From the WSJ article on Romneycare, the precursor of Obamacare:

The only good news we can find is that the uninsured rate has dropped to 2% today from 6% in 2006. Yet four out of five of the newly insured receive low- or no-cost coverage from the government. The subsidies will cost at least $830 million in 2011 and are growing, conservatively measured, at 5.1% a year. Total state health-care spending as a share of the budget has grown from about 16% in the 1980s to 30% in 2006 to 40% today. The national state average is about 25%.

The safety-net fund that was supposed to be unwound, well, wasn’t. Uncompensated hospital care rose 5% from 2008 to 2009, and 15% from 2009 to 2010, hitting $475 million (though the state only paid out $405 million). “Avoidable” use of emergency rooms—that is, for routine care like a sore throat—increased 9% between 2004 and 2008. Meanwhile, unsubsidized insurance premiums for individuals and small businesses have climbed to among the highest in the nation.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703864204576317413439329644.html?mod=WSJ_hps_sections_opinion

That doesn’t seem quite right

If you read his whole statement, I’m not sure how you’d disagree with that. Well, unless you are a lib who needs the nanny state gov’t to make all of your decisions for you.

Just like all our police slaves and military slaves and government employee slaves.

If people want to know what ‘Elitist’ really means, it means people like Rand Paul that don’t walk a mile in anyone else’s shoes. He’s always had medical care I’m sure, he was born into a pretty decent family, so it’s probably pretty easy for this doofus to say things like this. I’m sure he’s never been in a situation where if you can’t pay for something, you die.

Oh and it’s an interesting twist when letting people die is making them more free. That’s some 1984 shit.

Liberal Tormentor said:
If you read his whole statement, I’m not sure how you’d disagree with that. Well, unless you are a lib who needs the nanny state gov’t to make all of your decisions for you.

Are you familiar with the Hippocratic oath?

Remember America!
Democrats will allow thousands of YOU to DIE before they’ll waterboard a known terrorist!

Is that a higher level of moral reasoning?
‘Nuf Said!!

2012 – Support EVOLUTION! – Vote Democrats out of power!

UNreasonable lib, patients are seen whether they have insurance or not. The insinuation otherwise is another lie you libbies like to tell.

Ah, Kentucky, what other fine state could’ve given us such a genius like Rand Paul.

Since Rand Paul has now declared himself a slave… I have about 3 acres of cotton that needs picking and a bottle of chicken necks for him to feed on after he’s done. Chop chop, slave

Liberal Tormentor said:
UNreasonable lib, patients are seen whether they have insurance or not. The insinuation otherwise is another lie you libbies like to tell.

There seems to be a contradiction. You and Dr. paul are saying that those services aren’t a right yet at the same time you’re saying that apparently they are because people aren’t turned away. Are you referring to health care or insurance?

And no, they aren’t. If you go to the Cleveland clinic sans insurance they HAVE AND WILL turn you away and send you to Metro. You try staying in the hospital without insurance or when your insurance refuses to pay and see how that goes.

UNreasonable lib, there is a difference in a Dr.’s oath to treat patients and having a RIGHT for it under the constitution.

Liberal Tormentor said:
UNreasonable lib, patients are seen whether they have insurance or not. The insinuation otherwise is another lie you libbies like to tell.

Sure, when they’re bleeding or dying. But not the health care that will help them avoid reaching that point.

This is good: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/01/24/110124fa_fact_gawande

Liberal Tormentor said:
UNreasonable lib, there is a difference in a Dr.’s oath to treat patients and having a RIGHT for it under the constitution.

So you’re wrong and the hospital actually doesn’t have to treat you which they frequently do if you have no insurance. Okay we have that out of the way. Now in what way is it slavery to say “Hey, you can’t just let this person die!” Are you also familiar with good Samaritan laws?

Hey libs, do you think you have a RIGHT to a car? What about a house? College education? A job? Where would you draw the line?

The bottom line is you can’t have A RIGHT to a product or service.

Liberal Tormentor said:
Hey libs, do you think you have a RIGHT to a car? What about a house? College education? A job? Where would you draw the line?

