I bet Bill’O just can’t wait to celebrate 9/11.

Religion is destroying this planet.  What is it about Christianity that makes people so intolerant? Do they teach you to be close minded in Sunday school?

The dirty secret no one on their side wants to admit: Republicans enjoyed 9/11. 

They saw it as a chance to exploit a tragedy and use it demonize anyone who opposed any of their apologies. They loved the idea of starting the Iraq War for the same reasons. 
They love 9/11 anniversaries because they hope it will bring their dismal public image back to their glory days of post 9/11 George W. Boosh.But it’s never going to happen. 

Ever heard it said that secularism is a religion sans a deity figure.
I think it’s pretty clear that Progressives are the most intolerant group, at least as defined groups go.

Ever try being a black conservative? – pro-life? See how tolerant Progressives are then.

Today’s Progressives are yesterday’s Marxists – it’s just too bad for them Europe picked right now to implode!
lol

Yes because progressives who believe in equal rights for everyone are waaaaaayyy more intolerant than christians who want to discriminate against gays, transgenders, muslims, jews, mormons, women’s rights and telling people what they can and cannot do with their lives.  I totally see your point…….

“disrespect to religion in america” =  freedom of religion

liberals and progressives are more open to new ideas and ways of being than conservatives

and they’re also more tolerant of Difference

i agree

Bob is obviously a right-wing plant designed to make the left look idiotic.

Bob is obviously a right-wing plant designed to make the left look idiotic.

That oreo Michael Steele may not have heard of that.  That guy who is being paid, according to a moron, I mean liberal, Herman Cain, probably never heard that.  Rubio who isn’t acting as he should may not have heard that either.

Give me a break.  The only tolerance liberals/progressives/socialist/whathaveyou has is for the attacks on their politic opponents.

I think I’ll leave this comment section…I’m afraid lightning will strike here anytime.

I would think that first responders’ would be more worried about why cancer isn’t covered, despite a study of NYFD that showed an 18% jump in rates that was published this month.

I’m sorry.  It is much more fun to make up fake outrage than talk about something that is complex.

As long as “Difference” doesn’t mean someone who fails to share their political views…

well, cheney not only admitted he used 9.11 to cross over to the dark side, he reveled in it!

Says the party that constantly runs on “don’t let the gays get married or it will anger the magical sky God”

Last I checked, it was the GOP that forced Steele out of his job and never gave him a chance.

you obviously haven’t spent much time in liberal enclaves…..

live and let live

liberals, by nature, don’t care what you do with your body, your mind

conservatives appear awfully concerned with my body and my mind

you’re obviously not too familiar with the concept of Difference

hint:  derrida (check him out)

Last I checked, it was Steele who screwed up, his color had nothing to do with it.

They’re “tolerant” of the violent rhetoric from the Black Caucus, union leaders, and Vice-President; but they’re apoplectic if Rush Limbaugh says he wants to see Obama’s (Euro-Socialist) policies fail.

Right – and the fact that the GOP moved their 2004 NYC convention date into September to milk the tragedy was just coincidence? And the cottage industry of crappy country songs and 9/11 memorabilia that sprang up on the right was all done with the purest of intentions?

The Mayor should have religious figures at the event because it would show the world – particularly the radical Islamists - the religious diversity that we celebrate in America. And how those different religions – large and small – can co-exist in this world. That the centuries of religious wars and bloodshed can be overcome.

The US is full of religions of all shapes and sizes. And we’ve shown, again, that they can all get along. Imagine the message that would be sent if we had Islamic clergy at the ceremony?

This is a terrible blunder by Mayor Bloomberg. America is a religiously tolerant country and showing the world that we are is one of our strengths.

Your post is the definition of irony, as you start out with the term “Oreo” for former RNC chairman Michael Steele.

I know the definition of tolerance and could even cite the etymology of the term, which is why I don’t tolerate asshats like you.

You’re right, I haven’t spent much time in, say, San Francisco with the folsom street fair, one of the most depraved activities in this country.

And you completely ignored the basis of my statement: they don’t like differing opinions.  Especially of colored people, that seems incredibly racist.

[quote]liberals, by nature, don’t care what you do with your body, your mind[/quote]

… only if you are liberal, poor, or a minority.

you are sick….as are you darla for agreeing with crazy shit like that

Wow, were your ancestors Romans or something?

Doesn’t Christianity practice “condemning the sin, but not the sinner”? That sounds pretty sinister to me.

And another point is, just how can you discriminate against an ephemoral identity, when we all have one?

lol

“crazy shit” is cheney’s pride in authorizing torture because of 9.11

Um, you do know that was parroting of what liberals said?  I mean, I’m not jumping to the conclusion that you’re stupid beyond words, that that you’re incredibly ignorant of how liberals have treated those people.  OK, I am jumping to the conclusion that words can’t describe how stupid you are. Michael Steele was pelted with oreos.  Jeanine Garofalo said that of Herman Cain.  And Harry Reid said that of Rubio.  That was liberals in action and they refused to condemn their own.

have you been to folsom street fair?

Modern interpretations of the first amendment are that government must not make laws that favor or disfavor belief or non-belief.  If the memorial is about the people killed, then the people killed had religious identities.  There are plenty of religious leaders from less widely known religions who would support the idea of religious leaders in the ceremony even if their faiths were not featured on stage.

You mean, freedom “from” religion.  Freedom of Religion would allow a religious ceremony, freedom from religion abolishes religion from a very religious time while the country was recovering.

be the hater you are darla, it is a free country

We’re ALL familiar with the concept of your being tolerant of anyone as long as they think precisely as you do.

In my liberal secularist mind I think religious observances are essential on this solemn occasion whether I personally believe or not. I’m liberal minded, after all, I think my brethren on the left get this wrong by being so militantly anti anything religious.

I assure you my Baptist Sunday school teaching wife and have had zero problems co-existing. I fully support her right to believe as she wishes and she reciprocates.

What I won’t support is using my tax dollars to support any group desiring to deny anyone their human or constitutional rights, excluding Muslims from building their houses of worship where they wish, or in general attempting to have the government enforce one’s particular fervent belief system.

This country has a higher percentage of the population claiming some religious beliefs than any other western democracy, keeping “church and state” separate and “defending to the death” anyone’s right to believe as they wish should unite us all, not divide us.
         

darla thinks frreedom of and freedom from are the samething….ask her

Do you mean differences like skin color instead of ideology; moral equivalency between terrorists and their victims; railing against the likes of Rush Limbaugh for his “violent” speech, while deafening SILENCE condones the smear & threat campign by elected race-baiters and union thugs?

“have you been to folsom street fair?”

Fortunately no.  I hear “pictures are worth a thousand words,” unfortunately, I don’t know 1,000 ways to say disgusting, vile and the like http://zombietime.com/folsom_sf_2007_part_1/

God will get over it.  Or not-God will.

They “don’t care” until it conflicts with their paralyzed world-views, and they must somehow comport reality with an ideology that won’t recognize it!

heh-heh-heh

very good go—–wwwjordanforworldcom
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——-**–**
———–
—-
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–love
happy go
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Religion caused 9/11.  It makes no sense to have it promoted.

Yes.  That’s why there are speech codes on campuses, Affirmative action laws, hate crime guidelines, strictures on public religious expression, and eminent domain laws, and dozens of govt strictures as to private lands.

You guys don’t care what people do with their minds and bodies…

i mean the right to practice whatever religion you wish

i mean the right to practice whatever religion you wish

Remember when the far left loons said that the mosque that might be built where the twin towers stood would be “privately funded?” Well, they f’n lied. The terrorist muslims have applied for gov’t grants. Pathetic.

On topic, Bloomberg is a terrorist defender from way back. Old news.

You’re bigotry and hatred are duly noted, cakes.

Last i checked you were cheering the whole time.

“the most over-politicized, the most bitterly-partisan piece of real estate on earth.”  uh no GERALDO, that would be Israel.  OK so Bloomie doesn’t care to include God or the resonders.  That’s fine, it only makes him look like the jerk. 

Uh, nope. An ideology based on the rantings of a 6th century pedophile caused 9/11. 

I can agree with you on that, but what about the church which was damaged by falling pieces of debris caused by planes flown by muslim terrorists, not being allowed to be rebuilt?  That is the main thing which makes my blood hot.  Not so much that muslims want to build a mosque- although it is part of their religion to build mosques on ground they deemed conquered for Islam, but that the church is not getting the same treatment from the city that the muslims are getting.

GW had an immam at the first memorial, but that hasn’t seemed to make much difference.

GW had an immam at the first memorial, but that hasn’t seemed to make much difference.

Talk about much ado about nothing.  If Mayor Bloomberg had done what O’Reilly here is suggesting, it would have made a great story for the Fox pundits about political correctness taken to ridiculous extremes.  What a hypocrite.  Sure that’s what he would have done.

Yes, and you are so very open minded about Christians.

So, what you are saying really is that you and your liberal friends don’t care about others, but Christian Conservatives care about you.  Hmmm.  interesting.

you sound like a horse’s ASS!!!

Ok. Snowsoul.  Let’s figure this out.  I put the term “Oreo” in quotes.  Perhaps you think irony is easy, but it is harder on the internet and perhaps you need to learn.

The last part of your statement is still horseshit.

