CNN’s Pamela Brown Battles MAGA Oklahoma Superintendent in Wild Throwdown Over Religion in Schools

CNN anchor Pamela Brown threw down in an eleven-and-a-half-minute long interview Monday morning with Oklahoma State Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters on the issue of religion in public education.

Brown kicked off the segment by noting that President-elect Donald Trump has “repeatedly vowed to abolish” the federal Department of Education, a call that “has been echoed” by Walters, who is the top education official in Oklahoma.

Walters has advocated for Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy to close the DOE on “day one,” Brown reported, and “in the wake of Trump’s win, he announced the creation of a new Department of Religious Freedom and Patriotism in the state.”

Walters was requiring all Oklahoma public schools to show students a video that included him making that announcement and leading a prayer for Trump, Brown added, but several districts were ignoring that mandate. He was also facing two lawsuits from a previous mandate requiring schools to incorporate the Bible into lesson plans for grades 5 through 12.

Last week, Brown said, Walters had announced the purchase of 500 Bibles, “which appear to be the Trump-endorsed ‘God Bless the USA’ version for use in classrooms across the state.” These Bibles sell for about $60 each.

Brown kicked off the interview by mentioning that the Oklahoma Attorney General said Walters didn’t have the authority to force schools to show the prayer video, and challenged Walters to explain.

“What authority do you have to mandate schools to show your prayer video, where you also pray for President-elect Trump?” she asked.

Walters replied by complaining about “gaslighting from the left,” “this network pushing lies about what’s going on across America,” and then launching into a short monologue about how Trump “has a clear mandate” — including wanting “prayer back in schools,” “radical leftism out of the classroom,” and “our kids to be patriotic” — and “we’re going to enact it in the state of Oklahoma.”

“I’m not going to take the bait on what you said about gaslighting from this network,” said Brown before asking him again about what was the specific authority to force this prayer video to be played in schools, noting that there were more than 14,000 signatures on a petition to impeach him.

Walters retorted that he appreciated Brown “pushing that left wing narrative here” and Brown interjected — “it’s not a left wing narrative!” — to ask about the petition again that had “raised this issue of religious liberty.”

Walters replied that the Constitution was “crystal clear on religious liberty,” and he knew that “the left doesn’t want our kids to know anything about the role the Bible played in American history” and have “driven the Bible out of schools, driven prayer out of schools, and everything in education has gotten worse since before we had a federal Department of Education.”

“All right, first of all, the Constitution is not crystal clear on that,” said Brown, noting that the document “doesn’t have God in it” and bringing up the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, “which the Supreme Court has routinely said, it requires the separation of church and state in public schools. There are many cases that are –”

Walters attempted to interrupt but Brown cut him off — “Hold on, I’m speaking” — before continuing that the Supreme Court has “routinely ruled” on the topic.

“You went after woke teachers and the radical left in your announcement for attacking religious liberty, but your critics are saying that by requiring Bibles in every classroom and requiring this prayer video, you’re trying to impose your religion on students,” said Brown, but his critics said he was violating the Establishment Clause, by requiring Bibles and the prayer video, noting that scholars did in fact say the Constitution was “crystal clear on freedom of religion, not enforcing one religion — your religion — on students.”

“Look, CNN doesn’t have to like it,” retorted Walters. “Left wing activists don’t have to like it –”

“I’m just talking about facts,” Brown interjected. “It’s not my opinion.”

“The Bible is a historical document,” he said. “You can’t rewrite history. Okay? The reality is, is the Bible was what drove so much of so many of the consequential events in American history. Why did the Pilgrims come to America? Why in the world did Abraham Lincoln mention God and God’s Providence in so many of his speeches? How do you explain Martin Luther King Jr.’s letter from a Birmingham jail, where he goes through Biblical examples, if the left continues to censor the Bible from our history classes?”

“Listen, the left doesn’t have to like it,” he continued. “They can be offended by it. But we’ve got to teach history to our young people to make this country great again. President Trump has a clear mandate. Our kids have to understand what made America great in the first place.”

Brown attempted again to ask about the criticism that his actions constituted an attempt to enforce Christianity on the students. “Just last week, this federal judge ruled it’s unconstitutional for the ten commandments to be shown in a classroom — how is what you’re trying to do different?” she asked.

Walters dismissed the court ruling as coming from “a radical federal judge way out of step with the American people” and insisted “we have the right to express our religious beliefs.”

“We’re not telling kids they have to pray,” he said, “but we are telling kids they have the right to pray if they so choose. And the left has driven that out of schools because of their hatred for Christianity and people of faith.”

Brown noted that while the Bible did have an “important” role in U.S. history, the country was not founded on a specific religion, so why not also include other religious texts like the Koran or Book of Mormon, and asked again about the petition calling for him to be impeached.

“Everyone who signed that list, everybody suing me, they’re the same people that want Gender Queer and Flamer in the classroom –” he began.

“That’s not necessarily true!” Brown interjected again. “You are painting everyone with a broad brush.”

Walters insisted that the “reality is these people want radical gender pornography in the classroom, but they don’t want the Bible.”

“But they would say the Bible has pornography and incest and rape,” Brown countered. “So what do you say to that?”

“Do you think the Bible is on the same plane as Gender Queer?” he asked.

“That’s not what I’m saying,” Brown said, shaking her head.

“That’s laughable — the Bible is the most read book in American history,” he said, calling it “academic malpractice” that the left didn’t agree with “teaching American exceptionalism” and how the Bible played a “huge role” in U.S. history.

Brown asked again about teaching other religious texts, Walters replied that would be fine for “a world history class.”

When Walters mentioned that Thomas Jefferson had said that our rights come from God, Brown corrected him.

“Hold on!” she said, pointing out that Jefferson fought for freedom of religion, and that was one of the top three accomplishments listed on his gravestone, plus John Adams has signed a treaty saying that America was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

Brown then brought up how Oklahoma was “48th in the country” for education, and Walters was not just spending money on Bibles, but these specific Trump-endorsed Bibles that cost $60 each.

Walters insisted that Oklahoma was “in the middle of a turnaround here because we are following President Trump’s agenda” to “have school choice,” “merit pay,” and by “rejecting this left wing ideology in the classroom” and “promoting American exceptionalism.”

The exasperated anchor asked again about the cost of these specific Bibles, and why if he wanted Oklahoma schools to teach it, he couldn’t have purchased cheaper versions. (Searching for Bibles on Amazon brings up many editions that are $5 or less.)

Walters replied that they were teaching American history in Oklahoma and “that includes the Bible, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights,” which were all included in this Trump Bible.

“Why not a cheaper Bible where you could save a lot of money in taxpayer dollars?” Brown tried again. (Those other documents seem likely to be included in U.S. history textbooks as well.)

Walters said it was so the students “could understand the full context of the founding documents” and understand “what makes America the greatest country in the history of the world.:

“Again, look, the media doesn’t have to like it,” he continued. “But the reality is the American people have rejected this gaslighting and have put President Trump back in the White House with a clear agenda. And we are going to stand right behind the president every step of the way.”

“Okay and again, just to be clear, this isn’t about the media not liking it,” Brown concluded. “I’m talking about your critics, and whether you’re willing to consider their point of view because, as you know, you oversee an entire education system in the state of Oklahoma with people with varying viewpoints. And we want to bring that to light. It’s a really important conversation. It’s going to continue on.”

Watch the clip above via CNN.