Not only do you refuse to answer a sensible question posed to you, but you then post a straw man. Interesting. I guess you really don’t have anything of substance to speak on.

Your obsession with scarecrows is creepy. Not surprised you don’t want to answer the question.

Tormentor –

Slaves weren’t paid like R Paul is paid. In fact, they weren’t paid at all. Are you really that f’ing dumb?

Paul also insists that American citizens are guaranteed a right to pursue happiness, “but there’s no guarantee of physical comfort.”

Do you libs agree with this statement? Yes or No.

Liberal Tormentor said:
If you read his whole statement, I’m not sure how you’d disagree with that. Well, unless you are a lib who needs the nanny state gov’t to make all of your decisions for you.

As someone who opposes ObamaCare and does not agree that we have a right to healthcare, I actually have to respectfully disagree with you.

I get what he’s trying to say, but I think it’s a misleading comparison. Slaves are forced to perform their duties without their consent. Unless the government forced certain individuals to become doctors without the consent of said individuals, then the decision to become a medical provider would be voluntary, just like other government-funded programs (public schools, the military, etc.). That’s not the same as taking John Doe slave and putting him to work in the fields against his will…

If Republicans want to win more people over to their side of this issue, I think it would be best to come up with arguments that people can relate to better than the one Paul is making here.

We are going to throw that bum Obama out right along with his ObamaCare next November. There’s not a single thing in this world you libs can do to stop us. Try anyway though, it’s not like you bums were doing anything with your crumby lives to begin with.

Liberal Tormentor said:
Your obsession with scarecrows is creepy. Not surprised you don’t want to answer the question.

So your response to my calling out your blatant misrepresentation of the liberal position on health care is that I’m “obsessed with scarecrows”? Furthermore I’m expected to answer your question yet you have not answered mine which was posed first. That’s pretty funny.

Shoulder, I see your point. Perhaps he’s not making his point well. I think he’s referring to people becoming enslaved by the gov’t by giving them too much power over their lives and decisions.

IF the GOP is going to push this no right to healthcare as part of a right to pursue happiness,
THEN they must give Americans THE RIGHT TO DIE (via 99.00 death drug).

The elderly and sick are not going to just wheel themselves out to the trash can and sit there until they die. That would be inhumane.
‘
Therefore if this GOP position can make any sense at all it must come with A RIGHT TO DIE.

I will be the first one in line, and 10s of millions of others will follow. Welcome to GOP America.

Liberal Tormentor said:
Shoulder, I see your point. Perhaps he’s not making his point well. I think he’s referring to people becoming enslaved by the gov’t by giving them too much power over their lives and decisions.

Similar to how you thought Glenn was saying “this is the role government plays in their life” when he ridiculed our president’s children for saying “Daddy did you plug the hole?”?

Liberal Tormentor said:
Shoulder, I see your point. Perhaps he’s not making his point well. I think he’s referring to people becoming enslaved by the gov’t by giving them too much power over their lives and decisions.

If that is his argument, then I think that’s much more reasonable than the comparison to slavery. I’m really just trying to be objective here. There are a lot of good, hard-working people out there who are struggling to keep up with their healthcare costs, and, in my humble opinion, I think they’re more concerned with solutions than rhetoric. For politicians like Paul to succeed in their efforts, I think they’re going to need to keep that in mind going forward.

Shoulder, I have absolutely no problem helping those who can’t help themselves. Unfortunately, that’s not the problem being address. In my opinion, 26 year olds on mommy and daddies insurance is ridiculous. Insuring those who are too lazy to find work is ridiculous.

Rand Paul- are you as stupid as you sound? You obviously believe any garbage that comes out of your mouth should be listened to, but you are, to quote the Montana governor, “just bat-crap crazy”. And I can’t imagine a bunch of patients beating a path to your door, so you don’t have to worry about Health Care Reform in that respect! You surely won’t be too busy.

Rand is right.
If your health care is owned by the government.
That means your health is owned by the government.
And if your health is owned by the government.
That means YOU are owned by the government.
And if YOU are owned by the government.
that makes YOU a slave.

logic.

Can’t argue with that logic, IM.