You still didn’t give me an etymology of ‘tolerance”.  Perhaps you would have a better argument the next time someone asks you to be tolerant.

You are disgusting for saying that.

I think that many of you need to actually study etymology, because it seems that few people, regardless of political affiliation know the meaning.

You, and I do mean you, Norbit, are lacking in any sort of perspective.  You can look that up too, before you start sputtering with your rather bland BS slogasneering.

I guess you haven’t seen Herman Cain’s campaign ad, then?
http://www.mediaite.com/online/internet-repulsed-by-herman-cains-911-singalong-video-featuring-twin-towers-attack/
About at tacky and exploitive as they come.

 The rantings of that pedophile were based on Judeo-Christian values.

 Sorry, but a fact is a fact.  Religion brought down the towers.

Your bigotry has been noted.

 I have no problem with religious views being expressed, but then anti-religious views should also be expressed.  We should be able to remind people that the terrorists who brought down the towers were inspired by God and our president was told by God to invade the wrong country.

Back then, anytime you disagreed with Bill you were called a terrorist. 

Islam did. The same Islam that Obama said was a “big part of his family.”

I would defy you to actually define “moral equivalency” (let alone the actual philosophical argument) in a proper manner that has any substance.

I thought that Wikipedia, despite its defaults would have cleared up some of this muck, but sadly, no.

Oh.  I know.  You were thinking of a “false equivalence”, which is actually much more useful.  

If being a bigot is being against known terrorists applying for gov’t grants to build a terrorist cell camp at Ground Zero, then, call me a bigot. A proud bigot.

Fox News executive:  ”Bill, you haven’t said anything insanely stupid or ignorant in the last couple of months.  We need you to get your name back in the news and show everyone why Fox News is the bottom-feeder of fake news. Ever since we fired Beck (but pretended we didn’t) our bigotry and bias isn’t quite as apparent.  So, have a few drinks before you head onto the set tonight and just let loose with some ridiculous bullshit so we can get your name in the news again”.

Bill-O: “You’re right Mr. Executive.  Hand me that bottle of scotch.  Praise be to God”.

No, muzzies did. These ones.

Qur’an 9:111 promises paradise to those who “slay and are slain”
fighting in Allah’s cause. The promises of a frat party on steroids for
the slain jihadists are rooted in part in Qur’an 52:20 and 78:31-34, and 56:35-37.

Hamas-linked CAIR’s Brave Ahmed Rehab says Americans need to “move on” from 9/11

 Hitler was proud of his bigotry as well.  Congratulations, you’re just like Hitler.

So Islam isn’t a religion?  Nice logic.

No.  Don’t check out Derrida.  You are repeating the mistake that he made with ripping off Heidegger and making it sound good.
Rather derivative on every level and his friend Levinas was much more insightful.

You were an English Lit. major weren’t you?  Derrida was to philosophy what DaDa was to art.

 Are Christians open minded about aliens, mole people, ghosts, vampires, and global warming?  Why should anyone be open minded to Christianity?

Bob is obviously a left-wing plant designed to make the right look idiotic.

bothbarrels, why are you a poosey?

9/11 to Bush was what being the first black president was to Obama.  It gave those 2 the political capital to do anything they wanted no matter how stupid it was.

“A proud bigot.”

You ought to consider renaming yourself that since it fits so well.

 So you’re saying Obama is to blame for 9/11?  Wow, this I gotta hear.

NEW YORK, Sept. 6, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — The human rights
organization American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI) will be hosting
its second annual 9/11 Freedom Rally on September 11 at 3pm at Park
Place and West Broadway.

While clergy, 9/11 first responders, and 9/11 family members are
barred and/or not invited to the official ceremonies, all are welcome at
the 9/11 Freedom Rally. And while White House guidelines forbid
official 9/11 ceremonies from mentioning who attacked the U.S. on that
day or why, the 9/11 Freedom Rally features more honest speakers.

Free citizens are coming from all over the U.S. to attend the rally.
“Honor our war dead and stand for freedom and against the deception and
lies being used to subdue us,” said AFDI Executive Director Pamela
Geller. “We must show the jihadists we are unbowed in the defense of
freedom.”

People like you were telling that to the blacks soon after they were “freed” from slavery.

On topic, I bet you’ve never been anywhere near the area.  I can ask the strippers at the club half a block from the proposed site of an abandoned Burlington Coat Factory if you’d like.

Uh, he’s not black. Also, Bj was the first black potus.

I love your autofill program.  Care to share with the rest of us who actually think about putting words together into entire sentences and then stringing them together into some sort of cogent argument?

I also recommend you check out the evilbible.com website if you like to read hate references in holy books..

So, your general point was…?  And no, no it’s not what you described it as.  All y’all still attack political opponents with all the vitriol possible.  The worst part is once someone on the right does the same you’re immediately the victim of some “hateful conservative.”  No, maybe manipulating the facts to say tea partiers did something then use it for political opportunism as with the Tucson shooting is the worst part.

Also, you didn’t ask for the etymology of tolerance, you said you could cite it.  Congratulations, I don’t really care.  In your all your vast knowledge and infinite wisdom of the origin of words, perhaps you overlooked the fact that words change over time and take on new meaning(I guess your point was that it was improperly used?  I don’t know, that last part of your previous post seemed void on any point at all.).  

Sez the enemy within and the real bigot. Blue steel.

You probably don’t want to play the religious scripture card.  Plenty of history for any religion to just say, “Oh we’re sorry.”

So how is it different when Catholics pillaged Constantinople on their way to the “infidels”?  How is it different from the “St. Bartholomew’s Massacre” in France?  Don’t get me started about the whole “Thirty Years War” (that would be a lot of reading, and you don’t strike me as the reading type).

You are the sort of person who can’t see the forest for the trees, because you don’t understand either.

has nothing to do with the gov’t grants the terrorists are begging for…

has nothing to do with the gov’t grants the terrorists are begging for…

Please explain why this particular moment in American history was “a very religious time”.

It is like people saying that “Ground Zero” is “hallowed ground”.  I’m sorry, but the last time I heard that term was when “God” told Moses to take off his sandals.

On a hunch perhaps Darla is familiar with Isaiah Berlin’s lecture (I don’t know Darla from Adam, though I think that reference is beyond your ken) “Two Concepts of Liberty” or perhaps even further in the genealogy of the concept.

I doubt you are familiar with either Berlin or the genealogy.

Buyers remorse? Hoodwinked?

It’s always baffling to me to see liberals, like yourself, defending muslim terrorists while bashing Christianity.

I appreciate that you are at least trying for some sort of balance of perspective here.  A balanced view might be the best we can hope for with such diametrically opposed ideas.  At any rate, whoever is allowed at the ceremonies someone is going to take issue with it.  There is no possible way to please everyone. It’s a metaphorical powder keg.

You calling CAIR P’sOS?

You calling CAIR P’sOS?

Has nothing to do with the fact that you are still full of it.  It’s public property and the grants are available for people who apply.

I wouldn’t ask you to write a grant for a lemonade stand.

Has nothing to do with the fact that you are still full of it.  It’s public property and the grants are available for people who apply.

I wouldn’t ask you to write a grant for a lemonade stand.

I am not a true believer-at least in organized religion.  Faith gives many the only hope they’ll ever know and perhaps, a modicum of comfort.  So, with all it’s flaws it has a place.  We assume ourselves a tolerant people.  In this instance, demonstrating that would show us in our best light.

Investigation expands into WH-backed ‘green’ company…
Homes of company execs raided…
REPORT: Obama sat in on meetings…

I actually only fit into whatever pigeon hole you aren’t filling on an actual pigeon.

I have seen this quoting of scripture by a lot of people who have become known as the “New Atheists”.  They are usually bright people in their field of study, but they never consider context.

You have neither context or text.  You are just stupid.

I actually only fit into whatever pigeon hole you aren’t filling on an actual pigeon.

I have seen this quoting of scripture by a lot of people who have become known as the “New Atheists”.  They are usually bright people in their field of study, but they never consider context.

You have neither context or text.  You are just stupid.

You’re playing the “out of context” card and the “personal attack” card? LOL!

Torture isn’t exactly part of the so called “freedoms” you enjoy

If they allow a forum for religion they should also allow a forum for 911truth.org

http://911truth.org/ 

You’re right, faith does give people hope.  It gives a lot of people hope that they could collectively hijack planes and crash them into the tallest skyscrapers in the biggest city in all of America.

Rick Parry hates cancer.

Why does anything secular bothers you? I am black and a lot (if not the majority) of African Americans are social conservative.. you know… the usual…Love Jebus, hate gays,  abortion bad and stuff…But they still vote democrat. Comparing American progressives to Marxist is just ridiculous.

Why does anything secular bothers you? I am black and a lot (if not the majority) of African Americans are social conservative.. you know… the usual…Love Jebus, hate gays,  abortion bad and stuff…But they still vote democrat. Comparing American progressives to Marxist is just ridiculous.

 I agree.  If they open up a forum, I think they should open up a wider tent.  There are a lot of people who feel passionate about 9/11 in their own way and those voices should be heard as well.  What makes the religious people so special?  I think that’s where my objection is coming from.

