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Rep. Allen West Tries On Feminism: ‘It Is Spartan Women Who Raise Spartan Men’

by Frances Martel | 2:10 pm, April 23rd, 2011

» 109 comments

21st century feminism is a difficult thing. With women at the forefront of politics and closer to equal footing than they were decades ago, pointing out gender for gender’s sake without coming off as misogynistic has becoming fairly difficult. But here’s a vivid example of how not to be a feminist. In a speech this week, GOP Rep. Allen West encouraged women to follow the “Spartan” model: “it is Spartan women who raise Spartan men.”

Rep. West, a Republican and Tea Party darling, most recently made a splash in the headlines for calling President Obama a “low-level socialist agitator” and “third-world dictator.” He has made his name on saying bold things that rile up the right-wing base because they boldly echo sentiments that other attempt to articulate with some nuance. He didn’t seem to be out to make any bold statements at a Women Impacting Nation conference he attended this week, however, but instead simply meant to encourage the women there to get involved in the political process. The Right Scoop has the relevant part of the speech, praising Rep. West for speaking without fear of being misconstrued as a misogynist:

But when you understood what made the Spartan men strong, it was the Spartan women. Because the Spartan women at the age of nine gave up their male sons. And their male sons went into a training that was called the Agoge and they stayed in that training for the next eleven to twelve years. And when they were finally qualified, when they were finally ready to join the ranks for the Spartan army, it was not their father who gave them their cloak and shield. It was their mother who gave them their shield. And when the Spartan mother gave that young Spartan warrior his shield, she gave him this basic commandment: “Spartan, here is your shield. Come back bearing this shield or being borne upon it!”

When Queen Gorgo, wife of King Leonidas, was questioned by the Persian emissary and she somewhat spoke out of turn to this Persian emissary, he tried to rebuke her. And she looked at him and said “Persian, beware, for it is Spartan women who raise Spartan men.”

I hate to go all Simone De Beauvoir on what was clearly intended to be an uplifting, feminist statement, but this speech dog-whistles so many of gender-orthodoxy talking points that they are worth addressing individually. No, chances are Rep. West is not a misogynist, nor did he intend to imply any gender-based superiority. He may not even realize how what he suggests promotes a status quo that undervalues women. But several implications here certainly further the latter.

Spartan women were progressive for their era. They were trained as soldiers– though never saw battle– because the Spartans believed that only a healthy, battle-ready womb could engender the best of warriors. Given their record against the Athenians, who were too busy waxing philosophic to bother paying any attention to the ladies, they were probably right. But ultimately, Spartan society existed for the benefit of the male. He was considered the centerpiece of culture, and women only received the “benefits” of battle training because it was impossible for Sparta to have the best soldiers without them. Women did not have any inherent value.

Return to 2011 A.D. and, suddenly, what was progressive for 430 B.C. doesn’t feel quite as applicable. Applying Spartan values to today’s society, women would not be able to participate in the military– or politics. Sarah Palin wouldn’t be allowed to speak, though she would be learned in politics– but only in order for her to raise more learned male children. The adage “it is the Spartan women who raise Spartan men” encourages a society where women are but peripheral to the advancement of men, not a society where women are an end to themselves. Rep. West probably wants the “Spartan” women of American to participate in the political process as much as men do, because following his statements to their logical conclusion that women must train themselves for the good of men would be perfectly unfair when he said these words in a feminist conference he chose to attend. But the argument still stands.

This claim, however, is more theory than practice. In practice, Rep. West’s words propose that the paradigm of mother as caretaker and father as breadwinner be taken at face value. Strong women are to raise strong men– strong women are not just to be, the way strong men are. Nowhere does Rep. West note that it is Spartan men who raise Spartan women; of course they didn’t. But it is (or at least should be) the American man who raises the American woman, at least as much as the reverse is true.

The importance of that last bit is impossible to exaggerate in a society like America’s that sees so many children grow up in fatherless homes. There is no “deadbeat mom” epidemic in America– encouraging women to raise their children does nothing but implicitly excuse men who refuse to participate in their children’s upbringing, because that’s a woman’s job. That the woman should be self-sufficient to do so expressly for the benefit of the male son does not excuse males from not participating. What’s more, women do not, by and large, need encouragement in being strong mothers the way many men need to be told that being a man is being a father. They need encouragement in being strong human beings who finish their studies and rise in their companies’ ranks for their own benefit, and not for the benefit of fathers, husbands, or sons.

West’s statements below:

Allen West, Feminism, Florida, Republicans, Sparta, Tea Party

http://activitypit.ning.com/profile/massmurdermedia MASSMURDERMEDIA

where’s the outrage?… wait for it… wait for it… there it is… there’s the outrage…
BruceGoose

Floridians! Ready your breakfast and eat hearty… For tonight, we dine at Rocco’s Tacos & Tequila Bar!!!
Harry Flashman

Frances:

Whiile you chase your own tail rhetorically in much of your article, you make some good points, the best of which is this:

“There is no “deadbeat mom” epidemic in America– encouraging women to raise their children does nothing but implicitly excuse men who refuse to participate in their children’s upbringing, because that’s a woman’s job.”

Point well taken. And point completely missed by most of the left’s talking heads. I suspect your support of the right’s family values points may have been inadvertant, but support them you did, and strongly.

The Democrat’s cradle-to-grave welfare philosophy has done crushing harm to the family, especially the poor and black family. That syatem enables “deadbeat dads” as well as professional welfare mothers.

Altogether a nice article, though, even though I think you may have over analyzed West’s comments about Spartan women.
SilenceDogood

He obviously was not asking for a literal return to the days of Spartan women…. he was just using that to make a point about how newer generations tending to be raised “softer” than previous ones. Whoever this Martel is kinda missed the point pretty badly. Allen West also said Obama is displaying “3rd World Dictator-like arrogance,” which is still a strong statement, but far different than calling him an actual 3rd world dictator.
Nacho

Says the baby killer…
Harry Flashman

Nacho said:

“Says the baby killer…”

Funny how the left, with their vociferous support of abortion, can call anyone baby killers.

Isn’t it?
BeckFinallyDemoted

Why is this guy getting so much attention?

1 – Because he’s a Black Republican

2 – Because he’s a teabagger

3 – Because he’s obnoxious and rude

4 – All of the above
Frances Martel

Harry Flashman said:
Frances:

Point well taken. And point completely missed by most of the left’s talking heads. I suspect your support of the right’s family values points may have been inadvertant, but support them you did, and strongly.

Not inadvertent at all– I believe in the strength of the family, I just think it weakens the family when you put most of the burden of raising the child on the mother. Chalk it up to being a daddy’s girl if you’d like, but I think males should participate in equal measure in the raising of a child, and the implication that the mom must improve herself solely for the benefit of the male child is problematic.
http://www.facebook.com/people/David-Patriot-Lambertsen/1422790654 David Patriot Lambertsen

Allan West is clearly a student of history and may well be today’s George S. Patton. I like his refreshing honesty especially when it comes to Islam.
Ajolily

Frances Martel said:
Not inadvertent at all– I believe in the strength of the family, I just think it weakens the family when you put most of the burden of raising the child on the mother. Chalk it up to being a daddy’s girl if you’d like, but I think males should participate in equal measure in the raising of a child, and the implication that the mom must improve herself solely for the benefit of the male child is problematic.

You are right but the thing is West didn’t say that a womans only role is to raise children nor that men should not be involved, he only said it takes strong woman to raise strong men and therefore we need strong woman. Pretty simple point.
WCinWI

Much of the reason why current females aged 25 or so seek relationships with men 32-35 or so is based on the notion that younger males of current generation cycles don’t possess the same “I need to find a job that will support my family” type of mentality.

I don’t mind a metrosexual male, but I’d also like him to be strong and manly too. Sometimes mothers need to step up and say that it’s not ok for their son to live at home. How else is he going to learn?
Who is Salacious Crumb

David Patriot Lambertsen said:
Allan West is clearly a student of history

Or he saw 300.
Chudi

Frances,

Are you black? I ask this as a black man. When i was reading this except you posted here, I got chills. The reason I got chills is that 70% of black kids born in this country are born to black single moms. Yes, he was probably speaking to all women, but I know where he was coming from. We have a big problem, and we have to break this cycle.

Do you think that the man of character that Allen is talking about in his speech will go up and abandon his family? Do you think he will go around impregnating women and leave them without taking care of his kids? We have a problem, and it is because people like you have made it OK for people not to take responsibility for their families.

The statistics i told you before means that many young black men are being raised by single moms. If we follow the vision he outlined in this speech…maybe we will break that cycle.

Next time before you write a big thesis, why don’t you think first…
Ajolily

Chudi you are so right to say “Do you think that the man of character that Allen is talking about in his speech will go up and abandon his family? Do you think he will go around impregnating women and leave them without taking care of his kids?” That is what is missing in Frances understanding of what West was saying. As for leaving the role of the fathers out of his speech it may have been because he was at a womans event don’t you think.
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

Chudi said:
Frances,

Are you black? I ask this as a black man. When i was reading this except you posted here, I got chills. The reason I got chills is that 70% of black kids born in this country are born to black single moms. Yes, he was probably speaking to all women, but I know where he was coming from. We have a big problem, and we have to break this cycle.

Do you think that the man of character that Allen is talking about in his speech will go up and abandon his family? Do you think he will go around impregnating women and leave them without taking care of his kids? We have a problem, and it is because people like you have made it OK for people not to take responsibility for their families.

The statistics i told you before means that many young black men are being raised by single moms. If we follow the vision he outlined in this speech…maybe we will break that cycle.

Next time before you write a big thesis, why don’t you think first…

I’m a Black man, too.

No…Allen West just tortures people, doesn’t pay his debts, and hangs out with a biker gang called the “Outlaws”.

