Charlamagne On Calling Trump a Fascist: ‘Hitler Didn’t Kill the Jews on Day One’

“Hitler didn’t kill the Jews on day one” is the sort of provocative and yet historically accurate comment expects from some who is at the top of their game in populist political media.

Charlamagne tha God has built a career on confronting power without flinching, and drawing a lot of attention along the way. On this week’s Press Club, he made clear that his candor isn’t a persona, but a principle.

“My dad always told me that the fastest way between two points is a straight line,” the Breakfast Club co-host told Mediaite founding editor Colby Hall. “If I were saying this on the radio, when I see you in person, I gotta have that same conversation with you, or I’m fake.”

That ethos has shaped the way he talks about President Donald Trump. Throughout the president’s political career, Charlamagne has remained consistent in calling out the gap between rhetoric and behavior when it comes to labeling him a “fascist.”

“The problem I have is when politicians use that language, but then don’t act like that person is what you just told us that person was,” he said. “Never in the history of mankind has somebody worked with a fascist and it’s worked… That is exactly how fascism gets normalized.”

But all the while, Charlamagne continues to imagine how he would confront Trump directly. When asked whether he would interview him, he didn’t pause: “Absolutely.”

“Remember when you said this?” he said, mimicking how he’d play back Trump’s own words on-air. “You can’t call BS on yourself.”

He’s unmoved by the idea that Trump has become insulated by friendly media. To Charlamagne, none of that changes the responsibility of journalists who actually get the opportunity to sit across from him.

When Trump lashed out at Charlamagne after his August appearance on Lara Trump’s Fox News show, labeling him “racist” for criticizing the administration in its first six months, he didn’t just shrug it off, but almost relished the absurdity.

“I love that part, because I didn’t say anything racist. I didn’t even bring up race,” he said. “If he calls me a racist because a Black person is critiquing him, boy, that’s a new level of racism.”

The Trump orbit is something Charlamagne watches carefully. He’s deeply aware of how easily outrage with the president turns into exhaustion and then indifference, especially when Trump shifts between entertainer and president.

“This guy was the executive producer of Celebrity Apprentice… He’s a performer,” Charlamagne said. “It’s kind of unfair in a lot of ways when we try to compare other politicians to him.”

At the same time, he’s clear that voters, commentators, and institutions can’t treat Trump like harmless reality-TV nostalgia. His warning is blunt: “Treat the Constitution like it’s your favorite celebrity.”

Charlamagne’s sharpest critiques, though, are reserved for the politicians who denounce Trump in public and then soften, or even collaborate, when the cameras are off.

“You’re undermining the meaning of the word,” he said of Democratic figures who call Trump a fascist but then fail to adequately push back against him. “None of those words will mean anything in the future.”

It bothers him not just as a political observer, but as someone who believes public language should match public stakes.

“Let’s say 2026 comes and there really are ICE agents at the poll booths… You can’t call that fascism and authoritarianism now, because you told us you can work with this,” he said. “Y’all are normalizing everything.”

He is equally unsparing toward Democrats when discussing New York City Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani’s victory, framing the establishment’s reluctance to support him as yet another example of political elites losing touch with what voters actually care about.

“They never wanna do what the people want to do,” Charlamagne said. “Anybody like that… you’re gonna get left behind. Because those days are over.”

And while Charlamagne’s commentary is sharp, it isn’t hardened. He talks openly about the moments when fame distorted his own perspective.

“There was definitely a period… where I felt like, ‘Yeah, this is all about me,’” he admitted, crediting his wife for snapping him back to reality with a simple: “‘Who are you? Yeah, what’s up with you?’”

That combination — accountability for others, accountability for himself — is what makes Charlamagne’s Trump commentary land differently than most punditry. He’s not afraid of calling out authoritarian behaviors, nor of acknowledging when he has doubts.

Subscribe to Press Club on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Read a transcript of the conversation below, edited for length and clarity.

Colby Hall: On today’s Press Club, we have the one and only co-host of the Breakfast Club, pride of Power 105 FM, and Moncks Corner, South Carolina, Charlamagne tha God.

Charlamagne tha God: Colby, what’s up, man? How are you, brother?

It’s good to see you again.

Good to see you, man.

So, just right out of the start, like I let the audience know that you and I have a history. We worked together.

Absolutely. At iHeart, like fifteen years ago?

Well, no, I left maybe eight years ago. I guess the question is, how much do you credit your success to me? But for real, when we were there, Breakfast Club pioneered the idea of video podcasting. You were doing a radio show, and y’all thought, let’s get a video camera in here and let’s post this video online — which by the way, a lot of bonuses were made because of traffic to those old school iHeart players.

Absolutely.

And you got great guests, and you did good interviews. How did that come to be? What was that sort of epiphany?