Good luck.  Maybe if you didn’t hate Christmas so much you’d buy him a phrase-a-day calender and then he would learn the meaning of “cogent argument”.  Since you hate Christmas it will sadly never happen.

Sorry Snow.  You just have hurt feelings and are looking at someone to lash out at during any given opportunity.

You like to bitch about labels and then use them rather quickly.  You are the type who bitches about bias in media, without thinking for one second that TV news has long said, “If it bleeds, it leads/ledes.”

I feel sorry for people like you.  I’d explain why you are being Manichean in your world view, but then I would have to explain what Manichean means.  Just like you should learn that language does have a purpose, aside from BS snark that you want to post.

Bill O’Reilly left out Buddhism, Bahai, Sikhism, New Thought, Mormon, Scientologists, Christian Scientists, Native Americans, and the Church of Satan.

What “Ground Zero” mosque might this be, then? Surely you cannot be referring to the 51 Park Islamic Center!

A mosque is a specific structure with specific features, unique to a place of Islamic worship.

Features such as facilities to wash the hands and feet, as prescribed in
the Quaran, as well as a minaret for the Muezzin to call the faithful
to prayer.

51 Park will have a “prayer space” set aside for the faithful to fulfill their obligations for the times of daily prayer during the work day.

Just like the “prayer spaces” in the WTC 1&2.

You wouldn’t call WTC 1&2 “mosques”, would you, based upon the presence of “prayer spaces”?

Anyone repeating the lie of the “Ground Zero mosque” is either deliberately lying or is a credulous fool, spreading the lie and thinking it the truth.

And to forestall the inevitable onslaught of the flag waving booboisie calling me a Muslim or Muslim apologist, I am a hardcore, stone cold Atheist. I believe in NO god whatsoever, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, Scientologist, etc, etc, etc.

I find ALL theologies both risible and absurd.

To put things into perspective, about 3000 people were killed in the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

Over 10,000 children have accused priests of child sex abuse at the hands of Catholic priests in the United States alone, in an act called “soul murder”, since the child never fully recovers, and they never have the same faith in God. The number is likely 3-5 times that number, since people like Archbishop Dolan immediately try to fight and discredit the victims. Just last month, he discredited the victim when a 16 year old girl came forward to accuse a priest of inappropriate contact.

The Catholic League and their $399,000 a year front man immediately trashed her, even though the priest himself admitted to massaging her (and why, in God’s name, is a priest massaging a girl) and blamed her for wearing very short skirts. Dolan republishes the Catholic League bashing on his blog.

Two of the biggest, loudest mouths in the Catholic church immediately discredit a poor, little 16 year old girl from the Bronx when she comes forward with the umpti-thousandth case of priest predator attacking child.

Think that will stop other victims from coming forward? You bet. Great legal strategy. Horrible church.

Catholic priests, stay away from ground zero on 9/11. We’re trying to forget one enemy. We don’t need to be reminded of another.

What are you babbling about?

The primary Founding Fathers of America – Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and Benjamin Franklin – would all be applauding this decision by Mayor Bloomberg.

O’Reilly, like his historically challenged friends Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, et al, are clueless when it comes to the Founding Fathers, and their intentions. The Founders’ “intentions” were carefully, and clearly, written into the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution, yet they go right over the heads of the religious extremists in America.

Bloomberg is only doing this for his own personal monitary gain. His interests in the muslim world will suffer if he excludes muslim religion from the mix.

Just like Obama, Bloomberg is an un-American coward that hates this country, but loves, loves, loves our money.

Geraldo, of late, has become a Puerto Rican ( millionaire ) minority activist, not a ” real ” American whose credibility is non existent.

He doesn’t see things in black & white anymore, just black & brown and that’s not right……in fact it’s far left.

Just like Obama, Bloomberg is an un-American coward that hates this country, but loves, loves, loves our money.

In truth, Obama and Bloomberg are American patriots who, unlike you, understand the intentions behind the authors of the Constitution.

I feel sorry for you. You must have a pathetic life to be that filled with racism and anger.

It’s funny that Bill-O wants to include muslims imam in the religious lineup.

If the mayor did that, Fox news would be giving him hell LOL.

It’s funny that Bill-O wants to include muslims imam in the religious lineup.

If the mayor did that, Fox news would be giving him hell LOL.

This was good tv because, as usual, FOX gets deep into people’s feelings about 911. It is not that important who is right or wrong, but the discussion is excellent.

I could not agree more. orieally represents all of the reasons religion is divisive, HYOCRACY IS #ONE. Of all of the creepy people screeming about religion ,this guy is #one. Imagine 2 million people a day watch this mindless moron!!!SICK!

That would be wrong, although I’d need to read up on it to see if there’s any equivalence with a former carpet store site two blocks away. I would also like to see us discontinue the “Muslim terrorist” label, however, since they were actually middle eastern terrorists who claimed to be representing Islam.

By the same token, I wouldn’t refer to Timothy McVeigh or David Koresh as “Christian terrorists”, but terribly troubled individuals who claimed to be Christian.

I suspect if middle eastern armies were occupying America and killing my neighbors, and I had the opportunity, they wouldn’t refer to me as an atheist terrorist when I took my vengeance.

I remember watching Bill O’Reilly and FOX during the 911 ordeal as my primary news station. And he did a fantastic job. That was before our political landscape became so confrontational. Bill turned 62 today, and he still does a great job. Happy birthday, Bill. :-)

I appreciate your feelings BMG. I’m not a Bloomberg fan too much either. Though, I think he has done a pretty good job with all this 911 stuff. As for Geraldo, well, he is “Geraldo”.

It’s when the tenets of Secularism are being imposed upon us, in the name of church-state separation, that I find insultingly hypocritical.

As it relates to any static belief systems, secularism is as much a religion as any other, sans a deity figure. 

Bloomberg understands the intentions of the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution that they authored for America. O’Reilly does not. He gets an “F” from America’s historians. Let’s hope that somebody got him a copy of the Constitution for his birthday.

Bill expreses not just his own feelings, but the feelings of millions of others. Nobody said that he was somehow perfect. But he speaks his mind, and he typically brings on others to discuss the other side. That exercise is better than being right or wrong. IMHO.

I would actually agree with you that, of all the Consevative propagandists that are determined to revise America’s Founding Father history, O’Reilly is the most open to debating the opposition argument, on the air. He’s still wrong about the Constitution, and the Founders, though. Whether that’s by design, or from ignorance, it’s tough to say.

“Conservative propagandists” – and that would be as opposed to a “mainstream” media that selects and edits news stories in an effort to manipulate public opinion?

You can see the duplicity nearly every day.

For instance, how many stories have you seen on the recent Longshoremen’s violence? Did any of those stories link the violence to Hoffa’s speech?

Now ask yourself, in all honesty, how that “mainstream” media coverage and tone would be had it been Tea Party violence?

“If I’m Bloomberg, I take a Catholic priest, a Jewish rabbi, a Muslim imam, a couple of Protestant ministers, and I put them up there…”
===================

Hey Bill,
Throw a punchline on this, and it has the makings of a hilarious joke.

Geraldo also pointed out that Archbishop Timothy Dolan and various
Jewish groups around New York did not have a problem with Bloomberg’s
plan, to which O’Reilly responded, “Doesn’t matter.”

Yeah, who cares if the religious leaders that Bill thinks should be invited don’t mind. He minds. We’re perfectly capable of having a meaningful ceremony without organized religion involved.

Yep, but it would not be politically correct, I am afraid.

He has his own opinion, which is cool.

Hey COSMO.  Long time no see.  

I play a little game I call: “Open the dictionary and see what pops out?” LOLI bet you do the same thing, its always interesting to see what word or words are on the page when one first starts to search for a particular word?Today’s word, or, phrase that “popped out,” is “mons pubis.”  LOL  No kidding, was actually at the top of the page in bold print, thus informing the reader, the definition was the last one at the bottom right of the page. (“New Oxford American.”)  LOLAs for your post, typical, typical ,typical… Ouch!  You don’t seem to care if there are religious leaders in attendance, but, you are in the minority.  Furthermore, being a Socialist with an appropriate dose of conceit, you don’t care what others think or want.Your philosophy is: “Be reasonable, do it my way?”  (Oh yes, one more thing, “power comes from the barrel of a gun,” doesn’t it?  At least when when you and your buddies are tired of negotiation)

Purveyor

A Supreme Court Case from 1968, Lemmon v. Kurzman, established the “Lemmon test,” seriously.

1.) The Legislation or policy must have a secular purpose.

2.) Must have a primary effect that neither “advances or inhibits religion.”

3.) Must have a result that avoids “excessive Government entanglements,” with religion.

YOU MAKE THE CALL? 

 I know what I think, we do get a bit over zealous at times, don’t we?

Purveyor

Bloomberg should let the victims’ families decide whether or not clergy should be invited.

Norbit,

 When was the last time YOU “tried being a black conservative?”   ROTFLMBAO!!!

–Cobra

 I have to agree with Bloomberg and Geraldo.  No matter how you play this, you’re leaving yourself open to criticism.  2 Mormons are running for president.  Why shouldn’t they be represented?  Quakers started the movement to abolish slavery.  They should also be represented.  Native Americans were victims of the greatest genocide in American history (Trail of Tears).  They should be represented.  There are more non-religious people than there are Jewish people in America.  Why can’t WE be represented?  Don’t forget the Church of Satan.  Without Satan we wouldn’t have 9/11 so we probably owe them some sort of tribute.  Let’s just keep things somber and remember the heroes and victims.  That’s it. 

