in all this. For being an adult and stepping up to the plate when many of your colleagues are just going with the flow of the fear.
Pablo

The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.

Nancy? Really? All I heard was that she wanted to investigate those who oppose it.
Pablo

Josh Feldman said:
This isn’t just about religious liberty, it’s about following the Constitution even when it’s inconvenient.

There is no Constitutional issue. They’ve got their permit. Constitutional harmony ensues.
mikepower

What he is missing is that when McVeigh blew up the building there wasnt celebration in the streets of Christian countries to celebrate the act. There were celebration in Muslim country streets after 911.

That said, they do have the right to build a mosque but it is not right. Maybe the city has decided that it is not right to build any religious house near Ground Zero right now as they have shelved any plans for the rebuilding of the Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed on 911. This delay should be extended to the 911 Mosque as well.

Paul has been getting sympathies from many Repubs recently. This should give them the opportunity to dismiss him as a bit of whacko so they might have lucked out here.
Socrates69

I love Ron Paul.
murf

Ron Paul , is a hippie college kids conservative.

He would isolate Israel and other close allies more than Obama has , if he were president – FACT .

Ron Paul speaks for Ron Paul .
writer

Wait a minute. When Ron was saying businesses have a right of who to serve, the left hated him.
Pablo

Should We Blame Christianity For McVeigh’s Actions?

An interesting question.
TfT

I watched part of this exchange last night; interesting that Colby chose this segment to write about, as opposed to the segment where Ron Paul put Sanja in his place for misrepresenting what Ron and his son said.

Good for Ron Paul; bad for Sanjay.

It’s no wonder CNN’s ratings are in the toilet.
Constantly

murf said:
Ron Paul , is a hippie college kids conservative.

He would isolate Israel and other close allies more than Obama has , if he were president – FACT .

Ron Paul speaks for Ron Paul .

until they find out he wants to disband the dept of education
murf

Constantly – Ha!

Ron Paul would be a dangerous president, I know that’s not popular to say , but he has a naive , unrealistic foreign policy , isolationist agenda , that is not what America needs .
Johnny M

I never understand this line of thinking — it seems like the rational thought put together by a child who cannot critically think. McVeigh did not bomb the OKC federal building in the name of Christianity. Radical Islam was an accessory to the crime of the 9/11 bombers. They are not similar in the least.
MichelleF

Pablo says:
August 24, 2010 at 12:45 pm Pablo(Quote)
1 2
Josh Feldman said:
This isn’t just about religious liberty, it’s about following the Constitution even when it’s inconvenient.

There is no Constitutional issue. They’ve got their permit. Constitutional harmony ensues.

Pablo, as my bumper sticker says, don’t try to confuse liberals with logic and facts. They just don’t want to hear it!!
The Real Royal King

Johnny M said:
I never understand this line of thinking — it seems like the rational thought put together by a child who cannot critically think. McVeigh did not bomb the OKC federal building in the name of Christianity. Radical Islam was an accessory to the crime of the 9/11 bombers. They are not similar in the least.

I do think that OKC is a bit of stretch here. The O’Reilly/Christian fundamentalist inspired murder of Dr. Tiller is much more to the point.

MORE NEWS FOX WON’T COVER:

FOX’S QUEST FOR THOSE FINANCING TERROR,
OUGHT BEGIN WITH A LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
BIN TALAL AND KINGDOM HOLDING COMPANY
ARE OBVIOUS SOURCES OF THIS VILLANY.
paulmdoro

MichelleF said:
Pablo says:
August 24, 2010 at 12:45 pm Pablo(Quote)
1 2
Josh Feldman said:
This isn’t just about religious liberty, it’s about following the Constitution even when it’s inconvenient.

There is no Constitutional issue. They’ve got their permit. Constitutional harmony ensues.

Pablo, as my bumper sticker says, don’t try to confuse liberals with logic and facts. They just don’t want to hear it!!

That is spit-out-the-coffee funny. I need one that says “Conservatives do not understand irony.”
notsofast

Ron, next time get your facts straight before making a fool out of yourself. McVeigh while raised as a Catholic considered himself an Agnostic. He often told people that “science is my religion.”

And unlike the Muslim terrorists who bombed “civilian” sites as well as a govt. site as part of OBL “fatwa” on America, McVeigh bombed the federal building as part of his hatred of what he perceived was the government’s attempt to reduce peoples’ rights.

At Waco in 1993, McVeigh distributed pro-gun rights literature and bumper stickers, such as “When guns are outlawed, I will become an outlaw.” He told a student reporter:

” The government is afraid of the guns people have because they have to have control of the people at all times. Once you take away the guns, you can do anything to the people. You give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist government. The government is continually growing bigger and more powerful and the people need to prepare to defend themselves against government control.”

Gees, Ron, where was his invocation of Christianity? And guess when he blew up the govt. building?

April 19,1995- On the 2nd year anniversary of the Waco disaster.

BTW, Ron, McVeigh served in the Army and received that Bronze Star. Maybe that is what caused him to bomb the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building?

Yeah- let’s blame the Army and its medals, Ron!!
Azarkhan

“McVeigh probably was a Christian, and he bombed the Oklahoma Federal building. Does that mean a Christian church can’t be built near there, and Christianity is to blame?” Ron Paul

Timothy McVeigh didn’t blow up the Federal building in the name of Christianity. The Al Qaeda terrorist’s did destroy the Twin Towers in the name of Islam.

“The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights…”

The Left, in particular Rachel Maddow, already gave your son a lesson in how they view property rights. You should know there a limits on property rights everywhere, from Civil Rights laws to zoning to taxes.
The Real Royal King

MichelleF said:
Pablo, as my bumper sticker says, don’t try to confuse liberals with logic and facts. They just don’t want to hear it!!

Go check your bumper. It’s not there anymore. In it’s place: “Follow Me to the Paper Moon.”

MORE NEWS FOX WON’T COVER:

FOX’S QUEST FOR THOSE FINANCING TERROR,
OUGHT BEGIN WITH A LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
BIN TALAL AND KINGDOM HOLDING COMPANY
ARE OBVIOUS SOURCES OF THIS VILLANY.
murf

Colby , has the FBI ever released documents stating that radical Christianity drove or had anything to do with McVeigh , blowing up the Murrow Building ?
Danimal98367

Michelle,

You should see my bumper sticker. It says “Just because your God said _____, it does not give your permission to LEGISLATE me to do it too.”
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Treacher/542957672 Jim Treacher

McVeigh was an atheist. And Ron Paul is a kook.
The Real Royal King

paulmdoro said:
That is spit-out-the-coffee funny. I need one that says “Conservatives do not understand irony.”