Paul might have found a better analogy. The direct path to truth here, is that Liberals consider everything as”important” as healthcare, education, energy production, and our economy to only be in the hands of politicians……………the same politicians they curse for being corrupt and inadequate (now, I never said Liberals had any common sense.)

Conservatives, on the other hand. consider healthcare, education, energy production, and our economy entirely too important to be left in the hands of those corrupt and incompetent politicians that Liberals love/hate.

You can vote your preference in November ’12. (Hint: 10% unemployment, skyrocketing gas and food prices, death panels………………………or the opposite)

Ken Long said:
IF the GOP is going to push this no right to healthcare as part of a right to pursue happiness,
THEN they must give Americans THE RIGHT TO DIE (via 99.00 death drug).

The elderly and sick are not going to just wheel themselves out to the trash can and sit there until they die. That would be inhumane.
‘
Therefore if this GOP position can make any sense at all it must come with A RIGHT TO DIE.

I will be the first one in line, and 10s of millions of others will follow. Welcome to GOP America.

Do you really believe that’s a fair analysis though? It sounds like you’re conflating the argument that there is no “right” to healthcare with the argument that people shouldn’t have access to healthcare. Those are two very different arguments. Just because someone doesn’t believe you have a right to something doesn’t mean they believe you shouldn’t have access to it. Personally, I don’t believe that any of us have a right to something that can only be provided to us by another person. If there were no one around to provide the thing that we claim to have a right to, then how could we have a right to it in the first place? However, that doesn’t mean I don’t want people to have access to healthcare. Just because you don’t believe that something is a right, that doesn’t mean you think it shouldn’t be readily available to those who seek it. We may not have a right to education, but that hasn’t lead to the elimination of the public school system, has it?

Liberal Tormentor said:
In my opinion, 26 year olds on mommy and daddies insurance is ridiculous. Insuring those who are too lazy to find work is ridiculous.

If that’s the “compassionate” road you want to go down, then do the math. When these people get injured in car wrecks, disease, job accidents, etc. and have no health care, they are not going to just sit by the trash can and die. (More like city riots will occur) So what’s your plan for this certain occurrence. Obviously it’s giving Americans THE RIGHT TO DIE (via 99.99 death drug) for these catastrophic events.

Then no one is “enslaved” into paying their health costs, and certainly you are not against an American’s freedom to die when they want. So they can’t get fixed and are too broken and suffering to work, they choose to exercise their RIGHT TO DIE. Problem solved. This is the only logical conclusion of this GOP idea. And it applies in the same way to the elderly and sick children of all ages.

So that’s the only logical conclusion for this GOP dream. Sign me up. I will be the first to go, so the super rich (10-millionares – billionares) can enjoy their riches, God love them.

Liberal Tormentor said:
Shoulder, I have absolutely no problem helping those who can’t help themselves. Unfortunately, that’s not the problem being address. In my opinion, 26 year olds on mommy and daddies insurance is ridiculous. Insuring those who are too lazy to find work is ridiculous.

Oh, I don’t disagree with you. If people are consistently unwilling to contribute anything to society, then they have to be willing to accept the consequences of that decision. But the crux of the issue, at least for me, is the mandate. I don’t think it’s constitutional.

Still, I sympathize with those who do work hard and put in their fair share but still can’t afford operation X or medication Y. I’m not sure what the solution is here, but I do strongly believe we need some serious changes. Hard-working, decent people shouldn’t have to choose between their monthly rent and chemo treatments, IMO. At least, not here in this country. We’re too good for that, I believe.

illusive man said:
Rand is right.
If your health care is owned by the government.
That means your health is owned by the government.
And if your health is owned by the government.
That means YOU are owned by the government.
And if YOU are owned by the government.
that makes YOU a slave.

logic.

That’s your logic? Fail. You and your torment supporter completely missed the point. It’s not the patient who’s enslaved. Paul says it’s the doctors, nurses, etc who are enslaved into having to serve you (though they are getting paid. Why would they complain? And no slaves were ever paid.)

Here’s what Paul said —
“It means that you’re going to enslave not only me [as a physician], but the janitor at my hospital, the person who cleans my office, the assistants who work in my office, the nurses. If you have a right to their services, basically, once you imply a belief in a right to someone’s services — do you have a right to plumbing? . . . Do you have a right to beat down my door with the police, escort me away and force me to take care of you? That’s ultimately what the right to free healthcare would be.”

