I served in iraq and the average person doesnt truly value it more than a bumper sticker. and lets not kid ourselves the benefits are found for other demographics- so theres no set aside of what a service member does. and if you look at the post 911 gi bill, its just a pacifier and a shifting of funds and regs that amount to the original gi bill.
Who
says its gotta be so hard; only one percent of America actually serves
in the military- who are they to set the bar so high? they never did
anything themselves.i hate when someone who hasnt
dont something , sets the standard pass something they themselves never
did. ” you gotta prove to me” as if the status they reached had some
grueling threshold- when all they did was wake up,born in america

im talking about the 99% ( not the wall street 99%) the non-service, who are they to even speak of service to prove something?

Because I am not a liberal, I do not see the big deal here.  I think an illegal immigrant, who has proven their loyalty and commitment to this country by serving should be fast tracked to citizenship.  It’s not conscription, as they don’t have to join, they can certainly stay here and risk being deported.. OR GO BACK TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY!    We hear from you libs how they all really want to be Americans (while waving Mexican flags, and getting upset at kids who wear American Flags to school) so here is their chance to put their money where their mouth is.  I know I know, they should automatically get full citizenship if they just happen to sneak in here.   This conscription argument is a joke.  

Here is a lecture delivered to a college class by Albert Bartlett a physicist who has previously been called upon by congress to deliver this presentation before committee.  It just might cause one to think a little bit about population, immigration, and energy, for me it was a powerful presentation and eye opening, maybe because I love math…  I offer no opinion on what Dr. Bartlett has to say in his presentation, but the math is relatively straight forward and what the simple math has to say about the issues we face as a society is simply shocking and if true we don’t have much time before we will be facing real problems as a nation and a society.  Well worth the time to watch the 8 segments.  It is enough to cause one to reflect on many of the positions which he or she may hold. My reason for attaching it to this thread is because of the part of his presentation addresses immigration. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SP6A1FD147A45EF50D 

Here is a lecture delivered to a college class by Albert Bartlett a physicist who has previously been called upon by congress to deliver this presentation before committee.  It just might cause one to think a little bit about population, immigration, and energy, for me it was a powerful presentation and eye opening, maybe because I love math…  I offer no opinion on what Dr. Bartlett has to say in his presentation, but the math is relatively straight forward and what the simple math has to say about the issues we face as a society is simply shocking and if true we don’t have much time before we will be facing real problems as a nation and a society.  Well worth the time to watch the 8 segments.  It is enough to cause one to reflect on many of the positions which he or she may hold. My reason for attaching it to this thread is because of the part of his presentation addresses immigration. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SP6A1FD147A45EF50D 

As I mentioned in the piece, requiring for citizenship something that citizens aren’t forced to do is disingenuous and absurd. 

You assume that it is a requirement for citizenship when it is not, it is positioned by Gingrich as a requirement to bypass existing immigration laws and policy…  It is your position that is disingenuous and absurd, that US citizenship is a right to foreign nationals that should be afforded to any who would cross our borders illegally.  How about secure the borders and then come back to DC and write immigration laws that the country can live with and enforce.  Is that to much to ask of our government? Why is it that the US is the only country in the world that you feel should have open borders?  Immigration laws are not unique to the United States, how is it that it is absurd that there does exist in this country an expectation of among at least some of our citizens for there to be enforceable laws and respect for those laws?

It’s not an assumption. It’s a mandatory piece of the plan Gingrich endorsed. He has said that repeatedly and that has been reported as well. I never said citizenship was a right. I suggest you reread the comments that I’ve posted here as well as the article, because you’re sorely misinformed. 

And just what is his plan for?  Is it not “akin to the Dream Act”. 

When I state that you are making an assumption I am eluding to the slant of your article, the tone of your article suggests rights that these people do not have, rights that maybe you would like to see them have but they actually do not have. You go on to make the assertion that Newt is conscripting them into military service, and this is simply not true, should these folks choose not to serve they still have the option to seek legal status or citizenship in this country under existing laws, or they can eventually return to the country of their origin, but if they serve then they are able to bypass other immigration requirements, not quite the same as conscription as they do have a choice. How is it that they deserve special consideration over the 100′s of thousands of people trying to immigrate legally, why are they more important than those who have respected our laws and are already waiting in line?

That’s correct. But where do I say that he is trying to change all of immigration law? The article is simply about Gingrich’s faux DREAM Act and why it’s a bad idea. So yes, I do point out why I think it’s a poor idea. I understand immigrants will have options outside of Newt’s faux DREAM Act, however I believe it is disingenuous because it asks immigrants to do what citizens are no longer asked to do — serve their country in a mandatory fashion. 

The difference between those eligible for the DREAM Act and the rest of folks not yet here is that they were raised here. To qualify for the DREAM Act you have to have lived in the states for a certain amount of time and been brought here as a child. 