I thought we agreed to keep religion out of our discussions, Paul.

MORE NEWS FOX WON’T COVER:

FOX’S QUEST FOR THOSE FINANCING TERROR,
OUGHT BEGIN WITH A LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
BIN TALAL AND KINGDOM HOLDING COMPANY
ARE OBVIOUS SOURCES OF THIS VILLANY.
paulmdoro

McVeigh was outraged by the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents, especially the latter. Religion was not a factor.
Azarkhan

“It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built.” Ron Paul

Saying the American people are listening to “political demagogues” shows you are as stupid or as dissembling as the Left. The American people are not relying on demagogues, but on their own sense of basic fairness and decency regarding the victims of 9/11. BTW, listening to the will of the people (that 64%) is what is known as democracy. Sorry to hear you do not support that concept.

“The outcry…implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.”

Are you actually so stupid that you don’t know that the 9/11 terrorist’s belief in Islam played a major role, if not the only role, in the destruction of the WTC? It might then surprise you to hear that the Ft. Hood murderer also gave Islam credit. And I’m sure it has escaped your notice that America is at war with adherents of Islam around the globe. Sorry for the “inconvenient truth’s”.
writer

Not getting where you stand on this, King. If Bin Talal is evil and invests in building the NYC mosque, then are you against it being built?
MichelleF

Royal Race-Baiter/Religious Bigot says:

Go check your bumper. It’s not there anymore. In it’s place: “Follow Me to the Paper Moon.”

Nope, it’s still there right next to:

“Raised Repulican, I can help myself thanks”

&

“I love my American Bulldog”!
notsofast

Oh, and Ron- No one is talking about building a place of worship in Tim McVeigh’s name in Oklahoma City!
MichelleF

That should be Republican, before Royal Race-Baiter/Religious Bigot/English Professor points it out.
The Real Royal King

writer said:
Not getting where you stand on this, King. If Bin Talal is evil and invests in building the NYC mosque, then are you against it being built?

Your picayune perstering is boring me. Find a new topic, and a new way to present it.

MORE NEWS FOX WON’T COVER:

FOX’S QUEST FOR THOSE FINANCING TERROR,
OUGHT BEGIN WITH A LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
BIN TALAL AND KINGDOM HOLDING COMPANY
ARE OBVIOUS SOURCES OF THIS VILLANY.
dummy123

Important message…Don’t let a few (20 million) bad apples spoil the bunch.
Has anyone ever heard a Muslim condemn 9/11 without a BUT…. Evil America is also to blame??
paulmdoro

MichelleF said:

Nope, it’s still there right next to:

“Raised Repulican, I can help myself thanks”

Too bad that isn’t true for so many.
Danimal98367

THE ‘ROYAL KING’ MAKES A FUSS AND FUMES OVER
RNC DONATIONS MADE BY FOX NEWS
BUT IT BEGS THE QUESTION OF LOGIC:
TO WHOM DOES msnbc AND GE PAY DUES?
paulmdoro

Azarkhan said:
The American people are not relying on demagogues, but on their own sense of basic fairness and decency regarding the victims of 9/11.

All of them? How do you know for sure?
writer

In other words, King, you have no answer. What a shock.
Azarkhan

paulmdoro said:
All of them? How do you know for sure?

Obviously not people like you. Sorry.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Hogan/179500970 Stephen Hogan

murf said:
He would isolate Israel

Yes, he would, because he doesn’t see any reason for us to be involved. Neither do I.

writer said:
Wait a minute. When Ron was saying businesses have a right of who to serve, the left hated him.

I can speak only for myself, but I don’t ‘hate’ someone just because I disagree with them.
The Real Royal King

MichelleF said:
Royal Race-Baiter/Religious Bigot says: Go check your bumper. It’s not there anymore. In it’s place: “Follow Me to the Paper Moon.” Nope, it’s still there right next to: “Raised Repulican, I can help myself thanks” & “I love my American Bulldog”!

Interesting you should mention that. You know Timothy McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in New York.

So, let me ask this: A Englishman, Reginald Dewspray owned the Queen’s Head, a pub of some reknown in a Cotswold village. He sold it to pursue his dream of opening a foundation garments shop in Manchester. Unfortunately, he developed a terrible allergy to spandex. He sold the shop, at a profit, and bought a Lake District Pub, The Duck and the Goat. Does that make him a Republican?

MORE NEWS FOX WON’T COVER:

FOX’S QUEST FOR THOSE FINANCING TERROR,
OUGHT BEGIN WITH A LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
BIN TALAL AND KINGDOM HOLDING COMPANY
ARE OBVIOUS SOURCES OF THIS VILLANY.
writer

Stephen, you don’t hate people just for having different opinions? You should speak to the King.
paulmdoro

Azarkhan said:
Obviously not people like you. Sorry.

Don’t be sorry. It’s me who should feel sorry for you.
writer

Since the King brought up England, when I was there I think I saw him on TV, playing the role of Mrs. Bucket on a show called Keeping Up Appearances. Mrs. Bucket always put on airs as if she was royalty and not just a middle class Brit.

“Hey, Mrs. Bucket!”

“It’s pronounced, Boquet!”
dlauf87

Timothy Mcvagh was raised catholic but told Time magazine he lost touch with God and “never picked it up again.”
He told The Guardian that he was an agnostic and didn’t believe in hell. Why is the left constantly trying to paint him as an example of a “Christian terrorist?” He was nothing of the sort. (I know Ron Paul is not a leftist, but its the left’s moral equivalence narrative)
The Real Royal King

writer said:
Since the King brought up England, when I was there I think I saw him on TV, playing the role of Mrs. Bucket on a show called Keeping Up Appearances. Mrs. Bucket always put on airs as if she was royalty and not just a middle class Brit. “Hey, Mrs. Bucket!” “It’s pronounced, Boquet!”

That would be “bouquet”. But, you haven’t answered ym question.