Liberal Tormentor said:
If you read his whole statement, I’m not sure how you’d disagree with that. Well, unless you are a lib who needs the nanny state gov’t to make all of your decisions for you.

Or unless you are a con, directed by your talking points of the day.

Davo said:
Paul might have found a better analogy. The direct path to truth here, is that Liberals consider everything as”important” as healthcare, education, energy production, and our economy to only be in the hands of politicians……………the same politicians they curse for being corrupt and inadequate (now, I never said Liberals had any common sense.) Conservatives, on the other hand. consider healthcare, education, energy production, and our economy entirely too important to be left in the hands of those corrupt and incompetent politicians that Liberals love/hate. You can vote your preference in November ‘12. (Hint: 10% unemployment, skyrocketing gas and food prices, death panels………………………or the opposite)

So much better to have corrupt individuals and companies. Raj Rajaratnam, anyone?
Galleon, anyone?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13188529

Davo said:
Paul might have found a better analogy. The direct path to truth here, is that Liberals consider everything as”important” as healthcare, education, energy production, and our economy to only be in the hands of politicians……………the same politicians they curse for being corrupt and inadequate (now, I never said Liberals had any common sense.) Conservatives, on the other hand. consider healthcare, education, energy production, and our economy entirely too important to be left in the hands of those corrupt and incompetent politicians that Liberals love/hate. You can vote your preference in November ‘12. (Hint: 10% unemployment, skyrocketing gas and food prices, death panels………………………or the opposite)

“Death panels”? Learn before you post:
http://www.scienceprogress.org/2010/11/death-panels-in-arizona/

He’s right. No one has a right to someone elses services or someone elses fruits of labor.
The right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness does not mean you are promised comfort or equal outcomes. It means you are entitled to live your life in the best way you see fit as long as you aren’t violating someone elses liberty.

rand paul right on the money as per usual.

Rightwing/Libertarian ideologues like Rand Paul are basically nuts. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is what’s made America great. However, we’ve gotten stuck because of these rightwing ideologues who think only in black and white. Why is it that nearly every other developed country has some form of universal health care that costs less than half of what we spend and according to all evidence does a much better job in most medical areas. The reason is that these other capitalistic countries have discovered that in order to enjoy the pursuit of happiness you need to have a healthy populace. You can’t have pure capitalism running health care – it doesn’t work. People get exploited, too many people can’t get coverage and it’s too damn expensive. Rand Paul’s antecedents are those whackos who don’t believe the government has the right to tax them for anything. Many rightwingers are alienated from the general populace and are also quite paranoic. It would be great if they could understand that we’re in this all together and that universal health care is an appropriate ‘right’ when you live in a complex modern society. It’s how the rest of the civilized world lives.

ganymede said:
Rightwing/Libertarian ideologues like Rand Paul are basically nuts. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is what’s made America great. However, we’ve gotten stuck because of these rightwing ideologues who think only in black and white. Why is it that nearly every other developed country has some form of universal health care that costs less than half of what we spend and according to all evidence does a much better job in most medical areas. The reason is that these other capitalistic countries have discovered that in order to enjoy the pursuit of happiness you need to have a healthy populace. You can’t have pure capitalism running health care – it doesn’t work. People get exploited, too many people can’t get coverage and it’s too damn expensive. Rand Paul’s antecedents are those whackos who don’t believe the government has the right to tax them for anything. Many rightwingers are alienated from the general populace and are also quite paranoic. It would be great if they could understand that we’re in this all together and that universal health care is an appropriate ‘right’ when you live in a complex modern society. It’s how the rest of the civilized world lives.

what other rights do you have……..food, shelter

Anti-American moonbats are continually finding more and more aspects of human life that MUST be commandeered by politicians, then curse and condemn those politicians for their incompetence, corruption, and self-serving nature. What a miserable live moonbats must lead.