Well, first of all, I’m glad that you acknowledge that, Colby. And when we do the Breakfast Club documentary, you have to be in it. Because we need people other than us to say those types of things. Cause when we say it, it’s just like, “Oh sure, of course you pioneered video podcasting.” But no, it came to be because myself, Angela Yee, and DJ Envy were all doing that individually. So, when I was doing radio in Philadelphia, I was putting my interviews up online. I was either posting it from an audio perspective or posting it from a video perspective. I used to see DJ Envy when he was on, I think, Hip Hop Nation on Sirius satellite radio. He would be posting his videos online. Angela Yee was on Shade 45, which was Sirius satellite radio. She’d be posting her videos. And at the time, it wasn’t a lot of people doing that in radio. A young lady named Devi Brown or Kendra G — those were the individuals who were doing it. And that’s how we kind of all knew each other, right? Because of our videos. And so when we came together to do Breakfast Club, iHeart didn’t give us no promotion in the marketing.

Well, what’s funny is that I remember the videos would go up just on the janky iHeart player.

The dot com.

And they would get ripped and put up on YouTube, which was kind of stolen content. You’re like, “No, no, no, no, no, that’s our street team. Let it be.”

That’s right.

And so I kind of looked the other way.

Yeah.

I was like, “All right, well, that’s fine.” And we were getting enough traffic anyway. Why mess with success? And you guys were blowing up. I will say, I do remember hearing that you almost made me Donkey of the Day. Do you remember that?

I remember you told me that before, but I don’t remember what it was for.

You went to Coach Thea and said that the YouTube videos got taken down, and you thought I did it. And I went to you, and you and I had it out in the studio. And I was like, “Dude, that wasn’t me. And also, if you’ve got an issue, come to me.” But it worked out. You were cool. It was good.

Because we didn’t have no promotion and marketing, so that was our promotion and marketing.

And it worked.

We all understood the internet, literally from day one. It’ll be 15 years tomorrow that Breakfast Club started, right? December 6th. 15 years ago, when we started putting those videos up on the dot com, that was our promo and marketing team. So, when we used to go viral and YouTube used to snatch it, and all of these different websites, the virality of those interviews is what brought people back to the radio.

It was perfect, it was like free marketing.

That’s right.

Because it was based on good content. I remember a seminal moment for me when I was there, Kanye came in — it was like 2012, 2013. And it was just when he was starting to come off maybe unfrayed, like his narcissism was coming out, and he’d put out a video with him and Kim Kardashian on a motorcycle, and you sort of confronted him. You were like, “I like the classic music, I love what you’ve done as a producer. What is all of this?”

New album is wack.

Well, right, and so, I guess that’s what stood out to me. That was a seminal moment for me, where you were like, “Look, I’m a fan, but I’m not afraid to just kind of call bullshit where I see it.”

Yeah, because my dad always told me that the fastest way between two points is a straight line. And I don’t like talking behind somebody’s back. So, if I were saying this on the radio, when I see you in person, I gotta have that same conversation with you, or I’m fake. And I remember I used to always call him Kanye Kardashian around that time as well. And I remember the rep from Def Jam, her name was Natina. Natina was like, “Please don’t call him Kanye Kardashian!” First two words out of my mouth, DJ Envy goes, “We got a special guest in the building,” and I go, “Kanye Kardashian.”

Well, he said something in that interview that stuck with me, where he sort of rationalized his behavior, and it explains a lot. He said, “The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference.” And he basically made the argument that he’d rather be hated than ignored. And it explains a lot about him, but I think it’s also kind of instructive of how the media attention economy has worked. You see it today with people like Olivia Nuzzi and the Trump administration, where people stoke conflict and controversy. Even if it makes them look bad, at least they’re getting talked about. What do you think of that? Do you think that’s a fair assessment?

I think there was a period in my life where I felt like that. There was definitely a period in my career where I felt like that. Only because I think it’s kind of hard not to, especially when you are on a rocket ship like Breakfast Club, and you’re starting to experience success, and you start to see what people are saying about you. Not just on social media, but I remember Rolling Stone did an article, and it was like, “Charlamagne tha God is hip hop’s Howard Stern.” And when you start to see those types of things, you feel like you gotta feed people what they expect from you.

You gotta play the part.

Yeah, but you quickly realize, like that’s not a way that’s gonna keep you around long. That doesn’t lead to longevity and sustainability.

Did you ever, I guess to cite Biz Markie, “Get the vapors”? Did you ever have to check yourself?

Oh, 100%. Especially around 2013, 2014. And it’s nothing that probably would ever show up to people, because I’m just not that type of person. But just in my mind, I did feel like, “Yeah, this is all about me.” And that wasn’t even just professionally, that was personally. That’s the type of stuff that almost ruins the most important relationships in your life. Your relationship with your wife, right? Because my wife and I have been together since 1998. So she knows me. She’s the person who can look at me and be like —

What’s up with you?

Who are you? Yeah, what’s up with you? And so those are the type of things that give you a reality check.

That’s good. So, let’s move to politics. I’m glad that you don’t remember the Donkey of the Day thing because I was gonna —

I really don’t.

That’s all right. So, this Trump administration. You’ve been pretty vocal about calling out the media for giving him a pass, not using specific words, not saying that the Trump administration is acting fascist. Do you hold by that, or is fascist too big a word? Authoritarian, maybe more? I’ve kind of written the same stuff, but I’m just gonna take the devil’s advocate approach. I think fascism, people think of Hitler. He’s not Hitler, but he’s authoritarian, I think it’s fair to say. Do you think the media — political media, cable news — has gotten any better on that?