There’s a big difference between wanting to come here and struggling to do so and being raised here as an undocumented immigrant. In one case you have a choice, and in the other you have none. You’re already here. 

Additionally, even the GOP believes that those undocumented immigrants who are already here and were raised here should be treated differently than those not yet here. You have to find a way to distinguish so you can solve the undocumented immigration problem. Treating them all the same leaves you with too few solutions. 

Is he suggesting mandating service for illegal immigrants, or is he offering that as a path to citizenship that one can choose? If it’s the latter, that wouldn’t be a terribly new thing. http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/milcitizens.htm

That would just change existing practice to allow undocumented that which we already allow the documented and some foreigners. For instance, we’ve got a lot of Filipino-Americans who became Americans after joining the Navy while living in the Phillipines. http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/filipinos.htm

I don’t see how we’d have room for everyone in the service to mandate that they all join.

Reading the piece at The Hill, this appears to be a voluntary thing, and as such, I have no problem whatsoever with it. This is not conscription.

Well, a couple of things, maybe because of my own bias I made the mistake of reading things into your article that are not actually there. Having said that I think that it is safe to say that if the Dream Act were to pass that it would be distorted to give status to a much broader group than just those brought here as small children and have subsequently grown up here. That is at least my opinion as it has been my experience that on any piece of legislation as controversial as the Dream Act it hardly ever ends up being what was advertised before passage.

IMO no immigration reform should occur until such time as our borders have been secured, Reagan conceded to immigration reform only to not be supported in the promise of border security… Some problems when broken down just have some logical order to the steps one would take to correct them. We have long had issues with the border that we have failed to address so it would make some sense to start there.

I am not against immigration, my wife immigrated from Venezuela. I think that over the last several years a strong case has been made that segments of corporate america have done much to support a weak border and illegal immigration as they exploited cheap labor. I just think that the issue should be fixed and laws written that we can all live with and that our government will enforce. If the dream act simply says that an illegal immigrant can attend a couple of semesters in a junior college to obtain citizenship then I don’t see how that is an answer to anything other than granting status to these people. It certainly does not address the illegal immigration problem, but would only serve to provide more incentive for people to cross the border illegally.

Maybe there should be more criteria and these cases evaluated on an individual basis, but without comprehensive immigration reforms then personally I would be hesitant to support any legislation which only partially addresses the immigration problem.

But I do support an accelerated program for those who serve in our military, this has been around for years even before president Obama’s program, there is a significant percentage of our military which is comprised of foreign nationals…. if they are willing to serve then they should be given special status in the immigration process, but like you said, conscription is never good, but those that choose this path do so as they believe in this country, often moreso than those who are born into citizenship, their service should be rewarded.

Pablo, his DREAM Act plan makes military service mandatory. Not sure why this is getting confusing. I’m not talking about all of immigration law in this article. I’m talking strictly about Newt’s plan.

Is there a plan of his separate from Rivera’s bill? Because there’s nothing mandatory about Rivera’s bill.

His own bill doesn’t ensure automatic residency, Rivera said. Applicants would need to meet a set of preliminary criteria to be considered for
the program, and once accepted, demonstrate good moral conduct and a record of service in the United States military to then be eligible for legal status.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/01/rivera-introduces-a-military-only-version-of-the-dream-act-.html#storylink=cpy

Forcing people who don’t want to join the military is dumb enough. Forcing people who are not Americans to join the military would be profoundly stupid. I just don’t see where that’s being suggested here.

Chickenhawk Newt With A Cowardly Soul

A draft-dodging chickenhawk named Newt
Went to great lengths not to be a recruit
When his last deferment was filed
With his teacher, he sired a child
And gave the military a middle-fingered salute.

As soon as the Viet Nam war was done
Newt’s political career had begun
The way he carried on
You’d think he was Gengis Khan
‘Cause he voted for any war they could fund.

That’s how it is with political trolls
In a fight, they’re hiding in holes
Newt, Cheney, and Limbaugh
Can’t get enough shock n awe
But they $h!+ themselves with cowardly souls!
_____________________
Charles Ulysses Feney

Pablo, let’s start over. 

1) This article is about Rivera’s bill, which you’ve linked to, and how Gingrich supports it. 

2) This bill is a variation of the DREAM Act and would make military service compulsory. So if you were an undocumented immigrant living in the US chances are the only path to citizenship for you would be the (original) DREAM Act or the faux Dream Act. 

3)Undocumented immigrants living in this country usually don’t have a sponsor, hence their continued undocumented status. The DREAM Act was created as an option for these people to have a path to citizenship. (Nowhere in the article do I assert Gingrich or Rivera is changing anything but the DREAM Act.)

4) Rivera’s bill requires compulsory military service in order for undocumented immigrants to use it. I find that absurd. That’s the only point I’m making in this article. 

The biggest takeaway is that undocumented immigrants living here have no way path to citizenship. In order to get a green card (permanent residency) you need a sponsor. In order to get a temporary visa, it’s required that you have entered the country under legal premises. 