Great role model, huh?

–Cobra
mamaearth

From the first day I heard Col. Allen West, while running for office in Florida, I thought to myself…”one day this man WILL be president!

I have never been more impressed with a candidate, as I am with this “hero among men!”

I hope that day comes in January 2013!
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

Garth said:
Funny, I thought he was an escapee from the mental ward. Nothing has changed my mind.

PS – He will never be president of anything.

LOL!! You’re so right. Every few years you get the “Great Black Hope of the GOP”…from JC Watts, to Colin Powell, to Condi Rice, to Alan Keyes, Hermain Cain…and now Allen West. They either never run for President, or do horribly in the polls.

–Cobra
Ajolily

mamaearth said:
From the first day I heard Col. Allen West, while running for office in Florida, I thought to myself…”one day this man WILL be president! I have never been more impressed with a candidate, as I am with this “hero among men!” I hope that day comes in January 2013!

The more I learn the more I like.

Garth said:
Funny, I thought he was an escapee from the mental ward. Nothing has changed my mind. PS – He will never be president of anything.

The fact you don’t like him is a big plus for him.
Chudi

Cobra said:
I’m a Black man, too.

No…Allen West just tortures people, doesn’t pay his debts, and hangs out with a biker gang called the “Outlaws”.

Great role model, huh?

–Cobra

Yes, he is a great role model. He is retired Lt. Col, who is a member of the house. That is a great role model to me. I wonder who urs are…Tupac, Snoop, or is it Al Sharpton and Jesse. Oh I forgot, it’s the messiah…Yes. Those are the people who tell you that it is the white man’s fault right?. Until liberals stop making it acceptable for young black men to misbehave and impregnate women without taking responsibility, we will never progress as a community.

I know it is cool to blame the white man, or the rich. This is the mess that black leaders have been selling for a long time. There are a ton of opportunities out there for black men to progress, but no…it is the white man that is holding you down. Allen is preaching personal responsibility, and i strongly agree with him. That is why I can never be a liberal, and I don’t take Al sharpton, jesse and the so-called black leaders seriously. They are just race hustlers, who are using poor black people to make money.

I hope black women will pay attention to what Allen said in that video, cus this community is going to hell. A community where 70% of kids are born to single moms…is not going to be an upwardly mobile society. You can drink all the koolaid you want, but we both know the truth.
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

Chudi said:
Yes, he is a great role model. He is retired Lt. Col, who is a member of the house. That is a great role model to me. I wonder who urs are…Tupac, Snoop, or is it Al Sharpton and Jesse. Oh I forgot, it’s the messiah…Yes. Those are the people who tell you that it is the white man’s fault right?. Until liberals stop making it acceptable for young black men to misbehave and impregnate women without taking responsibility, we will never progress as a community.”

First of all, West was FORCED into retirement from the military, remember?

“The commanding general of the 4th Infantry Division on Friday accepted a U.S. military investigator’s recommendation and ordered administrative action against Lt. Col. Allen West, who was accused of using improper methods to force information out of an Iraqi detainee.

Following a military hearing, West was fined $5,000 over two months, according to West’s civillian attorney, Neal Puckett.

The punishment does not affect West’s eligibility for retirement and pension, Puckett said in a statement.

West, 42, will be assigned to the rear detachment of the 4th Infantry Division awaiting the processing of his retirement request, the statement said.”
http://articles.cnn.com/2003-12-12/us/sprj.nirq.west.ruling_1_allen-west-iraqi-detainee-military-justice?_s=PM:US

That was because West was found to have TORTURED an Iraqi policeman his unit had detained and interrogated. That’s one of the two things West was most famous for before his 2010 campaign. The other being that West called the FBI because he was afraid that a reporter for Al Jazeera was going to kidnap him in 2008.
http://gawker.com/#!5029841/politician-figured-al-jazeera-reporter-was-kidnapper

West hired a motorcycle gang called the Outlaws as “personal security”, and has tax liens against him, and credit card judgements, yet THIS is the guy you want to hold up as a “roll model” for young Black men?

Of course you do, Chudi. West is a RIGHT WINGED Republican. That’s all that matters to you. I use the modifier “right winged” because I feel Colin Powell, who was a far HIGHER RANKING African-American, is a far superior role model than West could ever dream of being, but since he’s been speaking off the RNC script lately, he’s apparently disqualified in your mind.
The other one you didn’t even mention by name, because you KNOW President Barack Obama is light years ahead of ‘West as a role model for kids of all races. Obama had a single mother, and raised poor with the help of grandparents. He studied hard, took advantage of the opportunities available to him, got an Ivy League education, stayed out of trouble, delayed gratification, married, had children and ambitiously climbed the ladder to become the leader of the free world. His story is the ultimate Horatio Alger story, and it’s so inconvenient to many conservatives they have to invent nonsense conspiracy theories and wholesale racism to tear Obama down.

That’s why you only mention “rappers” as the ONLY possible alternative, or Sharpton, because that’s the only “black leader” Fox News likes to have on in Prime Time.

Chudi said:
That is why I can never be a liberal, and I don’t take Al sharpton, jesse and the so-called black leaders seriously. They are just race hustlers, who are using poor black people to make money.

See what I mean? You’re completely OBLIVIOUS to Black ELECTED officials..people like Gov. Deval Patrick in MA. or Mayor Corey Booker of Newark, NJ. You don’t want to talk about any of the three dozen members of the Congressional Black Caucus, or Black CEO’s involved in the Urban League. You’re spouting the same anti-black, right winged, Koch-Brothers-Think-Tank-approved talking points that I could find on Stormfront or Aryan Nation websites, yet you claim “we want to progress as a community?”

Chudi PLEASE.

Chudi said:
I hope black women will pay attention to what Allen said in that video, cus this community is going to hell. A community where 70% of kids are born to single moms…is not going to be an upwardly mobile society. You can drink all the koolaid you want, but we both know the truth.

Brother, turn off FOX NEWS, and read some facts on the subject. As with most of the anti-black, right winged think tank propaganda, you won’t delve into the deeper reasons for Black illegitimacy rates. There are disproportionate illegitimacy rates for Blacks (70%) versus Whites (22%…oh—white women have sex too, Chudi) because of the societal conditions that stack up disproportionately AGAINST BLACKS.
Take hyper-segregation, outsource labor from cities, in-source drugs (no, there aren’t any poppy fields or coca farms in the ghetto, Chudi), enforce a “War on Drugs” to incarcerate mainly Black men, making them incapable of getting a job or raising a family with a felony record, and HELLO! You’ve got a higher illegitimate birth rate.
I say this with confidence, because you can see the WHITE ILLEGITIMATE birth rate is soaring right now due to some of the same ingredients, particularly the loss of jobs you can raise a family on. You’re not arguing eugenics, so the same rules apply to Whites…Romance without finance is a nuisance.

But let’s talk about this out in the open, Chudi. One brother to another on Mediaite. Show me you have the courage of your convictions.

–Cobra
Chudi

Hey moron,

the reason I didn’t mention Colin Powell is because we are talking about West. Yes, i mentioned ur messiah, but i disqualify him because he doesn’t tell black people the truth. He only says it when it suits him for purposes of re-election. I remember when i used to think the man was worth anything, when he went before the a black group, i forget which one now, and talked about absent black fathers and how we need to take care of our families. That was when i thought he was worth something, now I realize that was a bait and switch so that white people could see him, and think he was independent and beholden to the black orthodoxy. He got into office, and became just like Sharpton and jesse.

Lt. West did what he did to save his men. He has explained his actions and I BELIEVE him. He had a group of young men, who he promised their moms that he would do all in his power to bring home safely. The terrorists in iraq were not playing by Geneva convention standards. He had to adapt. He did what he did, and he knew he would be punished, but he did it anyway. He traded in his badge to save the life of his men. That is character. That is a lot more than I can say for Obama, ur messiah. He has no character…he disowns anybody if he feels they will get in his way of power.

What happened to his reverend…he is under the bus. What of his white grand mother…under the bus. Bill Ayers…under the bus. What of the people in his administration…under the bus, What of the green jobs czar…under the bus. I can go on, but you get the idea. He has no character. West wouldn’t even disown his motorcycle club. They are not a gang by the way. He wouldn’t disown them.

Yes he has tax liens against him…boo hoo. He’s human. I do’t know the details of some of those things..so i won’t go into detail, but he was in the army. He wasn’t being paid that much. Maybe he was away on duty when those things were filed. Maybe his family didn’t pay bills on time…he however fought for this country. That is way more than i can say for ur messiah. What of ur messiah…remember how he had to go pay all those tickets in Cambridge?

and now you tell me about Deval Patrick…lol. I live in Boston. I know Deval Patrick. This is the guy who was elected to office, and the first thing he did was spend hundreds of thousands of state funds redecorating his office. After that, he then used state funds to buy a new cadillac. Trust me, don’t get me started on Deval Patrick. Have you ever heard him talk to the black communtiy about the black family. Come to Boston, and see how our community is wasting away. There is a shooting in Dorchester and Roxbury every week. young black men killing each other, but we have a black governor. This guy wouldn’t have won re-election in a normal state. I rarely go into those places anymore, cus I like myself. It’s the same in every black neighborhood across this country, yet you people for liberals who tell you what you want to hear. It is the white man and the rich who are holding you down.

Anyway…no need to get into all that nonsense. You can keep practicing the ostrich strategy. Just bury ur head in the sand. That’s par for the course for you liberals and ur messiah.
X-3

Harry Flashman said:
Nacho said: “Says the baby killer…” Funny how the left, with their vociferous support of abortion, can call anyone baby killers. Isn’t it?