One of my Jewish friends always says that Hitler didn’t kill the Jews on day one. He killed them on day 600. I don’t even know if that’s the exact number, but what he’s saying is that it all starts somewhere.

Right.

So, in light of history, if you’ve seen how fascist regimes come into power, if you see how authoritarian regimes come into power, it starts with where we kind of are now, with people normalizing things that shouldn’t be normalized. I think the media personalities, influencers, we should be the ones using that language. The problem I have is when politicians use that language, but then don’t act like that person is what you just told us that person was. If you’re Joe Biden, and you say Donald Trump is a threat to democracy, but then when Donald Trump wins the presidency, you’re standing outside the White House saying, “Welcome home.” Or if you’re Zohran Mamdani, and you say, “Donald Trump is a fascist,” but then you’re saying you can work with a fascist, and I’m like, “Well, that’s not how fascism works.” Never in the history of mankind has somebody worked with a fascist and it’s worked. Like that’s actually how you normalize fascism. What that does is number one, it makes those words mean absolutely nothing — threat to democracy, fascist. But then us, we, the people, we’re out here doing this. I have two friends who are Cuban. They hate Zohran Mamdani because Zohran Mamdani has been labeled a communist. They’re like, “You don’t understand. Our grandparents told us stories, and Fidel Castro was charming just like him, and this guy is a communist and blah, blah, blah.” And I’m just like, think about the fear that you’re instilling in people. When you call somebody a fascist, when you say that they’re the next Hitler, think about what that does to society. But then you politicians, y’all are in the White House just having a drink together and saying y’all can work together.

So, to be straight, you think it’s bad for politicians to use those labels.

Absolutely.

But as a commentator, you’re using the label of calling Trump a fascist. Isn’t that sort of similar? Is that like a double standard?

Well, I think I’ve switched it up, and I go back and forth. I’ve openly said I go back and forth on whether or not I believe he’s a fascist, just because of what I see from people who told me he was a fascist. You wouldn’t be playing footsie with a fascist at a funeral, right, President Obama? Right? You wouldn’t be saying you can work with a fascist if you really believed he was a fascist, right, Zohran Mamdani? So, if these are just regular political disagreements and we’ve gotten to the point where the rhetoric can be so intense for them, but those words don’t actually matter, man, how much stock should we really put into it? But then I also got eyes, and I also got ears. And especially being a media personality, there is a lot of authoritarian strategy being implemented in regards to media. When you’re telling the FCC chair, “Hey man, we might have to pull their license if they don’t do what we say,” or, “We’re not gonna authorize this deal if they don’t fire this guy,” that is an authoritarian strategy.

Look at what’s going on in the Pentagon.

Absolutely.

Anyone who’s saying that these are not an authoritarian playbook, they’re missing the point.

You gotta call it out, but that’s our job. I don’t want politicians to do that because then they look hypocritical. And then I stop believing in the politicians. And what nobody needs right now, especially in the Democratic Party, is for people not to believe in the process, right? You want people to still have some energy, especially next year, for a midterm. You want people to have energy in 2028. But, if y’all keep acting like this is politics as usual, you’re just gonna turn everybody off.

You have a history of interviewing powerful politicians during their candidacy. The Kamala interview made a lot of news. You had a great interview with Pete Buttigieg. There’s a long list of people who have walked through, and you do really good interviews.

Thank you.

I remember, and I don’t know if your position has changed, but there was a conversation, or someone threw the idea of like, “Would you interview President Trump?” And you at the time were like, “Of course I would.” Your take on Trump, I think, is pretty unique because you will criticize his authoritarian style, but you are not afraid to give him credit as a communicator, as a comedian, as an entertainer. And I’m not sure that it would happen, but theoretically, if you had the opportunity for Trump to go on the Breakfast Club, would you interview him now?

Absolutely.

And so then here’s the question that I have: I think a lot of people sort of dig themselves into a position where they really hate Trump. And that comes across immediately at the interview. And interviews are all about hosting a party. You want to make the subject feel welcome and relaxed, and part of that is showing some mutual respect and kindness. I think Trump is a guy who sort of is effusive. He gives the energy that he gets, right? So if you were with Trump, how would you approach that? Would you be combative? Would you be nice? How does that go down?

I think my temperament is pretty much the same, regardless of who I’m interviewing. I just have a series of questions that I want to ask, and a conversation that I want to have. And depending on the questions I ask you, I don’t know how you may take my questions. You may feel offended by my questions. If I was sitting down with Donald Trump, I would do the mirror strategy. Like, “Remember when you said this?” Because I think what we people get caught up with Trump is that they ask him things, right? They have conversations with him, and they’d be like, “Well, you said such and such,” and he’d be like, “You’re a liar. I never said that.”

Fake news.

Fake news. So, what happens is that clip goes out, and his audience, the people that like him, or people that don’t even like him, or don’t even know how they feel about him, they watch that, and they’re like, “Well, I don’t know if he said that or not.”

Right. It raises questions.