2) This bill is a variation of the DREAM Act and would make military service compulsory.

John, where do you see that in Rivera’s bill? Unfortunately, Thomas.gov doesn’t permalink, but you can find it there. It’s H.R.3823
or the Adjusted Residency for Military Service Act.

I fail to find anything in it that suggests conscription. This bill is completely voluntary. It presents a path to citizenship, but it does not compel anyone to military service from my read of it. If you’ve found something different in it, I’d be obliged to know what that is.

Are you kidding?

Of course it’s totally fair!

Illegals are not entitled to the same privileges as legal citizens!

So if they can’t apply legally, join the military… be willing to die for the US… then become a citizen. Total respect.

What is “perverse” is this writer’s inability to understand that there is no equality between illegals and citizens.

Illegals aren’t entitled to anything.

Why should we ask more of illegals than of our own citizens? Because they are, in the context of people living in the US, LESSER THAN CITIZENS.

So if they want something, then yes, they need to go the extra length.

US citizens are born with perks in the US that illegals are not.

If illegals don’t like it, go back home.

Otherwise, do the things that are necessary to compensate for the “lesser than” status that comes with being illegal.

Either apply legally… or fight for the country.

It’s quite simple.

They aren’t citizens!! So they need to do something to become citizens. By your (lack of ) reasoning, they shouldn’t even have to apply to become citizens since citizens don’t have to apply either!

The issue is, if they want to find another way to become citizens, aside from going through the traditional legal wait-and-see process, then they can join the military and prove their allegiance to the US.

If they don’t want to do this, that’s fine. It’s their choice. They should just go home!

I hate when bad writers say things like it’s “disingenuous” and “absurd” as if it’s self-evident.

What’s absurd is the idea that somehow illegals are entitled to the same rights as citizens.

They aren’t.

In your comments, you (the writer) say: “There’s a big difference between wanting to come here and struggling to
do so and being raised here as an undocumented immigrant.”

That’s the flaw in your reasoning.

There is NO difference except that the ones raised here as undocumented immigrants are WORSE than the ones who have yet to come here. They have sponged off a society they did not have any right to sponge off of. It may have been their parents’ fault for bringing them here, but that’s not the US society’s problem. They should blame their parents then.

Go back to the end of the line (like the immigrants who dream of coming here), or fight for the country.

They’re actually getting a short-cut.

They’re not entitled to anything more.

RIGHT. Undocumented immigrants should have NO path to citizenship that’s any different from outsiders who hope to come to the US. They already got plenty of perks, growing up here.

They need to go back to the end of the line.

They aren’t entitled to anything more.

And btw, the GOP does not support their being treated differently.

As Romney says, take all the job possibilities away, they will have to go elsewhere then to live.

It’s sad, but it’s fair.

OR they can join the military. That’s their out.

Hope you to be a good people  of warmth, sincere , well-educated , would like to look for lover and family, common Share happiness of future life.

Newt Gingrich, who is never above pandering or
slandering, claims he now supports a plan akin to the DREAM Act, which
died in Congress last year. While the original DREAM Act sought to
provide a way for undocumented young immigrants to have a pathway to
citizenship, Gingrich supports a faux DREAM Act that would do so by
mandating military service.

This, from an apparently new writer here, is supposed to pass for “credible”?

“College enrollment” was on the original act (did you know that?) and rendered it as virtual amnesty, which is why it went nowhere.
- and there’s no mandate for military service, it’s a pre-requisite to the citizenry path.

“Serving in the military is one of the highest levels of
service a citizen can perform”.

Newt.

Unless of course you are Newt.  When asked about his deferments his enlightened
response was

‘Oh I don’t think one person could have made
a difference.’

I’m sure every person who lost a loved one in
war can take comfort in those words.

Does this guy have and shame?  Between his family values BS and his new
found love for the military it is a wonder that even the most rabbit partisan
can stand to look at him.

i alway been against theDREAM ACT writen by sen Dick Durbin of Illinois so he can get thier votes in later electioons,Newt Gingrich is  for comptrhensive immigration thatt means amnesty for illegals.illegals are a big drag on our economy!

These are illegals or people that want to become Americans, so they can show how much they want to become Americans by serving in the military!  If not, then they only want the status of being an American but don’t want to sacrifice anything, so these people should be kicked out!  I served under Presidents Nixon thru Reagan, yes, I became disabled serving, but that is the chance you take for your country.  If immigrants don’t want to serve in the military, then they don’t need to become Americans!  Also, no Islamic people should be allowed in the military or to migrate to America, period!

No, it’s not disingenuous and absurd.  Your pathetic attempt at journalism is.  Citizens who are born here are entitled to be here….they donnt need to prove anything.  If you want to come to our country from out side, we CAN and SHOULD demand more of you.  Make them earn the privilege.  I dont think you value your citizenship.  Youre a disgrace.