No he should not.  Bloomberg is the mayor so his word has more say than theirs.  Bloomberg doesn’t want to deal with discrimination lawsuits and other things that could cause problems for the memorial.  As it is, Ground Zero is the most controversial place in America next to New Mexico.

Bloomberg should politicize this and say that only religions that support same sex marriage could be represented at the 9/11 Memorial. How is that for a compromise?

Of Course he means da only religion in da world… “Christianity”… & da only form of “Christianity”/”Born Again/Catholic/mixed up bag o’crap/whatever he f’n believes in Christianity”! All others are filled with pure hate, vulgar, lies, start wars, false profits, are filled with terrorists…& need not apply! Good’ol Bill. A propagandist wet dream.

Your quite da hater… I think you should join up & do some kill’n.

You’re disgusting.

How could you possibly know what he means? His words are quoted correctly.

Bloomberg is out of his freaking mind. Not only won’t he allow any members of the clergy at the memorial, but no police or firefighters? Where’s the sense in that? What is up with this idiot?

Yup.  Duhh.  Let us pray….

Stupid and ignorant.

Discrimination lawsuits? Give me a break. Those poor, poor offended people need to calm down.

Discrimination lawsuits? Give me a break. Those poor, poor offended people need to calm down.

Do you know what the word “establish” means?

The intentions of the author’s were that Government should not “establish” a religion. Any idiot who thinks that a few clergy attending a memorial service is “establishing” religion needs to have their head examined.

So you blame all Catholics for the actions of a few? And what the hell does this have to do with 911?

Bullshit!!!!

More bullshit.

It was not religion but the distortion of religion by a few radical Muslim terrorists.

Religion (in general) did NOT “bring down the towers” – nor is it “responsible” for Terrorism.

The RADICAL Practicers of (predominently) ONE Religion did so.

While there HAS been Tim McVeigh (for example) who is NOT a Muslim, who DID commit an act of “Domestic Terrorism” – he was NOT doing so “in the Name of Christianity”, nor was he chanting “God is Great” when he blew up the Oklahoma Federal Building.

The Radical Muslims who committed those acts of Terrorism on 9/11 DID do so in the name of Islam (albeit “THEIR” vision of Islam).  They DID chant, “Allahu Akbar” while doing so.

One more thing…  When you have “Radical” Mormons, for example – who STILL insist on marrying multiple CHILDREN, the Main Stream Mormon religion (THE LDS Church) CONDEMNS their actions in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS.

WHERE are the “moderate” Muslims DENOUNCING the acts of the 9/11 Muslim Terrorists?

Frankly, I’m FINE with EVERY RELIGION of EVERY VICTIM of 9/11 being represented at the Ground Zero memorial – with the EXCEPTION of the Religion of the Terrorists themselves.  Heck, we can even leave an empty spot for the Athiests (who believe in NOTHING).

EVEN WORSE (in my opinion) than the lack of Religious representation at the 9/11 memorial, is the fact that they “can’t find room” for the First Responders THEMSELVES!  Heaven forbid that every politician who want to be associated with the event be denied their spot in front of the camera – but to tell the brave men and women who actually put their LIVES on the line on 9/11 that there’s NO ROOM for THEM?  Give me a F’ING BREAK!

So do the Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

You Liberal Lefties just don’t get it….Poor you.

Social commentator and former alter-boy George Carlin sums it up, “Think
about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man
living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And
the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and
smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and
suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of
time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs
money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just
can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes,
and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull*** story.
Holy S***!”

“Conservative propagandists” – and that would be as opposed to a “mainstream” media that selects and edits news stories in an effort to manipulate public opinion? – Norbit

Yes, absolutely, excluding the part that I’ve crossed out because it’s such a broad generalization that I don’t believe that you can possibly prove it with any observable data.

Do media outlets let their commentators’ political ideology permeate their broadcasting? Yes they do. The FAUX News-Premier Radio-WSJ media stable leans just as Conservative, as the “mainstream” media, leans Liberal.

There is an easy and understandable explanation for this phenomenon. Modern, liberal ideology is rooted in the truth. Modern conservative ideology, on the other hand, is rooted in fiction. The FAUX News-Premier Radio-WSJ juggernaut has chosen to defend this consrvative ideology that is distortion based. The non FAUX-Premier Radio-WSJ media, which includes practically everyone else – ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, TBS, TNT, CNN, USA, A&E, NOVA, Discovery, HBO, ESPN, COMEDY CENTRAL, Nickelodian, NYT, USA Today, LA Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, etc., etc., etc. – have chosen to lean toward the Liberal ideology, that is rooted in truth, and they seem to understand that 1) scientists are, predominantly, very intelligent and honest people, that 2) the Founding Fathers’ concept of keeping Church from intermingling with State should be maintained, and, that 3) big business, big industry, big manufacturing, big agriculture, and big medicine, etc., all need to be regulated, for safety, by the government. That’s just a partial list, but you get the point.

Here’s the unavoidable truth. The FAUX News-Premier Radio-WSJ juggernaut is very powerful and impressive at what it does. But, despite their own spin to the contrary, it is dwarfed by the American media, and the majority of patriotic American people, that think that they are unfair, unbalanced, and pushing a “Christian Nation” agenda.

We don/t need religious fanatics at the 911 memorial.

Do you really want to get into a discussion about the Liberal interpretation of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution vs the Conservative interpretation of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?

Because, quite frankly, I would love to. It is, absolutely, my favorite subject to debate. Be prepared, though, I will be using the words of GOP spokesman, Rush Limbaugh, to prove my case. 

Thanks for the ongoing joke that is your consistently wrong analysis. And I’m the one with a dose of conceit? That’s pretty amusing too.

My point here was that ORielly didn’t seem to care how the religious leaders of NYC felt, it was his opinion that mattered. I also find it laughable that ORielly, who spoke out strongly against the proposed Islamic Community Center near Ground Zero, now wants a Muslim Imam to speak at a commemorative ceremony?  Ya think some people might object to that? At least Faux News would have another controversy to exploit.

You are correct , I don’t care if religious leaders participate {not are in attendance} I don’t care if they do, and I don’t care if they don’t. Can we determine the various religions or lack of belief that those who died on that fateful day held, and have them all represented. ORielly’s just spouting talking point nonsense to fill a few minutes.
IMO, if we really want to promote unity we might want to work toward using language that everyone can identify with. Principles like truth, love, justice, equality, courage, sacrifice, honor etc. have universally understood meaning and might serve to cut down on a degree of nationalism and religious division that serves to separate us as common inhabitants of one planet.

“Principles like truth, love, justice, equality, courage, sacrifice, honor etc.”  I know you added an “etc.,” but, what about “trust?”

When it comes to international relations the only people I will ever, even vaguely trust are my fellow Americans, and a significant plurality of my fellow Americans, are beginning to wear thin on me!

In Orelly’s frame of reference, he is being consistent.  He knows that “de jure,” stopping the building of the Mosque will be tough.  Oreilly just wants the Muslims the recognize the insensitivity the action.  But, for Oreilly, would let the Imam have say on 9/11 and see how well received it is?  ”Let truth and falsehood grapple,” so to speak.

As for me, I can’t stand that vile culture and would do everything I could to keep them out, and get those that are are here, sent back. Muslim’s are completely incompatible with our culture.  And it is NOT because of us!

Purveyor

I believe in seperaation of church and state.  OTOH if NYC mayor Bloomburg would invite religious leaders he should be inviting clergy people of the major faiths represented in the US.

It wasn’t Bloomberg who made the decision to not invite clergy, it was the families who decided.

The families did decide and they said No.

The families did decide and they said No.

The people from the Westboro Baptist Church want to know if they can then participate seeing how everyone else is, and can they bring all their signs?

And the Westboro Baptist Church.

This is an honest expression of how the left views Republicans and conservatives. They hate you and think you capable of all manner of evil.

Etymology. That’s twice. Someone’s been to college.

You should check out Derrida’s defense of his friend Paul deMan. Anything goes.

oh and I suppose Republicans contrast that by viewing the left as their dear brothers? Remind of that the next time liberals are called muslims, communists, fascists and everything else.

No, religion is faith based, i.e. belief in something in the absence of evidence, or in the face of evidence which defies the belief.  Secularism is evidence based, not faith based.

People do get upset with treasonous comments. 

Again, secularism is not a religion.  Religion is faith based.  Secularism is evidence based.  This is where science detractors err when they say that science is just a religion.  Science is empirical, not faith based.

I’m appalled to read so many uneducated comments.  After 9/11 the churches were full.  The attedance
has dropped off.  We are a Christian nation, but many do not know what Christians are SUPPOSED to do.
Love the enemy, give more than receive, do not kill (no abortions, please, that’s murder), follow the ten commandments given to us by the Jews, from whence we came Judeo-Christians.  There’s not way I can tolerate the Muslim religion is one of their precepts is to “kill the infidel,” because all the rest of us, including Christians, especially are infidels to them.  I’ve been everything…Democrat, Liberal, Independent, Republican, Perotite, Tea Party, military brat, Catholic, Methodist, Episcopal, Prebysterian, have visited the Jewish Temple, the Buddha gathering, New Age…just boils down to one thing, if done right…God is Love…not hate…
Jesus came to show us the way of truth and how to live life.  It is difficult, well, life is difficult.  But, it
sure is better to be good than not in the end.  Remember that, as I’m almost at the end, and those I know who sold out for riches and power are not that happy.    