But if you’re actually interviewing him and you say, “Remember when you said this,” and you play it, when that clip goes viral, it’s him reacting to him. It’s kind of hard to say that’s a lie. It’s kind of hard to say that’s fake news.

You can’t call BS on that.

You can’t call BS on yourself. He wouldn’t be able to call BS on himself. So that would be my strategy. So, is he gonna be offended by his own words?

He seems to be in a different place. He seems to be in a bubble where he’s very accessible to the media, but the media that’s defined by his communications team. There’s all these toadies that are pro-Trump people that are in the room. It seems like his appearances are increasingly limited, and have been for some time, to very friendly pro–Trump voices. So, it doesn’t seem plausible that he would be showing up at the Breakfast Club.

You know what’s interesting? People say that his appearances are very friendly, especially during the last campaign. Those were risky appearances. You don’t know how an interview on Rogan is gonna go. You don’t know how an interview on Flagrant with Andrew Schultz is gonna go.

I don’t know. I disagree. I think those dudes — you know Andrew Schultz well, and I think he’s great, but these are guys who are getting a chance to sit down with potentially the most powerful person in the world. And I just think that sort of dynamic, the power structure there is that they’re not gonna jeopardize the access by asking, by holding his feet to the fire. And he really loves to bro out. He’s a golfer. He loves to hang out with the dudes in the grill room after playing. He loves that. And so it seems like none of those guys asked any tough questions. It may have been dangerous theoretically because he couldn’t control it. But did Joe Rogan challenge him on anything? Did Andrew Schultz really challenge him?

I’ll be honest with you, I didn’t watch the whole three hours with Joe Rogan.

Well, I mean, how can you? Who’s got three hours to watch Joe Rogan fellating Trump?

I did watch the Flagrant one. I thought there was a moment in the Flagrant one where they were having a conversation about immigration. And I thought Andrew was really holding his feet to the fire on immigration, on the border issue. I’m surprised that that moment didn’t get more attention.

It’s funny because those guys, I wouldn’t say they’ve completely turned on Trump, but Andrew Schultz has been pretty vocal, like, “Yo, what is going on with this administration?”

Rogan too.

Yeah, but that seems to be getting less impact. I think in 2024, Kamala was so cautious with her words. It was a perfect example of the Democratic challenge. It’s like, “I don’t want to say anything that will offend anyone, so I’m gonna be so careful with my words that I’m gonna end up sounding like I’m not saying anything.”

Oh my god, yes. I’ll get to that point too, but I wanna go back to one thing. The reason I think it was risky is because I listened to enough Flagrant — of course, Andrew Schultz is my guy, and I listen to enough Rogan to hear how they feel about these issues in their whole totality. To a lot of people who are new to these spaces, they just think they’re MAGA bros or podcast bros — whatever you call them. But if you listen to these guys, you know that they’re objective. The same way Andrew interviewed Trump, he interviewed Mamdani, he interviews a Bernie, he interviews a Pete Buttigieg. It’s all friendly. It’s not combative, right? And Rogan was a guy who supported Bernie in 2016. So, he’s a guy who’s gonna ask those tough questions if he has them to ask.

Well, do you think Rogan’s influence is misunderstood?

Yes.

Because to me, he seems like, I wouldn’t say failed comedian, but like a former comedian who’s found this sort of format where he just shoots the shit with smart dudes, and he doesn’t really hold himself accountable. He’s not really responsible with the stuff that he puts out there, but he’s not trying to be. I think he’s being held to a journalistic standard that he’s not aiming for.

I agree.

But I also feel like he needs to be more responsible. Given the size, at some point, you get to be a big enough talent with a big enough audience, you need to be careful of the words you use.

Yeah, I mean, that’s something that I completely understand. I wish we had a fact-checker in Breakfast Club. I wish we had an on-the-scene fact-checker right then and there that could say, “Oh, actually that’s not true.”

“You got that one wrong.”

Yeah. There’s certain things I can catch, or there are certain things other people in the room can catch, but everybody’s not gonna catch everything. If that was the case, then how come these guys like the JD Vances and the Mike Johnsons can go on Sunday morning news and spew things that aren’t factual, spew things that aren’t accurate? Those are supposed to be the legacy media outlets. How come they’re not getting fact-checked there?

Right.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t.

Have there been moments where you’ve looked back and go, “Damn, I got that one wrong?” Does that happen often, or do you have regrets about things that come out of your mouth?

I tend not to live with regret, but I’m also comfortable knowing that I don’t know everything. So, I learn by having these conversations. If somebody says something that wasn’t accurate and then, later, on social media or a good friend tells me like, “No, that wasn’t right,” it’s just like, “Oh, okay.”

Yeah. The smarter you get, the more you realize how little you know.

Yeah, but have conversations about it after the fact. That’s the thing you should do on your platform, and that’s the beauty of a show like Breakfast Club or the Brilliant Idiots podcast. We’re not just moving on to interview the next guest because we’re also a talk show. We can talk about the last interview that we did. I’ll give you an example. We had Ben Shapiro on a Monday, and then Mehdi Hasan on a Wednesday. Ben and I had some back and forth, and there were some things that Ben said that I guess Mehdi didn’t think were accurate. But Mehdi was there literally a day later, to talk exactly about what Ben Shapiro said. If you’re considering it a numbers game, you look on YouTube, Mehdi’s interview had damn near two million views. Ben Shapiro got like half a million. So, what information got out there?