EXCELLENT point. You’ll get no justification from the lefties on that one; for one thing Mr. West is NOT a baby killer (the left just likes to paint ALL military people that way) and abortion is MURDER, no matter how you say it.
X-3

Chudi said:
Anyway…no need to get into all that nonsense. You can keep practicing the ostrich strategy. Just bury ur head in the sand. That’s par for the course for you liberals and ur messiah.

Thank you!
X-3

Cobra said:
I’m a Black man, too.

And CLEARLY a professional victim. Cobra, you’re a waste of a heart and two lungs.
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

Chudi said:
Hey moron,

the reason I didn’t mention Colin Powell is because we are talking about West.

No…here’s what you SAID:

Chudi said:
I wonder who urs are…Tupac, Snoop, or is it Al Sharpton and Jesse. Oh I forgot, it’s the messiah…Yes.

YOU brought up people who were NOT Allen West. YOUR WORDS, Chudi. YOU opened the doors for other examples of “Black role models.” YOU. Take responsibility for your own words.

Chudi said:
Yes, i mentioned ur messiah, but i disqualify him because he doesn’t tell black people the truth. He only says it when it suits him for purposes of re-election. I remember when i used to think the man was worth anything, when he went before the a black group, i forget which one now, and talked about absent black fathers and how we need to take care of our families. That was when i thought he was worth something, now I realize that was a bait and switch so that white people could see him, and think he was independent and beholden to the black orthodoxy. He got into office, and became just like Sharpton and jesse.

Use the common sense God gave you and read back what you said, and understand it has NO BEARING IN REALITY.
If you won’t read Obama’s memoir, “Dreams of My Father”, then at least listen to the man speak to that “black group”….Father’s Day 2008 : Apostolic Church, South Side of Chicago..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj1hCDjwG6M

Or the 2004 Democratic Convention Keynote Speech, where he obliterates the “Black student/acting white” mythology;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awQkJNVsgKM

Or on education on Iowa Public Television 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA0zSZekY_c

But you won’t watch ANY of these videos…or read text from those speeches. No you won’t , Chudi. From your own words, you’ve been bamboozled, hoodwinked and hornswoggled. I say you have because on one hand you CLAIM to want the “progression of our people”, while on the other hand you VICIOUSLY malign President Obama, who has progessed to the highest political position on the planet?

Don’t get me wrong, Chudi. I’m not claiming you can’t criticize President Obama. I do so myself from time to time. But if you can’t acknowledge the achievement, recognize his history/background and hear his message to young people, particularly African-Americans on education, hard work and pursuit of excellence, you’ve been hoodwinked and hornswoggled by a phalanx of right winged negrophobic hate speech that compels you to reflexively HATE anything Black that doesn’t pledge allegiance to the RNC.

You’re cast adrift on a churning sea whipped by the winds of reactionary backlash and xenophobia. I’m trying to help you…but you have to HELP YOURSELF first, my brother.

–Cobra
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

X-3 said:
And CLEARLY a professional victim. Cobra, you’re a waste of a heart and two lungs.

And what are you supposed to be, other than another guy chirping insults while adding nothing to the conversation?

Is that supposed to be impressive?

–Cobra
TillieGlockenspiel

A wise friend once said to me, “Do you know how they choose fighting bulls? They look at the mothers, because that is where they get their courage, their heart.” A father can teach a young man HOW to fight, but a mother teaches him WHY he fights and what he should fight FOR!

West/Ryan 2012
wickerchino

I’m a regular guy. I’m sick to death of feminism. I don’t buy into the ball-busting, demasculating Palin rhetoric “I’m more of a man than you are. Fight like girls” and acting like girls are better than guys, and I also think, you know, that a woman should do whatever they want to do in life. They shouldn’t feel like they have to conform to a certain role. A lot of them have a career and a family. Palin works outside the home. If they’re single, power to them. Just, they should do whatever they want in life, including if they want to be homemaker.
wickerchino

Another thing I’d like to say, what’s so freaking great about the Spartans? They loved war, big whoop. The Persians had an advanced civilization and conquered a good portion of the known world, but I don’t see them getting all this credit.
Why is 300 that movie Republicans love so much? Liked it at first, but it gets dull after a few times, and there are other movies out there.
There are other, good movies out there.
There are better movies out there.
It came out in 2007. Can’t the Republicans pick another blockbuster to embrace now?
It’s not the next Godfather.
wickerchino

I mean, the Spartans would kill babies that were deformed at birth. How does that sit with you if you’re pro-life?
If Bush was supposed to be Leonidas, why isn’t Bush supposed to be the big hero now?
I don’t feel the need to prove how macho I am.
You know, the Assyrians were another very warlike group of people.
Chudi

wickerchino said:
Another thing I’d like to say, what’s so freaking great about the Spartans? They loved war, big whoop. The Persians had an advanced civilization and conquered a good portion of the known world, but I don’t see them getting all this credit.
Why is 300 that movie Republicans love so much? Liked it at first, but it gets dull after a few times, and there are other movies out there.
There are other, good movies out there.
There are better movies out there.
It came out in 2007. Can’t the Republicans pick another blockbuster to embrace now?
It’s not the next Godfather.

Stupidity really has no cure. of course he was talking about the movie.
Chudi

Cobra said:
Don’t get me wrong, Chudi. I’m not claiming you can’t criticize President Obama. I do so myself from time to time. But if you can’t acknowledge the achievement, recognize his history/background and hear his message to young people, particularly African-Americans on education, hard work and pursuit of excellence, you’ve been hoodwinked and hornswoggled by a phalanx of right winged negrophobic hate speech that compels you to reflexively HATE anything Black that doesn’t pledge allegiance to the RNC.

You’re cast adrift on a churning sea whipped by the winds of reactionary backlash and xenophobia. I’m trying to help you…but you have to HELP YOURSELF first, my brother.

–Cobra

Of course i have been hoodwinked and hornswoggled by the evil white man. How long are we going to acknowledge the messiah. He won the election, and then proceeded to mess up daily. But no…black people cannot criticize him, cus that was be going against his color. BS. Obama is president, and deserves to be treated like any president, which means that when he is acting like an idiot, we say he is acting like an idiot. I don’t need to acknowledge anything about him.

I actually think you people who don’t want people to criticize him are the racists. You think because he is black he cannot handle criticism. He’s the freaking president, he should deal with it. My issue with him is that he is incompetent, doesn’t care about anybody but himself, and is just all around a disingenious guy.

i think Allen is authentic. That’s the difference.
Pablo

Chudi said:
i think Allen is authentic. That’s the difference.

West has a track record of service to this country. Obama has a track record of service to himself. That’s another difference.
78Thomas

Not a big Allen West fan but his message was pretty clear. All the exceptions the articles author went into…consider the hairs of this issue split.
Pablo

Cobra said:
You’re spouting the same anti-black, right winged, Koch-Brothers-Think-Tank-approved talking points that I could find on Stormfront or Aryan Nation websites, yet you claim “we want to progress as a community?”

Darren, will you ever grow up? Or are you destined to be a perpetual victim, because it feels so good?
Harry Flashman

garth said:

“Not at all. Abortion is not killing babies but assholes like you like to make the comparison simply because you don’t know any better. Harry – you are an ignorant boob.”

Abortion is not killing babies?

That tiny human with fingers and toes and human DNA and a heart pumping blood through its body isn’t a baby?

Keep telling yourself that.

I ask…what is it then? If it is not a human baby, what is it? Of course, you won’t answer. You’ll either sneer and insult or avoid the question. Or you’ll say, “It’s a fetus.” I’ll head that one off at the pass. Look up “fetus”.

You people on the left are disgusting in your mindless defense of murder.
mediadoubt

More to the point, Sparta was a brutal culture that propogated abuses up and down the social pecking order, rendering non-soldierly Helots as near-slaves and slaves as, well, slaves.

Their supremacy among Greek city-states was extremely brief (about 25 years); they were broken in a single battle; and eventually absorbed into the Achaean League.

Perhaps in total context such an example appears less insane than it does here, but given West’s predeliction for blathergate, he probably didn’t even realize how preposterous this all sounds.

And that’s not even getting into the profound sexism of his assumptions.
Harry Flashman

By the way, Garth…..

I am many things but “ignorant” is not on the list. And I’ll tell you what I’ve told many far left fools – if you want to cross intellectual swords with me on the merits of the argument please feel free to do so. I welcome the opportunity to dismantle you.

If, however, you are unable to argue your side of the issue without name calling, sneering, mockery, and whatever else is in the table of contents of the Leftist’s Playbook of Shrieking Histrionics, then just – shut up and don’t reply directly to my comments.

Simple, really.
mediadoubt

David Patriot Lambertsen said:
Allan West is clearly a student of history and may well be today’s George S. Patton. I like his refreshing honesty especially when it comes to Islam.

You do realize that comparing him to Patton is calling him a paranoid-schizoid megalomaniac? Not that I disagree, or anything, I just thought I’d be sure that’s what you intended to convey.
mediadoubt

Cobra said:
LOL!! You’re so right. Every few years you get the “Great Black Hope of the GOP”…from JC Watts, to Colin Powell, to Condi Rice, to Alan Keyes, Hermain Cain…and now Allen West. They either never run for President, or do horribly in the polls.

–Cobra

I dunno. Powell could have been a contender. He just didn’t want the job.
Harry Flashman

mediadoubt said:

“You do realize that comparing him to Patton is calling him a paranoid-schizoid megalomaniac?”

Heh.

I don’t think that’s what he meant, but your point is amusingly accurate.
mediadoubt

X-3 said:
EXCELLENT point. You’ll get no justification from the lefties on that one; for one thing Mr. West is NOT a baby killer (the left just likes to paint ALL military people that way) and abortion is MURDER, no matter how you say it.