The primary Founding Fathers of the “United States of America” – Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and Benjamin Franklin – would all be applauding this decision by Mayor Bloomberg.

O’Reilly, like his historically challenged friends Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, et al, are clueless when it comes to the Founding Fathers, and their intentions. The Founders’ “intentions” were carefully, and clearly, written into the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution, yet they go right over the heads of the religious extremists in America.

- Treason_Detector

I hate to repeat myself, but it would seem that the “Christian Nation” mythologists, of America, are avoiding this basic, historical truth. Imagine that!

Rarely agree with O’Reilly but I think he got it right this time.

The principles I mentioned are things an individual can cultivate within themselves and learn to value and strive for in their lives. While individuals can be more trusting or less trusting, it’s often something that has to be earned by another through their actions. I don’t agree ORielly’s being consistent or that there was anything insensitive about the community center but I’m not interested in a discussion.

Yeah, that vile culture is so incompatible that a Muslim 1st responder died on 9/11 , not to mention Muslim’s serving and dying in the military. Culture’s clash, they always have, but generations pass and traditions change. Muslim’s trying to maintain long held traditions in a vastly different culture will either adapt or fade in coming generations.
A friend of mine sent me a prayer for America that seemed appropriate. Given by Bahai founder
“, ‘Abdul-Baha, who was born in Persian (now Iran) and spent most of
his life as a prisoner being held in what was at the time called
Palestine (now Israel). He may look like what many Americans consider
the “enemy” but he had nothing but sincere and heartfelt love not only
for America, but for all of humanity.PRAYER FOR AMERICA
O
Thou kind Lord! This gathering is turning to Thee. These hearts are
radiant with Thy love. These minds and spirits are exhilarated by the
message of Thy glad-tidings. O God! Let this American democracy become
glorious in spiritual degrees even as it has aspired to material
degrees, and render this just government victorious. Confirm this
revered nation to upraise the standard of the oneness of humanity, to
promulgate the Most Great Peace, to become thereby most glorious and
praiseworthy among all the nations of the world. O God! This American
nation is worthy of Thy favors and is deserving of Thy mercy. Make it
precious and near to Thee through Thy bounty and bestowal.”

IMO, one of the great things about America and more modern cultures is the the breaking down of the barriers of language and culture toward a greater realization of the religious ideals of unity.

yeah we were so happy we were dancing in the streets firing our guns in the air..

yet some still dont get it. it is not a political thing  and anyone who thinks so doesnt think!

Mayor Bloomberg  had political event planned and didn’t want religion, firemen or families to muck it up.

Good God you people are stupid.  All this hoopla over the Bible Belt having low IQ’s, funny… you guys take the cake and the plate for morons of the week mind.

With all the crap just spewed he doesn’t have to make the Left look idiotic, you Reactionaries are doing that all on your own.

Religion is not destroying this planet on the contrary the Christian Religion that you gaffe about so much made this Country what it is, Universities (Started mainly by the Church) the charities, (Mainly by the Church)  Why don’t you radical Atheist upper crust twits lay off religion and its icons.  They are just as much a part of the history and foundation of this country as much as the freedom you have to disagree.
You wanna know who is destroying this Country? 
Morons like yourselves that wage war in the courts proselytizing your own damn religion of Atheism and Socialist Mindset.
If people want a cross a magen or say a prayer at the 911 Memorial than they should be allowed to have it or do it, in public!
A few of you haters should not put a kibosh on everyone else.  But what do you do?  You run to the courts and bring up one letter not even in the constitution (Separation of  Church and State).  It was one bloody letter, and actually it was meant to have the STATE NOT GETTING INVOLVED WITH DICTATING TO THE CHURCH.

So I say this to all you really dim witted and loud mouthed fools.
You have your right to protest, but if the majority of the people want it, than you ‘being radical atheists’ shouldn’t be offended we tell the rest of you ‘to go to hell’.  

Just read all the crap you have said about religious people, than go jump off a short pier.
Tolerance my (_I_)

For some Liberals I agree, but none of the ones that are leaving any type of feedback on this board for the most part.

For the most part, Conservatives are concerned with the truth and the consequences.

Reactionary Liberals like yourselves, don’t believe in absolute truths, don’t care about the consequences, and usually try and bend rules or a history to fit your whims or desires. It’s the whole ‘Me’ attitude and its core it’s selfish and it stinks.

Since you don’t care about the consequences than ‘yes’ there is a need for others to be concerned so we don’t repeat foolish decisions that effect others and society as a whole.

Listen to you Evolution Revolution…
Who is being intolerant in their statement?  You are.
You on the Left have to learn that just as much as you have the right to disagree with someone, someone else has the right to disagree with you!
No one in the government should force you to do anything, in your religion, or your lifestyle.
However here is the key, although you may have the right to do something it doesn’t make it right.

And where do you seriously get off saying Christian’s discriminate against Jews??? A vast majority Christians love the Jewish people and are one of Israel’s greatest supporters.
If your views of the church are severally skewed in that much ignorance, than your arguments are pretty much not too believable.

Also before you start spewing off about Muslims maybe you should pick up a Qua-ran and read it in its entirety… I got news for you ,in it both Jews and Christians are not looked at as people to get along with… In fact any non-Muslim is looked at as an infidel (Better off dead).  In the first couple chapters of Sura’s it’s all well and good, but when the other religions reject Islam, than the gloves are off and Mohammad goes on quite the little rampage about infidels…

Are you open minded about ghost’s, vampires, aliens, the tooth fairy and Al Gore?

okay so
“disrespect to gay lifestyle in America” = respect of gay lifestyle

where did you learn to reason?

Wow… okay how about the churches were full to overflowing the next day…

In times of trouble, when all hope is lost, people turn to God.
Lieutenant-Colonel William J. Clear was believed to have quoted.
“There are no atheists in fox holes”

A more light quote would be,
“As long as their our exams, there will be prayer in schools”

Also if you did some study of the Bible the term hallowed is another word in the Torah for Holy.
A more precise word for 911 memorial would be sacred.

Okay instead of water-boarding these Islamowackos we will close Gitmo, and board them at your house.
Enjoy your new guests, they want you and your family dead.

You are the poster child of why this administration needs to go.
Thanks for your honesty.,

Wow…. and how long ago was that???

And how many eons have Muslim’s tortured, killed and terrorized Jews and every other non Muslim? 

Christianity, in it’s core is not geared towards Submit (That is what the word Islam means).  The core of the Christian Belief is Commit, and the two core belief structures couldn’t be further apart.
Sure you can bring up a number of cases in the medieval age (Dark Ages) when the ‘Catholic Church’ lashed out in power using the inquisition as a way to keep power and control, but that was a mistake admitted and regretted by the Vatican.  The Catholic Church is nothing like that now.

I would like the most important Imam to admit that these Wacko’s who use Mohammad’s late tactics in an even more brutal way to disavow anyone vehemently as a Muslim.  But they will not, because according to the Qua-ran if one admits Allah is god and Mohammad is his prophet, than they are a Muslim and there submission can not be rescinded.

If Islam is such a peaceful religion, it has a crappy track record lately, and it and it’s followers need to prove itself, as the christian church in most cases has gotten back to it’s root of commitment, not submission.

The word bright and Atheists can’t coexist. (Although I don’t have any problem with non radical Atheists)

You however, are a pseudo intellectual and calling someone stupid just makes you a larger fool thinking you know it all.

You need a piece of humble pie.

Remember this Re-Elect…
The one who released the slaves, was a Republican.
Look up the Democratic National Convention of 1924
Also realize the greatest civil rights leader, The Reverend Martin Luther King, was a Republican as were most African Americans up to the Kennedy Era.

Wow.
Are you really that ignorant?

Did you ever go to Sunday School class, or did you start crack that young?

Bigotry! LOL
So has your ignorance in the face of overwhelming facts, do you have the concept to understand facts?

Take another hit of your bong.

Were you there like thousands of others when the planes flew into the buildings?
No, I severely doubt it.
You and Mike Moore can go eat hotdogs and get fat on life.

None of those ‘religions and cults’ have not half as many believers as America’s main religious sect, and that is Christianity and Judaism.

We are not going by a ‘Fairness Doctrine’ here, we are a democracy where the majority rule governs, and also why the hell are we not taking into consideration the religion that has been with the Country and much to the discomfort of all your radical atheists Shaped this Country to what it is!
Crumb, if it’s not broken than don’t fix it!
Christianity has done more good for this country and I am willing to bet any organized atheist movement has ever done.
Get with the flipping program.

They are just as bad as you radical atheists.

Typical Far out Leftie, trying to rewrite history.
It was the Pilgrims… a religious Christian sect that first settled America.
Go to Williams burg sometime and get a real history lesson in what the 13 Colonies was like…

I am not saying that the FF were all religious zealots they weren’t but most of them were educated including Washington read and believed in the Bible and many professed and have a testimony as being Christians.