That conversation you had about reparations with Ben was, I thought, really fascinating. I didn’t see the Mehdi one. You should have texted me. I missed that interview.

Oh yeah, Mehdi’s a great guy. I mean, Ben’s a great guest too, but Mehdi was literally on the day after. That’s what’s so funny. I remember people were upset, like, “Why are you platforming Ben Shapiro?” First of all, Ben Shapiro doesn’t need nobody’s platform. Ben Shapiro has a huge platform all on his own. But once again, look at the totality of the week for people who are upset. We literally had Ben Shapiro on a Monday, Mehdi Hasan on a Wednesday, and if that don’t do it for you liberals, we had Jasmine Crockett on a Friday.

There you go.

So, it’s like, what do you want? I feel like we are pretty fair and balanced.

So, the Instagram algorithm somehow knew that I was gonna watch a video, a Breakfast Club video, about Q-Tip. It was 9th Wonder talking about the influence of Q-Tip as a producer.

Yeah.

And I loved it. It was great because I’m of a certain age where I’m a huge early ’90s hip-hop guy. But the thing that came to mind was like, you guys were fluently talking about like native tongues and that whole thing. And then you’re able to pivot to Ben Shapiro, Mehdi Hasan, and have a fluent conversation about all this stuff. It’s pretty good, impressive range. How do you stay informed? What’s your news dialog? You must be a sober mind that consumes a lot of media. How do you stay on top of this? Where do you go to learn about this stuff?

First of all, I credit my mother for that. My mother was an English teacher in South Carolina. She’s retired now. She might substitute every now and then, but she was an English teacher in South Carolina for 30-plus years. And the advice she gave me when I was very young was, “Read things that don’t pertain to you.” And so I’m like, “Oh, Mom, what does that mean?” “That means, you’re a young black man, you’re from South Carolina. Read about things that have nothing to do with the life you know.” So I’m like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” So I would go into the library, and I’d read mad Judy Blume. All the Judy Blume I could find. Then the Beverly Cleary, right? Then I would be reading stuff about the supernatural and UFOs. Then I’d read stuff about history. So I would just read constantly all of these things that had nothing to do with my personal worldview. And so that level of curiosity has just always stuck with me. And when you talk about hip hop, hip hop is political. You listen to Public Enemy back in the day or KRS-One, Scarface, Outkast, Goodie Mob, the hip hop I grew up on, being born in 1978, those guys were political, right? So, I always felt like it was one and the same.

Right, right.

I never felt like the worlds were far apart. Ever.

What websites do you read to keep up on the Trump administration?

Mediaite.

There you go. That’s what we wanted to hear.

It’s the truth, though. Mediaite, CNN comes across my feed, I read Fox News. When I’m at home at night, I’m going back and forth. I might have Erin Burnett on and Abby Phillip. That’s my favorite show on CNN. But then I might flip over and see what Hannity’s talking about and Laura Ingraham. Then, I’ll flip on the MSNBC and see what they’re talking about over there. So, I consume it all. NewsNation, I literally consume it all.

I think that’s rare. I want to watch programming that I don’t agree with because I want to try to understand the argument, right? And I don’t watch shows that I know that I’m gonna mostly agree with because it’s not interesting to me. And I think that’s rare, what you’re saying, because most people just wanna hear what they want to hear, and it makes us very isolated.

I hope she don’t get mad at me. My good friend Angela Rye, my good sister Angela Rye, we were having a conversation earlier, and she said to me, “How often do we talk and you consider a perspective of mine that makes you change your mind?” And I said, “Well, I consider your perspective every time we talk.” Anyone I talk to, I consider their perspective. That’s what I always strive to do. I try to put myself in their shoes. I want to see where they’re coming from, what makes them think the way they think. Why do they have the worldview that they have?

Well, that’s wisdom.

Yeah. I feel like I learned that from crackheads growing up. You can learn something from anybody. I don’t care where they’re at.

I think when people are at their lowest, or you’ve gone through some trauma, you have a window into the human condition that gives you insight and makes you appreciate different perspectives.

That’s right. And everybody doesn’t do that. You get on some of these debate shows, and sometimes, people are already sitting down with the intent to reply, not to understand. They know, “Oh, this person’s conservative, or this person’s liberal, or this person’s a white male, or this person’s a black woman.” They already feel like there’s gonna be a fight, there’s gonna be an attack. So they’re already ready to go. I sit down at these tables, and I’m like, “I’m ready to consider everybody’s perspective.” And if somebody makes me see something in a different way, I accept that, change my mind, and keep it moving.

That’s a good point. In September, you made some news when you appeared on Lara Trump’s show on Fox News. And honestly, credit to her for booking you. But she did seem maybe surprised that you came out pretty harsh on her father-in-law. And from there, there was a whole dust-up where President Trump sort of attacked you, called you “racist.” What’s your take on that?