Sez you. According to the law of the land, it’s not. Putting the word in CAPS doesn’t make it truer. Get over it.
mediadoubt

TillieGlockenspiel said:
A wise friend once said to me, “Do you know how they choose fighting bulls? They look at the mothers, because that is where they get their courage, their heart.” A father can teach a young man HOW to fight, but a mother teaches him WHY he fights and what he should fight FOR!

West/Ryan 2012

How romantic. How twee. How nonsensical.
cjd ohio 1

mediadoubt said:
Sez you. According to the law of the land, it’s not. Putting the word in CAPS doesn’t make it truer. Get over it.

and the law of the land is always right huh?
mediadoubt

Harry Flashman said:
garth said:

“Not at all. Abortion is not killing babies but assholes like you like to make the comparison simply because you don’t know any better. Harry – you are an ignorant boob.”

Abortion is not killing babies?

That tiny human with fingers and toes and human DNA and a heart pumping blood through its body isn’t a baby?

Keep telling yourself that.

I ask…what is it then? If it is not a human baby, what is it? Of course, you won’t answer. You’ll either sneer and insult or avoid the question. Or you’ll say, “It’s a fetus.” I’ll head that one off at the pass. Look up “fetus”.

You people on the left are disgusting in your mindless defense of murder.

A fetus is a potential human being. So’s an ovum. Only time and luck will allow either one to make it to personhood. And the point at which a fetus transitions from potential to actual human (typically marked by the act of being born) is not a scientific or medical fact, but a societal decision.

Right now, the norm for personhood is “viability” — the ability of a developing fetus to survive outside the womb. And I’m OK with that; the law is OK with that.

You don’t agree? Too bad. Keep your disgust to yourself, because those who obey the law as it is consider your intrusion into the very private affairs of other people to be pretty disgusting in its own right.
mediadoubt

cjd ohio 1 said:
and the law of the land is always right huh?

No, but it’s a pretty darn good place to start.
Harry Flashman

mediadoubt:

You viability argument has more holes than a ten pond blck of Swiss cheese.

“Right now, the norm for personhood is “viability” — the ability of a developing fetus to survive outside the womb. And I’m OK with that; the law is OK with that.”

That’s a flat out butt-stupid statement. The “viability” is determined by who? The person or people deciding to abort it? hat’s ridiculous on the face of it.

By the way, I’ll address this and leave you to squeal about it:

“You don’t agree? Too bad. Keep your disgust to yourself, because those who obey the law as it is consider your intrusion into the very private affairs of other people to be pretty disgusting in its own right.”

That’s a pretty broad statement from someone who just posted several comments after he went through this article’s posts and cherry picked people to snipe at. I see seven posts of yours criticizing what others – who didn’t attack you directly – have to say.

Why don’t you take your own advice and keep your disgust for other’s opinions to your self? Oh, that’s right.

You’re a lefty. Your own rules don’t apply to you.

Have a nice day. I’m off to church.
Pablo

mediadoubt said:
A fetus is a potential human being. So’s an ovum.

You, sir, are an idiot.
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

mediadoubt said:
I dunno. Powell could have been a contender. He just didn’t want the job.

I agree that Powell would’ve made a better candidate than Bob Dole in 1996, BUT…as you notice, folks on the right here don’t talk about Powell anymore, except with contempt. Powell had the nerve to endorse Obama. Powell had the audacity to criticize Republicans and conservatives. In fact, even when Powell is OPENLY critical of President Obama, read what the conservatives here on Mediaite say about him:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/colin-powell-on-obama-he-has-lost-some-of-the-ability-to-connect/comment-page-1/#comments

Chudi said:
Of course i have been hoodwinked and hornswoggled by the evil white man. How long are we going to acknowledge the messiah. He won the election, and then proceeded to mess up daily.

Yeah, yeah…we get it. You want Bush back. You want job losses back at 700,000 a month just like Bush. You want the economy receding and not growing? Or you, as a
Black man, want Reagan, who campaigned against the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the Fair Housing Act of 1966?

Why did your guy West join the Congressional Black Caucus…a group made up of Black Democrats that hasn’t had a Republican since 1997? Tim Scott (R) SC (another Black Republican you don’t talk about) refused to join, saying “race no longer matters.”

Chudi said:
My issue with him is that he is incompetent, doesn’t care about anybody but himself, and is just all around a disingenious guy.

People who don’t care about anything but themselves don’t make good husbands, fathers or community organizers who don’t get paid well.

–Cobra
Yukon Jack

mamaearth said:
From the first day I heard Col. Allen West, while running for office in Florida, I thought to myself…”one day this man WILL be president!

I have never been more impressed with a candidate, as I am with this “hero among men!”

I hope that day comes in January 2013!

To bad that the American electorate, in its haste to show the world that they are not racist, and in a false hope to right the wrongs of slavery, rushed to elect the most unqualified pretender to be President, instead of waiting to elect a DESERVING black man, like Col. Allen West.
Yukon Jack

Cobra said:
LOL!! You’re so right. Every few years you get the “Great Black Hope of the GOP”…from JC Watts, to Colin Powell, to Condi Rice, to Alan Keyes, Hermain Cain…and now Allen West. They either never run for President, or do horribly in the polls.

–Cobra

You are, sadly, correct. Until African-Americans realize that it is the Democrats who keep them (well, at least a large portion of them) in perpetual poverty, while their vile and phony “spokesmen” like the poverty pimps Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are getting rich, things will not change.

People like Condi Rice, Allan West, Herman Cain – and many others – will be demonized and called derogatory names dripping with racism and hate.
Pablo

Cobra said:
Powell had the nerve to endorse Obama.

Right. It was a big judgment call and he got it wrong. I like Powell, but I wouldn’t put him in the White House.
Biscuit

Harry Flashman says:
April 23, 2011 at 3:51 pm
23 3
Nacho said:

“Says the baby killer…”

Funny how the left, with their vociferous support of abortion, can call anyone baby killers.

Isn’t it?

Yes, and we all know what FINE upstanding fathers and husbands American conservative males make, right?
They can’t even raise their own young properly. Later, boys.
Biscuit

X-3 says:
April 23, 2011 at 10:44 pm X-3(Quote)
8 0
Harry Flashman said:
Nacho said: “Says the baby killer…” Funny how the left, with their vociferous support of abortion, can call anyone baby killers. Isn’t it?

EXCELLENT point. You’ll get no justification from the lefties on that one; for one thing Mr. West is NOT a baby killer (the left just likes to paint ALL military people that way) and abortion is MURDER, no matter how you say it.

How come most wife beaters and child molestors are married, conservative males? How come the policies that lead to the DEATHS of WOMEN and CHILDREN around the world are supported by, conservative males?

You misgynistic hypocrites should shut your stupid yaps and START acting like better human beings. Grow up, dittoheads.
Biscuit

Why don’t you take your own advice and keep your disgust for other’s opinions to your self? Oh, that’s right.

You’re a lefty. Your own rules don’t apply to you.

Have a nice day. I’m off to church.

You’re a right-winger, God sees right through your hatred and ignorance. Yes, go to church, I’m sure your stupid, good for nothing feminazi wife is dragging you there.
Man Bites Dog

Frances Martel said:
implication that the mom must improve herself solely for the benefit of the male child is problematic.

What part of Congressman West’s statement gave you that impression? “Solely” ? I think you have overanalyzed.
tiredoftherunaround

ROFLAO!!!!

The Left’s hatred is so painfully obvious. The wordage they use tips off their what side of the politics they support long before they say so. Why can’t they post something that has facts instead of insults?

West was speaking of the importance of a mother’s influence on her children.and the heads just blow.

WEST FOR PRESIDENT 2012!!!!!
Man Bites Dog

mediadoubt said:
More to the point, Sparta was a brutal culture that propogated abuses up and down the social pecking order, rendering non-soldierly Helots as near-slaves and slaves as, well, slaves.

Then it’s a good thing that West’s point was simply that good, strong mothers tend to raise good, strong sons, not that the USA should become Sparta.
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

tiredoftherunaround said:
Why can’t they post something that has facts instead of insults?

OK.

“On the morning of August 15, 2007, Federal agents along with the Daytona Beach SWAT Team raided the Outlaws clubhouse on Beach Street in Daytona Beach, Florida[11] looking for drugs, weapons, contraband, paraphernalia, etc.; they tore the Daytona Beach clubhouse apart for the better part of the day and found nothing, but removed as many of the club’s pictures and any other possibly identifying information as they could find. Federal agents also raided a home in Ormond Beach and two other clubhouses around the state. The search of the Jacksonville clubhouses netted federal agents 60 weapons including pocket and kitchen knives. U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced a Detroit grand jury indictment of 16 of the Outlaws National Club’s members.[12] The Detroit grand jury indictment included various charges, including assault and drug distribution. Eleven Outlaws leaders and high-ranking members of the gang were arrested after a five-year investigation. The FBI said several gang members were charged with conspiracy to commit assault on members of the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club in Indiana.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaws_Motorcycle_Club

“Allen West is a monthly contributor to “Wheels on the Road,” a south Florida motorcycle magazine that frequently promotes the Outlaws and denigrates women. The Justice Department has said that the Outlaws produce and distribute methamphetamine, and engage in other criminal activities including arson, homicide, and prostitution….

…ALLEN WEST, WHEELS ON THE ROAD, & THE DENIGRATION OF WOMEN

Allen West is a monthly contributor to Wheels on the Road, a monthly motorcycle print and online magazine that promotes the Outlaws motorcycle gang and denigrates women. [Wheels on the Road website, accessed 10/15/10]

Articles in “Wheels on the Road” promote violence against women and referred to women as “oral relief stations.”