MORE NEWS FOX WON’T COVER:

FOX’S QUEST FOR THOSE FINANCING TERROR,
OUGHT BEGIN WITH A LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
BIN TALAL AND KINGDOM HOLDING COMPANY
ARE OBVIOUS SOURCES OF THIS VILLANY.
libra blue

@notsofast, “And unlike the Muslim terrorists who bombed “civilian” sites as well as a govt. site as part of OBL “fatwa” on America, McVeigh bombed the federal building as part of his hatred of what he perceived was the government’s attempt to reduce peoples’ rights.”

Ron Paul is a nut! He isn’t even sure that McVeigh was a Christian, he said “McVeigh PROBABLY was a Christian”. Someone should ask Muslim defenders like Paul how many people have committed murder or attempted murder in the name of Christianity in the last year and a half.

I guess Paul is ignorant of the many Muslim murders and attacks since last February done in the name of Islam in the US alone. Here is a reminder:

“Good moderate Muslim” Nidal Malik Hasan murdered 13 people and injured 30 at Ft. Hood, and Muslim Abdulhakim Muhammad murdered Private Andrew Long and injured Pvt. Quinton I. Ezeagwula at the Little Rock, AK recruiting station, Muslim grad student Abdulsalam Al-Zahrani stabbed to death Binghampton Univ. professor Richard T. Antoun, and attempted attacks like the Christmas Day bomber.

And let’s not forget the Muslim TV station owner who beheaded his wife in Buffalo, NY for seeking a divorce and the woman in Glendale, AZ who was run over by her Muslim father because she was too “Westernized”.

Oh yeah and Ron I don’t think strippers bombed the WTC.
The Real Royal King

The Real Royal King said:
That would be “bouquet”. But, you haven’t answered ym question. MORE NEWS FOX WON’T COVER: FOX’S QUEST FOR THOSE FINANCING TERROR,OUGHT BEGIN WITH A LOOK IN THE MIRROR.BIN TALAL AND KINGDOM HOLDING COMPANYARE OBVIOUS SOURCES OF THIS VILLANY.

my

MORE NEWS FOX WON’T COVER:

FOX’S QUEST FOR THOSE FINANCING TERROR,
OUGHT BEGIN WITH A LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
BIN TALAL AND KINGDOM HOLDING COMPANY
ARE OBVIOUS SOURCES OF THIS VILLANY.
zombietimeshare

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution described McVeigh as “an avowed agnostic” whose sudden last-minute decision to see a Catholic priest just before his execution surprised everyone who knew him.
MichelleF

Royal Race-Baiter/Religious Bigot says”

Does that make him a Republican?

NO, but your posts make you an idiot!
KMLake

zombietimeshare said:
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution described McVeigh as “an avowed agnostic” whose sudden last-minute decision to see a Catholic priest just before his execution surprised everyone who knew him.

I liked this post. It reminds me that we all may face that “aha” moment near the end and really regret all the times we gave in to the hate and fear of people who are different from us. McVeigh failed as a human being and an American citizen in seeing that it’s our duty to support Americans of every variety… regardless of whether or not we like them or how they live. An unexamined life is not worth living. To have a really good and fulfilling life and be really happy near the end of it (as I am) our self-evaluations should have a few recollections that are humiliating in their stupidity and humbling after the fact.
naoma

Was McVeigh really a Christian? I know the poem he wanted to hear before his execution was “Invictus.”
This is a very atheistic poem and a favorite of mine. I doubt very much he was a Christian.:

“It matters not how strait the gate
How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the Master of My Fate
I am the Captain of my Soul

Definitely not a Christian poem.
Azarkhan

Mideast commentators argue that many in the region view the clash as a wholly American spectacle — about political posturing and the lingering wounds of 9/11 — that distracts from genuine troubles such as Iran’s growing clout or Israel’s pressure on Gaza.

“The mosque is not an issue for Muslims and they don’t care about it being built,” wrote Saudi columnist Abdel Rahman Rashed in the pan-Arab Asharq al-Awsat newspaper.

“Some Muslims would even consider building a mosque there would be a permanent reminder of the acts of terrorists, who carried out their crime in the name of Islam,” he added….

“There is indifference,” complained Sheik Fawzi el-Zefzaf, a member of Egypt’s Islamic Scholars Association. “The Arab and Muslim worlds should be supporting the imam,” he said, referring to Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, whose Cordoba Initiative is behind plans for the $100 million, 13-story project about two blocks from where the Twin Towers once stood.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38819775/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/
am_underground

I don’t believe a thing that came out of the whole Oklahoma bombing investigation. There were numerous report that there was a dark skinned man with McVeigh and we never heard anymore about it. Matter of fact, I think witnesses that were at the building said they saw this individual pick up and drive off with McVeigh.

Call me a conspiracy idiot but I still believe McVeigh was just too dumb to pull this off by himself and that it took a much larger and sophisticated group behind him to pull this off. Much like the bomb in the Twin Towers basement.
writer

What irony, Mrs. Bouquet. I mean King. You point out my typo with one of your own. LOL
ChicagoJohn

All that was missing from this story was facts.

Tim McVeigh didn’t yell out “God Is Great” when he attacked the Murrah building.
McVeigh never even talked about religion.

To suggest that there is any kind of parallel misses the fact that the 19 guys who flew those planes into buildings claimed to be doing it for a religion. People are also ignoring the inconvenient fact that the iman who is building the WTC said that the US was an accessory to 9/11.

If a man said that the US was an ‘accessory’ to the Murrah building being blown up… then built an “peaceful” anti-government militia building 2 blocks away from the Murrah building… what do you think the reaction would be?
http://MsUnderestimated.com MsUnderestimated

I am so sick of this Timothy McVeigh BULLX$HIT!!!! I am an OKIE and was living in Oklahoma City the time off the bombing, and Timothy McVeigh was NOT a Christian! He was an atheist who hated authority! “Timothy McVeigh” is just a canard, drug out to try some craptastic moral equivalence to soothe the white-guilt soul.

By the way, Timothy McVeigh did not work alone. There was at least one other Middle Eastern person with him; a Palestinian female. And there was John Doe #2, who was never caught. Read Jayna Davis’ book, “The Third Terorrorist.” This is one of the most underreported parts of any crime ever that I can remember in my 47 years here on this earth.
http://MsUnderestimated.com MsUnderestimated

ChicagoJohn said:
All that was missing from this story was facts.