I mean, I respect Lara Trump because she came on Breakfast Club.

Right.

So she already knew how I felt.

And she’s a great singer-songwriter.

Really?

No, I’m joking. She’s put out some music — she’s trying. I don’t know.

Yeah, I’ve seen her in some French Montana videos, but I never understood what that was about. And I’ve seen her in the studio with French. I never understood what that was about.

Yeah, no good.

But yeah, she came on Breakfast Club, so she already knew what my position was. But maybe she thought Trump was doing a great job the first six months, so she was just asking me my opinion. So, I just told her the truth. I’m like, “Yo, for a guy that said he was gonna basically get the economy 100% great on day one, he’s doing a terrible job.” He’s the one who said, “I won this election because of one word — groceries.” He made the economy an issue and said that he was gonna get everything right. Six months later, people are not feeling that in any way, shape, or form. So, I can only hold this person to their word. I think he’s doing a terrible job in that regard.

You were tough, but it ended up still being a respectful conversation. You weren’t a dick about it. And they didn’t have to air it either. And they did.

That’s true. It wasn’t live, yeah.

But then, Trump called you a racist afterwards.

I love that part, because I didn’t say anything racist. I didn’t even bring up race. We were talking about affordability. I literally was on there saying that I feel like the two things Americans want are more money in their pockets, and they want to feel safe. I was actually comparing him to Zohran Mamdani at the time. I was saying that they have very similar messaging. This was months ago.

Yeah, September.

So, I said this back in September that they have very similar messaging. Everybody’s saying that now, but I noticed that even way back then. I never brought race into it, not one time throughout that whole conversation.

So, then why do you think he said you were racist?

I really don’t know.

Well, the color of your skin, maybe? I mean, he seems to have a very specific thing towards people of color.

Yeah, but if he calls me a racist because a black person is critiquing him, boy, that’s a new level of racism. That’s a new form of racism I don’t know much about.

It’s almost just grasping at straws, like he didn’t have anything to come up with. But I’ve heard the criticism of him of using dog whistles, right? And he’s particularly tough with April Ryan.

Jasmine Crockett.

Abby Phillip. With women of color who were in the White House, he would just say, “You are so stupid.” He’s lately been doing that to a lot of female reporters, but he seems to be tougher on reporters of color.

Mm-hmm.

Like Don Lemon, in particular, he says he’s stupid. Do you think he’s explicitly racist in that way, or do you think he’s just from a different generation and has very few friends of color?

Man, it’s interesting with Trump because, to your point, anybody can get it, right?

Right.

There was a time when it felt like he was only calling people of color low IQ.

Right.

Jon Stewart had a great joke the other night. It was like, “Yo, it’s like somebody came to him and said, ‘You gotta stop calling women fat and ugly.’ And he was like, ‘Okay, got it. I’ll just start calling them stupid.’” It’s an interesting thing. I don’t know if it’s explicit racism or not. I don’t know. But I know there’s definitely a pattern.

Yeah, and also once you start guessing what the motivation is, you’re gonna get it wrong.

Absolutely.

Because it’s not your place to say. Only he can answer, and he would only answer to his own creator what it would be.

One thing I can say for sure is it’s not presidential.

Right. It’s not even respectful. Again, it seems to be that he’s very much a leader of this attention economy, this whole sort of kayfabe pro-wrestling thing. You hear stories behind the scenes that he’s a lot less charming.

I’ve heard that a million times.

He’s a dude! But you can only judge him on what you see in public, and I’m not trying to give him a pass. What do you think? Do you think it’s all an act? Or is he an Archie Bunker?

I definitely think it’s an act because he’s an entertainer. And I think that’s something that we all tend to forget. This guy was the executive producer of Celebrity Apprentice. This is the guy that we grew up watching in pizza commercials. You know what I mean? He’s a reality show star.

Home Alone 2!

Home Alone 2! He is a performer. So, it’s kind of unfair in a lot of ways when we try to compare other politicians to him. Imagine if Jon Stewart ran for president. He would run circles around everybody. Republicans, Democrats, Independents. Number one, he’s super intelligent and knows what he’s talking about, but also he’s just super charismatic and funny. When you take somebody like that, and you put them up against a bunch of people who literally have been taught to be stiff, to be performers, to sell you dreams, right? To overpromise and underdeliver. That’s what these people have done. He’s like, “Oh, I’m the best at that. I got y’all beat, and I’m charming about it and funny.” Like, yes.

You seem to want to manifest the Jon Stewart campaign.

Yes, I do.

I heard David Remnick interview Jon Stewart for The New Yorker Festival. And he mentioned to him, like Charlamagne thinks you would be a good president. And he just was like, “There’s no possible way.” So, I know ideally he’s a good candidate, but do you really think Jon Stewart would ever run for president?

I hope so. Not only do I hope so, man, do you ever look at somebody, and you say to yourself, “Man, what they’re doing is great.” Jon Stewart, when it comes to political satire, he’s the Michael Jordan of it. You wouldn’t have John Oliver, you wouldn’t have any of those people if it wasn’t for Jon Stewart. But do you ever watch him and be like, “What he’s doing is too small for him?”