* From the October 2010 issue of Wheels on the Road, “Here are some of the things I have to deal with: Chicks telling me their knees hurt. Well you are an oral relief station on Nastopia and you should be happy only when your knees hurt. No get that red lipstick on and get back to being the best oral relief station on the block.” [Wheels on the Road, 10/1/10; Wheels on the Road website, accessed 10/15/10]

* From the October 2008 issue of Wheels on the Road, a contributor described women existing “to serve man.” He suggests that women wear “slave chokers” as accessories. [Wheels on the Road, 10/08]

* From the April 2010 issue of Wheels on the Road a contributor wrote: a 19 year old naked woman comes to his house wearing a sign that reads “If you catch me, you can have me.” He wrote, “Well before she could take a breath, I am off and running after her hot little ass. That naked little 19 year old only got 50 yards before I caught her and tackled her to the ground … Well I threw that hot little b—- over my shoulder and gave her a nice little spank on the butt, as I took her over to Club Nastopia to serve all my needs and desires for eternity. ..Me got naked 19 year old tied to brass pole!!!” [Wheels on the Road, 4/10]

http://blog.reidreport.com/2010/10/allen-west-responds-to-outlaws-story-but-set-to-appear-at-biker-rally/

Yeah, I suppose you need “strong, Spartan-like women” to serve as “oral relief stations” for biker gangs, huh Man Bites Dog?

And here’s a video report with West Speaking at a rally, where bikers confront a videographer apparently under orders:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz-xYu7cuoU

Forget Obama. THIS is the guy you want as President of the United States over every other REPUBLICAN?

Really?

–Cobra
Man Bites Dog

Cobra said:
Yeah, I suppose you need “strong, Spartan-like women” to serve as “oral relief stations” for biker gangs, huh Man Bites Dog?

Cobra said:
Forget Obama. THIS is the guy you want as President of the United States over every other REPUBLICAN?

Well’, I’m not in a biker gang so I don’t know what they need. But I think I know what children need, and that is good parenting. I don’t know who wrote the stuff you mentioned, but I don’t think it was West. I looked at the website for the WOTR magazine, and it seemed pretty innocuous on the surface, but I didn’t look that closely. Maybe someone should ask Mr. West about it. I think he would respond in a forthright manner. I don’t know at this point who I would vote for in the primary, and I never said I did. Perhaps you’ve confused me with someone else. what I said was very simple and direct, just as what West said was simple and direct.

Man Bites Dog said:
Then it’s a good thing that West’s point was simply that good, strong mothers tend to raise good, strong sons, not that the USA should become Sparta.
Man Bites Dog

Cobra said:
And here’s a video report with West Speaking at a rally, where bikers confront a videographer apparently under orders:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz-xYu7cuoU

I listened to the video (not much video, just audio), but I must have missed the part where West gave the order. I do know that the Ron Klein campaign was pretty dirty in releasing West’s social security number, and I heard someone mention that in the video. They also released Mrs. West’s state employee number. Maybe that’s why the West supporters didn’t want the videographer around.
Chudi

Cobra,

You are really pathetic. Exactly how long was Obama a community organizer? How many yrs? I guess all the people who go into Americorps after college can also run for president on that. You sir, are a koolaid drinker. I have found that talking imbeciles is usually a waste of time, so i am done with this discussion.
mediadoubt

Harry Flashman said:
mediadoubt:

You viability argument has more holes than a ten pond blck of Swiss cheese.

“Right now, the norm for personhood is “viability” — the ability of a developing fetus to survive outside the womb. And I’m OK with that; the law is OK with that.”

That’s a flat out butt-stupid statement. The “viability” is determined by who? The person or people deciding to abort it? hat’s ridiculous on the face of it.

By the way, I’ll address this and leave you to squeal about it:

“You don’t agree? Too bad. Keep your disgust to yourself, because those who obey the law as it is consider your intrusion into the very private affairs of other people to be pretty disgusting in its own right.”

That’s a pretty broad statement from someone who just posted several comments after he went through this article’s posts and cherry picked people to snipe at. I see seven posts of yours criticizing what others – who didn’t attack you directly – have to say.

Why don’t you take your own advice and keep your disgust for other’s opinions to your self? Oh, that’s right.

You’re a lefty. Your own rules don’t apply to you.

Have a nice day. I’m off to church.

You called for debate on the issues (“crossing swords,” IIRC), so let’s.

You may consider viability “ridiculous” as the criterion, but in real life, that’s how it plays out. Across the fifty states, abortion in the first two trimesters (up to 24 weeks, ordinarily considered pre-viability) is generally allowed. As you move into the third trimester, pregnant women, doctors, and the law “normally” become increasingly reluctant to abort except in dire cases. The medical community cannot pinpoint viability for all women (According to a Wiki article I’m looking at, “nearly all pregnancies are viable after the 27th week, and none are viable before the 21st.”), but the progress toward viability for individual pregnancies can be determined with acceptable precision.

As to who decides — norms referred to above notwithstanding — it is as all decisions about bearing a child should be made: by the woman, her doctors, and the people who care about her.

As to my “attacks,” you’re a little short of the facts. I’m quite aware of what I post here, and my practice is to comment on the media item that starts the topic (which you might, admittedly, see as an unprovoked attack on the subject of the post), but not to snipe back until sniped at. If in the body of a post or response I criticize some other poster or public figure, it’s always in context. And what the Mediaite board is supposed to be about anyway.

Besides, my disgust had nothing to do with your posting, but rather the implication that you — or anyone else — have a right to insert yourselves into the private reproductive choices of a person who doesn’t welcome your involvement: that’s disgusting.
mediadoubt

Pablo said:
You, sir, are an idiot.

You, fellah, are a thumb-fingered dolt.

Now that’s out of the way, you want to discuss what it was about my post that brought you to that conclusion? If it’s just because you disagree with my statement, but can’t come up with anything more cogent than an insult, then I recommend you go stand in a park and yell at the birds for shitting on your lawn.
mediadoubt

Man Bites Dog said:
Then it’s a good thing that West’s point was simply that good, strong mothers tend to raise good, strong sons, not that the USA should become Sparta.

Errr, context matters?
mediadoubt

Cobra said:
OK.

“On the morning of August 15, 2007, Federal agents along with the Daytona Beach SWAT Team raided the Outlaws clubhouse on Beach Street in Daytona Beach, Florida[11] looking for drugs, weapons, contraband, paraphernalia, etc.; they tore the Daytona Beach clubhouse apart for the better part of the day and found nothing, but removed as many of the club’s pictures and any other possibly identifying information as they could find. Federal agents also raided a home in Ormond Beach and two other clubhouses around the state. The search of the Jacksonville clubhouses netted federal agents 60 weapons including pocket and kitchen knives. U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced a Detroit grand jury indictment of 16 of the Outlaws National Club’s members.[12] The Detroit grand jury indictment included various charges, including assault and drug distribution. Eleven Outlaws leaders and high-ranking members of the gang were arrested after a five-year investigation. The FBI said several gang members were charged with conspiracy to commit assault on members of the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club in Indiana.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaws_Motorcycle_Club

“Allen West is a monthly contributor to “Wheels on the Road,” a south Florida motorcycle magazine that frequently promotes the Outlaws and denigrates women. The Justice Department has said that the Outlaws produce and distribute methamphetamine, and engage in other criminal activities including arson, homicide, and prostitution….

…ALLEN WEST, WHEELS ON THE ROAD, & THE DENIGRATION OF WOMEN

Allen West is a monthly contributor to Wheels on the Road, a monthly motorcycle print and online magazine that promotes the Outlaws motorcycle gang and denigrates women. [Wheels on the Road website, accessed 10/15/10]

Articles in “Wheels on the Road” promote violence against women and referred to women as “oral relief stations.”

* From the October 2010 issue of Wheels on the Road, “Here are some of the things I have to deal with: Chicks telling me their knees hurt. Well you are an oral relief station on Nastopia and you should be happy only when your knees hurt. No get that red lipstick on and get back to being the best oral relief station on the block.” [Wheels on the Road, 10/1/10; Wheels on the Road website, accessed 10/15/10]

* From the October 2008 issue of Wheels on the Road, a contributor described women existing “to serve man.” He suggests that women wear “slave chokers” as accessories. [Wheels on the Road, 10/08]

* From the April 2010 issue of Wheels on the Road a contributor wrote: a 19 year old naked woman comes to his house wearing a sign that reads “If you catch me, you can have me.” He wrote, “Well before she could take a breath, I am off and running after her hot little ass. That naked little 19 year old only got 50 yards before I caught her and tackled her to the ground … Well I threw that hot little b—- over my shoulder and gave her a nice little spank on the butt, as I took her over to Club Nastopia to serve all my needs and desires for eternity. ..Me got naked 19 year old tied to brass pole!!!” [Wheels on the Road, 4/10]

http://blog.reidreport.com/2010/10/allen-west-responds-to-outlaws-story-but-set-to-appear-at-biker-rally/

Yeah, I suppose you need “strong, Spartan-like women” to serve as “oral relief stations” for biker gangs, huh Man Bites Dog?

And here’s a video report with West Speaking at a rally, where bikers confront a videographer apparently under orders:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz-xYu7cuoU

Forget Obama. THIS is the guy you want as President of the United States over every other REPUBLICAN?

Really?

–Cobra

Well, the video pretty much tells you everything you need to know about West.
mediadoubt

Man Bites Dog said:
I listened to the video (not much video, just audio), but I must have missed the part where West gave the order. I do know that the Ron Klein campaign was pretty dirty in releasing West’s social security number, and I heard someone mention that in the video. They also released Mrs. West’s state employee number. Maybe that’s why the West supporters didn’t want the videographer around.

Just because they “didn’t want the videographer around” because they objected to West’s opponent’s tactics doesn’t actually give them the right to push the vidoegrapher around and repeatedly threaten him with beating.

That’s what you guys apparently don’t get: you think because you’re morally superior to the people you disagree with, you get to stomp the shit out of them. That doesn’t work. It’s downright evil. And it’s why sensible people despise dangerous nutcases like West — and his followers.
http://MsUnderestimated.com MsUnderestimated

Cobra said:
Yeah, yeah…we get it. You want Bush back. You want job losses back at 700,000 a month just like Bush.