Tim McVeigh didn’t yell out “God Is Great” when he attacked the Murrah building.
McVeigh never even talked about religion.

To suggest that there is any kind of parallel misses the fact that the 19 guys who flew those planes into buildings claimed to be doing it for a religion. People are also ignoring the inconvenient fact that the iman who is building the WTC said that the US was an accessory to 9/11.

If a man said that the US was an ‘accessory’ to the Murrah building being blown up… then built an “peaceful” anti-government militia building 2 blocks away from the Murrah building… what do you think the reaction would be?

Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
Thelonious Funk

Fine, remove Timothy McVeigh.

Now insert Eric Rudolph.
writer

King, your question “Does that make him a Republican” was preceded by saying the man was in England. So more accurately, you should have asked if that makes him a member of the conservative, centrist, or labour party. The term ‘republican’ is more often used in Ireland. So I’d have to answer no, it doesn’t make him Republican. Tit for tat, King. Answer my question. If it’s discovered that people funding terrorists are also funding the NYC mosque, are you still for having it built?
Pablo

MsUnderestimated said:
And there was John Doe #2, who was never caught. Read Jayna Davis’ book, “The Third Terorrorist.”

Jayna Davis. That’s the name I’ve been unable to remember. Gracias.
CosmosDan

Saying the American people are listening to “political demagogues” shows you are as stupid or as dissembling as the Left. The American people are not relying on demagogues, but on their own sense of basic fairness and decency regarding the victims of 9/11. BTW, listening to the will of the people (that 64%) is what is known as democracy. Sorry to hear you do not support that concept.

“The outcry…implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.”

Are you actually so stupid that you don’t know that the 9/11 terrorist’s belief in Islam played a major role, if not the only role, in the destruction of the WTC? It might then surprise you to hear that the Ft. Hood murderer also gave Islam credit. And I’m sure it has escaped your notice that America is at war with adherents of Islam around the globe. Sorry for the “inconvenient truth’s”.

Even though I know a lot of people sincerely think this , there is no basic fairness and decency in associating the American Muslims who wnat a community center with 9/11. Emotion, fed by dishonest media and fear mongers have overshadowed reason and a true understanding of what fairness and decency calls for.
American Muslims also died in 9/11 as victems and 1st responders, and American Muslims have died in Iraq. To now turn to other American citizens and claim they are insensitive for wanting to pray so close to something they had nothing to do with and no control over is an affront to the principles we claim to hold dear.

Yes, the religion of Islam is used as an excuse and tool by radical terrorists, but there is nothing fair or decent about connecting all 1.5 billion Muslims to the radical views of a few because they share , in name only, a particular religon. We wouldn;t dream of making that blanket connection with Christianity, which was the point Paul was trying to make. The element of fear and distrust being encouraged can be seen in other protests agsint proposed Mosque’s in TN and CA.
libra blue

@ChicagoJohn, I agree.

Imam Rauf told Ed Bradley on “60 Minutes” 19 days after the attack on the WTC that the U.S. was an “accessory” to the attacks on 9/11 and that “Osama bin Laden was made in the USA”.

I tried to post those comments on the AC360 live blog a number of times last night and each and every time I tried to post them they were blocked by Anderson’s moderators. They did, however, post all the inaccuracies about McVeigh being a Christian and the insinuations that he did it in the name of Christianity.

So much for Anderson’s assertion that “truth counts”. I guess he means “CNN’s” truth no matter how inaccurate it is.
puck30

MsUnderestimated said:
I am so sick of this Timothy McVeigh BULLX$HIT!!!! I am an OKIE and was living in Oklahoma City the time off the bombing, and Timothy McVeigh was NOT a Christian! He was an atheist who hated authority! “Timothy McVeigh” is just a canard, drug out to try some craptastic moral equivalence to soothe the white-guilt soul.

After reading all the posts I think it’s safe to say that McVeigh was flat out confused over his Religious Beliefs. Which could have left him open to being a good stooge for somebody.

Will CNN ever learn? Trying to turn the interview into a Rand Paul Hit Piece and trying to use his own Dad is about as low as a cable channel can go. I don’t even think MSNBC has ever tried this.
ganymede

Ron Paul should have been Bush’s Secretary of State. Paul has laid out the immoral history of our oily Middle East policy and wars better than anyone else I’ve ever heard including the arch-devil critic, Noam Chomsky. It started with our arming Bin Laden to get rid of the the Russians in Afghanistan. Big mistake! Even better, he’s demolished the wave of ignorance and prejudice that is sweeping the country and scapegoating everyone of the Muslim faith. Probably more than any one else, Rupert Murdoch, owner of the Saudi-financed media co, is responsible for making what should have been a non-issue one of the most devisive issues in recent memory. All the rabblerousers have jumped on board pandering to the ill-informed, fearful, and simply mean spirited people, but they’re underestimating the voices that are rising to remind Americans that this is the land of the free and property rights are sacrosant especially when it comes to building houses or centers of worship. The hypocrisy of these so-called Conservatives and neo-cons knows no bounds but they’re going to lose big on this one. It’s a little bit like Terry Schiavo, but much worse. While Ron Paul is too much of a Libertarian for my taste – he really doesn’t believe in most any government rules and regulations – this is one time when his extremism is spot on.
TCinAZ

Ron Paul and Ruth’ell Thimmons should Start a Think Tank. Just about Big enough for two Goldfish.

“I explain this not for publicity, nor seeking to win an argument of right or wrong, I explain so that the record is clear as to my thinking and motivations in bombing a government installation”- Timothy McVeigh

Funny how there was No Internet and No Other form of Alternative media back in the day either, Ain’t It? So Timmy WAS a “Christian”. Why? Because Perky and Pretty Boy TOLD You So. That’s why. And Next, we’ll be talking Housewares, with Martha Stewart! So Stay Tuned.
notsofast

ganymede said:
It started with our arming Bin Laden to get rid of the the Russians in Afghanistan

Nice lie. OBL was just one of many, many people fighting in Afghanistan against the Russians and OBL played no significant role in Afghanistan..
DrFunke

No we shouldn’t because people never want their religion to be held to the same standards that other religions are

FREEDOM OF RELIGION! FREEDOM OF SPEECH!