In fact I would put it too you this way, there were more people who are greater wiser, more accomplished leaders, than you or I for that matter who believed in God and the Bible that were crucial in the founding of this Country.

And the song ‘Imagine’ starts to play with Yoko dancing naked in the background… sound nasty? it is.
This is the facade that is the “Brotherhood of Man”.

I think in this forum the atheist’s are the ones that need to take a chill pill.
Even though you got what you want, you are still bitching.

I think in this forum the atheist’s are the ones that need to take a chill pill.
Even though you got what you want, you are still bitching.

Hark I hear the king of miscommunication he walks among us, and his alias is Glutton.

You are either really stupid, or maybe just a great flamer.

Yep it figures you put your trust in a comedian…
Not years of ancient wisdom, proven good works, and yes even the miraculous…

nope, you place your truth in a Joke.

How ironic.

???  if you had a point , it’s not clear.

Wow.  You are quite a piece of work.

I work in the media ‘Einstein’.
And anyone with half a brain can see that it is a mainly Liberal Dominated industry.
Yesterday’s Flower Children are Today’s Blooming Idiots.

I have seen first hand the stuff that goes into the editing bay and winds up devoid of any type of religious or conservative thought. 

While Fox may mainly lean right, it is absolutely more balanced journalism than ANYTHING out there.
And your wrong, Fox still holds most the highest Neilsen ratings in most DMA’s out of any News Network.

Also there is no “Christian Nation” agenda, most Christian’s are only standing up for their beliefs just as much as anyone is.
I would say there is and has been more of anti-religious (Especially Christianity) agenda since the 60′s than there has ever been a plan for Christians to take over America.

Do us all a favor and
1. Stop trying to rewrite history
2. Stop trying to proselytize your wanton whims about the majority of American Audiences.

We don’t need atheist ICEHOLES either. (yeah they censored the other word that is more accurate)

Seriously WTH
No First Responders invited either?… What? Are the people directly involved with the memorial that frikking stupid?
Nice job NYC…way to honor your hero’s.

Not even close to the Atheist Mythologists.
You guys don’t avoid the truth, crap no, your worse … You make it up!
You try and rewrite history!

Now imagine that!

The one who ever did anything a great job with 911 certainly wasn’t Bloomberg it was Rudy Giuliani.

The one who ever did anything a great job with 911 certainly wasn’t Bloomberg it was Rudy Giuliani.

Point Being:
That the idea that all people are good and can live in harmony is a farce.

All People are born in selfishness.  How we overcome our selfish nature is our quest.
Some choose religion and for the most part if it’s a peaceful religion they find peace, but still battle their nature.
Some choose spiritualism, and usually get more wrapped up in themselves and their own sojourns.
Some choose not to believe in anything but themselves, and they remain in a selfish state.

If there is no God than there is only one person that you are accountable too, you, and you make the rules and you are right, and you define what truth is.
If there is a God than you are accountable to someone higher than you, and you follow truths, or values passed down from many wiser and stronger people…

In the end we either make peace with our maker
Or make ourselves peace makers. (The Gun)
We can’t make lasting peace ourselves, we are incapable of it.  We need a spiritual bridge, a relationship greater than man to achieve any type of lasting peace.

There will always be someone who wants your freedom and for you to submit to their ideology,   That my friend, is what the word ‘Islam’ means, (Submit).

(And I am sorry I shouldn’t have mocked you, I’m sure you had heart felt intentions – I respect that)

That’s B.S.
And the only ones who are heading up the lawsuits are you idiot radical atheists.

You got your wish for the memorial, to big bleeding black holes with no religious icons, now piss off and leave the cross alone that the workers fabricated out of the rubble on 911.

That the idea that all people are good and can live in harmony is a farce.

Certainly we don’t at this point in history, but , for all our faults we seem to be headed in that direction. IMO what Jesus and Buddha and many religious icons taught is that we are all connected by a common reality like cells in the same body. Living as if that’s not true and it’s us vs them, we continue to attack our own body.  Mankind was tribal , then came nationalism, and now we’re beginning to see in a modern world that we are interdependent as nations, and that vastly different cultures can get along.
That doesn’t mean greed and the lust for power will disappear and that xenophobia won’t be used to that end.

The labels of organized religion, the individual spiritual journey, or the agnostic or atheist, don’t matter at all when it comes to gauging the character of the individual. Atheists are just as capable of deep compassion and charity as any believer. They can see the need to try and work toward a better society and leave something better for future generations.
If there is no God, there is still love and truth. There is still the nature of reality and how it works. That is inescapable and undeniable. It’s clear that people can and do define truth differently and surely that includes believers as well who can’t seem to agree. The individual journey, and by extension the journey of mankind is to go forward and sift what is the truth that sets us free, from false notions that need to be discarded and not passed on to future generations. Such as the notion that ALL Men are created equal.

If there is a God and we want his will to be done here on earth, is it not mankind who will do it? Is the compassion and charity of an atheist less than the compassion and charity of a believer?  IMO, Jesus taught that regardless of what we give lip service to,  our actions and our interaction with others is the true reflection of who we are and what we value.  Our spirit or soul to some, our character, or consciousness to others. We should be careful not to let superficial labels divide us and foster false notions. IMO, Love and truth, are the connecters that cross all religions and philosophies.
Isn’t that how most believers are taught to worship?

I work in the media ‘Einstein’. And anyone with half a brain can see that it is a mainly Liberal Dominated industry.

That is exactly the point of the comment I made, that you are replying to. You have, in essence, corroborated my argument, that intelligent people (Liberals) dominate the non FAUX-Premier Radio-WSJ media. Thanks.

The rewriting, of American history, is occuring on the Right. No contest. See Texas school book insanity.

I’m not an “Atheist”, but I would love to hear you explain what the ”Mythologies” are, that you think Atheists base their disbelief in the Judeo-Christian, mono-theistic “God” on.

 In so many ways organized religion is a bad joke!

The term Liberal and Intelligent are the greatest irony since your last statement.

To say that all Liberals are more intelligent than conservatives is the biggest Faux.
The good thing about the conservative mind set is that it teaches the value of boundaries and the understanding of not repeating the same mistakes made in history.

You as a “Liberal Pseudo-Intellectual” rather than stop doing things that could and does harm others just because “it feels good”, “you want too”, or more like “You desire what you want.”
It’s actually quite selfish by nature…

And addressing your ignorance on the intellect of people, more people watch Fox, because they aren’t stupid enough to be spoon fed now by just one Biased source of thinking…
You obviously are not into thinking for yourself but believe what the Liberal Media tells you (And that’s fine), but you obviously are oblivious in understanding how others think…

So, like a typical reactionary liberal, keep believing what they tell you, but don’t expect the rest of us to care.  We’ll make our own decisions.
 

Man-alive, all you need to do is browse this blog, and see most ‘atheists’ don’t know their ass from their elbow when it comes to the Bible and the history of Christianity for one thing.
So what are you, if you aren’t an atheist?

You are wrong. Most Americans watch something other than FAUX News… by a large percentage.

Man-alive, all you need to do is browse this blog, and see most ‘atheists’ don’t know their ass from their elbow when it comes to the Bible and the history of Christianity for one thing.

I think maybe you should go read this..

Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religioushttp://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious 

So what are you, if you aren’t an atheist?

I’m a “Deist”, like our brilliant Founding Fathers. That would, of course, be minus their belief in “Providence”, that was sidelined by Charles Darwin, and the advance of Science.

Treason_Detector,
Of the 55 Delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Congress 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholic.
A review of those that signed the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, or delegates to the Constitutional Convention provides a total of three Deists. Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, and Thomas Jefferson. The is not even Jefferson thought of himself as a Deist, saying ” as far as I know I am a sect unto myself” because he held views of Unitarians, Deists, and Anglican. So are you saying the other 118 individuals were not a brilliant as those three?

Treason_Detector,Of the 55 Delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Congress 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholic.

Your reply appears to be an argument cobbled together from from the section titled “Religion” in the Wiki article titled “Founding Fathers of the United States”, and the “Religious Affiliation of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America” article at Adherents•com, a “Christian Nation” advocacy group.

Direct link to that “section”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States#Religion

Here’s that section in its entirety. I’ve bolded the portion that you plagiarized…

Religion
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholics (C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called “Jefferson Bible”) and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.

If you’re going to cut and paste from Wikipedia you should cite it accordingly. Isn’t it interesting that you chose not to include that context explanatory, second paragraph…

A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called “Jefferson Bible”) and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists. – Wikipedia

More on this in a minute, but first, Todd, did you notice where the Wiki author, of that segment that speaks to the Founders’ “religious affiliation”, cited Frank Lambert’s, 2003 book, titled “The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America.” YOu should have researched it a little closer. You would have learned that those are are loosely assigned and proven affilliations. If they signed the guest book of a certain Church denomination, even once, they were considered “affilated”. Lambert was being very generous in his affillation methodolgy. Here, read the Introduction from the book, that Wiki, and now you, have cited as a source to back your “Christian Nation” assertion.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4CHIomb78VgC&lpg=PP1&dq=the%20founding%20fathers%20and%20the%20place%20of%20religion%20in%20america&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
After searching the book for “religious affiliation” at both Google Books, and Amazon, I can find no instance where Lambert makes any aggregate, numerical assertions about the religious affilations of the Founders. The Wiki claim that “Of the 55 Delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Congress 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholic”, while citing Lambert’s book, appears to be a non scholarly assertion, drawn from Lambert’s text, without explaining the methodology.