Explain then why the unemployment was around 5% during Bush’s presidency?
Man Bites Dog

mediadoubt said:
Errr, context matters?

The context of Mr. West’s statement was a Women Impacting Nation conference. Women being good, strong mothers has an impact on the nation, I would think.
Man Bites Dog

mediadoubt said:
Just because they “didn’t want the videographer around” because they objected to West’s opponent’s tactics doesn’t actually give them the right to push the vidoegrapher around and repeatedly threaten him with beating.

In this, I agree. It seems that everyone at these events has a camera going all the time anyway (left and right). Let them record. But in referencing Klein’s tactics, I was just trying to provide some…context.

mediadoubt said:
That’s what you guys apparently don’t get: you think because you’re morally superior to the people you disagree with, you get to stomp the shit out of them. That doesn’t work. It’s downright evil. And it’s why sensible people despise dangerous nutcases like West — and his followers.

Utter bullshit. First of all, you don’t know me or my views on morality. Secondly, if we’re going to paint with the broad brush, I’ve seen far more videos of left on right hostility, and bullying, not to mention outright violence. I check out left leaning websites, watch MSNBC sometimes, and listen to liberal radio. From what I’ve seen, the media professionals on the left are far less civil than the right, and the left leaning commenters on blogs and fora are far nastier than the right. That is my experience.
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

Chudi said:
Cobra,

You are really pathetic. Exactly how long was Obama a community organizer? How many yrs? I guess all the people who go into Americorps after college can also run for president on that. You sir, are a koolaid drinker. I have found that talking imbeciles is usually a waste of time, so i am done with this discussion.

“In 1985, Obama moved to Chicago where he worked as a community organizer for low-income residents in Chicago’s Roseland community and the Altgeld Gardens public housing development on the city’s South Side. From June of 1985 until May of 1988, Obama was the director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), which gave him the opportunity to work with these low-income residents. It also gave him the opportunity to expand the project and watch it grow fruitfully. In the three years that Barack Obama Jr. was in charge of the Developing Communities Project, staffing numbers went from 1 to 13, and the annual budget grew from $40,000 to $70,000. Obama also is credited with starting a job training program, a college prep and tutoring program, and also beginning a tenants’ rights organization in Altgeld Gardens; all things desperately needed in the lower income sides of town.

Obama enjoyed the work he did with the communities in Chicago and did have some success with the programs that were implemented; however, he came to believe that in order to improve the lives of the people within the community – and any others, for that matter – there would need to be a change in the United States’ laws and policies. As a result, Obama decided it was time to return to school and pursue his law degree. He applied and was accepted to Harvard University in 1988.”

http://www.biographyobama.com/Barack-Obama-College-and-Professional-Life.php

What salary did he receive for this work, Chudi?

Jerry Kellman is the man who hired Obama as an organizer for the Developing Communities Project in 1985 at a salary of $10,000 a year. Obama’s job: find out what people needed, be it job training programs, asbestos removal or potholes filled, and help them work together to get action from their elected officials.

The South Side Chicago area was devastated by factory closings and pollution, Kellman says, and people were discouraged by poverty and discrimination. “They had to be motivated to come out and try again and work with people they didn’t necessarily see eye to eye with and maybe didn’t even like,” he says. He says Obama interviewed them, helped them strategize and “brought out their gifts.”

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-04-community_N.htm

Yeah, Chudi. President Obama, a man you claim “cares about nothing but himself”, delayed reaping the benefits of a being Black with an Ivy League degree in 1985 NYC (he could wrote his own ticket for big cash) to make $10,000 a year in the slums of the South Side of Chicago.

But…Obama’s a Black Democrat, which means he and the other 90% of African-Americans who register as Democrats are subject to your scorn, contempt and hatred.

“uplift our people”….Chudi PLEASE. You just clap like a circus seal for whatever rotten fish the Koch Brothers/Rupert Murdoch cabal tosses you. I’m waiting for your “David Duke in 2012″ posts.

MsUnderestimated said:
Explain then why the unemployment was around 5% during Bush’s presidency?

January 2001- First month of President Bush: 4.2%
January 2009- Last month of President Bush: 7.6%

You were saying something?

–Cobra
Man Bites Dog

mediadoubt said:
That’s what you guys apparently don’t get: you think because you’re morally superior to the people you disagree with, you get to stomp the shit out of them.

That’s what you guys apparently don’t get: you think because you’re morally superior to the people you disagree with, you get to insult them and characterize them as evil, crazy and/or stupid.

Like this:

mediadoubt said:
And it’s why sensible people despise dangerous nutcases like West — and his followers.

mediadoubt said:
That doesn’t work. It’s downright evil

Yes it is.
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

Man Bites Dog said:
Secondly, if we’re going to paint with the broad brush, I’ve seen far more videos of left on right hostility, and bullying, not to mention outright violence. I check out left leaning websites, watch MSNBC sometimes, and listen to liberal radio. From what I’ve seen, the media professionals on the left are far less civil than the right, and the left leaning commenters on blogs and fora are far nastier than the right. That is my experience.

You’ve been civil to me here, and I’ll return the favor. Scroll through Mediaite’s message board. Look out the comments of posters such as “notsofast”, “Gordon Blower”, “Mr. Papshmer” and any host of other conservatives on this site. Don’t make a cursory glance, I mean…read a posting thread from start to finish on the topic of your choice. If you can honestly make that same statement afterward, I’ll concede the point to you. Deal?

–Cobra
http://www.facebook.com/people/Joseph-Glackin/100000892011713 Joseph Glackin

What bothers me is that the last time the virtues of Sparta were presented as a national ideal, the people doing so were building an “Aryan Nation” and planning for a “master race.”
Leni Riefenstahl made a movie about it called, “Triumph of the Will.”
mediadoubt

Man Bites Dog said:
In this, I agree. It seems that everyone at these events has a camera going all the time anyway (left and right). Let them record. But in referencing Klein’s tactics, I was just trying to provide some…context.

Utter bullshit. First of all, you don’t know me or my views on morality. Secondly, if we’re going to paint with the broad brush, I’ve seen far more videos of left on right hostility, and bullying, not to mention outright violence. I check out left leaning websites, watch MSNBC sometimes, and listen to liberal radio. From what I’ve seen, the media professionals on the left are far less civil than the right, and the left leaning commenters on blogs and fora are far nastier than the right. That is my experience.

And my experience is 180 degrees different. Hmmm.
mediadoubt

Man Bites Dog said:
That’s what you guys apparently don’t get: you think because you’re morally superior to the people you disagree with, you get to insult them and characterize them as evil, crazy and/or stupid.

Like this:

Yes it is.

And West’s fans at that rally *weren’t* evil? And the hundreds of posters here who don’t have a clue what Marxism or Socialism are calling Obama a Marxist and a Socialist *isn’t* stupid? And the poster a few pages above calling for treason trials for everybody who didn’t prevent Clinton from becoming president *isn’t* crazy?

I don’t know you personally but I’ve got a shoe that’ll fit most of your buddies around here — and by extension to the entire right wing.
mediadoubt

MsUnderestimated said:
Explain then why the unemployment was around 5% during Bush’s presidency?

Yeah, until the economy fell off a cliff in late 2007 — handing Obama the worst economic situation that any incoming president has ever faced. The rates weren’t as bad as they might have been during the Bush Administration because the ticking time bomb — to which Bush added a lot of TNT, hadn’t blown up yet.
Man Bites Dog

Cobra said:
Deal?

Deal. And I’ll get back to you on it. But I am talking about the whole blogosphere, left and right, at least the portion I’ve experienced, not only Mediaite. This place is actually rather tame, although I’ve already noticed a few characters in the short time I’ve been commenting here. Nacho comes to mind.
Man Bites Dog

mediadoubt said:
And West’s fans at that rally *weren’t* evil?

Were they Evil? I don’t think so.If you believe they were, then all the similar and far worse stuff we’ve seen from the left is also evil. Would you say that biting off a finger is evil? Disrupting Tea Party Rallies and trying toprevent them from expressing their point of view? Or disrupting speaking engagements at colleges so only one point of view can be heard? But evil is a pretty stong word. How about misguided, inappropriate, uncivil, maybe even wrong. I guess I reserve the term evil for other things. But the left does view the right as evil, and that justifies any slur, any tactic, any insult, any incivility, to anyone. Anything goes, ’cause we’re takin’down those evil nonhuman Rethuglicans/Contards/teabaggers.

mediadoubt said:
And the hundreds of posters here who don’t have a clue what Marxism or Socialism are calling Obama a Marxist and a Socialist *isn’t* stupid?

Might be stupid. I don’t know. Might be ignorant. Neither is a sin. Or maybe some believe that Obama is indeed a Marxist at heart, and you don’t. That is a disagreement, also not a sin or a crime.

mediadoubt said:
And the poster a few pages above calling for treason trials for everybody who didn’t prevent Clinton from becoming president *isn’t* crazy?

Idon’t know, I haven’t seen it. But I’ve been hearing for a long time about how Bush should have been impeached, and all those evil Bush administration people should be tried for war crimes. I say this: Bush is gone, and hopefully Obama soon will soon be gone too.
GJPinks

mediadoubt said:
Yeah, until the economy fell off a cliff in late 2007 — handing Obama the worst economic situation that any incoming president has ever faced. The rates weren’t as bad as they might have been during the Bush Administration because the ticking time bomb — to which Bush added a lot of TNT, hadn’t blown up yet.