Oh, except Islam which needs to be stopped!
http://www.facebook.com/people/Rodrigo-J-Brito/100000970223699 Rodrigo J. Brito

Tim McVeigh was not an atheist or agnostic. By his own words in the Interview by Time Magazine:

TIME: Are you religious?
McVeigh: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.
TIME: Do you believe in God?
McVeigh:I do believe in a God, yes. But that’s as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way alienate themselves from me and that’s all they are looking for now.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,109478,00.html

Now, the Ron Paul’s argument is fallacious, for the simple reason Tim McVeigh didn’t make his terrorist act by religious motivation. But I really don’t care about the mosque, there’s bad and good people of any religion, any nationality, race, or political idea. Don’t let your prejudices.
Soze

Better to blame strict Constitutionalist whack jobs. Like Ron Paul followers. Museum Shooter comes to mind.

In McVieh’s mind he was defending the Constitution.

Should we ban the Constitution Paul?
ChicagoJohn

“Even though I know a lot of people sincerely think this , there is no basic fairness and decency in associating the American Muslims who wnat a community center with 9/11. ”

1) The Iman himself said that the US was an accessory to 9/11.
You can’t just swerve past that little inconvenient fact that he said that less then a month after 9/11.

You can’t argue that we are being insensitive and unfair without addressing that little nugget.

2) Let’s presume for a second like the Iman did not give the quote above.
Let’s put this in a completely different context, with 19 extremist baptists blowing up an abortion clinic and killing 3000 people.
Do you think that a Baptist church could open 2 blocks away without people protesting?
Heck… can you picture any Baptist WANTING to open a church 2 blocks away, claiming that he/she wanted to do it to ‘heal’???
moneymack

ok i took great pains to read all the posts and responses to this blog. these posts are hilarious, but let me give my take. fox first reported about this mosque back in dec 09. no one cared, the far right started attacking and all hell broke loose say about may. now the initial outrage never targeted the imam, that was after their argument of sensitivity started losing support. they went on to tar the imam as a bad actor because of comments attributed by him on the culpable role the US played on causing 9.11. it was crickets then cause he was of course an ally and emissary for the bush admin.
in 2005 saudi prince buys a stake in fox news. now this is where this gets tricky. this saudi prince is the same person who right after the terror attack he gave the city of New York $20 million bucks along with a lecture about US foreign policy. this was guiliaini’s famous “rub your filthy money on ya chest!” moment with brought him huge accolades. this same prince who murdock 4 years later gladly sold 7% of his newscorp. stock to also a sound of crickets.
fast forward to 2010 now and the same comments that they are attacking imam rauf (similar sentiments mind you of fox news own glenn beck) and the sentiments of the saudi prince owner of newscorp are absolute deal breaker for the building of park51. of course fox news also must tack on the matter of a money trail back to terror ties, of which it is commonly held since 2001 that this same princes royal family routinely sends money to the families of suicide bombers and terrorists, including al quaeda.
whats learned today in the ensuing article about the meeting btwn newscorp and rotana media, (a saudi media company responsible for the airing of the the anti-US/Israel al jazeera network) where we now learn that newscorp $70(0?) million investment is stock owner ship in said media corp.
questions
1. is fox news duplicity ever more apparent? YES
2. does fox repudiate the saudi princes sentiment as well as glenn becks in the same manner as it did the imam raufs? HELL NO
3. should fox loyalist believe now that fox has a sincere agenda in america’s national security interest? HELL NO
4. does fox care that this family sends money to terrorist families? HELL NO
5. does fox care that you give them ratings so that some of this success helps profit saudi princes investment in terrorist families? HELL NO
6. will fox news loyalist look at this as a nothing to see here moment? OF DAMN COURSE THEY WILL!!!
5. should fox be boycotted?
NORBIT

Keep the mosque issue alive, & DEMAND every Democrat state their positions on the mosque location publicly!!!

This is almost as big a losing issue for the Dems as the economy, and the public, more and more,is beginning to question the MOTIVES of seemingly Anti-Christian Democrats!

(Stress the Anti-Christian Democrat narrative.)
Jelperman

Terry Nichols, the man who built the bomb used by McVeigh, was in fact a member of the Christian Identity sect.
Ted-

writer said:
King, your question “Does that make him a Republican” was preceded by saying the man was in England. So more accurately, you should have asked if that makes him a member of the conservative, centrist, or labour party. The term ‘republican’ is more often used in Ireland. So I’d have to answer no, it doesn’t make him Republican. Tit for tat, King. Answer my question. If it’s discovered that people funding terrorists are also funding the NYC mosque, are you still for having it built?

If we discover than Glenn Beck is brain damaged will you admit that you are a racist?
Danimal98367

moneymack – care to link to anything in there? Rotana Media doesn’t air al-jazeera from what I could tell.
KMLake

notsofast said:
Nice lie. OBL was just one of many, many people fighting in Afghanistan against the Russians and OBL played no significant role in Afghanistan..

The Soviet Union, Islamic extremists and our beloved country: A tango designed for three

In the 1970′s:

The Islamists who fought also believed that they were responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union. Osama bin Laden, for example, was asserting the credit for “the collapse of the Soviet Union … goes to God and the mujahideen in Afghanistan … the US had no mentionable role,” but “collapse made the US more haughty and arrogant.”

The Afghans were supported by a number of other countries, with the US and Saudi Arabia offering the greatest financial support. However, the Afghans were also aided by others: the United Kingdom, Egypt, China, Iran, and Pakistan. Ground support, for political reasons, was limited to regional countries.

The United States began training insurgents in, and directing propaganda broadcasts into Afghanistan from Pakistan in 1978.[54] Then, in early 1979, U.S. foreign service officers began meeting insurgent leaders to determine their needs.[55] According to the then US National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski, CIA financial aid to the insurgents within Afghanistan was approved in July 1979, six months before the Soviet Invasion, though after the Soviets were already covertly engaged there. Arms were sent after the formal invasion

United States President Jimmy Carter insisted that what he termed “Soviet aggression” could not be viewed as an isolated event of limited geographical importance but had to be contested as a potential threat to US influence in the Persian Gulf region. The US was also worried about the USSR gaining access to the Indian Ocean by coming to an arrangement with Pakistan.
TCinAZ

DrFunke said:
FREEDOM OF RELIGION! FREEDOM OF SPEECH!

