Owen Jones Spars With Piers Morgan On Declaring Ukraine Genocide But Not Gaza

Host Piers Morgan and Guardian commentator Owen Jones clashed over whether Israel is committing “genocide” in Gaza, as Jones pressed Morgan with a statistical comparison to the Russia-Ukraine conflict in a clip that has since gone viral.

In the ranging but heated interview on TalkTV’s Piers Morgan Uncensored, the pair sparred over the nature and legitimacy of the Israeli campaign which has killed more than 11,000 Gazans, including over 4,500 children, according to Palestinian authorities. The Israeli campaign started as a response to a Hamas attack on Israel on October 7, killing over 1,400 Israeli civilians.

At one point, Jones confronted Morgan with a look at the numbers killed that highlighted the severity of the situation in Gaza, pointing out the death toll in Gaza, including a large number of children, drawing a parallel with the number of civilian dead in the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

Jones emphasized the disparity in labeling one situation as genocide while not doing the same for the other.

Mid-debate the interviewee said: “Indiscriminate bombing: Gaza. They’ve dropped more than two Hiroshima Bombs on East London in just five weeks.”

The host prompted: “Okay, let me ask you to…”

Jones interrupted: “No, no, no. I need to say this.”

Morgan approved.

Jones continued: “15,000 people have been killed by the Israelis in Gaza. That’s one in every 200 people there. If you compare it to Ukraine, that would mean 300 thousand Ukrainian civilians. The death toll is huge. The UN says 10,000 civilians have died in Ukraine since last February. But in just five weeks, a much smaller country has a higher death toll. How can you call that genocide in one case but not in the other?”

Morgan engaged and attempted to differentiate between the objectives of Israel and Russia in their respective conflicts, suggesting that the intent and outcomes should influence the characterisation of these events, replying: “Well, I’ve just answered by saying if Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would simply vote…”

Jones cut in: “So would Russia.”

Morgan continued: “…they would nuke…”

Jones added: “…they would nuke Ukraine.”

The host said: “Russia wants to take over Ukraine…”

His guest replied: “Yes, and [Israel] wants to take over Gaza.”

Morgan continued: “…and [Russia] will kill any Ukrainians, men, women, and children, to do that.”

Jones, however, was persistent in his comparison, questioning the inconsistency in Morgan’s stance on the two situations. He stressed the high death rate in Gaza again and argued that the international community’s response and terminology used should reflect the gravity of the situation.

Jones said: “The death rate in Gaza is much higher.”

Morgan replied: “Wait. The only reason it hasn’t happened is that Ukraine has a strong military supported by the US and is fighting hard.”

Jones argued: “Russia has nuclear weapons and a strong army…”

Morgan tried to interrupt: “Let me ask you…”

“No, no,” Jones insisted, “you’ve got to accept this. Ukraine’s death rate is lower.”

The host repled: “I’ve told you why.”

Jones then continued, suggesting that both nations had territorial ambitions

“You haven’t explained. Israel intends to permanently occupy,” he said.

Morgan agreed: “Yes, which they shouldn’t do. Can we agree on that?”

The clip quickly went viral on X, formerly Twitter, where users reflected on the debate that highlighted and exposed a broader point on how media figures and journalists portray and interpret global events, influencing public perception and understanding.

In a tweet following the interview, Jones explained his point: “If you consider Russia’s invasion of Ukraine to be genocide, then why not Israel’s invasion of Gaza? The death rate is much higher. The overall destruction is much worse. The genocidal rhetoric is there. So why not?”

Fromer guest Mohammed Hijab prompted viewers to watch the debate in full: “It might be one of the most enjoyable things you watch in your life.”