Let’s take healthcare, for instance. Other nations foolish enough to let their politicians confiscate control over such a crucial necessity have found themselves trying to find a way out of their self-made trap. Now, this trap wasn’t DELIBERATELY set, you understand……………it was set by well-meaning Left-wing moonbats who should have been institutionalized for their’s and others’ safety. Instead, those European and Canadian suckers have suffered prolonged illnesses while waiting for medical care that too ofter never came to pass until the victims themselves passed.

Today, citizens in Canada and Europe are fighting to free themselves from the oppressive, unresponsive, and ineffective medical rationing that is inevitable when politicians squander the hard-earned wages confiscated from others, rendering the “entitlements” sold to suckers nothing more than empty promises used to buy votes from the gullible.

BTW, did I mention we have a CHOICE in November ’12? We can choose the above horror that’s already escaped it’s cage via Hussein, Pelosi, and Reid, and their other offspring, 10% unemployment, high gas and food prices, and a world turning away from the US dollar due to those traitors’ penchant for counterfeiting………………….OR we can choose LIBERTY ! ! It’s STILL our choice………………for now.

Being a libertarian doesn’t mean you don’t believe in taxation. It means we believe in a limited government.

Only from a tea-bagger.

Wow. Who would’ve thought the entire western world except the US were practising slavery all this time.

Bit of a shark jump here by the Randy man eh? Sadly, the apple fell from the tree, rolled down a hill, into a ditch where it was washed into a sewer. Congratulations Kentucky, you elected an idiot!

The first black president institutes diabolical, illegal scheme to enslave the ” real ” American ( whites )…..priceless.

welcome– ( www )( chic-goods )( com )

welcome– ( www )( chic-goods )( com )

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The problem with healthcare is not lack of access. Anyone can be treated. The problem is the high (and rising) cost of access due to the many other regulations, laws, restrictions and general meddling our government has engaged in leading up to this mess. The only thing Obama care does is put more cost burden on other people. This doesn’t solve the real problem and will surely only serve to create more. What we need to do is address the actually cost of healthcare by undoing everything that made it complicated to begin with. Tim Pawlenty had a pretty decent op-ed piece on this last year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/11/AR2010021103271.html

And this article kind of puts things in perspective:

http://reason.com/archives/2003/05/28/free-market-health-care

And this hits on a few more points:

http://healthpolicy.stanford.edu/news/wall_street_journal_oped_advocates_freemarket_solution_for_us_health_care_20040506/

Or actual* cost. Dang it.

Obamacare is a fraud, and just another colossal waste via the federal government. There is a reason so many companies, to include many that initially supported it, are asking for waivers. The cost of healthcare has only increased for those that actually pay for it.

More fraud, waste and abuse.

Davo said:
Anti-American moonbats are continually finding more and more aspects of human life that MUST be commandeered by politicians, then curse and condemn those politicians for their incompetence, corruption, and self-serving nature. What a miserable live moonbats must lead. Let’s take healthcare, for instance. Other nations foolish enough to let their politicians confiscate control over such a crucial necessity have found themselves trying to find a way out of their self-made trap. Now, this trap wasn’t DELIBERATELY set, you understand……………it was set by well-meaning Left-wing moonbats who should have been institutionalized for their’s and others’ safety. Instead, those European and Canadian suckers have suffered prolonged illnesses while waiting for medical care that too ofter never came to pass until the victims themselves passed. Today, citizens in Canada and Europe are fighting to free themselves from the oppressive, unresponsive, and ineffective medical rationing that is inevitable when politicians squander the hard-earned wages confiscated from others, rendering the “entitlements” sold to suckers nothing more than empty promises used to buy votes from the gullible. BTW, did I mention we have a CHOICE in November ‘12? We can choose the above horror that’s already escaped it’s cage via Hussein, Pelosi, and Reid, and their other offspring, 10% unemployment, high gas and food prices, and a world turning away from the US dollar due to those traitors’ penchant for counterfeiting………………….OR we can choose LIBERTY ! ! It’s STILL our choice………………for now.

Ran away from the “death panels” this time?

Eric Cunningham said:
Just like all our police slaves and military slaves and government employee slaves.

A policeman volunteers to serve — no one forces him to do that job, and he is free to take his services somewhere else.