Oh, except Islam which needs to be stopped!
…………

Well take a gander at the K-man’s Book here, and Then talk me about the Freedoms and Rights that their So-Called “Religion” is due.

http://g33klite.com/index.php/facts/general/299-the-controversial-tahrirolvasyleh-book

Because it’s their “If Yous” and their “Eligibles” that I found to be the Most “interesting” parts of the book, since it’s like he’s talking about the 90′ NBA or NFL Draft Stateside.

Oh, and Btw, that’s the Same Khomeini who Banned Ahmadinejad and HIS Merry Band of 12′ers in 83′ because, WHOA! I Know That I’M F@CKNUTS, But THESE Guys!? Well They’re CUCKOO For The Koran And For Starting To Kill Kuffars, Yesterday!

In Other words, He banned Them from making ANY Public Speeches about their being opposed to Iran’s hindering the Twelfth Imam’s (The Mahdi’s) Return, on account of Iran’s being just ‘Too Darn Peaceful’ At The Time.

Yup. THAT Iran. Just One of Islam’s Homes of the Public Hanging and Stoning of Women according to their Own Rumor and Innuendo Islamic “Laws”. i.e, I heard from a guy, who heard from a guy (etc.) that She, some pre-teen, teen or adult female who was seen with a non-relative Male is a “WHORE!” So She Has To DIE! Oh, and Call The Good Girls (for now ) so they Too may celebrate this Righteous Occasion W/Us! Ya’ know, the Tongue-Cluckers?

Lastly, You may also remember that Iran’s the Birthplace of Hezbollah and Islam’s Terror War against Us and the Proverbial “West” that began in 79′ . So Yes, by All Means, Let’s Open our Arms To Imam Faisal Ruffie and give him a Big Wet One Too while we’re At It! Because it’s not as if The Founders Didn’t Forewarn us about Them.

“It is a settled policy of America, That as Peace is better than war, War is better than tribute; The United States, while they wish for war with no nation, Will buy peace with None.” – James Madison, Fourth President Of The United States Of America
Danimal98367

If terrorism funders are funding the Ground Zero Mosque, should building be allowed? Yes.
If terrorist teachings (the kind unprotected by the Constitution) are discovered in the Mosque, then actions should be taken.
If it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the intent of the Mosque is terrorist activities, it should be stopped. Right?
If the Mosque is harbouring illegal aliens or known terrorists, then action should be taken.
But building it with permits – allowable. Insensitive? Yes, a little (even if this group was 100% well meaning and moderate), but it’s still allowable.

Sorry Fox News folks but if funding by people who also fund terrorism is reason to shut something down, Fox News with it’s ties to Prince Whatever (he owns 7% of News Corp and they own 9% of his network) would mean they have to shut down. He has funded Palestinian families who lost family members serving as suicide bombers and said America should think hard about what 9/11 tells us about ourselves and Islam…

And what about any time a terrorist made a charitable donation to a Christian group?
esd2000

ChicagoJohn said:
“Even though I know a lot of people sincerely think this , there is no basic fairness and decency in associating the American Muslims who wnat a community center with 9/11. ”

1) The Iman himself said that the US was an accessory to 9/11.
You can’t just swerve past that little inconvenient fact that he said that less then a month after 9/11.

You can’t argue that we are being insensitive and unfair without addressing that little nugget.

2) Let’s presume for a second like the Iman did not give the quote above.
Let’s put this in a completely different context, with 19 extremist baptists blowing up an abortion clinic and killing 3000 people.
Do you think that a Baptist church could open 2 blocks away without people protesting?
Heck… can you picture any Baptist WANTING to open a church 2 blocks away, claiming that he/she wanted to do it to ‘heal’???

So you’re advocating condemning all Baptists because of the actions of 19 Baptists? How about no more Catholic churches within 2 blocks of grade schools.
writer

Ted, you didn’t get the memo. I’m a black Muslim now, so I can be anti-semitic and support segregation, and you’re not allowed to say anything. It’d be politically incorrect.
BobbysJury

Thank God we live in a country which affords us all, the Right to be and do Wrong. Yep, even phonies like Ron Paul and Rawoooof.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Drew-De-La-Vera/597053531 Drew De La Vera

here’s a something some of you clueless people have forgotten. 1st the 19 hijackers didn’t do what they did for Islam they did what they did as a retaliation for our intervention in the internal affairs of many middle eastern nations and occupying holy land their faith in their twisted version of Islam gave them the faith and the balls to pull it off. 2nd for you dummies who want to be so technical about timothy McVeigh not being christian let me put it an other way. when a radical fundamentalist christian kills an abortion doctor should all Christians be blamed? if a church was built a few blocks from where a doctor was murdered by a christian would people be protesting how that’s in bad taste? some of you really need to get a clue. The law (the constitution) backs what Paul is saying on this one. once again this man has shown he is all about liberty and the rule of law not forming opinions and decisions based on emotion.
KMLake

Drew De La Vera said:
here’s a something some of you clueless people have forgotten. 1st the 19 hijackers didn’t do what they did for Islam they did what they did as a retaliation for our intervention in the internal affairs of many middle eastern nations and occupying holy land their faith in their twisted version of Islam gave them the faith and the balls to pull it off. 2nd for you dummies who want to be so technical about timothy McVeigh not being christian let me put it an other way. when a radical fundamentalist christian kills an abortion doctor should all Christians be blamed? if a church was built a few blocks from where a doctor was murdered by a christian would people be protesting how that’s in bad taste? some of you really need to get a clue. The law (the constitution) backs what Paul is saying on this one. once again this man has shown he is all about liberty and the rule of law not forming opinions and decisions based on emotion.

I think I might actually love you man. Good job.
KMLake

PS Drew De La Vera… You are better than insults and verbal abuse. You have something valuable to say. Don’t allow the discounting of your analysis to be deminished by name calling. You are way too smart for that.
CosmosDan

ChicagoJohn said:
. ”

1) The Iman himself said that the US was an accessory to 9/11.
You can’t just swerve past that little inconvenient fact that he said that less then a month after 9/11.

You can’t argue that we are being insensitive and unfair without addressing that little nugget.