Yeah.

Because he, to me, just has that type of charisma. He’s just a person who can put things in perspective for people in ways that a lot of folks can’t. And we’ve seen him as a public servant actually get legislation passed for people. Remember those firefighters on 9/11? The speech that he gave? I think it was David Hogg I was talking to. And at the time, David Hogg was a young kid who was out there protesting for those firefighters. And he said everything changed when Jon Stewart came out there and gave that speech. He said when Jon Stewart came out there and gave that speech, they started treating them differently, and that’s when the wheels started rolling, and he actually got legislation passed. Imagine him doing that as a public servant. He can take that same heart and mind into any office he chooses, whether it’s the White House, whether it’s, I don’t know, governor of New Jersey one day. I just feel like he’s built for something like that.

You’d be his running mate?

No, I wouldn’t be his running mate, but I would definitely —

Support him?

Oh, 100%. And if I could be a part of his strategy team or something, I would definitely do that.

Last topic before we wrap up — you’ve mentioned it a lot. Forgive me for not knowing this, but where did you come down on the Mamdani campaign? Were you pro-Zohran or were you pro-Cuomo?

Well, I live in New Jersey.

Right. But you come to New York, and it was obviously a big story.

Out of that field, Mamdani would probably be the best person for mayor of New York. My second was actually, and I don’t even know if it was a second, but I liked Curtis Sliwa. The reason I liked him is because he was a public servant. And he’s been a public servant for years. Those are things that you can’t teach, you know what I mean? You either really care about people or you don’t care about people. You either really care about a city or you don’t care about a city. He got shot by the mob, right? He was out there doing a public service that he didn’t have to do. When I sat down with him on Breakfast Club, I’m like, “Damn, man.” I liked him.

He’s a real character.

But Mamdani, he ran the best campaign, and the person who runs the best campaign should always win.

Do you think he was elected because of who he was as a candidate or because of his affordability agenda?

All of it.

Yeah? It’s hard, yeah. I guess it’s impossible to tease those out.

He ran against a trash field. Cuomo, I don’t think he ever really stood a real shot. Nobody really wanted that. But then, when you’re somebody like Zohran, you’re younger, you’re talking about affordability, you’re talking about keeping people safe. I think about that one moment during the debate when they were asking everybody about Israel, and he was like, “I’m thinking about New York.” That’s all America-first, New York-first messaging. We’ve seen that be very effective over the last decade.

Well, it also sort of explains maybe why he and Trump had such a cozy Oval Office, surprising meeting. I think it was just clear that they realized that they could do more together than if they were enemies.

I have no problem with the meeting, right? I think that when you are a politician, you need both sides of the aisle to get things done for the people of America. I’m not one of these people who are mad when Democrats and Republicans get in the White House. The problem I have is when you use language like fascism, and you call somebody a fascist, or you call somebody a communist, but then you turn around and tell people you can work with the fascists. It wasn’t like he just said, “I can work with Trump, and we kind of forgot about the fascism stuff.” He was on NBC — Meet the Press — and he was asked, “Well, you called him a fascist,” and he explained why he thought he was a fascist, and he was like, “But you said you can work with him.” “Yeah, I can work with a fascist.” Like that — yo!

You’re undermining the meaning of the word.

You’re undermining the meaning of the word! That is exactly how fascism gets normalized. It’s wild to me. I saw CNN run an article. It was like, “How Zohran Mamdani charmed America’s unruly uncle.” That’s what Trump is now? He’s just an unruly uncle you don’t want to see at Thanksgiving? I thought he was a threat to democracy. I thought he was an authoritarian. I thought he was a fascist. None of those words will mean anything in the future. Let’s just say 2026 comes and there really are ICE agents at the poll booths, trying to keep people from voting. Let’s say in 2028, the military — I’m not saying it would happen — but the military is on his side, and he doesn’t leave. You can’t call that fascism and authoritarianism now, because you told us you can work with this, you know what I mean? You welcomed this back into the White House. You were playing footsie with this at the funeral of President Carter. It’s just like, man, these words have to matter if you want people to care. And that’s the other thing, right? We get mad when people don’t show the outrage they should show about what’s going on in this country. It’s because y’all are normalizing everything.

Right. I mean, I will say you’re also using the word fascist. So, are you part of the problem also?

No, because I’m a media person. I should be using it.

Okay.

You’re a media person, Colby. You should be using it.

So, that’s the distinction. I’ve written a column where I’m making the same point. I’m just challenging the idea because I’m worried that some viewers might see this, like, “Well, wait a second, they’re calling Trump a fascist, but then they’re criticizing politicians.” I don’t know that people necessarily draw a distinction between politicians and media figures. You have a big audience. Jon Stewart, Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, these people have a huge influence, and you’re saying that it’s okay for them to use that language, but not politicians. I don’t know if that’s a big distinction.

Well, I’ll say this. I don’t think it should be extreme. Don’t say somebody is Hitler, like JD Vance did. JD Vance said Donald Trump was Hitler. I gotta go back to one of my Jewish friends. Hitler didn’t start killing Jewish people on day one. It was day 600 or whatever it was. But a lot of things have to happen. Politicians have to normalize them, institutions have to normalize them, the media has to normalize them.