No, the economy fell off the cliff in 2008, a full year after the Democratics took over the Congress compounded with the Real Estate and Stock market melt down caused by Barney Fife, I mean Frank and A.G. Client #9.
GJPinks

Garth said:
Not at all. Abortion is not killing babies but assholes like you like to make the comparison simply because you don’t know any better. Harry – you are an ignorant boob.

Try that excuse if you break an eagle egg.
mediadoubt

Man Bites Dog said:
. . . a variety of things . . .

My Q: And West’s fans at that rally *weren’t* evil?

Your A: Were they Evil? I don’t think so. If you believe they were, then all the similar and far worse stuff we’ve seen from the left is also evil. Would you say that biting off a finger is evil? Disrupting Tea Party Rallies and trying to prevent them from expressing their point of view? Or disrupting speaking engagements at colleges so only one point of view can be heard? But evil is a pretty stong word. How about misguided, inappropriate, uncivil, maybe even wrong. I guess I reserve the term evil for other things. But the left does view the right as evil, and that justifies any slur, any tactic, any insult, any incivility, to anyone. Anything goes, ’cause we’re takin’down those evil nonhuman Rethuglicans/Contards/teabaggers.

My Response: Yeah, West’s fans were evil. Their behavior is the sort of political thuggery that — when it gets out of hand — can bring down a nation. Threatening a fellow citizen (convincingly) with violence for exercising his rights. Very dangerous. I don’t know about the finger-biting incident you refer to, but it might be evil, too. Disrupting rallies is definitely uncivil, but doesn’t rise (IMO) to the level of evil. But I’d draw your attention to the hundreds of disrupted Town Hall meetings in 2009 and 2010 where Tea Party adherents prevented any issue but their own from being addressed, and often prevented any issue being discussed at all because they wrecked the meetings in toto. This is not good for America. On the other hand, counter-demonstrations are an American tradition so it’s hard to say for sure where the line gets crossed.

My Q: And the hundreds of posters here who don’t have a clue what Marxism or Socialism are, calling Obama a Marxist and a Socialist, *isn’t* stupid?

Your A: Might be stupid. I don’t know. Might be ignorant. Neither is a sin. Or maybe some believe that Obama is indeed a Marxist at heart, and you don’t. That is a disagreement, also not a sin or a crime.

My Response: OK, I’m willing to stipulate ignorance (which is curable) over stupidity. But if we’re both looking at a block of cheese and I say “That’s Cheddar” and you say “That’s a Volkswagen,” then we’ve got a bit more than “disagreement” on our hands.

My Q: And the poster a few pages above calling for treason trials for everybody who didn’t prevent Clinton from becoming president *isn’t* crazy?

Your A: I don’t know, I haven’t seen it. But I’ve been hearing for a long time about how Bush should have been impeached, and all those evil Bush administration people should be tried for war crimes. I say this: Bush is gone, and hopefully Obama soon will soon be gone too.

My Response: Here’s the quote (My mistake, it was in another thread): “You ran him [GHW Bush] out of office for your scumbag drug addicted immoral douche Clinton, then you trumpet Clinton and his NAFTA bullsh** which has done nothing but funnel millions of jobs and billions of dollars from the United States to Mexico and South America. All of you have had a hand in destroying this country and as such should, each and every one of you, be brought to trial for treason.”

Well, that meets my standards for crazy.

And while it’s true that Bush is gone, the stench of burned flesh surrounding his crimes still lingers. Heck, we still go after exposed Nazis today, when they’re in their 90s. I don’t necessarily buy an argument that says we should forgive and forget what Bush did merely because he’s out of office.

As far as Obama being gone soon, you may get your wish. The people get to decide in about 18 months. Then we’ll see.
mediadoubt

GJPinks said:
No, the economy fell off the cliff in 2008, a full year after the Democratics took over the Congress compounded with the Real Estate and Stock market melt down caused by Barney Fife, I mean Frank and A.G. Client #9.

Late 2007 with the housing crisis hitting the stock market; Lehman Bros bankruptcy in Sept 2008. Blaming Frank for the Wall Street collapse is beyond preposterous into the realm of the downright silly.

There was plenty of guilt to go around, including the 8 years of the Bush Administration when the notion of regulating Wall Street was widely regarded as an impediment to people getting rich.

How’d that work out?
Pablo

mediadoubt said:
You, fellah, are a thumb-fingered dolt.

Now that’s out of the way, you want to discuss what it was about my post that brought you to that conclusion? If it’s just because you disagree with my statement, but can’t come up with anything more cogent than an insult, then I recommend you go stand in a park and yell at the birds for shitting on your lawn.

Can you not read? I quoted you for a reason, which was the utter idiocy of the statement quoted.
Pablo

mediadoubt said:
There was plenty of guilt to go around, including the 8 years of the Bush Administration when the notion of regulating Wall Street was widely regarded as an impediment to people getting rich.

Really?
billwhit1357

Sounds like “mediadoubt” needs to get Obama’s penis out of his mouth!

Sen Allen West should run for the Oval Office in 2012 but says he will not. He is a Proven Leader and Patriot and he is a Born American with a REAL birth certificate. Obama has proven he is no Leader, certainly no Patriot, which he has also proved, and Obama cannot even show a REAL long form BC, but would rather let good military officers, men much better than he, men who have Honorably Served our Great Nation, go to prison because of Obama’s Childish Refusal to show his BC. After so much contraversy over his BC, I would think he would finally come out and say, “Here it is, not STFU!”, like any Normal Citizen of America would do. But not Obama! Why?

ALLEN WEST 2012! Or Trump, or Bachmann, or Palin, or anyone but the current IDIOT and NONAMERICAN, B. Hussein Obama!
Calvin

Man Bites Dog said:
From what I’ve seen, the media professionals on the left are far less civil than the right, and the left leaning commenters on blogs and fora are far nastier than the right. That is my experience.

Exhibit A
Calvin

Man Bites Dog said:
From what I’ve seen, the media professionals on the left are far less civil than the right, and the left leaning commenters on blogs and fora are far nastier than the right. That is my experience.

Exhibit A
mediadoubt

Pablo said:
Can you not read? I quoted you for a reason, which was the utter idiocy of the statement quoted.

That would be a bald-faced lie. You excerpted my post and called me an idiot without explanation. Your calling me an idiot doesn’t in actual fact make me one and your unwillingness or inability to address the content of my post suggests that you might be.

Put up or shut up.
mediadoubt

Pablo said:
Really?

Really. As I said, there was plenty of guilt to go around.
Pablo

mediadoubt said:
That would be a bald-faced lie.

What’s a lie? I quoted you making an idiotic statement, an I did so because it was so patently idiotic. Here, I’ll do it again:

A fetus is a potential human being. So’s an ovum.

I’ll type this slowly for you, since you’re clearly on the slow side: A-n o-v-u-m i-s n-o-t a p-o-t-e-n-t-i-a-l h-u-m-a-n b-e-i-n-g a-n-y m-o-r-e t-h-a-n a s-p-e-r-m-a-t-o-z-o-o-n i-s.
mediadoubt

billwhit1357 said:
Sounds like “mediadoubt” needs to get Obama’s penis out of his mouth!Sen Allen West should run for the Oval Office in 2012 but says he will not.He is a Proven Leader and Patriot and he is a Born American with a REAL birth certificate.Obama has proven he is no Leader, certainly no Patriot, which he has also proved, and Obama cannot even show a REAL long form BC, but would rather let good military officers, men much better than he, men who have Honorably Served our Great Nation, go to prison because of Obama’s Childish Refusal to show his BC.After so much contraversy over his BC, I would think he would finally come out and say,“Here it is, not STFU!”, like any Normal Citizen of America would do. But not Obama! Why?ALLEN WEST 2012! Or Trump, or Bachmann, or Palin, or anyone but the current IDIOT and NONAMERICAN, B. Hussein Obama!

Curious how many of these brainless nits equate support for the elected president with squirming on their knees with a mouthful of trouser snake. I think some psych grad student could probably get a thesis out of the phenomenon.
Pablo

mediadoubt said:
Really. As I said, there was plenty of guilt to go around.

That does not demonstrate the Bush Administration wanting to deregulate the sector in question, as you suggested. In fact, quite the opposite was true, and there were several primary defenders of the looters that crashed the thing, one of which was Barney Frank. THAT was a bald faced lie. The Bush Administration was warning of the coming problem and trying to act on it while Barney Frank insisted there was no problem at all.
Pablo

mediadoubt said:
Curious how many of these brainless nits equate support for the elected president with squirming on their knees with a mouthful of trouser snake.

It makes a bit more sense than the ridiculously moronic, yet newly popular Kochsucker meme.
mediadoubt

Pablo said:
What’s a lie? I quoted you making an idiotic statement, an I did so because it was so patently idiotic. Here, I’ll do it again:

I’ll type this slowly for you, since you’re clearly on the slow side: A-n o-v-u-m i-s n-o-t a p-o-t-e-n-t-i-a-l h-u-m-a-n b-e-i-n-g a-n-y m-o-r-e t-h-a-n a s-p-e-r-m-a-t-o-z-o-o-n i-s.

In exactly the same way that a fetus is a potential human, being so is an ovum: under the correct conditions, both might develop into humans. For the ovum, addition of complementary genetic material is one of those conditions. (It’s much more of a stretch to say the same thing of a sperm.)

The self-evident truth you seemed to think rendered my post “patently idiotic” actually turns out to be flatly wrong. I’m not surprised. Stating opinion as unassailable fact is pretty much your modus operandi.
Pablo

mediadoubt said:
In exactly the same way that a fetus is a potential human, being so is an ovum: under the correct conditions, both might develop into humans.