I’ll be glad to address it. Imam Rauf said although we didn’t deserve it our policies in the middle east were accessories to the 9/11 attack. Many non Muslim Americans might be willing to acknowledge that our decades of meddling in the Middle East had something to do with the 9/11 attack. As we defend ourselves and work toward peace its wise to examine our policies toward the Middle East and stop doing things like supporting cruel dictators. Glenn Beck for one seems to agree.
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201004150070

ChicagoJohn
2) Let’s presume for a second like the Iman did not give the quote above.
Let’s put this in a completely different context, with 19 extremist baptists blowing up an abortion clinic and killing 3000 people.
Do you think that a Baptist church could open 2 blocks away without people protesting?
Heck… can you picture any Baptist WANTING to open a church 2 blocks away, claiming that he/she wanted to do it to ‘heal’???

Let’s fill out the analogy.
Over 9 years later a group of Baptists that have lived and worshiped in that area for some time, denounced the violent actions of those extremists, and had no connection to the attackers decide to build a community center
2 blocks away, partly to help heal lingering anger because Christianity teaches them to reconcile, and partly because they got a great buy on a building that had been abandoned ever since the tragedy, and, from which you can’t see the actual site of the abortion center. Let’s also add that other Baptists died in that same attack and some died trying to help the victims.
Does it seem difference once the details are spelled out, because it does to me. I understand the emotion of the issue, but my hope is that by thinking clearly we are able to make choices that are not just emotion based. Especially when dishonest media is trying to manipulate the situation for their own profits. Stop letting them open the wound and encourage misdirected resentment.. We need to be alert and wary and defend ourselves but we also need to seek peace and not surrender our principles out of unwarranted fear. Innocent Baptists or Muslims should not be treated any different than any other Americans.
KMLake

CosmosDan said:
I’ll be glad to address it. Imam Rauf said although we didn’t deserve it our policies in the middle east were accessories to the 9/11 attack. Many non Muslim Americans might be willing to acknowledge that our decades of meddling in the Middle East had something to do with the 9/11 attack. As we defend ourselves and work toward peace its wise to examine our policies toward the Middle East and stop doing things like supporting cruel dictators. Glenn Beck for one seems to agree.http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201004150070 Let’s fill out the analogy.Over 9 years later a group of Baptists that have lived and worshiped in that area for some time, denounced the violent actions of those extremists, and had no connection to the attackers decide to build a community center2 blocks away, partly to help heal lingering anger because Christianity teaches them to reconcile, and partly because they got a great buy on a building that had been abandoned ever since the tragedy, and, from which you can’t see the actual site of the abortion center. Let’s also add that other Baptists died in that same attack and some died trying to help the victims.Does it seem difference once the details are spelled out, because it does to me. I understand the emotion of the issue, but my hope is that by thinking clearly we are able to make choices that are not just emotion based. Especially when dishonest media is trying to manipulate the situation for their own profits. Stop letting them open the wound and encourage misdirected resentment.. We need to be alert and wary and defend ourselves but we also need to seek peace and not surrender our principles out of unwarranted fear. Innocent Baptists or Muslims should not be treated any different than any other Americans.

Damn woman … How amazing are you? Jeez.. you said that in a way that needed to be said. Good on Ya
Raygun

YES! Ron Paul is the return of the good old principled gutsy libertarians in the Republican party. This is where the Republican party was and should always have been before it was hijacked: For small government.
KMLake

Raygun said:
YES! Ron Paul is the return of the good old principled gutsy libertarians in the Republican party. This is where the Republican party was and should always have been before it was hijacked: For small government.

OK… I could possibly support Rand Paul. So how does this American Patriot line up with the defense of the Constitutionally guarnteed rights of American Citizens who happen to be Gay?
CosmosDan

KMLake said:
Damn woman … How amazing are you? Jeez.. you said that in a way that needed to be said. Good on Ya

um, Amazing enough to be a bearded guy named Dan. ;} but thanks for the support.
http://sharethisurlaboutglennbeck.com/ GlennBeckReview

It’s not always the case, but Ron Paul was right on this one. Demagogues like Beck are undermining the efforts of our troops and our national security with their idiotic and – in Beck’s case – hypocritical attacks on Islam. See http://www.sharethisurlaboutglennbeck.com for more on this.
KMLake

CosmosDan said:
um, Amazing enough to be a bearded guy named Dan. ;} but thanks for the support.

LMFAO Howdy Dan
KMLake

KMLake<<< Baptist (full emersion baptism in a Four Square Baptist Church 1960's) says: Hate is Wrong, fear makes a liar out of faith, persecuting minorities (or anyone else who might be different from us) is not what God intends us to be doing on this earth.
FearMonger

CosmosDan said:
Let’s fill out the analogy.

Let’s do….

What would be the comparison between the outrage from Christains over OKC and the outrage from Muslims over 9/11? Would it be fair to say that Christians were just as ‘outraged’ by OKC as they were about 9/11? Would it be fair to say the ‘outrage’ from Muslims over either one was significanly less (per capita of course)?

Questions that deserve honest answers if we are drawing parallels.

btw… something quite telling IMO. I did a Mediaite search of ‘McVeigh’. 18 hits in the past 6 months. How long ago was that anyway? How many non-white non-Christian terrorist attacks since that isolated RWE ‘acted stupidly’?

Then I did another search… ‘Nidal Hasan’. Big Surprise! Fewer hits! How long ago was that? So I figured it must have been an aberration so I typed in ‘Fort Hood’…. same results. Hmmmm.

The next time I have time I’ll search Mediaite for ‘Christmas Bomber’ and ‘Times Square Bomber’ but I already have an idea what the results will be.

To the willfully obtuse out there…. let me know if i need to spell any of this out for you.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Denis-Roussel/1513080544 Denis Roussel

As I’ve heard it, Tim Mcveigh was an avowed agnostic, not a practicing Christian. Even if he had been a Christian, Christianity does not seek to rule the world. Islam does.
truthbknown

notsofast said:
Ron, next time get your facts straight before making a fool out of yourself. McVeigh while raised as a Catholic considered himself an Agnostic. He often told people that “science is my religion.” And unlike the Muslim terrorists who bombed “civilian” sites as well as a govt. site as part of OBL “fatwa” on America, McVeigh bombed the federal building as part of his hatred of what he perceived was the government’s attempt to reduce peoples’ rights. At Waco in 1993, McVeigh distributed pro-gun rights literature and bumper stickers, such as “When guns are outlawed, I will become an outlaw.” He told a student reporter: ” The government is afraid of the guns people have because they have to have control of the people at all times. Once you take away the guns, you can do anything to the people. You give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist government. The government is continually growing bigger and more powerful and the people need to prepare to defend themselves against government control.” Gees, Ron, where was his invocation of Christianity? And guess when he blew up the govt. building? April 19,1995- On the 2nd year anniversary of the Waco disaster. BTW, Ron, McVeigh served in the Army and received that Bronze Star. Maybe that is what caused him to bomb the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building? Yeah- let’s blame the Army and its medals, Ron!!