A soldier, sailor, or airman volunteers to serve. He knows what the pay is, before he enlists or is commissioned, and he knows the risks. The draft is gone, conscription is gone. He can resign or simply leave the service at the end of his enlistment, and then do something else.

A doctor goes through many years of training, accumulating many debts, in hopes that eventually he’ll earn enough to repay his loans and provide for his family. Then along comes government-controlled health laws that control who he can treat, how much he can charge, ultimately what kind of medicine he can practice and even where he can set up a practice.

I think Rand Paul used the wrong terminology, however. Instead of slavery, it would be more accurate to use the term “indentured servitude”. Doctors cannot be bought or sold. But they can be forced to do what the government tells them to do, for a wage set by the government, and they can only escape the system by fleeing to another country. I guess they can decide to quit being doctors, and do something else instead, and presumably many of them will, and others will change their career plans and decide to study something else besides medicine.

Mas Liberty5 said:
Obamacare is a fraud, and just another colossal waste via the federal government. There is a reason so many companies, to include many that initially supported it, are asking for waivers. The cost of healthcare has only increased for those that actually pay for it.

More fraud, waste and abuse.

Rand Paul is a lunatic and fraud as is your pathetic commentary on Obamacare. C’mon nit wit, get with the program and stop regurgitating the far right fringe talking points\.

I don’t think there were any slaves receiving ANY pay for their services. Paul’s trivializing of the term slave is exactly what I’d expect from someone who believes that the 1964 Civil Rights act went too far.

White people who compare themselves to under represented, underclass minorities are simply saying that they don’t believe in the reality fo race in America.

J Baustian said:
A policeman volunteers to serve — no one forces him to do that job, and he is free to take his services somewhere else.

A soldier, sailor, or airman volunteers to serve. He knows what the pay is, before he enlists or is commissioned, and he knows the risks. The draft is gone, conscription is gone. He can resign or simply leave the service at the end of his enlistment, and then do something else.

A doctor goes through many years of training, accumulating many debts, in hopes that eventually he’ll earn enough to repay his loans and provide for his family. Then along comes government-controlled health laws that control who he can treat, how much he can charge, ultimately what kind of medicine he can practice and even where he can set up a practice.

I think Rand Paul used the wrong terminology, however. Instead of slavery, it would be more accurate to use the term “indentured servitude”. Doctors cannot be bought or sold. But they can be forced to do what the government tells them to do, for a wage set by the government, and they can only escape the system by fleeing to another country. I guess they can decide to quit being doctors, and do something else instead, and presumably many of them will, and others will change their career plans and decide to study something else besides medicine.

The nurse who cares for the doctor’s patient spends years in school and in training, too. They have set salaries. Airline pilots get paid less than doctors, get paid a salary, and are responsible for hundreds of lives at a time. In 2008, the average income for a primary care physician was #165K. For a specialist, like Dr. Paul, it was $340K.
Servitude, my @ss.

Mas Liberty5 said:
Obamacare is a fraud, and just another colossal waste via the federal government. There is a reason so many companies, to include many that initially supported it, are asking for waivers. The cost of healthcare has only increased for those that actually pay for it.

More fraud, waste and abuse.

Actually ObamaCare, just like everything else Obama has attempted to implement ( against our will ) or take away from us ” real ” American people is the direct result of the first black president of the United States of America’s misguided agenda of instituting 21st century ‘ slavery reparations ‘.

Randy Rand (aka Spunk Hair) is as stupid as he looks.

jim bronson 990cc said:
Ran away from the “death panels” this time?

Nope. Just showed a new crime against America. You Dims feel better if we call “death panels” something else? You can call it a giraffe if you like when government bureaucrats determine whether a patient is worthy of life-saving treatment or sentenced to die. But “death panels” is more appropriate.

The term “death panels” was coined by Sarah Palin, the first to point out their inclusion in Hussein’s CommieCare. After she shined the light of truth into the darkness of Obama’s scheme, he had it removed only to be re-instated in the darkness of night, stabbing Americans in the back while we slept.

Maybe you don’t like the term, “death panels”…………………I wouldn’t either if I chose to support an evil party above my nation and fellow citizens. But we make our own choices, right bronson?