I’m guessing that the rest of this (based on “118 delegates” and “three Deists”) is information taken from this “Religious Affiliation of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America” article, at Adherents•com.
http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
 

A review of those that signed the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, or delegates to the Constitutional Convention provides a total of three Deists. Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, and Thomas Jefferson.

The is not even Jefferson thought of himself as a Deist, saying ” as far as I know I am a sect unto myself” because he held views of Unitarians, Deists, and Anglican. So are you saying the other 118 individuals were not a brilliant as those three?

Most “credible” historians, credit eight American patriots as being “primary” Founding Fathers. Of those eight, six are considered to be Deists, – Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison – only John Jay, is considered to have been a strict adherent to “Christianity”. And Alexander Hamilton, it is said, took Communion on his death bed, after his fatal duel with Aaron Burr.

Regardless of the open-to-interpretation affiliations of the other signers of the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution, Paine, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, and Madison, were the most influential in what wound up in America’s two most important Founding documents.

They put “nature’s god” and the “laws of nature” in the DOI, and they took all “gods” out of the Constitution. This was by “design”. The other Founders signed those documents. Those documents, whether those other Founders got snookered, or not, form the basis of a “secular” government, determined to prohibit the intermingling of CHURCH and STATE.

Here’s one of the better treatments on the subject…

The Christian Nation Myth, By Farell Tillhttp://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

Treason_Detector,
Could it be because Lambert wrote an article not a book?
Here is an actual list of the Founding Fathers and their religious affiliations. http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
Like most of Mr. Till’s writing that book is a myth all its own, and a terrible attempt at revisionism. How do you account for the fact that only three Founding Fathers were Deists?
Why do you ignore that they also put “Creator” and “Supreme Judge” in the DOI as well? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT FIT YOUR AGENDA?

Could it be because Lambert wrote an article not a book?

No. The Wiki article is not by Lambert. Who ever contributed that section that you plagiarized, referenced Lambert’s BOOK.

Here is an actual list of the Founding Fathers and their religious affiliations.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/F...

.
Interesting. That’s the same link that I posted in the comment that you have replied to. Do you even read the posts that you respond to? It does not appear to be the case, and it explains why you are so consistently, and repeatedly, wrong. I am well aware that Jefferson referenced “their creator” and a “supreme judge” in the Declaration of Independence. Those are references to deism and providence only, it does not indicate a bias in favor of Judeo-Christian mythology. I’m also convinced that they weren’t Jefferson’s idea. They were a compromise with the Christian representatives that want Christ and the Abrahamic “God” to get recognition in the Declaration. Eleven years later, Madison showed no such willingness to compromise with the Constitution. Like it, or not, the Founders gave all “gods” the boot from the Constitution, even the small-capped “nature’s god” and “creator”.

Treason_Detector,
First off genius I never claimed that Lambert wrote the wikipedia article. Journals have articles as well.
Newspapers have articles. However, it was a book, that neither of us has a complete copy of, google books omits parts, as does Amazon.
To be Honest with you no I did not read the entire diatribe in that post as I was on the way out the door for work. In it you mention “‘credible’ historians,” name some of these “‘credible’ historians” that only identify eight Founding Fathers. Would you consider the National Archives to be “credible”? They name eight founding fathers from Delaware alone, and 67 total for the Constitutional Convention. http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_founding_fathers.html
You want there to only be eight founding fathers to fit your agenda. The funny thing is when you said you were a Deist like the founding Fathers, you never used the word “primary.” You do not even quote the Declaration of Independence correctly. It does have the following comments: “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God”, “are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”, “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions”, and “with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence”. That is FOUR references to a Supreme being. You normally only account for the first, and do not capitalize the right words. What could be your reason for incorrectly quoting that document, other than for your own twisted revisionary agenda?
No, the founders did not give all gods the boot from the Constitution, they addressed using Article V, and added the First Amendment so that all religions would be protected. You have yet to address the fact that only three of the many Founding Fathers were actually connected to Deists. And one of those did not claim Deism as his religion in his own writings (Jefferson). You are convinced that they were not Jefferson’s own ideas in the DOI? Then care to explain why there is a Jefferson Bible?

Treason_Detector,
First off genius I never claimed that Lambert wrote the wikipedia article. Journals have articles as well.
Newspapers have articles. However, it was a book, that neither of us has a complete copy of, google books omits parts, as does Amazon.
To be Honest with you no I did not read the entire diatribe in that post as I was on the way out the door for work. In it you mention “‘credible’ historians,” name some of these “‘credible’ historians” that only identify eight Founding Fathers. Would you consider the National Archives to be “credible”? They name eight founding fathers from Delaware alone, and 67 total for the Constitutional Convention. http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_founding_fathers.html
You want there to only be eight founding fathers to fit your agenda. The funny thing is when you said you were a Deist like the founding Fathers, you never used the word “primary.” You do not even quote the Declaration of Independence correctly. It does have the following comments: “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God”, “are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”, “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions”, and “with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence”. That is FOUR references to a Supreme being. You normally only account for the first, and do not capitalize the right words. What could be your reason for incorrectly quoting that document, other than for your own twisted revisionary agenda?
No, the founders did not give all gods the boot from the Constitution, they addressed using Article V, and added the First Amendment so that all religions would be protected. You have yet to address the fact that only three of the many Founding Fathers were actually connected to Deists. And one of those did not claim Deism as his religion in his own writings (Jefferson). You are convinced that they were not Jefferson’s own ideas in the DOI? Then care to explain why there is a Jefferson Bible?

When you duplicate your posts, it only adds another level of confusion to your already confused arguments.

As for credible historians, that put the “primary” Founders count at around eight, like myself, how about Richard B. Morris, author of Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries? His seven:  Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton.

Or, how about, Gordon S. Wood, author of Revolutionary Characters: What Made the Founders Different. His eight: George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Adams, Thomas Paine, and Aaron Burr.

You do not even quote the Declaration of Independence [DOI] correctly. It does have the following comments: “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God”, “are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”, “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions”, and “with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence”. That is FOUR references to a Supreme being. You normally only account for the first, and do not capitalize the right words. What could be your reason for incorrectly quoting that document, other than for your own twisted revisionary agenda.

I’m afraid that you have failed again, Todd. I was not quoting the “engrossed copy” of The Declaration of Independence. I was quoting Jefferson’s rough draft. It proves that Jefferson did not “intend” to ascribe capital “D” divinity to the “nature’s god” mentioned in the DOI.

If you don’t believe me Todd, take a look at this image of Jefferson’s first draft…
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6BYG-3Y67vs/TjgDKvBNKXI/AAAAAAAAAPI/pxiMCwEouEg/declarationnocaps.gif

See? Jefferson capitalized sporadic nouns, throughout the document, with a poetic, unknown, mysterious cadence. The capitalization of “Nature’s God”, “Laws of Nature”, “Creator”, and “Supreme Judge”, are just an unexplainable fluke. Then again, maybe you’d like to try to explain it?

Your turn, He Who Calls Me “Einstein”.

Treason_Detector,
So far you have named a Historian that has seven, and eight that do not match yours. So who’s arguments are confused again?
As to the capitalization, no it is not an unexplainable Fluke. Even in 1776′s Olde English style, words mean things in English. Not capitalizing them would change the meaning.
As to Duplicate posts, the Dashboard does that when it displays two of your posts. It was not a conscious effort on my part.
Sill waiting on you to name one Deist Founding Father other than Franklin, Jefferson, or Harnett.
St

Treason_Detector,
All the Rough Draft of Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence proves is that Jefferson was not finished with it yet. The “engrossed ” copy proves that the Founding Fathers were trying to make a point to a Monarch that thought they had Divine Rule, George III.
As to your list of “primary” Founding Father’s shall we look at them one at a time?
1. George Washington: Episcopalian (Anglican)
2. Benjamin Franklin: Raised Episcopalian, became a Deist as an adult.
3. Thomas Jefferson: Raised Episcopalian, was a Protestant while President, claimed no denomination in later life.
4. John Adams: Congregationalist/Unitarian
5. John Jay: Episcopalian (singed none of the founding documents, did not participate in the Constitutional Convention, wrote Federalists Papers, was first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court)
6. James Madison: Episcopalian
7. Alexander Hamilton: Episcopalian
8. Thomas Paine: Deist (Signed none of the Founding Documents)
9. Aaron Burr: Presbyterian (Signed none of the Founding Documents)
So out of Nine people you have three that had nothing to do with the founding documents and two that were actually Deists. Whose argument is it that Fails again? Are you not the one that claimed to be a Deist like the Founding Fathers, most of who happened to be Christians?