Nonsense. A human fetus is a nascent human being. Left alone, it will usually grow into a born person. An human ovum is a necessary component of a human zygote, but is not a potential human as the zygote is. It can never become a human without a number of things actively happening involving it. By itself, it can never be a human.
Pablo

You, sir, are an idiot.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Joseph-Glackin/100000892011713 Joseph Glackin

Pablo said:
Nonsense. A human fetus is a nascent human being. Left alone, it will usually grow into a born person. An human ovum is a necessary component of a human zygote, but is not a potential human as the zygote is. It can never become a human without a number of things actively happening involving it. By itself, it can never be a human.

According to you, a fetus is NOT a human being. Straddling the fence tends to put pales up your @ss.
You are, as usual 1/2 right. A fetus left alone will die.
To quote that tower of intellect you so admire, Pablo, “It can never become a human being without a number of things actively happening involving it. By, itself, it can never be a human.”.
glenn113

What’s sad is that Colonel West does not have any of the qualities of General and President Dwight Eisenhower. Who hast stated “There has to be compromises……The middle of the road is all of the usable
surface. The extremes, right and left are in the gutter.”
GnomeChomsky

mediadoubt said:
Curious how many of these brainless nits equate support for the elected president with squirming on their knees with a mouthful of trouser snake. I think some psych grad student could probably get a thesis out of the phenomenon.

@mediadoubt: First of all, thank you for fighting the good fight on this board, you along with Cobra and a handful of others (like BFD) are the only voices of sanity on Mediaite’s thug-infested board.

As for the brainless nits, there is a correlation between identifying Conservative and homosexual behavior. Look at men like Ted Haggard, Mark Foley and Larry Craig – all of them staunch Conservatives – all of them caught in a gay sex scandals.

Though in my opinion this subgroup of right wingers aren’t so much the “flaming” type of homosexual, but many seem to belong to that genus of situational homosexual that one finds in prisons. For them it’s not about “being attracted / loving the same sex” but it’s purely about power, power over another man; the way rapists crave power over a woman. Indeed, the pathology seems to extend from some deep-seated sense of powerlessness that right wing media instills in them.

That said, what I find remarkable about Allan West’s speech (which I’m surprised no one has mentioned) is how this one speech excerpt touches on so many characteristics found in Fascism.

As per Umberto Eco’s Ur-Fascism: 14 Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt, Alan West’s speech contains the following traits:

1) The Cult of Tradition – Alan’s use of ancient Sparta and Tea Party “family” values is what Umberto Eco clearly lays out as syncretic of fascism’s penchant for a cult of tradition.

9) There is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle – West’s use of Sparta is telling. This austere and militant society is to be respected and revered in West’s mind.

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak.

“A man who stands for nothing, falls for anything” – naturally Alan West and his cadre of supporters stand for something… what that something is.. (strong mothers? Who can be against that right??) …is never really clear, but the message is understood “I am strong; our enemies are weak.”

11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero.

West’s invocation of a mother’s charge “Come back with this shield or borne upon it” is heroic imagery, fit for “warriors” who need to “fight” their sworn “enemies.” Alan’s speech is an appeal to heroism, recruiting women into the Tea Party message.

12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters.

Ultimately one cannot talk about mothers and children without talking about sexual matters; essentially that is what this entire speech is about. West’s Tea Party isn’t some anti-tax Constitutional movement, but a psycho-sexual one as well as socio-political.

Indeed, one of the defining characteristics of fascism is that matters of family, children and upbringing become a matter of state (or in this case, party) importance – not individual important – which ultimately betrays these anti-choice hypocrites.

So when Tea Party members start wagging fingers about “collectivists” just remind them of West’s own collectivism.
sootsme

This whole argument is pretty much moot. For the last couple generations, America wouldn’t know a spartan if they slapped US on the butt. (Military excepted) Too bad, because Spartans, of any sex, are exactly what we need, and soon. The existing power structure is in “scorched earth” mode, implementing New World Bull er, Order, as fast as they can go, working to get as much in place as possible on the rare chance that the Citizens throw them all out in November. Throwing them out wholesale is our only chance to save America as we know it, and it is a slim chance, indeed, given our current state of affairs. The time for talking is about spent, folks… When our worthless dollar is ousted as the world’s reserve currency, the USA will assume 3rd world status in about 15 minutes. Is Anyone listening?
Pablo

Joseph Glackin said:
According to you, a fetus is NOT a human being.

Uh, no.

A fetus left alone will die.
To quote that tower of intellect you so admire, Pablo, “It can never become a human being without a number of things actively happening involving it. By, itself, it can never be a human.”.

A fetus left alone gets born, genius. Do you need me to tell you about the birds and the bees? Do you need me to to explain what “left alone” means?
lolitahaze

so the republicans finally got around to seeing “300″ then?
Tedderman

So, just how insane does Allen West have to be before his supporters see it? An Army officer who had not one supporter in the military at the time of his transgression. He’s angry at the system and he’s got the backing of the tea-party but nobody sane. How long does Mr. “my security clearance is higher than the president’s” have this platform, my guess, one term.
mediadoubt

Pablo said:
It makes a bit more sense than the ridiculously moronic, yet newly popular Kochsucker meme.

OK, then maybe a doctoral thesis.
mediadoubt

Pablo said:
Nonsense. A human fetus is a nascent human being. Left alone, it will usually grow into a born person. An human ovum is a necessary component of a human zygote, but is not a potential human as the zygote is. It can never become a human without a number of things actively happening involving it. By itself, it can never be a human.

By itself, it (an ovum) can never be a human. By itself, it (a fetus) can never be a human.

The fetus requires a substantial amount of “correct conditions” to reach birth, none of which comes under the heading of “left alone.”
mediadoubt

GnomeChomsky said:
As for the brainless nits, there is a correlation between identifying Conservative and homosexual behavior.

GnomeChomsky said:
That said, what I find remarkable about Allan West’s speech (which I’m surprised no one has mentioned) is how this one speech excerpt touches on so many characteristics found in Fascism.

Well, I don’t necessarily buy into your entire thesis — I think the homophobia/homophilia demonstrated here is more on the level of playground insults (tagging the object of your rage as “the other”), because the posters are emotionally immature. This is not entirely at odds with your explanation, but comes from a different point of view.

And yes, I’m with you on your identification of West as a soi-disant “Man on a white horse.” He has all the trappings. On the upside, the times aren’t right for his type of politician-thug, and he’s not exactly a political genius. He bears watching, but not an excess of concern.
http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

sootsme said:
This whole argument is pretty much moot. For the last couple generations, America wouldn’t know a spartan if they slapped US on the butt. (Military excepted) Too bad, because Spartans, of any sex, are exactly what we need, and soon. The existing power structure is in “scorched earth” mode, implementing New World Bull er, Order, as fast as they can go, working to get as much in place as possible on the rare chance that the Citizens throw them all out in November. Throwing them out wholesale is our only chance to save America as we know it, and it is a slim chance, indeed, given our current state of affairs. The time for talking is about spent, folks… When our worthless dollar is ousted as the world’s reserve currency, the USA will assume 3rd world status in about 15 minutes. Is Anyone listening?

Really? Spartans? THESE folks:

“When a baby boy was born, it was required that he be checked by the Gerousia (a council of leading elder Spartans) from his tribe to see if he was fit and healthy enough to be allowed to live. In the event that the baby did not pass the test, he was left at a place called the apothetai near Mt. Taygetus to die of exposure.”
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Agoge

Yeah!!! You righties are “against” abortion, would fight with both hands for the viability of the ovum and zygote, but praise Allen West’s endorsement of the Spartans, who practiced INFANTICIDE.
But wait…there’s MORE!

“At the age of seven, he was enrolled in the agoge under the authority of the paidonómos (παιδονόμος), or “boy-herder”, a magistrate charged with supervising education. This began the first of the three stages of the agoge: the paídes (roughly speaking, ages 7–17), the paidískoi (ages 17–19), and the hēbōntes (20-29); some classical sources indicate that there were further subdivisions by year within these classes.[1]

The boys lived in groups (agélai, “herds”) under an older leader. They were encouraged to give their loyalty to their communal mess hall known as the Syssitia, rather than to their families. Beginning at the age of 12 boys would be given only one item of clothing per year — a red cloak known as a Phoinikis. They also created beds out of reeds pulled by hand, with no knife, from the Eurotas River. Boys were intentionally underfed to encourage them to master the skills necessary to become successful at stealing their food. This was also meant to produce tall well-built soldiers rather than fat short ones. This let the boys become accustomed to hunger so that during a campaign hunger would not be a problem. They would be severely punished, however, if they were caught stealing. Only the heirs apparent of the two Spartan royal households (the Agiads and Eurypontids) were exempt from the process.”
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Agoge

Forced starvation and training on how to steal? Where are you “law and order” conservatives at on this?
But wait…there’s MORE:

“At around age 12 the boys would enter into an institutionalized relationship with a young adult male Spartan. Plutarch described this form of Spartan pederasty wherein somewhat older warriors would engage promising youths in a long-lasting relationship with a pedagogic motive. The boy was expected to request the relationship, which was seen as a method to pass on knowledge and maintain loyalty on the battlefield.”
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Agoge

LOL…Allen West, who’s on RECORD as being against Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, champions Sparta, a society that even NAMBLA couldn’t dream of.

You just can’t make this stuff up. I’m just surpised Frances Martel didn’t point this out in her article.

–Cobra
X-3

Biscuit said:
How come most wife beaters and child molestors are married, conservative males? How come the policies that lead to the DEATHS of WOMEN and CHILDREN around the world are supported by, conservative males?

That is an outright LIE. Go look at ANY police blotter in ANY city or town and you will learn that the overwhelming majority of domestic abuse cases occur in low income families. Low incomers are most often liberals because they’re welfare weenies and they vote 99.99% for Democrats. The same is true of child molestation and incest. If you want to get a clear (not as clear as it used to be because of the trend toward political correctness) of who commits crimes, send off to the Department of Justice for your “FREE” copy of “Crime in the United States.”