You obvouisly didn’t read the article to closely and just went off the title. He did mention ‘probably was a christian’. Regardless, we don’t blame christianity everytime a christian murders someone. This whole issue comes down to one question. Do you believe in the Constitution or not?
THE VOICE OF REASON

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

Muslims are free to practice their faith wherever they wish to do so in this country. If they want to drop their rug and pray in the middle of ground zero, they have that right, but I think that we can all agree that people would stare at them because it would be in poor taste. As a New Yorker I would not mind a Mega Mosque being built in the city, just not at ground zero. Nearly ten years after this horrible attack, even the Greek Orthodox Church has yet to have been rebuilt, yet we can build a brand new Mega Mosque?

In case you didn’t read the article, Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian. Believe me when I say that I am the last person to defend Christianity, as it has been an incredibly destructive force throughout history, but there is a bit of a disconnect here. Christians did not run through the streets in celebration when Oklahoma City was bombed, but Muslims across the world celebrated in the streets after 911. Granted, many Muslims were just as horrified by these actions as Westerners, but there were many who were happy to see the towers fall.

Yes, there are a lot of molestations going on in the Catholic church, but there is a considerable difference between touching a few young boys, and murdering thousands of innocent civilians. Rape is undoubtedly wrong, but I would rather be raped a thousand times over than see just one innocent person murdered, let alone thousands.

Are a few bad seeds enough to condemn an entire faith? Of course not! Christianity has its fair share of rapists, Nazi’s, and the KKK — but this sort of hate is not in line with true Christian morals, and these people are simply not real Christians. Islam is a nonviolent religion, and any “muslim” who feels the need to kill is no more a Muslim than the KKK are Christians. That being said, this is only the tip of the ice-burg.

In America a person is free to practice their faith, within certain limits. Rastafarians may see marijuana as a sacrament, but it is illegal, and so despite their beliefs they are not allowed to practice this belief in public. If I were to say that my religion condones the sacrifice of small puppies and the rape of small children, I would be crucified by PETA and be arrested the second that I tried to put those beliefs into practice. Rape is illegal, murder is illegal, as well as cruelty to animals, and no matter how much I may believe in these things, I am not free to practice those beliefs in this country. If you think that Americans truly have freedom of religion, then you are an idiot, because that freedom, along with the freedom of press and speech, have many boundaries.

Islam certainly does not condone rape, the sacrifice of puppies, or the use of drugs…. so why do I bring this up? Because a lot of the beliefs in Islam certainly go against American customs and laws — most obviously their treatment of women. Women in this country have the freedom to vote, to work, to wear whatever clothing they see fit, and to be treated as equal citizens. Muslims do not allow their wives or daughters to work, they force them to hide themselves behind veils, and their idea of marriage is more in line with the sale of cattle. Do not take these words the wrong way, because oddly enough, I think they have the right to act however their culture seems fit, but they do not have the right to force their culture onto our own.

White women in Stockholm are frequently spit upon, called whores, and in many cases are actually raped by muslim men because they are caught walking down the street past sundown without the company of a man. This may fly in the middle east, but women in the west are free to go as they please, without being scrutinized and publicly humiliated. The fact is that the average Muslim is disgusted by the western way of life, and the reason so many Muslims were celebrating in the streets after 911 is because they saw that way of life crumble to the ground. People are free to come to this country, and to bring their beliefs with them, but they need to respect the culture that is already here.

When will we draw the line and say that we have had enough? France has banned the burka, and bless them for it. As much as I loath the French, kudos to them for retaining their standards. Burkas go against the French mentality. It is a place where women are expected to make themselves presentable, moreover glamorous, and so they will not tolerate the forceable repression of a woman’s freedom. How can we allow the repression of women in our own country, and at the same time, ban Rastafarians from smoking a little pot? Pot is practically harmless, especially when compared to alcohol, but the main point to take from this is that what little damage pot does do, it does to the individual user. A muslim man who forces his wife and children to cover themselves up is not damaging himself, he is damaging others — and it is when personal freedoms such as this are infringed upon that religious freedoms lose their ground.

The fact is that this debate far surpasses the clashing of two major religions, it is the clashing of two completely different cultures. In the east, women can be beaten and treated as slaves — in the west, they are equals. Personally, I cannot say that either way is more preferable to the other because that would be a biased opinion, but I think it is safe to say that these cultures cannot survive next to one another. If the west is so abominable, then why do the Muslims want to live here? If they want to enjoy the benefits of this country, then they should submit to our culture, because we will not submit to Islam, and whether or not it is the case, building a mosque next to ground zero appears to be a direct statement that the West must submit to Islam — and appearances are everything.

If Muslims wish to separate themselves from 911, then they need to place their mosque in a separate part of the city. New York is MASSIVE, and there are plenty of acceptable places where this could be built. By building this mosque at ground zero they are only throwing fuel to a fire that is already out of control. The controversy here is not directed at the act of building a mosque, but rather on the lack of tact as to where it should be built. If anything should be built at ground zero, it should be a center devoted to bringing all faiths together, a religious education center of sorts. By building this mosque, Muslims are only perpetuating the Westerner’s fear that Islam is trying to take over the world, and when you look at England, Germany, Sweden, and the rest of the Western world, this fear gains rationality. There may be many good Muslims out there who respect the West’s right to retain it’s own culture, but it is clear that in Europe there has been a meltdown of traditions. Fortunately France has taken a stand for what they believe in — when will the rest of the western world join them?
FearMonger

THE VOICE OF REASON said:
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

Thanks for that post. It was diplomatic and reasonable. That’s why the leftwingers will rip it to shreds.