Todd said…

Treason_Detector,
All the Rough Draft of Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence proves is that Jefferson was not finished with it yet. The “engrossed ” copy proves that the Founding Fathers were trying to make a point to a Monarch that thought they had Divine Rule, George III.
As to your list of “primary” Founding Father’s shall we look at them one at a time?
1. George Washington: Episcopalian (Anglican)
2. Benjamin Franklin: Raised Episcopalian, became a Deist as an adult.
3. Thomas Jefferson: Raised Episcopalian, was a Protestant while President, claimed no denomination in later life.
4. John Adams: Congregationalist/Unitarian
5. John Jay: Episcopalian (singed none of the founding documents, did not participate in the Constitutional Convention, wrote Federalists Papers, was first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court)
6. James Madison: Episcopalian
7. Alexander Hamilton: Episcopalian
8. Thomas Paine: Deist (Signed none of the Founding Documents)
9. Aaron Burr: Presbyterian (Signed none of the Founding Documents)
So out of Nine people you have three that had nothing to do with the founding documents and two that were actually Deists. Whose argument is it that Fails again? Are you not the one that claimed to be a Deist like the Founding Fathers, most of who happened to be Christians?

Please cite your source for these “religious affilation” conclusions, and name a credible historian who thinks that that source is “credible”.

Todd said…

Treason_Detector,
So far you have named a Historian that has seven, and eight that do not match yours. So who’s arguments are confused again?As to the capitalization, no it is not an unexplainable Fluke. Even in 1776′s Olde English style, words mean things in English. Not capitalizing them would change the meaning. As to Duplicate posts, the Dashboard does that when it displays two of your posts. It was not a conscious effort on my part.Sill waiting on you to name one Deist Founding Father other than Franklin, Jefferson, or Harnett.

My list of “primary” Founding Fathers is almost identical to theirs. Your list of 118 “primary” Founding Fathers? Not so much.

Treason_Detector,
Where did you study English? Almost and Identical when put together are an Oxymoron. You mention eight, together your two “credible Historians” have nine. I, genius (note sarcasm here), never used the term Primary, as all the Founding Fathers deserve credit. Even those that could never be fathers, like Abigail Adams/. Looks to me like it is you, not Limbaugh that is trying to revise history.

Better Yet prove them wrong. Did you not know that Franklin wrote an Auto-Biography? Is he credible enough for you on his own religious affiliation? Or would you rather revise history a little more on your own?
You have yet to name one founding father that was a Deist, I have named four, catch up.

Treason_Detector,Where did you study English? Almost and Identical when put together are an Oxymoron. You mention eight, together your two “credible Historians” have nine. I, genius (note sarcasm here), never used the term Primary, as all the Founding Fathers deserve credit. Even those that could never be fathers, like Abigail Adams. Looks to me like it is you, not Limbaugh that is trying to revise history.

From the Cambridge History of English Literature, Volume 3…
 
“It’s immediate origin lay in a certain stylistic tendency then fashionable in England. An almost identical craze had existed, a little earlier, in Spain, namely, in Guevara’s alto estilo, which, however, lacked the English device of aliteration.”
 
Like everything else that you’ve written, in here, concerning the religious affiliation of the “primary” Founding Fathers – those most responsible for framing America’s founding documents – your assertion that “almost identical” is an oxymoron, is also grievously in error. What a surprise.
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=5A9EAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA348&lpg=PA348&dq=%22almost+identical%22+English+Literature&source=bl&ots=n-qM221SMP&sig=XDGHcPEGrXjTcaA6A4yFyHrFyPo&hl=en&ei=xPl6ToGHGYaUtweu3snqDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22almost%20identical%22%20English%20Literature&f=false  

You have yet to name one founding father that was a Deist, I have named four, catch up.

From the initial post of this nested thread…

I said…

Most “credible” historians, credit eight American patriots as being “primary” Founding Fathers. Of those eight, six are considered to be Deists, – Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison…

That was identifying six, but then, you’ve already admitted that you don’t even read the posts that you reply to. 

Yet you named none of them as Deists, and you named several that are not Deists. Failure again. When you prove that any of those other than Benjamin Franklin, then you got nothing. In your original comment you tried to make it sound like all</I all the Founding Fathers were Deists, which is no where close to the truth.
You have written:
"Thomas Jefferson, a "Deist" like myself, would find your LYAO sad." Yet there is no proof that Jefferson is a Deist, not even the Monticello museum agrees with you, genius. http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs
You have written: "So, were Doctor Franklin and a few of his contemporaries Pagans, or deists?
They were "Deists" in my book. Most Christians, on the other hand, when faced with unrevised history, would consider that "primary" Founding Fathers "Pagans", because they didn't believe in the Judeo-Christian "God"." Franklin actually admitted to be a Deist, not a Pagan. I love how you elected yourself as the person that can decide what a persons religion is.
You have further written: "Now let's look at Jefferson. Again, keep in mind that, in my post that you have commented to, I expoused that the Founders were “Deists”.” Emphasis added by me. Uh no, most of the Founders were Christians.
You also wrote: “Like our Founding Fathers, I’m a Deist, so it really concerns me that you might secretely, as a potential President, be favoring one Deity over another. The primary Founding Fathers – Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and Benjamin Franklin – would not look fondly on what you are doing Mr. Caine.” Emphasis added by me, except the strikethrough, that was yours.
Come on Treason_Detector Name a Deist other than Benjamin Franklin.
Whose arguments are it that are confused now? Who is it that used all Founding Fathers and then wanted to limit it to Eight in the Next Sentence No wonder you cannot make a valid cogent argument.

Yet you named none of them as Deists, and you named several that are not Deists. Failure again. When you prove that any of those other than Benjamin Franklin, then you got nothing. In your original comment you tried to make it sound like all</I all the Founding Fathers were Deists, which is no where close to the truth.
You have written:
"Thomas Jefferson, a "Deist" like myself, would find your LYAO sad." Yet there is no proof that Jefferson is a Deist, not even the Monticello museum agrees with you, genius. http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs
You have written: "So, were Doctor Franklin and a few of his contemporaries Pagans, or deists?
They were "Deists" in my book. Most Christians, on the other hand, when faced with unrevised history, would consider that "primary" Founding Fathers "Pagans", because they didn't believe in the Judeo-Christian "God"." Franklin actually admitted to be a Deist, not a Pagan. I love how you elected yourself as the person that can decide what a persons religion is.
You have further written: "Now let's look at Jefferson. Again, keep in mind that, in my post that you have commented to, I expoused that the Founders were “Deists”.” Emphasis added by me. Uh no, most of the Founders were Christians.
You also wrote: “Like our Founding Fathers, I’m a Deist, so it really concerns me that you might secretely, as a potential President, be favoring one Deity over another. The primary Founding Fathers – Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and Benjamin Franklin – would not look fondly on what you are doing Mr. Caine.” Emphasis added by me, except the strikethrough, that was yours.
Come on Treason_Detector Name a Deist other than Benjamin Franklin.
Whose arguments are it that are confused now? Who is it that used all Founding Fathers and then wanted to limit it to Eight in the Next Sentence No wonder you cannot make a valid cogent argument.

Treason_Detector,
They are still not almost, nor are they identical. One Historian had seven in his list. The other had eight. If you take out duplications you end up with nine total. You list only had eight. That is not Almost Identical. You do realize that almost only counts in Horseshoes, hand grenades, and global thermonuclear war, and you are not playing with any of those. Anything playing anything else means you failed.

Treason_Detector,
They are still not almost, nor are they identical. One Historian had seven in his list. The other had eight. If you take out duplications you end up with nine total. You list only had eight. That is not Almost Identical. You do realize that almost only counts in Horseshoes, hand grenades, and global thermonuclear war, and you are not playing with any of those. Anything playing anything else means you failed.

Todd now says…

Yet you named none of them as Deists, and you named several that are not Deists. Failure again. When you prove that any of those other than Benjamin Franklin, then you got nothing. In your original comment you tried to make it sound like all the Founding Fathers were Deists, which is no where close to the truth.

You’re ability to prevaricate, successfully, needs work.

From the “original comment”…

Most “credible” historians, credit eight American patriots as being “primary” Founding Fathers. Of those eight, six are considered to be Deists, – Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison – only John Jay, is considered to have been a strict adherent to “Christianity”. And, of the other non Deist, Alexander Hamilton, it is said, that he only took Communion on his death bed, after his fatal duel with Aaron Burr.

Regardless of the open-to-interpretation affiliations of the other signers of the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution, Paine, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, and Madison, were the most influential in what wound up in America’s two most important Founding documents.

My “Deist” assertion, about the Founding Fathers, has always been limited to six of the “primary” Founding Fathers – Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison. The four at the end of that list, became our first four Presidents – you know, “primary” Founders?

Treason_Detector,
Then why do the historians at Monticello disagree with you on Thomas Jefferson? You are down to five.
You dod realize that Paine never signed any of the Founding documents? So I guess his conection as a Founder is less tenuous then those that signed at least two of them?
As To Washington, only David Holmes has called him a “Christian Deist,” what is it with oxymorons in your arguments? None of Washington papers does he declare to be A Deist. Only Benjamin Franklin did so.
John Adams was a Unitarian, not a Deist. For those keeping count that leaves you with two. It is up to you to prove that I am wrong. Oh and Adams wife Abigail was a Congregationalist.
As to James Madison, he was an Episcopalian, attending St. John Episcopal Church while President. Look at that, you have only Benjamin Franklin left, the only true Deist of the bunch. You went from six to the one that everyone knew was a Deist because of his auto-biography.
That is how failed your argument is.

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