And we’re in a world where we’re all so numb to conflict because every day there’s something. There’s three crazy things that happen every day. So, you’re just beat down. I think people are sort of out of outrage. Most of my friends who are thoughtful, well-educated, well-informed people, they just can’t. It’s like you run out of energy to even care that much anymore, and that’s how they get you.

Treat the constitution like it’s your favorite celebrity.

There you go.

Whenever people’s favorite celebrity is threatened — look how everybody rallied around Jimmy Kimmel. People were canceling Disney subscriptions, they were ready to protest against Disney and strike.

It was stunning. He’s never been more popular.

That’s what I’m saying. Treat the Constitution the way you treat your favorite celebrity.

That’s right. Finally, do you think the Democrats missed an opportunity by sort of not getting behind Mamdani? Democrats have been starving for a win, and the Mamdani win was like the biggest momentum hit. And your boy, Hakeem Jeffries, he represents Brooklyn, and the Mamdani campaign was in Brooklyn. It seemed like Schumer wasn’t there, Jeffries wasn’t there. It seemed like the Democratic establishment just didn’t want to touch Mamdani’s campaign, and I think they missed an opportunity to get with the affordability agenda.

Yeah, but those are all the establishment Democrats that need to go anyway.

Right.

That’s just another example that they showed us of why they need to go, because they don’t ever really care about what the people care about. Hakeem did endorse Mamdani at the bottom of the ninth inning, right?

Two outs left.

The reality of the situation is that they never wanna do what the people want to do.

Right.

Anybody like that, in any industry, if you’re not following what the people want and you’re still trying to hold on to what you think is Bible, you’re gonna get left behind. Because those days are over.

So, what’s up with you and Jeffries? He called you Charlatan the Fraud.

That was so corny. Oh my god.

I thought it was funny. But you called him Chuck E. Cheese Obama.

And AIPAC Shakur. Let’s not forget about that one.

That’s quality content right there. Is it a real beef?

No, I don’t even know him. It’s impossible for me to have a real beef with a politician. I am just a citizen of the United States of America. I just work in New York City.

You’re just a dude.

That’s it, right? I pay a lot of money in taxes. So, I reserve the right to criticize any of our elected officials. That’s literally what America is all about. So, it’s not beef in any way, shape, or form. It was funny when I saw him in the New York Times, because he referenced a whole lot of things that I know people in the New York Times had no idea what he was talking about.

Right.

He referenced NBA YoungBoy, Beanie Sigel, Fredro Starr, and I think Birdman. Four people that I’ve had — not NBA YoungBoy. NBA YoungBoy did a diss song about me. But three people that I’ve had actual confrontations with in the studio. I know people were reading that like, “What the hell is he even talking about?”

I think he’s an entertaining dude. I think he got a little too into the establishment.

That’s an understatement.

I mean, I think that’s what happens. You get sucked in. And your girl, Marjorie Taylor Greene, I can’t tell if she really had a conversion or an epiphany, or she just realized that she painted herself into a corner. What’s your take on Marjorie Taylor Greene?

I don’t trust it, you know? But I’m at that point, like you said, there are so many things flooding the zone. I don’t know what’s real and what’s not real anymore. In a lot of ways, she’s not wrong. Everybody has the right to change their mind, right? And I respect that. When people get mad at Andrew Schultz or they get mad at Rogan, because now they’re choosing to criticize, I don’t have a problem with that. We all have the right to make poor decisions. We all have the right to be wrong or to regret something that we did. So I’m not mad at her for that. I just don’t trust it.

Yeah.

It’s just hard for me to trust.

Well, after someone says repeated crazy things and over-the-top insults, it’s like, “Oh, now you’ve got it?”

Right! Even more so than the Trump thing, what happened to just the crazy rhetoric? What happened to the Jews have —

Space lasers.

Space lasers. What happened to that? Where did that go? Now, I see her on television, and she seems sane and normal. Did she get some new medication or something? Like, what is it?

I mean, that’s as good a guess as any. I think she got a new communications director, and that may have had a part in it. But it’s an interesting power play because without her, suddenly, the Republican control of the majority, Nancy Mace is threatening to —

We went to high school together.

Oh, for real?

Yeah, my mother and her mother taught at the same high school.

At the same age? Were you guys there at the same time?

I think I’m either a year older than Nancy or she’s a year older than me.

Any dirt? Any good gossip about Nancy Mace in high school?

Nah. But she’s an open book. She’s shared a million of her stories from high school.

Almost too much.

Yeah, she shared a million of her stories from high school. But I mean, me and Nancy, we kick it. We’ve have dinner together when I’m home in South Carolina, you know?

There you go. You go back to Charleston.

Yeah, I’m from Moncks Corner. So, I was born in Charleston because Moncks Corner didn’t have hospitals when I was born. So, I was born in Charleston, but I was raised in a small town called Moncks Corner, South Carolina.

There you go. Well, Charlamagne, it’s been a pleasure having you. Thank you for joining us.

I appreciate you, Colby. Thank you for having me.